Should we map things that do not exist?

Greetings.

Recently, a user mapped “razed” railways inside a construction zone (link below). These rails had been removed by our local mappers since they don’t exist anymore. Using the latest imagery (Maxar), you can see the rails have been completely removed from “Project 70”, a $1.2 billion Denver-area transportation corridor construction project.

I think this mapper has good intentions, but what is the point of mapping something that does not exist? Doesn’t this clearly contradict the OSM Good Practice wiki in regards the sections, “Verifiability”, “Map what's on the ground” and “Don't map historic events and historic features”? The last section states, "Do not map objects if they do not exist currently."

Should we tag (invisible) razed sidewalks? Should we leave (invisible) destroyed buildings in place, tag them as razed and then create new buildings on top of them?

https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=19/39.78016/-104.94562

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May 25, 2020, 06:37 by [hidden email]:

Greetings.

Recently, a user mapped “razed” railways inside a construction zone (link below). These rails had been removed by our local mappers since they don’t exist anymore. Using the latest imagery (Maxar), you can see the rails have been completely removed from “Project 70”, a $1.2 billion Denver-area transportation corridor construction project.

I think this mapper has good intentions, but what is the point of mapping something that does not exist? Doesn’t this clearly contradict the OSM Good Practice wiki in regards the sections, “Verifiability”, “Map what's on the ground” and “Don't map historic events and historic features”? The last section states, "Do not map objects if they do not exist currently."

Rails were removed - but is there embankment or something similar that makes clear

that railway line was there?

In cases of still present embankment it is a bit tricky what is border between "present" and "gone".

Note also that recently gone objects may be temporarily keep to prevent them from accidental

remapping - for example based on old memory or old aerial images.

But yes, something completely gone can and should be deleted from OpenStreetMap

(temporarily kept in way that marks it as gone if likely to be accidentally remapped).

Should we leave (invisible) destroyed buildings in place, tag them as razed and then create new buildings on top of them?

I do this to make people using outdated aerial images less confused. And delete them

once aerial images are updated.

I deleted object where people were either importing old objects, nonexisting objects unlikely

to be remapped by accident, supposedly existing old objects that were unverifiable.

> Should we map things that do not exist?

No, but remapping existing objects as "this is gone now" (building=yes -> demolished:building=yes)

is often a good idea.

But someone adding nonexisting railways, nonexisting buildings, historic boundaries and so on

should stop, and such additions be reverted.

(note that ruined buildings, ruined railways are mappable, just completely gone are not).

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[Jo-2]

Here in Belgium many of these are repurposed as cycling highway infrastructure. I wouldn't mind having highway=cycleway, railway=razed on them.

Polyglot

On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 1:47 PM Mateusz Konieczny via talk <[hidden email]> wrote:

May 25, 2020, 06:37 by [hidden email]:

Greetings.

Recently, a user mapped “razed” railways inside a construction zone (link below). These rails had been removed by our local mappers since they don’t exist anymore. Using the latest imagery (Maxar), you can see the rails have been completely removed from “Project 70”, a $1.2 billion Denver-area transportation corridor construction project.

I think this mapper has good intentions, but what is the point of mapping something that does not exist? Doesn’t this clearly contradict the OSM Good Practice wiki in regards the sections, “Verifiability”, “Map what's on the ground” and “Don't map historic events and historic features”? The last section states, "Do not map objects if they do not exist currently."

Rails were removed - but is there embankment or something similar that makes clear

that railway line was there?

In cases of still present embankment it is a bit tricky what is border between "present" and "gone".

Note also that recently gone objects may be temporarily keep to prevent them from accidental

remapping - for example based on old memory or old aerial images.

But yes, something completely gone can and should be deleted from OpenStreetMap

(temporarily kept in way that marks it as gone if likely to be accidentally remapped).

Should we leave (invisible) destroyed buildings in place, tag them as razed and then create new buildings on top of them?

I do this to make people using outdated aerial images less confused. And delete them

once aerial images are updated.

I deleted object where people were either importing old objects, nonexisting objects unlikely

to be remapped by accident, supposedly existing old objects that were unverifiable.

> Should we map things that do not exist?

No, but remapping existing objects as "this is gone now" (building=yes -> demolished:building=yes)

is often a good idea.

But someone adding nonexisting railways, nonexisting buildings, historic boundaries and so on

should stop, and such additions be reverted.

(note that ruined buildings, ruined railways are mappable, just completely gone are not).

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25 years ago, the Denver Stapleton Airport was closed and a new airport was built further from the city. Over 5,000 new homes were built, including schools, a library, a recreation center, over 150 shops, service businesses, restaurants and open spaces.

The opinion of some users is that if nothing had been built in place of the airport, if every trace of the airport had been removed and plowed under, then OSM users should not remove anything, but simply tag all buildings, runways, service roads, parking lots, etc., with the razed tag and leave it all on the map?

Why are railways given a special status? Why not tag sidewalks, buildings, and trees with the razed tag and leave them on the map? Why only keep railways as part of a historical database alongside reality-based mapping? Perhaps everything from the past that used to exist should be kept on the current map.

If something has been removed and there is still something on the ground remaining, then it makes sense to map what is actually there. But, mapping something in OSM that does not exist, except in someone's mind...why should it be on a map that is supposed to reflect the current situation? As the wiki states, "Do not map objects if they do not exist currently". 

In the given example in Denver the (well-meaning) mapper not only mapped non-existent rails, but non-existent switches as well. The switches do not exist. The rails do not exist. It's all imaginary.

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[Colin Smale]

On 2020-05-25 16:20, Jack Armstrong wrote:

Why are railways given a special status?

Nobody gives anything a status in OSM. Nothing is "approved" so nothing is "forbidden" either. It is either used, or it is not used. It is not even "forbidden" to use tags that someone has declared "deprecated".

 

Is there any case of a whole class of objects being removed from OSM on the grounds that they "do not belong"? Who would burn their fingers on that?

 

If we are looking to set a precedent for that it would probably be wiser to pick on a less controversial and emotive subject.

 

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May 25, 2020, 16:48 by [hidden email]:

On 2020-05-25 16:20, Jack Armstrong wrote:

Why are railways given a special status?

Nobody gives anything a status in OSM. Nothing is "approved" so nothing is "forbidden" either.

It is not really accurate - there is plenty of forbidden things (like running

imports without discussion, we have tags that are silently removed by

editors like iD and JOSM).

We have voted on tags that are described as "approved".

Even if "Nothing is "approved"" is true it does not mean that nothing is forbidden.

And other ways of giving various things various kinds of status.

It is not even "forbidden" to use tags that someone has declared "deprecated".

This is true.

 

Is there any case of a whole class of objects being removed from OSM on the grounds

that they "do not belong"? Who would burn their fingers on that?

Depends on what you mean by "whole class of objects".

 

If we are looking to set a precedent for that it would probably be wiser to pick on a less controversial and emotive subject.

 

We have precedent that entire classes and types of things are

out of scope.

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? should a highway never built in 2011, mapped, that goes through a farm still be there even if tagged 

 

right, and if not who has a right to remove it ?
 

Monday, May 25, 2020 10:10 AM -05:00 from Mateusz Konieczny via talk <[hidden email]>:
 

May 25, 2020, 16:48 by [hidden email]:

On 2020-05-25 16:20, Jack Armstrong wrote:

Why are railways given a special status?

Nobody gives anything a status in OSM. Nothing is "approved" so nothing is "forbidden" either.

It is not really accurate - there is plenty of forbidden things (like running

imports without discussion, we have tags that are silently removed by

editors like iD and JOSM).

 

We have voted on tags that are described as "approved".

 

Even if "Nothing is "approved"" is true it does not mean that nothing is forbidden.

 

And other ways of giving various things various kinds of status.

It is not even "forbidden" to use tags that someone has declared "deprecated".

This is true.

 

Is there any case of a whole class of objects being removed from OSM on the grounds

that they "do not belong"? Who would burn their fingers on that?

Depends on what you mean by "whole class of objects".

 

If we are looking to set a precedent for that it would probably be wiser to pick on a less controversial and emotive subject.

 

We have precedent that entire classes and types of things are

out of scope.

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[Colin Smale]

On 2020-05-25 17:08, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:

May 25, 2020, 16:48 by [hidden email]:

On 2020-05-25 16:20, Jack Armstrong wrote:

Why are railways given a special status?

Nobody gives anything a status in OSM. Nothing is "approved" so nothing is "forbidden" either.

It is not really accurate - there is plenty of forbidden things (like running

imports without discussion, we have tags that are silently removed by

editors like iD and JOSM).

Doing imports without discussion more about the process, and less about the details of the result. An import can be declared "bad" for many reasons.

 

If iD and JOSM remove certain tags when they are encountered, that is different from removing whole objects.

 

We have voted on tags that are described as "approved".

 

Even if "Nothing is "approved"" is true it does not mean that nothing is forbidden.

Can you name one tag that is "forbidden"? Does that mean a standing instruction to all mappers to remove it whenever it is found, or a license to do a seek-and-destroy across the whole database? Or does "forbidden" not quite mean "may not appear in OSM"? "Frowned upon" possibly.

 

Is there any case of a whole class of objects being removed from OSM on the grounds 

that they "do not belong"? Who would burn their fingers on that?

Depends on what you mean by "whole class of objects".

Class, category, whatever... A subset of the objects in the OSM data with common characteristics.

 

 

If we are looking to set a precedent for that it would probably be wiser to pick on a less controversial and emotive subject.

 

We have precedent that entire classes and types of things are

out of scope.

Where is that written down? What classes and types of things have been declared out of scope? Any record of a transparent process that led to that?

 

 

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May 25, 2020, 17:34 by [hidden email]:

On 2020-05-25 17:08, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:

May 25, 2020, 16:48 by [hidden email]:

On 2020-05-25 16:20, Jack Armstrong wrote:

Why are railways given a special status?

Nobody gives anything a status in OSM. Nothing is "approved" so nothing is "forbidden" either.

It is not really accurate - there is plenty of forbidden things (like running

imports without discussion, we have tags that are silently removed by

editors like iD and JOSM).

Doing imports without discussion more about the process, and less about the details of the result. An import can be declared "bad" for many reasons.

 

If iD and JOSM remove certain tags when they are encountered, that is different from removing whole objects.

OK, though that is much narrower than "Nothing is "approved" so nothing is "forbidden" either."

claim.

We have voted on tags that are described as "approved".

 

Even if "Nothing is "approved"" is true it does not mean that nothing is forbidden.

Can you name one tag that is "forbidden"? Does that mean a standing instruction to all mappers to remove it whenever it is found, or a license to do a seek-and-destroy across the whole database? Or does "forbidden" not quite mean "may not appear in OSM"? "Frowned upon" possibly.

I would say that

"Does that mean a standing instruction to all mappers to remove it whenever it is found,

or a license to do a seek-and-destroy across the whole database?"

applies to several things (listed below).

Is there any case of a whole class of objects being removed from OSM on the grounds 

that they "do not belong"? Who would burn their fingers on that?

Depends on what you mean by "whole class of objects".

Class, category, whatever... A subset of the objects in the OSM data with common characteristics.

 

 

If we are looking to set a precedent for that it would probably be wiser to pick on a less controversial and emotive subject.

 

We have precedent that entire classes and types of things are

out of scope.

Where is that written down? What classes and types of things have been declared out of scope?

For example things that I immediately remember

- fictional objects

- blatantly subjective things like reviews, ratings

- mapping of private objects (location of my bed)

- mapping of moving objects (location of myself or a moving ship or plane)

- completely gone objects (for railways the question is when railway is fully gone)

- personal detail (ties into subjective ones) like "my favorite trees", or "towns I visited"

- objects on Moon/Mars and other locations outside Earth

there is more of that - listed here is what I immediately remembered.

> Any record of a transparent process that led to that?

Not sure if there was any formal process to establish that for

example we are not mapping fictional objects.

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I would say that anyone has right to remove such objects.

I am also unsure what would even be a correct tagging. never_existed:highway=*?

(sole reason for possible keeping would be danger of accidental mapping it, but

given that it never existed it should not appear on any aerial images)

May 25, 2020, 17:32 by [hidden email]:

? should a highway never built in 2011, mapped, that goes through a farm still be there even if tagged 

 

right, and if not who has a right to remove it ?

 

Monday, May 25, 2020 10:10 AM -05:00 from Mateusz Konieczny via talk <[hidden email]>:

 

May 25, 2020, 16:48 by [hidden email]:

On 2020-05-25 16:20, Jack Armstrong wrote:

Why are railways given a special status?

Nobody gives anything a status in OSM. Nothing is "approved" so nothing is "forbidden" either.

It is not really accurate - there is plenty of forbidden things (like running

imports without discussion, we have tags that are silently removed by

editors like iD and JOSM).

 

We have voted on tags that are described as "approved".

 

Even if "Nothing is "approved"" is true it does not mean that nothing is forbidden.

 

And other ways of giving various things various kinds of status.

It is not even "forbidden" to use tags that someone has declared "deprecated".

This is true.

 

Is there any case of a whole class of objects being removed from OSM on the grounds

that they "do not belong"? Who would burn their fingers on that?

Depends on what you mean by "whole class of objects".

 

If we are looking to set a precedent for that it would probably be wiser to pick on a less controversial and emotive subject.

 

We have precedent that entire classes and types of things are

out of scope.

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[Colin Smale]

On 2020-05-25 18:52, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

 

Even if "Nothing is "approved"" is true it does not mean that nothing is forbidden.

Can you name one tag that is "forbidden"? Does that mean a standing instruction to all mappers to remove it whenever it is found, or a license to do a seek-and-destroy across the whole database? Or does "forbidden" not quite mean "may not appear in OSM"? "Frowned upon" possibly.

I would say that

 

"Does that mean a standing instruction to all mappers to remove it whenever it is found,

or a license to do a seek-and-destroy across the whole database?"

 

applies to several things (listed below).

Is there any case of a whole class of objects being removed from OSM on the grounds 

that they "do not belong"? Who would burn their fingers on that?

Depends on what you mean by "whole class of objects".

Class, category, whatever... A subset of the objects in the OSM data with common characteristics.

 

 

If we are looking to set a precedent for that it would probably be wiser to pick on a less controversial and emotive subject.

 

We have precedent that entire classes and types of things are

out of scope.

Where is that written down? What classes and types of things have been declared out of scope?

For example things that I immediately remember

 

- fictional objects

- blatantly subjective things like reviews, ratings

- mapping of private objects (location of my bed)

- mapping of moving objects (location of myself or a moving ship or plane)

- completely gone objects (for railways the question is when railway is fully gone)

- personal detail (ties into subjective ones) like "my favorite trees", or "towns I visited"

- objects on Moon/Mars and other locations outside Earth

 

Objects with these characteristics cannot be (easily) identified in the data - they would need a human to judge on a case-by-case basis (except for the extra-terrestrial things, but you might have trouble defining their location in terms of WGS84 lat/lon anyway...)

 

Subjective data is by definition not independently verifiable, so that can go. Ratings are sometimes awarded by a recognised body (rather than by customers), and those ratings would IMHO qualify as independently verifiable.

 

 

 

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it was tagged (proposed), and asphalt.

 

 

Monday, May 25, 2020 11:56 AM -05:00 from Mateusz Konieczny via talk <[hidden email]>:
 

I would say that anyone has right to remove such objects.

 

I am also unsure what would even be a correct tagging. never_existed:highway=*?

 

(sole reason for possible keeping would be danger of accidental mapping it, but

given that it never existed it should not appear on any aerial images)

 

May 25, 2020, 17:32 by [hidden email]:

? should a highway never built in 2011, mapped, that goes through a farm still be there even if tagged 

 

right, and if not who has a right to remove it ?

 

Monday, May 25, 2020 10:10 AM -05:00 from Mateusz Konieczny via talk <talk@...>:

 

May 25, 2020, 16:48 by [hidden email]:

On 2020-05-25 16:20, Jack Armstrong wrote:

Why are railways given a special status?

Nobody gives anything a status in OSM. Nothing is "approved" so nothing is "forbidden" either.

It is not really accurate - there is plenty of forbidden things (like running

imports without discussion, we have tags that are silently removed by

editors like iD and JOSM).

 

We have voted on tags that are described as "approved".

 

Even if "Nothing is "approved"" is true it does not mean that nothing is forbidden.

 

And other ways of giving various things various kinds of status.

It is not even "forbidden" to use tags that someone has declared "deprecated".

This is true.

 

Is there any case of a whole class of objects being removed from OSM on the grounds

that they "do not belong"? Who would burn their fingers on that?

Depends on what you mean by "whole class of objects".

 

If we are looking to set a precedent for that it would probably be wiser to pick on a less controversial and emotive subject.

 

We have precedent that entire classes and types of things are

out of scope.

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[Mike Nice]

On Mon, 25 May 2020 08:20:03 -0600 (GMT-06:00), Jack Armstrong
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>Why are railways given a special status?

  One possible view is that railways were an early OSM data consumer.   In
many cases, OSM became the best resource to know current and previous rail
lines, and useful for cases to track down related historical artifacts,
plan for reuse based on slope, etc.    
 OSM did render all rail lines for a time (including razed), then stopped
rendering historical items.   OpenRailwayMap has taken over rendering, but
I'm not sure if they've started transitioning to OpenHistoricalMap as a
source of purely historical items.  
  It would be handy if there was a way to delete an OSM object "into
OpenHistoricalMap" with a checkbox.


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i would delete what i did, expanding on someone else edit, but what about something like a road

 

that was never built and was mapped 7 years ago, with an edit 1 year ago ?
 

Sunday, May 24, 2020 11:39 PM -05:00 from Jack Armstrong <[hidden email]>:
 

Greetings.

 

Recently, a user mapped “razed” railways inside a construction zone (link below). These rails had been removed by our local mappers since they don’t exist anymore. Using the latest imagery (Maxar), you can see the rails have been completely removed from “Project 70”, a $1.2 billion Denver-area transportation corridor construction project.

 

I think this mapper has good intentions, but what is the point of mapping something that does not exist? Doesn’t this clearly contradict the OSM Good Practice wiki in regards the sections, “Verifiability”, “Map what's on the ground” and “Don't map historic events and historic features”? The last section states, "Do not map objects if they do not exist currently."

 

Should we tag (invisible) razed sidewalks? Should we leave (invisible) destroyed buildings in place, tag them as razed and then create new buildings on top of them?

 

https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=19/39.78016/-104.94562

 

 

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[Warin]

On 25/5/20 2:37 pm, Jack Armstrong wrote:

Greetings.

Recently, a user mapped “razed” railways inside a construction zone (link below). These rails had been removed by our local mappers since they don’t exist anymore. Using the latest imagery (Maxar), you can see the rails have been completely removed from “Project 70”, a $1.2 billion Denver-area transportation corridor construction project.

I think this mapper has good intentions, but what is the point of mapping something that does not exist? Doesn’t this clearly contradict the OSM Good Practice wiki in regards the sections, “Verifiability”, “Map what's on the ground” and “Don't map historic events and historic features”? The last section states, "Do not map objects if they do not exist currently."

Should we tag (invisible) razed sidewalks? Should we leave (invisible) destroyed buildings in place, tag them as razed and then create new buildings on top of them?

https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=19/39.78016/-104.94562

Advise them to enter the historic railway into OHM ... or any historic object for that matter. This satisfies them that the object is mapped and frees OSM from it.

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Thanks. I'll try that.

From: Warin <[hidden email]>

Advise them to enter the historic railway into OHM ... or any historic object for that matter. This satisfies them that the object is mapped and frees OSM from it.

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then why are there tags ?

 

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Demolished_Railway

 

and if the platform posts are still there ?

 

Tuesday, May 26, 2020 4:52 PM -05:00 from Jack Armstrong <[hidden email]>:
 

Thanks. I'll try that.
 

From: Warin <61sundowner@...>

 

Advise them to enter the historic railway into OHM ... or any historic object for that matter. This satisfies them that the object is mapped and frees OSM from it.

 

 

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May 27, 2020, 01:40 by [hidden email]:

then why are there tags ?

 

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Demolished_Railway

 

and if the platform posts are still there ?

 

Tuesday, May 26, 2020 4:52 PM -05:00 from Jack Armstrong <[hidden email]>:

 

Thanks. I'll try that.

 

From: Warin <<a href="javascript:void(0)">61sundowner@...>

 

Advise them to enter the historic railway into OHM ... or any historic object for that matter. This satisfies them that the object is mapped and frees OSM from it.

 

 

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(1) sorry for an empty email send earlier

(2) we have plenty of things that should not be added

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/mapper - single paid

mapping group produced 800 000+ instances of an unwanted tag

(they promised recently to fix it)

(3) sometimes this tags are used to describe still existing remains

that is OK, though I would tag it differently

(map existing embankment rather that railway that used to

be located on still existing embankment)

(4) Wiki documents used tags, not just desirable ones

In some cases it documents tags as a very bad idea.

(5) Some people thought/think that mapping completely

gone objects in OSM is OK. AFAIK they used to be more

prominent in the past.

May 27, 2020, 01:40 by [hidden email]:

then why are there tags ?

 

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Demolished_Railway

 

and if the platform posts are still there ?

 

Tuesday, May 26, 2020 4:52 PM -05:00 from Jack Armstrong <[hidden email]>:

 

Thanks. I'll try that.

 

From: Warin <<a href="javascript:void(0)">61sundowner@...>

 

Advise them to enter the historic railway into OHM ... or any historic object for that matter. This satisfies them that the object is mapped and frees OSM from it.

 

 

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[Warin]

On 27/5/20 9:40 am, 80hnhtv4agou--- via talk wrote:

then why are there tags ?

 

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Demolished_Railway

 

and if the platform posts are still there ?

Those tags are for things that are still there, if what remains is still identifiable as a building/railway/road/bridge then that should be mapped in OSM.

Historic things should be mapped into OHM, even if they are no longer there or still remain ( a start and end date are usefull in OHM as a date slider can be used to revel what is there at that date).

 

Tuesday, May 26, 2020 4:52 PM -05:00 from Jack Armstrong [hidden email]:
 

Thanks. I'll try that.
 

From: Warin <61sundowner@...>

 

Advise them to enter the historic railway into OHM ... or any historic object for that matter. This satisfies them that the object is mapped and frees OSM from it.

 

 

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