Specific tag for Satellite Dishes

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Specific tag for Satellite Dishes

Enock Seth Nyamador-2
Hello,

Sorry for cross posting.

I am looking for specific tags for Satellite Dish [1]. I haven't found anything near so far. May be am missing something, else it doesn't exist and might be useful to propose and come handy in some cases.

Ever mapped something like this or any idea will be great.


--
Best,
-Enock

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Re: Specific tag for Satellite Dishes

Warin
On 29/07/19 15:03, Enock Seth Nyamador wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Sorry for cross posting.
>
> I am looking for specific tags for Satellite Dish [1]. I haven't found
> anything near so far. May be am missing something, else it doesn't
> exist and might be useful to propose and come handy in some cases.
>
> Ever mapped something like this or any idea will be great.
>
> 1. https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q253843

See
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/antenna:use#Values 
for some ideas.

Note the use of antenna:type=* is used for everything, frequency band,
configuration, application. It is a bit of a mess.

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Re: Specific tag for Satellite Dishes

Joseph Eisenberg
I looked into this myself, back when I noticed that some large dishes
were mistagged as radio telescopes.

For huge communications dishes, there is tower:construction=dish to be
used with man_made=tower and we even have a satellite-dish style
rendering for this at Openstreetmap-carto, for some reason. This
should probably only be used for "tower"-sized dishes, not small
household ones?

For smaller satellite dishes, there is man_made=satellite_dish -
documented at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dsatellite_dish
- but note it is suggested that "This attribute is not suitable for
private house antennas". I think this tag might be suitable for very
large dishes too.

Joseph

On 7/29/19, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 29/07/19 15:03, Enock Seth Nyamador wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> Sorry for cross posting.
>>
>> I am looking for specific tags for Satellite Dish [1]. I haven't found
>> anything near so far. May be am missing something, else it doesn't
>> exist and might be useful to propose and come handy in some cases.
>>
>> Ever mapped something like this or any idea will be great.
>>
>> 1. https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q253843
>
> See
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/antenna:use#Values
> for some ideas.
>
> Note the use of antenna:type=* is used for everything, frequency band,
> configuration, application. It is a bit of a mess.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>

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Re: Specific tag for Satellite Dishes

Topographe Fou
In reply to this post by Enock Seth Nyamador-2
Look at this recent page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dsatellite_dish

Note that this tag is 'in use' and has few usage. You can make/revive a proposal in order to approve it (together with man_made=communication(s)_dish?)

LeTopographeFou
Envoyé: 29 juillet 2019 7:04 AM
Répondre à: [hidden email]
Objet: [Tagging] Specific tag for Satellite Dishes

Hello,

Sorry for cross posting.

I am looking for specific tags for Satellite Dish [1]. I haven't found anything near so far. May be am missing something, else it doesn't exist and might be useful to propose and come handy in some cases.

Ever mapped something like this or any idea will be great.


--
Best,
-Enock

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Re: Specific tag for Satellite Dishes

Enock Seth Nyamador-2

This attribute is not suitable for private house antennas.

Apparently this caveat prevented us from using all above tags since we want to use it in this regard. See screenshot [1]

1. https://imgur.com/tyXnMtJ



Le lun. 29 juil. 2019 à 06:23, Topographe Fou <[hidden email]> a écrit :
Look at this recent page:

Note that this tag is 'in use' and has few usage. You can make/revive a proposal in order to approve it (together with man_made=communication(s)_dish?)

LeTopographeFou
Envoyé: 29 juillet 2019 7:04 AM
Répondre à: [hidden email]
Objet: [Tagging] Specific tag for Satellite Dishes

Hello,

Sorry for cross posting.

I am looking for specific tags for Satellite Dish [1]. I haven't found anything near so far. May be am missing something, else it doesn't exist and might be useful to propose and come handy in some cases.

Ever mapped something like this or any idea will be great.


--
Best,
-Enock
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--
Best,
-Enock

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Re: Specific tag for Satellite Dishes

dieterdreist


Am Mo., 29. Juli 2019 um 09:36 Uhr schrieb Enock Seth Nyamador <[hidden email]>:

This attribute is not suitable for private house antennas.

Apparently this caveat prevented us from using all above tags since we want to use it in this regard. See screenshot [1]

1. https://imgur.com/tyXnMtJ





the man_made=satellite_dish tag is poorly defined anyway, the short definition speaks about "ground stations": "A ground station is a terrestrial radio station designed for extraplanetary telecommunication with spacecraf."

Probably most satellite dishes are set up for communication with satellites, generally most of them being only receivers.
The whole page should likely be rewritten, as it does not focus on the feature (satellite dish) but on other features (ground station, radio telescope, etc.). It isn't clear why this should not be used for private satellite dishes, and there should probably be some discussion on this list and improvement of the wiki page.

Cheers,
Martin



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Re: Specific tag for Satellite Dishes

Joseph Eisenberg
I agree; I spent a few minutes trying to improve the page a bit.

However, I don't see much benefit from mapping private household
satellite antennas: the dishes in the linked picture above are only 90
cm across, and they are on just about every house.

Maybe there are more useful things to map in Ghana before adding these
minor features?

On 7/29/19, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Am Mo., 29. Juli 2019 um 09:36 Uhr schrieb Enock Seth Nyamador <
> [hidden email]>:
>
>> *This attribute is not suitable for private house antennas.*
>>>
>> Apparently this caveat prevented us from using all above tags since we
>> want to use it in this regard. See screenshot [1]
>>
>> 1. https://imgur.com/tyXnMtJ
>>
>>
>
>
> the man_made=satellite_dish tag is poorly defined anyway, the short
> definition speaks about "ground stations": "A ground station is a
> terrestrial radio station designed for extraplanetary telecommunication
> with spacecraf."
>
> Probably most satellite dishes are set up for communication with
> satellites, generally most of them being only receivers.
> The whole page should likely be rewritten, as it does not focus on the
> feature (satellite dish) but on other features (ground station, radio
> telescope, etc.). It isn't clear why this should not be used for private
> satellite dishes, and there should probably be some discussion on this list
> and improvement of the wiki page.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>

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Re: Specific tag for Satellite Dishes

Enock Seth Nyamador-2
> However, I don't see much benefit from mapping private household
> satellite antennas: the dishes in the linked picture above are only 90
> cm across, and they are on just about every house.

> Maybe there are more useful things to map in Ghana before adding these
> minor features?

I agree with you but in our case for the fact that this a slum. We thought this will serve a purpose. Yes many more useful things will be mapped soon :). Not 90cm across dishes into OSM this time. Thanks for comments.

Le lun. 29 juil. 2019 à 10:18, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> a écrit :
I agree; I spent a few minutes trying to improve the page a bit.

However, I don't see much benefit from mapping private household
satellite antennas: the dishes in the linked picture above are only 90
cm across, and they are on just about every house.

Maybe there are more useful things to map in Ghana before adding these
minor features?

On 7/29/19, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Am Mo., 29. Juli 2019 um 09:36 Uhr schrieb Enock Seth Nyamador <
> [hidden email]>:
>
>> *This attribute is not suitable for private house antennas.*
>>>
>> Apparently this caveat prevented us from using all above tags since we
>> want to use it in this regard. See screenshot [1]
>>
>> 1. https://imgur.com/tyXnMtJ
>>
>>
>
>
> the man_made=satellite_dish tag is poorly defined anyway, the short
> definition speaks about "ground stations": "A ground station is a
> terrestrial radio station designed for extraplanetary telecommunication
> with spacecraf."
>
> Probably most satellite dishes are set up for communication with
> satellites, generally most of them being only receivers.
> The whole page should likely be rewritten, as it does not focus on the
> feature (satellite dish) but on other features (ground station, radio
> telescope, etc.). It isn't clear why this should not be used for private
> satellite dishes, and there should probably be some discussion on this list
> and improvement of the wiki page.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>

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-Enock

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Re: Specific tag for Satellite Dishes

Jean-Marc Liotier
In reply to this post by Enock Seth Nyamador-2
On Mon, July 29, 2019 7:03 am, Enock Seth Nyamador wrote:
> I am looking for specific tags for Satellite Dish [1]. I haven't found
> anything near so far. May be am missing something, else it doesn't exist
> and might be useful to propose and come handy in some cases.

Prior discussion about that:
http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/quot-satellit-quot-td5934448.html -
inconclusive because there is no consensus about granularity

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Re: Specific tag for Satellite Dishes

Paul Allen
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
On Mon, 29 Jul 2019 at 11:18, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

However, I don't see much benefit from mapping private household
satellite antennas: the dishes in the linked picture above are only 90
cm across, and they are on just about every house.

Maybe there are more useful things to map in Ghana before adding these
minor features?

I don't know about the situation in Ghana, but I can conceive of communities where it's one
satellite dish per village with public access (or nearly so) to the TV.  "Here is where you
get to watch the news about the rest of the world," "Here is where you watch the broadcast
educational stuff," kind of thing.  But that's probably better handled as some sort of
amenity tag (here is where you can watch TV) rather than a physical mapping of dishes.

That said, as you observed, there seem to be a lot of dishes in that image so I wouldn't map
them as they're not for the public.  I could see where it might be useful to somebody to map
them to show the uptake of the technology in given areas, but that's what uMap is for.  If
that's why Enock wants to do it, I might be amenable to a new tag that doesn't get rendered
which could be picked up on uMap automagically with an overpass-turbo query, but maybe
the db guys would object to that level of clutter.

--
Paul


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Re: Specific tag for Satellite Dishes

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 29. Jul 2019, at 14:17, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>   I could see where it might be useful to somebody to map
> them to show the uptake of the technology in given areas


it could also show the level of cooperation/coordination: one dish per household or a better one shared among the residents?

Cheers Martin
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Re: Specific tag for Satellite Dishes

Kevin Kenny-3
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 6:06 AM Martin Koppenhoefer
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> the man_made=satellite_dish tag is poorly defined anyway, the short definition speaks about "ground stations": "A ground station is a terrestrial radio station designed for extraplanetary telecommunication with spacecraf."
>
> Probably most satellite dishes are set up for communication with satellites, generally most of them being only receivers.
>
> The whole page should likely be rewritten, as it does not focus on the feature (satellite dish) but on other features (ground station, radio telescope, etc.). It isn't clear why this should not be used for private satellite dishes, and there should probably be some discussion on this list and improvement of the wiki page.

To an American engineer (I can speak with some authority, *being* an
American holder of an MSEE degree ;) ) 'communication' comprises
either transmission or reception, or both, and 'spacecraft' includes
'satellite'. In each case, a more general term was chosen over a
less-general one.

I don't mind mapping any sort of satellite_dish, but the attributes
would have to depend on what you're mapping them _for_. Using them as
landmarks ("turn right just past the building with six huge satellite
dishes on the roof") is surely different from using them as amenities
("this neighbourhood has a communal satellite dish over *here* where
you can see news"), and of course the attributes would differ.

I have mapped such things, but never tried to upload the data to OSM -
it was proprietary to the customer, and of considerably less interest
to the world at large.

[OSM-related information ends here. Feel free to stop reading]

(All this was twenty years ago, by the way.) I don't think I'm
breaking a confidence to say that significant attributes were the
capabilities of the station:

   - transmit-capable, or receive-only (referring to data transmission
*through* the spacecraft, not command of the spacecraft)
   - uplink power
   - able to command the spacecraft
   - able to BE commanded remotely through the satellite network. Most
stations were not always staffed but were commanded from a central
location. Some simply monitored a particular channel on a particular
spacecraft, and needed a visit from a technician to change the antenna
pointing, frequency or polarization. Some could be commanded
out-of-band by telephone modem, and most had modems available as a
backup command channel in case antenna pointing was lost; this
included a "phone home" function if a "heartbeat" command was missed
too many times in a row.
   - pointing capability: single-spacecraft; multiple geostationary
spacecraft (longitude range(s) specified); inclined-orbit
geosynchronous spacecraft; Molniya-orbit spacecraft. (The network in
question used no other orbits. There are many, but most others would
have to be described in terms of altitude/azimuth ranges and slew
rates.)
  - number of receive channels

There were also a lot of attributes relating to connection to
terrestrial networks (microwave and optical), operational status, and
of course a whole pile of related attributes - name, contact
information (both for the modem and for "get a human over there"),
several identifiers for addressing equipment on the network, a lot of
information relating to maintenance of the station (including
information such as who the service contractor was), ...  it turned
into a Big Complicated Messy SQL Database, as so many operational
databases do.

The project, of course, was building the network operations center for
this particular network. We did have a big screen with a map of the
network and real-time status display of the operations, but that was
mostly to impress visitors. The operators found that an alphabetized
list of the station identifiers with "drill down" into detailed status
available with one click was considerably more useful; with about 400
fixed and half a dozen mobile ground stations, the displays just got
too busy otherwise.

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Re: Specific tag for Satellite Dishes

dieterdreist
Am Mo., 29. Juli 2019 um 15:51 Uhr schrieb Kevin Kenny <[hidden email]>:
To an American engineer (I can speak with some authority, *being* an
American holder of an MSEE degree ;) ) 'communication' comprises
either transmission or reception, or both, and 'spacecraft' includes
'satellite'. In each case, a more general term was chosen over a
less-general one.


thank you for explaining spacecraft, I wasn't clear about this (while for communication it is clear that one-way communication is still communication).
 
 
I don't mind mapping any sort of satellite_dish, but the attributes
would have to depend on what you're mapping them _for_. Using them as
landmarks ("turn right just past the building with six huge satellite
dishes on the roof") is surely different from using them as amenities
("this neighbourhood has a communal satellite dish over *here* where
you can see news"), and of course the attributes would differ.


sure. I read this as agreement to use the basic term also for "small" household dishes?

Cheers,
Martin

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