Service road - Can it be a driveway if serving multiple houses?

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Service road - Can it be a driveway if serving multiple houses?

Tagging mailing list
Hi

In the UK, Amazon Logistics are adding useful data from their GPS'd
delivery vehicles. Mainly highway=service as the last part of their
journey to a destination.

However, one of their contributors removed service=driveway from a
highway=service road. In the changeset comments they said it was because
it served multiple residential properties.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/76576604#map=19/51.33398/-2.27945

 From memory, it wasn't signed as private, but it appears to be
unadopted by the local authority (There are no raised kerbed pavements,
drainage or lighting). I'm assuming it's shared ownership.

For indicative purposes only. (The image is ten years old):
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3343975,-2.278377,3a,60y,185.39h,67.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5I6ruGYQsgQv4cC0iLM6SA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Personally I see no problem tagging this as a driveway even if it's shared.

Thoughts?

DaveF

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Re: Service road - Can it be a driveway if serving multiple houses?

Jez Nicholson
Personally, I would only call the short bits of tarmac that spur off that service road as 'driveways' because they each go to a single house. I'm sure that there are examples of shared driveways in the UK but I would consider them rare.

On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 1:52 PM Dave F via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi

In the UK, Amazon Logistics are adding useful data from their GPS'd
delivery vehicles. Mainly highway=service as the last part of their
journey to a destination.

However, one of their contributors removed service=driveway from a
highway=service road. In the changeset comments they said it was because
it served multiple residential properties.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/76576604#map=19/51.33398/-2.27945

 From memory, it wasn't signed as private, but it appears to be
unadopted by the local authority (There are no raised kerbed pavements,
drainage or lighting). I'm assuming it's shared ownership.

For indicative purposes only. (The image is ten years old):
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3343975,-2.278377,3a,60y,185.39h,67.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5I6ruGYQsgQv4cC0iLM6SA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Personally I see no problem tagging this as a driveway even if it's shared.

Thoughts?

DaveF

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Re: Service road - Can it be a driveway if serving multiple houses?

Philip Barnes
Sections of shared, non-public service road, are certainly a common feature of modern housing developments.

I have considered them to be private driveways.

Private does not require a sign, walk down any suburban street in Europe or North America and you will see hundreds of driveways, without signs or gates and nobody will assume there is a public right of way there.

Phil (trigpoint)

On Tuesday, 5 November 2019, Jez Nicholson wrote:

> Personally, I would only call the short bits of tarmac that spur off that
> service road as 'driveways' because they each go to a single house. I'm
> sure that there are examples of shared driveways in the UK but I would
> consider them rare.
>
> On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 1:52 PM Dave F via Tagging <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi
> >
> > In the UK, Amazon Logistics are adding useful data from their GPS'd
> > delivery vehicles. Mainly highway=service as the last part of their
> > journey to a destination.
> >
> > However, one of their contributors removed service=driveway from a
> > highway=service road. In the changeset comments they said it was because
> > it served multiple residential properties.
> >
> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/76576604#map=19/51.33398/-2.27945
> >
> >  From memory, it wasn't signed as private, but it appears to be
> > unadopted by the local authority (There are no raised kerbed pavements,
> > drainage or lighting). I'm assuming it's shared ownership.
> >
> > For indicative purposes only. (The image is ten years old):
> >
> > https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3343975,-2.278377,3a,60y,185.39h,67.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5I6ruGYQsgQv4cC0iLM6SA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
> >
> > Personally I see no problem tagging this as a driveway even if it's shared.
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > DaveF
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Tagging mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> >
>

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Re: Service road - Can it be a driveway if serving multiple houses?

John Sturdy
I think of a driveway as typically leading to only one house, and would generally call the shared ones something else, probably "service roads".  I'd make an exception for the access to a pair of houses e.g. semi-detached, or adjacent but linked by their garages/carports.

__John

On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 2:26 PM Philip Barnes <[hidden email]> wrote:
Sections of shared, non-public service road, are certainly a common feature of modern housing developments.

I have considered them to be private driveways.

Private does not require a sign, walk down any suburban street in Europe or North America and you will see hundreds of driveways, without signs or gates and nobody will assume there is a public right of way there.

Phil (trigpoint)

On Tuesday, 5 November 2019, Jez Nicholson wrote:
> Personally, I would only call the short bits of tarmac that spur off that
> service road as 'driveways' because they each go to a single house. I'm
> sure that there are examples of shared driveways in the UK but I would
> consider them rare.
>
> On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 1:52 PM Dave F via Tagging <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi
> >
> > In the UK, Amazon Logistics are adding useful data from their GPS'd
> > delivery vehicles. Mainly highway=service as the last part of their
> > journey to a destination.
> >
> > However, one of their contributors removed service=driveway from a
> > highway=service road. In the changeset comments they said it was because
> > it served multiple residential properties.
> >
> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/76576604#map=19/51.33398/-2.27945
> >
> >  From memory, it wasn't signed as private, but it appears to be
> > unadopted by the local authority (There are no raised kerbed pavements,
> > drainage or lighting). I'm assuming it's shared ownership.
> >
> > For indicative purposes only. (The image is ten years old):
> >
> > https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3343975,-2.278377,3a,60y,185.39h,67.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5I6ruGYQsgQv4cC0iLM6SA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
> >
> > Personally I see no problem tagging this as a driveway even if it's shared.
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > DaveF
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Tagging mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> >
>

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Re: Service road - Can it be a driveway if serving multiple houses?

Paul Allen
On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 at 14:54, John Sturdy <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think of a driveway as typically leading to only one house,

Usually.  There are exceptions, such as where there's a gateway to a drive that was
originally for a single house but a new house was later built on the grounds.
 
and would generally call the shared ones something else, probably "service roads"

Or even a residential road.  There are housing estates near me where that is a better
fit than service road.  A service road is a means to an end: public road network at one end,
a single house or smaller cluster of houses at the other.  When there are houses all the
way along it, that's a residential road (in my opinion).  It's a grey area.

.  I'd make an exception for the access to a pair of houses e.g. semi-detached, or adjacent but linked by their garages/carports.

Yeah, that's another exception.  There's a few like that near me.  Housing estate, residential
road, shared driveway to the garages.

--
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Re: Service road - Can it be a driveway if serving multiple houses?

dieterdreist
I’d like to add gated communities: these are completely private settlements, with restricted access, but there is still a road hierarchy that may merit more distinction than just service with and without a driveway qualifier (i.e. we’ll usually solve these with access restrictions).

For me a driveway is either a service on private ground leading to just one house (or maybe duplex/apartment house or other residential building) or to the backstage area of a commercial place like the loading zone of a supermarket. When roads are leading to several properties I would use at least service without the driveway qualifier, or residential.

Cheers Martin
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Re: Service road - Can it be a driveway if serving multiple houses?

brad
I live in a single family home with a shared driveway.  The next door
neighbor house is 7 meters from my house.  The driveway is about 10
meters shared, then it splits, about 10 meters to each garage.    If it
were mapped, I think it should be tagged as driveway, but I don't think
it's relevant to map.

On 11/5/19 9:21 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> I’d like to add gated communities: these are completely private settlements, with restricted access, but there is still a road hierarchy that may merit more distinction than just service with and without a driveway qualifier (i.e. we’ll usually solve these with access restrictions).
>
> For me a driveway is either a service on private ground leading to just one house (or maybe duplex/apartment house or other residential building) or to the backstage area of a commercial place like the loading zone of a supermarket. When roads are leading to several properties I would use at least service without the driveway qualifier, or residential.
>
> Cheers Martin
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Re: Service road - Can it be a driveway if serving multiple houses?

Philip Barnes
On Tue, 2019-11-05 at 09:41 -0700, brad wrote:
> I live in a single family home with a shared driveway.  The next
> door
> neighbor house is 7 meters from my house.  The driveway is about 10
> meters shared, then it splits, about 10 meters to each garage.    If
> it
> were mapped, I think it should be tagged as driveway, but I don't
> think
> it's relevant to map.
>
A short driveway such as this is unlikely to get mapped, mine is very
similar although only to a single property. I live in a 70s/80s
development.

What I consider to be shared driveways, leading to 3 or 4 properties
are a feature of modern housing estates. Whilst mappers have tended to
ignore these as they are neither public or lead anywhere of interest
(not part of our usecase), after all UK mappers are mostly walkers or
cyclists. They are a big part of the usecase for the growing parcel
delivery sector, Amazon Logistics have been armchairing these at a rate
us local mappers find hard to keep up with. Often incorrectly as
residential roads.

I am now seeing that we need to map these correctly and use our local
knowledge to map them correctly before they are mapped incorrectly by
mappers who lack the experience of having seen these on these features
on the ground.

Phil (trigpoint)


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Re: Service road - Can it be a driveway if serving multiple houses?

Greg Troxel-2
In reply to this post by Tagging mailing list
Dave F via Tagging <[hidden email]> writes:

> In the UK, Amazon Logistics are adding useful data from their GPS'd
> delivery vehicles. Mainly highway=service as the last part of their
> journey to a destination.
>
> However, one of their contributors removed service=driveway from a
> highway=service road. In the changeset comments they said it was
> because it served multiple residential properties.
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/76576604#map=19/51.33398/-2.27945

I think a shared driveway is still a driveway.   That's why we call it
"shared dirveway".  The difference at some point between "shared
driveway" and "road in a subdivision" is perhaps in terms of the number
of houses, but in Massachusetts is very much about the land ownership
and the road being its own lot.

As for "signed as private", around me it is fairly unusual for
residential driveways, shared or not, to be signed "private" or "no
trespassing".  I'd guess 1 in 100, and maybe 1 in 20 of very long ones.
It's obvious to those who are paying attention what is a road and what
is a driveway, usually because width makes it clear, plus the lack of
road sign.  So I think mapping as access=private is appropriate even if
not signed, because on a driveway on private property the public does
not have a right of access, even if they aren't "trespassing after
notice".

If other people had tagged in driveway, and amazon removed it as part
of a large-scale paid edit, I think that's totally not ok.   If they are
just declining to add drvieway tags while putting in ways, that's fine.
I see large-scale paid edits as part way to mechanical edits, and think
they have to be more deferential than normal mappers.



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Re: Service road - Can it be a driveway if serving multiple houses?

Tagging mailing list
On 06/11/2019 18:04, Greg Troxel wrote:
>
> I think a shared driveway is still a driveway.

This is the crux. The only distinguishing attribute from what we'd all
tag as a driveway is that's it's shared.
A driveway is designated as privately owned rather than by the local
authority. It isn't defined by how many own it.

As Greg pointed out no one gave it a specific name in this thread. All
references were to it being a 'shared driveway'.


> If other people had tagged in driveway, and amazon removed it as part
> of a large-scale paid edit, I think that's totally not ok.

I'm unsure if this is a blanket policy of Amazon, I think it maybe just
this one editor.

> I see large-scale paid edits as part way to mechanical edits, and think
> they have to be more deferential than normal mappers.

I really think OSM as a whole needs to steer away from considering edits
based purely on their size as something to be fearful of. As long as the
data is accurate & improves OSM's database quality then it should be
welcomed.

With Amazon specifically, the data is coming from their GPS recordings &
is being gradually added. (Unsure whether the contributors being paid
makes any difference). Overall I'd say their edits contain the same
amount of errors as the average OSM contributor.

DaveF

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the nature of large-scale paid edits (was Re: Service road)

Greg Troxel-2
Dave F via Tagging <[hidden email]> writes:

> On 06/11/2019 18:04, Greg Troxel wrote:
>>
>> I think a shared driveway is still a driveway.
>
> This is the crux. The only distinguishing attribute from what we'd all
> tag as a driveway is that's it's shared.
> A driveway is designated as privately owned rather than by the local
> authority. It isn't defined by how many own it.
>
> As Greg pointed out no one gave it a specific name in this thread. All
> references were to it being a 'shared driveway'.

And I guess, if it's not service=driveway, how does one claim it it is
still highway=service?

>> If other people had tagged in driveway, and amazon removed it as part
>> of a large-scale paid edit, I think that's totally not ok.
>
> I'm unsure if this is a blanket policy of Amazon, I think it maybe
> just this one editor.

If it's just one editor, that's not a big deal.

>> I see large-scale paid edits as part way to mechanical edits, and think
>> they have to be more deferential than normal mappers.
>
> I really think OSM as a whole needs to steer away from considering
> edits based purely on their size as something to be fearful of. As
> long as the data is accurate & improves OSM's database quality then it
> should be welcomed.

Certainly; I didn't mean to suggest that edits that meet OSM's norms
should be unwelcome.

My point is that we have a lot of mappers and a set of norms (which are
pretty fuzzy and/or a bit contradictory).  We have rules about
mechanical edits (including imports), since they change things in a
large-scale systematic way.

When we have a very large set of edits that are under the common policy
direction of one entity, then that starts to have some of the
characteristics of mechanical edits.

We have had problems in Massachusetts with Amazon mappers removing
landuse=conservation (which has been deprecated world-wide by the
boundary=protected_area fans -- who *wrongly* think it has the same
semantics -- but landuse=conservation is very much in use in
Massachusetts, whose people are not vigorous wiki fiddlers).

So what I meant is that adding driveways that are actually there (which
by all accounts is what they are doing), tagging them as driveways, and
access=private, is all 100% great.

But, any removal of service=driveway from shared driveways, if under the
guidance of the organization, is not ok.  I am not aware of them
publishing their guidelines; perhaps someone in Amazon management will
speak up in this thread and point to where that is published.

> With Amazon specifically, the data is coming from their GPS recordings
> & is being gradually added. (Unsure whether the contributors being
> paid makes any difference). Overall I'd say their edits contain the
> same amount of errors as the average OSM contributor.

Being paid makes a difference because paid people do what they are told
by the people paying them.  So an edit with 1000 paid mappers has a very
significant aspect of a mecchanical edit.

When the the guidance is "add driveways that we know exist from GPS, and
tag them highway=service service=driveway access=private", then
everything is fvine, because that's what a normal mapper who had the GPS
data and the inclination to spend time on it would do.

So I'm not opposed to large-scale paid editing; i just think it needs
some caution and that the guidance to paid mapeprs needs to be
published to the OSM community.

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Re: the nature of large-scale paid edits (was Re: Service road)

Frederik Ramm
Hi,

On 11/7/19 18:19, Greg Troxel wrote:
> My point is that we have a lot of mappers and a set of norms (which are
> pretty fuzzy and/or a bit contradictory).  We have rules about
> mechanical edits (including imports), since they change things in a
> large-scale systematic way.

Yes. If you are a programmer and instruct your code to change all A's to
B's in OSM then it's a mechanical edit and rules apply (because much can
go wrong, aka "with great power comes great responsibility" etc).

And if you are a boss and instruct your 5000 employees to change all A's
to B's that should be treated similarly. That's why we have the
organised editing guidelines:
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Organised_Editing_Guidelines

> So I'm not opposed to large-scale paid editing; i just think it needs
> some caution and that the guidance to paid mapeprs needs to be
> published to the OSM community.

The guidelines request that, among other things, "if participants will
receive training material or written instructions, a copy of, or link
to, these materials" should be published.

Generally, if an organisation does not follow the guidelines and this
leads to problems, they should be held accountable & their edits are
liable to being reverted. Of course one would start with a friendly
pointer...

Bye
Frederik

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Re: the nature of large-scale paid edits (was Re: Service road)

Graeme Fitzpatrick
In reply to this post by Greg Troxel-2


On Fri, 8 Nov 2019 at 03:21, Greg Troxel <[hidden email]> wrote:
I am not aware of them publishing their guidelines; perhaps someone in Amazon management will
speak up in this thread and point to where that is published.

Or possibly someone from the DWG (?) could contact them?

Thanks

Graeme 

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Re: the nature of large-scale paid edits (was Re: Service road)

Clifford Snow
Every time I've contacted one of the Amazon's team, they have responded and taken responsibility to update their edits. We should first try to contact them before going through DWG.

This thread shows the number of opinions on how to map service roads. BTW my driveway is a shared driveway. I've mapped it as a driveway.

Best,
Clifford

On Thu, Nov 7, 2019 at 1:17 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Fri, 8 Nov 2019 at 03:21, Greg Troxel <[hidden email]> wrote:
I am not aware of them publishing their guidelines; perhaps someone in Amazon management will
speak up in this thread and point to where that is published.

Or possibly someone from the DWG (?) could contact them?

Thanks

Graeme 
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Re: the nature of large-scale paid edits (was Re: Service road)

Graeme Fitzpatrick


On Fri, 8 Nov 2019 at 07:34, Clifford Snow <[hidden email]> wrote:
Every time I've contacted one of the Amazon's team, they have responded and taken responsibility to update their edits. We should first try to contact them before going through DWG.

I certainly didn't mean to come on heavy, just a friendly "Hi, this has been happening - do you have guidelines for your staff? If so, could you please share them with us"

This thread shows the number of opinions on how to map service roads.

I've just been having a conversation with someone who thought that named streets in an industrial estate should be service roads as they wouldn't usually be used by the general public. That's a discussion for a separate thread though!
 
BTW my driveway is a shared driveway. I've mapped it as a driveway.

On the subject of mapping driveways - do people only map up to the front fence (especially in suburban areas), or all the way to the garage / house ie everything visible on aerial imagery?

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: the nature of large-scale paid edits (was Re: Service road)

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 7. Nov 2019, at 23:00, Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On the subject of mapping driveways - do people only map up to the front fence (especially in suburban areas), or all the way to the garage / house ie everything visible on aerial imagery?


I’m doing it occasionally, in theory I would expect these ways should be mapped, as they are there, depict the structure of the area, etc. but there are just so many that whatever I’ve done in this direction is still very few with respect to all that would have to be done. There are situations where I think it is more important (both, in dense urban areas the shared (among the residents) driveways to internal parkings and backyards and in the countryside longer driveways to places that are not directly on the road). The least interesting are those short ones from the garage to the street in single family detached housing estates, but still they create crossings with the sidewalk so there is some kind of relevance.


Cheers Martin
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Re: the nature of large-scale paid edits (was Re: Service road)

Clifford Snow
In reply to this post by Graeme Fitzpatrick


On Thu, Nov 7, 2019 at 1:59 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:
On the subject of mapping driveways - do people only map up to the front fence (especially in suburban areas), or all the way to the garage / house ie everything visible on aerial imagery?

I map to the garage to or in the case of a farmyard, to the general parking area since it's hard to tell which structure might the garage. I also don't map too many driveways, only when I feel like getting to the house a user might not know which service road to take. 

Where I've lived there are not that many fenced yards. But if I discovered a fence with a gate, I would most likely add the gate and extend the driveway to the garage.

In both cases I'm thinking about emergency services like fire and ambulances. I'm happy that amazon is adding so many. Maybe one day our emergency services will consider using OSM.

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Re: the nature of large-scale paid edits (was Re: Service road)

Warin
In reply to this post by Graeme Fitzpatrick
On 08/11/19 08:58, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:


On Fri, 8 Nov 2019 at 07:34, Clifford Snow <[hidden email]> wrote:
Every time I've contacted one of the Amazon's team, they have responded and taken responsibility to update their edits. We should first try to contact them before going through DWG.

I certainly didn't mean to come on heavy, just a friendly "Hi, this has been happening - do you have guidelines for your staff? If so, could you please share them with us"

This thread shows the number of opinions on how to map service roads.

I've just been having a conversation with someone who thought that named streets in an industrial estate should be service roads as they wouldn't usually be used by the general public. That's a discussion for a separate thread though!
 
BTW my driveway is a shared driveway. I've mapped it as a driveway.

On the subject of mapping driveways - do people only map up to the front fence (especially in suburban areas), or all the way to the garage / house ie everything visible on aerial imagery?

There is simply too much other stuff to do that be worried by every driveway. So I only map them where they are of some interest to other than the resident.


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Re: the nature of large-scale paid edits (was Re: Service road)

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by Clifford Snow



8 Nov 2019, 01:45 by [hidden email]:
Maybe one day our emergency services will consider using OSM.
Aready used in Poland (or maybe were used) due to problems with official data
(refusal to provide official road data to firefighters, datasets were disjoint on edges
of internal boundaries, outdated data made OSM a better source).

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Re: Service road - Can it be a driveway if serving multiple houses?

Paul Johnson-3
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On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 7:50 AM Dave F via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi

In the UK, Amazon Logistics are adding useful data from their GPS'd
delivery vehicles. Mainly highway=service as the last part of their
journey to a destination.

However, one of their contributors removed service=driveway from a
highway=service road. In the changeset comments they said it was because
it served multiple residential properties.

 Weird.  In the US, this happens somewhat regularly, and usually for some variation of a few reasons.

  • A landlocked lot has an easement on an adjacent lot for a driveway.  The owner of the adjacent lot has their own driveway off the easement to minimize landuse dedicated to the movement and storage of vehicles.
  • A flag lot, where the "pole" passes one or more lots that the neighboring landowners are getting easement from the flag lot owner to limit the overall landuse among all landowners dedicated to driveways.
Usually the more complicated the flag lot/landlocked lot situation is, the more likely the affected landowners are going to work with each other on easement to just limit the amount of land everyone loses to driveways.  For example here in Oklahoma, in situations where there's a landlocked lot between a landowner with frontage and a flag lot, the typical arrangement is for the flag lot to have a driveway, and the two other lots to have easement (even though the frontage lot has, well, frontage), with the frontage and landlocked lots sharing a wide driveway off the flag lot driveway.

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