Sustrans & OSM

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Sustrans & OSM

Edward Bainton
Hi all

I'm meeting the local Sustrans office next week as they've asked me to compile a 'map' of the NCN mileposts in my area (I think they really mean an inventory with locator maps). 

Obviously I'll be using OSM, and trying to get them to see the benefits of doing the same. OSM seems to be largely unknown in the local office.

1. Does anyone know any history of engaging with Sustrans, to inform my lobbying? 
There's mention on the wiki of them making milepost locations available for mapping - but that's a long time ago now.

2. Here's a sample page of what they sent me as a precedent. 
Any suggestions for how to leverage OSM's capabilities to improve it?
I ask as a non-techie. My own thoughts: put it online & wikify; 'live' locator maps updating as OSM changes; filterable by NCN route.

Thanks as ever

Edward / eteb3

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Re: Sustrans & OSM

Great Britain mailing list
I've had the occasional limited discussions on social media. Arguments against using OSM fall into

1. Claim of no cost to use OS data as it's via local authority licensing. Unsure if it's all LAs
2. They "wanted to use mapping that had 100% reliable data for the users benefit."
3. Mild resentment at being informed they may not be using the best solution.

Can you check if they have a sponsorship agreement with OS?

DaveF

On 09/10/2019 17:31, Edward Bainton wrote:
Hi all

I'm meeting the local Sustrans office next week as they've asked me to
compile a 'map' of the NCN mileposts in my area (I think they really mean
an inventory with locator maps).

Obviously I'll be using OSM, and trying to get them to see the benefits of
doing the same. OSM seems to be largely unknown in the local office.

1. Does anyone know *any history of engaging with Sustrans*, to inform my
lobbying?
There's mention on the wiki
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_National_Cycle_Network#Tagging_information>
of
them making milepost locations available for mapping - but that's a long
time ago now.

2. Here's a sample page
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/c3d686qnu77t0mz/Millennium%20milepost%20Compilation.doc.pdf?dl=0>
of what they sent me as a precedent.
*Any suggestions for how to leverage OSM's capabilities to improve it?*
I ask as a non-techie. My own thoughts: put it online & wikify; 'live'
locator maps updating as OSM changes; filterable by NCN route.

Thanks as ever

Edward / eteb3



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Re: Sustrans & OSM

Jez Nicholson
Hi Ed,

Good to see you lobbying on behalf of OSM. If they get really interested and you want to hook the national level organisation then give us a shout at OSMUK.

BTW, where is 'local' for you?

Looking on the bright side. Arguments *for* using OSM:
1. They/volunteers/helpers can add/edit locations that other mapping agencies might not be interested in, or might take a while to include
2. Creating and managing your own GIS infrastructure costs time, effort, and money
3. Other people are starting to trust OSM as a source, e.g. National Trust
4. Cycle maps often use OSM data
5. The data is somewhere where people can get hold of it if the want to

Overpass Turbo is useful for querying http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/MZy and it has options to export or create a map.

This is the type of activity that could end up as an OSMUK Quarterly Project and/or a specific tool could be built.

That wiki page is mostly from 2009. It would be good to update it.

Regards,
             Jez

On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 12:26 AM Dave F via Talk-GB <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've had the occasional limited discussions on social media. Arguments against using OSM fall into

1. Claim of no cost to use OS data as it's via local authority licensing. Unsure if it's all LAs
2. They "wanted to use mapping that had 100% reliable data for the users benefit."
3. Mild resentment at being informed they may not be using the best solution.

Can you check if they have a sponsorship agreement with OS?

DaveF

On 09/10/2019 17:31, Edward Bainton wrote:
Hi all

I'm meeting the local Sustrans office next week as they've asked me to
compile a 'map' of the NCN mileposts in my area (I think they really mean
an inventory with locator maps).

Obviously I'll be using OSM, and trying to get them to see the benefits of
doing the same. OSM seems to be largely unknown in the local office.

1. Does anyone know *any history of engaging with Sustrans*, to inform my
lobbying?
There's mention on the wiki
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_National_Cycle_Network#Tagging_information>
of
them making milepost locations available for mapping - but that's a long
time ago now.

2. Here's a sample page
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/c3d686qnu77t0mz/Millennium%20milepost%20Compilation.doc.pdf?dl=0>
of what they sent me as a precedent.
*Any suggestions for how to leverage OSM's capabilities to improve it?*
I ask as a non-techie. My own thoughts: put it online & wikify; 'live'
locator maps updating as OSM changes; filterable by NCN route.

Thanks as ever

Edward / eteb3



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Re: Sustrans & OSM

Great Britain mailing list
In reply to this post by Great Britain mailing list
(Could you please ensure replies are sent to the forum. Thanks)

Roughly upto around 3-4 years ago, which is why I'm uncertain if a
sponsorship arrangement is in place.

DaveF

On 10/10/2019 07:41, Edward Bainton wrote:

> Thanks for that.
>
> I will ask re any formal sponsorship etc
>
> May I ask how long ago it is that you were in discussion with them?
> On 10 Oct 2019 00:26, "Dave F via Talk-GB" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> I've had the occasional limited discussions on social media. Arguments
>> against using OSM fall into
>>
>> 1. Claim of no cost to use OS data as it's via local authority licensing.
>> Unsure if it's all LAs
>> 2. They "wanted to use mapping that had 100% reliable data for the users
>> benefit."
>> 3. Mild resentment at being informed they may not be using the best
>> solution.
>>
>> Can you check if they have a sponsorship agreement with OS?
>>
>> DaveF
>>
>> On 09/10/2019 17:31, Edward Bainton wrote:
>>
>> Hi all
>>
>> I'm meeting the local Sustrans office next week as they've asked me to
>> compile a 'map' of the NCN mileposts in my area (I think they really mean
>> an inventory with locator maps).
>>
>> Obviously I'll be using OSM, and trying to get them to see the benefits of
>> doing the same. OSM seems to be largely unknown in the local office.
>>
>> 1. Does anyone know *any history of engaging with Sustrans*, to inform my
>> lobbying?
>> There's mention on the wiki<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_National_Cycle_Network#Tagging_information> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_National_Cycle_Network#Tagging_information>
>> of
>> them making milepost locations available for mapping - but that's a long
>> time ago now.
>>
>> 2. Here's a sample page<https://www.dropbox.com/s/c3d686qnu77t0mz/Millennium%20milepost%20Compilation.doc.pdf?dl=0> <https://www.dropbox.com/s/c3d686qnu77t0mz/Millennium%20milepost%20Compilation.doc.pdf?dl=0>
>> of what they sent me as a precedent.
>> *Any suggestions for how to leverage OSM's capabilities to improve it?*
>> I ask as a non-techie. My own thoughts: put it online & wikify; 'live'
>> locator maps updating as OSM changes; filterable by NCN route.
>>
>> Thanks as ever
>>
>> Edward / eteb3
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Talk-GB mailing [hidden email]://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Talk-GB mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>>
>>


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Re: Sustrans & OSM

Edward Bainton
In reply to this post by Jez Nicholson

Thanks Jez, that's all very encouraging.

Local to me is Peterborough.

Yes will definitely aim to progress this to a national-level conversation - I'll loop back here once it's clearer what they think their needs are. (or better on Loomio? Another OSM channel, who'd ha' thunk it ;)

Ditto the NCN wiki.

On 10 Oct 2019 11:57, "Jez Nicholson" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Ed,

Good to see you lobbying on behalf of OSM. If they get really interested and you want to hook the national level organisation then give us a shout at OSMUK.

BTW, where is 'local' for you?

Looking on the bright side. Arguments *for* using OSM:
1. They/volunteers/helpers can add/edit locations that other mapping agencies might not be interested in, or might take a while to include
2. Creating and managing your own GIS infrastructure costs time, effort, and money
3. Other people are starting to trust OSM as a source, e.g. National Trust
4. Cycle maps often use OSM data
5. The data is somewhere where people can get hold of it if the want to

Overpass Turbo is useful for querying http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/MZy and it has options to export or create a map.

This is the type of activity that could end up as an OSMUK Quarterly Project and/or a specific tool could be built.

That wiki page is mostly from 2009. It would be good to update it.

Regards,
             Jez

On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 12:26 AM Dave F via Talk-GB <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've had the occasional limited discussions on social media. Arguments against using OSM fall into

1. Claim of no cost to use OS data as it's via local authority licensing. Unsure if it's all LAs
2. They "wanted to use mapping that had 100% reliable data for the users benefit."
3. Mild resentment at being informed they may not be using the best solution.

Can you check if they have a sponsorship agreement with OS?

DaveF

On 09/10/2019 17:31, Edward Bainton wrote:
Hi all

I'm meeting the local Sustrans office next week as they've asked me to
compile a 'map' of the NCN mileposts in my area (I think they really mean
an inventory with locator maps).

Obviously I'll be using OSM, and trying to get them to see the benefits of
doing the same. OSM seems to be largely unknown in the local office.

1. Does anyone know *any history of engaging with Sustrans*, to inform my
lobbying?
There's mention on the wiki
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_National_Cycle_Network#Tagging_information>
of
them making milepost locations available for mapping - but that's a long
time ago now.

2. Here's a sample page
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/c3d686qnu77t0mz/Millennium%20milepost%20Compilation.doc.pdf?dl=0>
of what they sent me as a precedent.
*Any suggestions for how to leverage OSM's capabilities to improve it?*
I ask as a non-techie. My own thoughts: put it online & wikify; 'live'
locator maps updating as OSM changes; filterable by NCN route.

Thanks as ever

Edward / eteb3



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Re: Sustrans & OSM

Edward Bainton
In reply to this post by Great Britain mailing list
Hi Dave F

From my own hour-long chat with a local volunteer manager I inferred two reasons for steering clear of OSM:
- Unreliable, as you inferred.
- Exposes Sustrans to risk. I wonder if that may be their response to anything they don't closely control.

I asked whether there was an agreement with OS and was told they have an agreement to have the NCN listed as a layer on OS mapping (see here). 
"If you want to use their more detailed mapping you pay a subscription but the NCN is mapped just the same." 

Who knows if this is a financial agreement, and if so in which direction the money flows. I'll keep plugging away at that one. (By the by, this may possibly be connected with Sustrans' recent move to ArcGiS?)

Sustrans appear to have moved the NCN routes off their own site altogether (perhaps not news to you), and link directly to osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/ncn. The behaviour is pretty horrible - eg, can't cope with more than one NCN/LCN route on a given stretch of road, which the OpenCycleMap layer does very nicely. OTOH there's a link to a route description and to buy the Sustrans paper map. I've no experience of these.

I'm sure I'll revert to this topic soon enough. Meanwhile any further comments gladly received.

Edward

On Thu, 10 Oct 2019 at 12:06, Dave F via Talk-GB <[hidden email]> wrote:
(Could you please ensure replies are sent to the forum. Thanks)

Roughly upto around 3-4 years ago, which is why I'm uncertain if a
sponsorship arrangement is in place.

DaveF

On 10/10/2019 07:41, Edward Bainton wrote:
> Thanks for that.
>
> I will ask re any formal sponsorship etc
>
> May I ask how long ago it is that you were in discussion with them?
> On 10 Oct 2019 00:26, "Dave F via Talk-GB" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> I've had the occasional limited discussions on social media. Arguments
>> against using OSM fall into
>>
>> 1. Claim of no cost to use OS data as it's via local authority licensing.
>> Unsure if it's all LAs
>> 2. They "wanted to use mapping that had 100% reliable data for the users
>> benefit."
>> 3. Mild resentment at being informed they may not be using the best
>> solution.
>>
>> Can you check if they have a sponsorship agreement with OS?
>>
>> DaveF
>>
>> On 09/10/2019 17:31, Edward Bainton wrote:
>>
>> Hi all
>>
>> I'm meeting the local Sustrans office next week as they've asked me to
>> compile a 'map' of the NCN mileposts in my area (I think they really mean
>> an inventory with locator maps).
>>
>> Obviously I'll be using OSM, and trying to get them to see the benefits of
>> doing the same. OSM seems to be largely unknown in the local office.
>>
>> 1. Does anyone know *any history of engaging with Sustrans*, to inform my
>> lobbying?
>> There's mention on the wiki<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_National_Cycle_Network#Tagging_information> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_National_Cycle_Network#Tagging_information>
>> of
>> them making milepost locations available for mapping - but that's a long
>> time ago now.
>>
>> 2. Here's a sample page<https://www.dropbox.com/s/c3d686qnu77t0mz/Millennium%20milepost%20Compilation.doc.pdf?dl=0> <https://www.dropbox.com/s/c3d686qnu77t0mz/Millennium%20milepost%20Compilation.doc.pdf?dl=0>
>> of what they sent me as a precedent.
>> *Any suggestions for how to leverage OSM's capabilities to improve it?*
>> I ask as a non-techie. My own thoughts: put it online & wikify; 'live'
>> locator maps updating as OSM changes; filterable by NCN route.
>>
>> Thanks as ever
>>
>> Edward / eteb3
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Talk-GB mailing [hidden email]://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Talk-GB mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>>
>>


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Re: Sustrans & OSM

Andy Townsend
On 04/11/2019 18:19, Edward Bainton wrote:
(much snippage)
Sustrans appear to have moved the NCN routes off their own site altogether (perhaps not news to you), and link directly to osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/ncn. The behaviour is pretty horrible - eg, can't cope with more than one NCN/LCN route on a given stretch of road, which the OpenCycleMap layer does very nicely. OTOH there's a link to a route description and to buy the Sustrans paper map. I've no experience of these.

Just to throw in a local anecdote as an aside, as I understand it Sustrans near Derby changed their mapping to match what was in OSM because (a) what we had was a better representation of the signage on the ground and (b) it was a better route for cyclists!

Best Regards,

Andy




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Re: Sustrans & OSM

Edward Bainton
> as I understand it Sustrans near Derby changed their mapping to match what was in OSM

So that is now in their GIS and so on OS and so OS needs to acknowledge OSM at osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/ncn?

On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 at 18:29, Andy Townsend <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 04/11/2019 18:19, Edward Bainton wrote:
(much snippage)
Sustrans appear to have moved the NCN routes off their own site altogether (perhaps not news to you), and link directly to osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/ncn. The behaviour is pretty horrible - eg, can't cope with more than one NCN/LCN route on a given stretch of road, which the OpenCycleMap layer does very nicely. OTOH there's a link to a route description and to buy the Sustrans paper map. I've no experience of these.

Just to throw in a local anecdote as an aside, as I understand it Sustrans near Derby changed their mapping to match what was in OSM because (a) what we had was a better representation of the signage on the ground and (b) it was a better route for cyclists!

Best Regards,

Andy



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