Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant

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Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant

European Water Project
Dear Hauke,

It goes without saying that we will develop best practice instructions on wikimedia for how to tag cafes and bars which offer free water bottle refill for non paying customers. We will not give instructions for the other cases as that is not our target audience. 

The proposal below does not seem optimal, but if that is what is decided we will write wiki instructions in this manner. 

I still prefer free_water_refill=yes/no  free_water_table=yes/no

Does anyone else prefer this nomenclature ?

Best regards,

Stuart 



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Message: 1
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 14:26:13 +0100
From: Hauke Stieler <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Tagging]  Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars,
        restaurant
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi,

> This model is used for many other tags in OSM. One of the most
> fundamental tags, access=*, uses it to show "access only for customers"
> for example.
> See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:access%3Dcustomers .
> free_water=customers would not look out of place at all in that list.

+1
I think the wiki/documentation of the European Water Project should then
describe this in a way that newbies also understand the different values
of the tag.

> The other dimension that has been mentioned, is "bring your own
> container" vs. "we supply the container". Something like
> "container=customer", "container=supplier" or "container=both" perhaps?

Because a "container" could be anything (at a supermarket or kiosk it
could also be a container for food), I suggest something like
"free_water:container=*" to make clear that the container "availability"
refers to the refill service.

Hauke

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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 22:38:12 +0900
From: Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]>
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
        <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Tagging]  Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars,
        restaurant
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> I suggest something like
"free_water:container=*" to make clear that the container "availability"
refers to the refill service.

+1



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Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant

Hauke Stieler
Hi Stuart,

> The proposal below does not seem optimal, but if that is what is decided
> we will write wiki instructions in this manner.
No decisions have been made so far. Currently all these mails just
contain ideas and discussions.

I'm personally a fan of the namespace scheme, the one with the ":"
separating parts of a tag. You'll find this e.g. on addresses:

        addr:street=*
        addr:city=*
        addr:housenumber=*
        ...

Or also for parking situations:

        parking:lane=*
        parking:lane:left=*
        parking:condition=*
        ...

This semantic separation of a key creates a nice structure and organizes
this huge collection of possible tags into groups.

> I still prefer free_water_refill=yes/no  free_water_table=yes/no
Because the beginning of these two tags are the same, for me personally
it's a reason to change them into "free_water:..." tags.

Using this scheme, I can also imagine the following tags (just ideas,
the keys and values are probably not optimal):

free_water=<yes/no/customers>
free_water:container=<customer/supplier/both>
free_water:table=<yes/no>
(maybe more...)

However, in the end, there must probably be a tag proposal (a wiki page
describing how the final tags should look like, what they exactly mean,
when to use them, what use-cases do they have, etc.). Everybody can vote
for or against the proposal, therefore it's in the end on the community
to decide what tags become "official".

Hauke


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Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant

European Water Project
In reply to this post by European Water Project

Thanks Hauke

The namespace scheme could work. It is very elegant and clean. The meaning of customer in container is a bit confusing... as it can be a paying or non paying customer. 

I could see : 
free_water = <anyone,must_consume>
free_water:container =<own,establishment>
free_water:table=<yes/no>  

How long does it typically take for the tag allocation decision process to be completed?  Do you have an example wiki proposal page ?  

Best regards,

Stuart 

 

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 19:57:02 +0100
From: Hauke Stieler <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Tagging]  Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars,
        restaurant
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi Stuart,

> The proposal below does not seem optimal, but if that is what is decided
> we will write wiki instructions in this manner.
No decisions have been made so far. Currently all these mails just
contain ideas and discussions.

I'm personally a fan of the namespace scheme, the one with the ":"
separating parts of a tag. You'll find this e.g. on addresses:

        addr:street=*
        addr:city=*
        addr:housenumber=*
        ...

Or also for parking situations:

        parking:lane=*
        parking:lane:left=*
        parking:condition=*
        ...

This semantic separation of a key creates a nice structure and organizes
this huge collection of possible tags into groups.

> I still prefer free_water_refill=yes/no  free_water_table=yes/no
Because the beginning of these two tags are the same, for me personally
it's a reason to change them into "free_water:..." tags.

Using this scheme, I can also imagine the following tags (just ideas,
the keys and values are probably not optimal):

free_water=<yes/no/customers>
free_water:container=<customer/supplier/both>
free_water:table=<yes/no>
(maybe more...)

However, in the end, there must probably be a tag proposal (a wiki page
describing how the final tags should look like, what they exactly mean,
when to use them, what use-cases do they have, etc.). Everybody can vote
for or against the proposal, therefore it's in the end on the community
to decide what tags become "official".

Hauke

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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 20:01:56 +0100
From: European Water Project <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Tagging]  Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, (Martin
        Koppenhoefer)
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>
>    2. Re:  Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, (Martin Koppenhoefer)
>
>>>>> Martin, Italy is amazing. Apparently there are more than 100,000
fountains in Italy. On the 24th of April, we are planning a fountain hunt
in Rome with the My-D.org. We should be 20 people including locals (just in
case you live there).
re: amenity=drinking_water
France is complicated and the lobbies have made almost all perfectly good
water fountains labelled "non potable". Just across the borders in
Switzerland and Italy all the fountains are good to drink......

Price can be an incentive, but unless the waste producer pays all true
indirect externalities the cost will always be minimal for PET.


> 3. Re:  Tagging Free Water for cafés,  bars, (Philip Barnes)
>

>>>>>>>Philip, Yes, like the US and France. We believe that it should be
that way everywhere. No one should have to create single-use waste to keep
themselves hydrated.

>
>
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 17:50:20 +0100
> From: Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]>
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
>         <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Tagging]  Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars,
> Message-ID:
>         <
> [hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Am Mo., 13. Jan. 2020 um 17:29 Uhr schrieb European Water Project <
> [hidden email]>:
>
> > While I understand your point of view, many are trying hard to change
> > legislation and might see it as more than a marketing gimmick but rather
> a
> > right to be able to drink without generating single-use waste. Belgium,
> > Luxembourg,  Switzerland and Italy are not obliged to serve tap water
> with
> > a meal like in France where we live.
> >
>
>
> from a practical point of view, living in Italy, I have not yet encountered
> a place that would have refused (free) tap water. Great thing about Italy
> is that you can get free water in many places right on the street, from
> drinking fountains 24/7. amenity=drinking_water is rank 5 on Italy's
> taginfo stats, almost double the amount of petrol stations :)
> https://taginfo.geofabrik.de/europe/italy/keys/amenity#values
>
> In France, drinking_water is amenity rank 23, so rightfully your government
> has found other ways to provide you with water ;-)
> https://taginfo.geofabrik.de/europe/france/keys/amenity#values
>
> Not to get me wrong, I do agree there is benefit from political action, and
> there are issues related to water. What also matters is the actual price
> you have to pay for (bottled) water. It will always be completely unrelated
> to drinking water prices, but while in Italy a bottle of water is typically
> 1 EUR (away from airports), or 2 EUR (in the restaurant, there are
> exceptions), in Germany they will typically charge you 2,50 and more for
> just a glass of water. In Switzerland, they sell water for 5 SFR a bottle
> on the motorway, and 4 EUR and more is not unseen on German motorways as
> well.
>
> Cheers
> Martin
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> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 18:12:56 +0000
> From: Philip Barnes <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Tagging]  Tagging Free Water for cafés,  bars,
> Message-ID:
>         <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> In GB it is the law that licensed premises provide free drinking water.
>
> So that , means all pubs, most restaurants and some cafes.
>
> Phil (trigpoint)
>
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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 21:02:10 +0100
From: Markus <[hidden email]>
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
        <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] amenity=tourist_bus_parking
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        <CAJJ-S94-nzLN9GmFq=[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hi John

On Thu, 9 Jan 2020 at 22:37, John Willis via Tagging
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/36.31737/139.61884
>
> Here is a good example of the kind of situations I have in my area:
>
> - a service area with two different lots, car and HGV (bus/lorry) adjacent to each other, with a satellite bathroom for the busses.
> - service area is segregated by motorway direction, and labeled as such. This makes duplicates of everything.  They are usually not adjacent, but are in this case.
> - dedicated separated handicap parking
> - separate “permissive” lots for people outside the toll system to park and enter on foot.
> - loading zones for deliveries (untagged).

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/758265853

amenity=parking
access=customers
bus=designated
hgv=designated
motorcar=no
parking=surface
ref=🚛🚌
surface=asphalt

As amenity=parking currently is defined as a car park, data users
would assume that this is a car park for customers (they likely don't
evaluate motorcar=no).

Even if amenity=parking weren't exclusive for cars, but for any
vehicles, your tagging doesn't mean what you likely had in mind (i.e.
a customer parking for buses and HGVs), but a designated parking
facility for buses and HGVs (not only for customers) that other
vehicles except cars (e.g. tourist buses or motorcycles) can use if
they are customers.

In order that data understand your example and before we've found a
solution for parkings for multiple vehicle classes, i would recommend
to tag it as follows:

amenity=parking
access=no
bus=customers
hgv=customers

Regards

Markus



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Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant

Hauke Stieler
Hi Stuart

> I could see : 
> free_water = <anyone,must_consume>
> free_water:container =<own,establishment>
> free_water:table=<yes/no>
If something is for the general public (= anyone) the value is usually
"yes" (as at the "access" tag [0]) and then there are further
restricting values (when there's a "yes" there's mostly at least also a
"no").

What does "must_consume" mean? People visiting this place and consuming
water at that place (e.g. during a dinner in a restaurant)? If that's
the case, then I would use the value "customers" as it is already used
and known for other tags.

> How long does it typically take for the tag allocation decision process
> to be completed?  Do you have an example wiki proposal page ? 
There's a description page on the proposal process [1] describing each
step that should be done.

As an example, there's the proposal page for "amenity=public_bookcase"
[2] which had a rather fast proposal process without much discussion. As
you can see there, it took nearly one month from a first draft to the
accepted tag. As your tag idea and use-cases are quite clear, simple and
would add usable and helpful tags, your proposal probably won't take any
longer than that.

The proposal description page also specifies the recommended duration
the proposal has to stay in one state (e.g. to wait for further
discussion or to wait for people to vote). Don't mind to ask questions
on the proposal process (even though I'm not an expert in this).

Hauke

[0] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access
[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/public_bookcase


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Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant

Paul Allen
On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 at 20:52, Hauke Stieler <[hidden email]> wrote:

What does "must_consume" mean?

free_water=must_consume means exactly what it says.  Anybody who
enters will be given free water and they MUST consume it.  Or else.  So
we need a tag to specify the punishment if they refuse to consume the
free water (such as being ejected, fined, or killed).

Not, in my opinion, a good value for the key.

--
Paul


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Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant

Joseph Eisenberg
In reply to this post by Hauke Stieler
free_water_table= or free_water:table= will be confusing for places
that sell take-out food and don't have tables, for examples small
fast-food restaurants, convenience shops, etc.

The word "customers" should be included, since what you are trying to
specify is that "you can only get free water if you buy something
else", and "customers" is the standard term in Openstreetmap for this
idea.

- Joseph Eisenberg

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Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant

European Water Project
In reply to this post by European Water Project

1. Re:  Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant (Paul Allen)
 
>>>> Paul, thanks for your comment, I see your point
What do you think of ?
free_water = <anyone,consumer>
free_water:container =<own,establishment>

   2. Re:  Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
      (Joseph Eisenberg)

>>>> Joseph, makes sense , I removed free_water:table
What do you think of ?
free_water = <anyone,consumer>
free_water:container =<own,establishment>

For the European Water Project, we would include cafes, bars, restaurants 
with 
free_water = anyone
free_water:container =own

and the other three combinations seem to sufficiently cover the other use cases

Best regards,

Stuart 



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 20:58:09 +0000
From: Paul Allen <[hidden email]>
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
        <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Tagging]  Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars,
        restaurant
Message-ID:
        <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 at 20:52, Hauke Stieler <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> What does "must_consume" mean?
>

free_water=must_consume means exactly what it says.  Anybody who
enters will be given free water and they MUST consume it.  Or else.  So
we need a tag to specify the punishment if they refuse to consume the
free water (such as being ejected, fined, or killed).

Not, in my opinion, a good value for the key.

--
Paul
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 06:49:47 +0900
From: Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]>
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
        <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Tagging]  Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars,
        restaurant
Message-ID:
        <CAP_2vPjBzwK0uUtCrabDp4G=[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

free_water_table= or free_water:table= will be confusing for places
that sell take-out food and don't have tables, for examples small
fast-food restaurants, convenience shops, etc.

The word "customers" should be included, since what you are trying to
specify is that "you can only get free water if you buy something
else", and "customers" is the standard term in Openstreetmap for this
idea.

- Joseph Eisenberg




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Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant

Joseph Eisenberg
> What do you think of ?
> free_water = <anyone,consumer>
> free_water:container =<own,establishment>

The standard "access" values that openstreetmap uses, relevant to this
discussion are:

"yes" (this means "anyone" / "everyone" / "the general public")
"no" (this means "no for all the categories below")
"customers" (this means "only for customers" that is, for people who
have paid a fee or bought something)

See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access#List_of_possible_values

These values are commonly used for access to parking lots, for
example, so most people who add things to the map will know about
them.

So the values of "free_water=" should be:

free_water = yes
and
free_water = customer

This will make it easier for mappers like us to understand your new
tags and use them correctly.

free_water:container =<own,establishment> - this seems fine?
Other options:
free_water:container = "bring_your_own" (maybe a little clearer?)
and
free_water:container = "available"? or maybe "provided"?

Thank you for discussing this here! Many people just make up their new
tags without getting advice from the rest of the community, so you are
doing a good thing. Please forgive us for any overly blunt or direct
criticism - there are many different cultures and communication styles
represented here.

(If you want, there is a whole, detailed "proposal process" that you
can follow if you want to get these tags official approved. It is not
required, but sometimes it can be helpful if you want more people to
discuss your ideas and the new tags to be displayed more prominently
on the wiki.
See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process for this option.)

- Joseph Eisenberg

On 1/14/20, European Water Project <[hidden email]> wrote:

>>
>>
>> 1. Re:  Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant (Paul Allen)
>>
>
>>>>> Paul, thanks for your comment, I see your point
> What do you think of ?
> free_water = <anyone,consumer>
> free_water:container =<own,establishment>
>
>    2. Re:  Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
>>       (Joseph Eisenberg)
>>
>> >>>> Joseph, makes sense , I removed free_water:table
> What do you think of ?
> free_water = <anyone,consumer>
> free_water:container =<own,establishment>
>
> For the European Water Project, we would include cafes, bars, restaurants
> with
> free_water = anyone
> free_water:container =own
>
> and the other three combinations seem to sufficiently cover the other use
> cases
>
> Best regards,
>
> Stuart
>
>
>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 20:58:09 +0000
>> From: Paul Allen <[hidden email]>
>> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
>>         <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [Tagging]  Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars,
>>         restaurant
>> Message-ID:
>>         <
>> [hidden email]>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 at 20:52, Hauke Stieler <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > What does "must_consume" mean?
>> >
>>
>> free_water=must_consume means exactly what it says.  Anybody who
>> enters will be given free water and they MUST consume it.  Or else.  So
>> we need a tag to specify the punishment if they refuse to consume the
>> free water (such as being ejected, fined, or killed).
>>
>> Not, in my opinion, a good value for the key.
>>
>> --
>> Paul
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 06:49:47 +0900
>> From: Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]>
>> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
>>         <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [Tagging]  Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars,
>>         restaurant
>> Message-ID:
>>         <CAP_2vPjBzwK0uUtCrabDp4G=
>> [hidden email]>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>
>> free_water_table= or free_water:table= will be confusing for places
>> that sell take-out food and don't have tables, for examples small
>> fast-food restaurants, convenience shops, etc.
>>
>> The word "customers" should be included, since what you are trying to
>> specify is that "you can only get free water if you buy something
>> else", and "customers" is the standard term in Openstreetmap for this
>> idea.
>>
>> - Joseph Eisenberg
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

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Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
Am Mo., 13. Jan. 2020 um 22:51 Uhr schrieb Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]>:
free_water_table= or free_water:table= will be confusing for places
that sell take-out food and don't have tables, for examples small
fast-food restaurants, convenience shops, etc.

The word "customers" should be included, since what you are trying to
specify is that "you can only get free water if you buy something
else", and "customers" is the standard term in Openstreetmap for this
idea.


if you have to buy something in order to get "free" water, it isn't free, is it? It's included. Like you get "free bread" when you buy something to eat. Or "free table service" (if the service fee is included in the price). Or "free bathroom usage" (for customers). 

Cheers
Martin

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Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant

marc marc
Le 14.01.20 à 10:00, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit :
> if you have to buy something in order to get "free" water,
> it isn't free, is it? It's included.

you're right, I often make that remark in everyday life.
but in osm terminology, how would you inform the private and free
swimming pool for hotel guests ? access=customers + fee=no
or fee=included ?
nearly nobody use https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/fee=included
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Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant

marc marc
In reply to this post by Hauke Stieler
> free_water:container = <bring_your_own, provided>

bring_your_own is very explicit.
but "provided" or "establishment" is ambiguous.
from my experience, drinking a free glass of water in a cafe is not at
all the same as receiving a container filled with water (I have never
encountered this case).
so the choice should be between values like your_own_takeaway_container
<> on_site
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Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant

SimonPoole
In reply to this post by European Water Project


Am 13.01.2020 um 21:23 schrieb European Water Project:

Thanks Hauke

The namespace scheme could work. It is very elegant and clean. The meaning of customer in container is a bit confusing... as it can be a paying or non paying customer. 

I could see : 
free_water = <anyone,must_consume>
free_water:container =<own,establishment>
free_water:table=<yes/no>  

How long does it typically take for the tag allocation decision process to be completed?  Do you have an example wiki proposal page ? 

To be clear "formal" approval is completely optional, documenting what you are using is best practice, discussing what could work and trying to find a consensus is wise.

Currently I see the usual problem that the discussion is trying to solve the general problem. Is anybody actually interested in if free water is dispensed in other than bring your own container/bottle scenarios?

Simon


Best regards,

Stuart 

 

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 19:57:02 +0100
From: Hauke Stieler <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Tagging]  Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars,
        restaurant
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi Stuart,

> The proposal below does not seem optimal, but if that is what is decided
> we will write wiki instructions in this manner.
No decisions have been made so far. Currently all these mails just
contain ideas and discussions.

I'm personally a fan of the namespace scheme, the one with the ":"
separating parts of a tag. You'll find this e.g. on addresses:

        addr:street=*
        addr:city=*
        addr:housenumber=*
        ...

Or also for parking situations:

        parking:lane=*
        parking:lane:left=*
        parking:condition=*
        ...

This semantic separation of a key creates a nice structure and organizes
this huge collection of possible tags into groups.

> I still prefer free_water_refill=yes/no  free_water_table=yes/no
Because the beginning of these two tags are the same, for me personally
it's a reason to change them into "free_water:..." tags.

Using this scheme, I can also imagine the following tags (just ideas,
the keys and values are probably not optimal):

free_water=<yes/no/customers>
free_water:container=<customer/supplier/both>
free_water:table=<yes/no>
(maybe more...)

However, in the end, there must probably be a tag proposal (a wiki page
describing how the final tags should look like, what they exactly mean,
when to use them, what use-cases do they have, etc.). Everybody can vote
for or against the proposal, therefore it's in the end on the community
to decide what tags become "official".

Hauke

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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 20:01:56 +0100
From: European Water Project <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Tagging]  Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, (Martin
        Koppenhoefer)
Message-ID:
        <CAK=tSVf_Da=AT=[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

>
>    2. Re:  Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, (Martin Koppenhoefer)
>
>>>>> Martin, Italy is amazing. Apparently there are more than 100,000
fountains in Italy. On the 24th of April, we are planning a fountain hunt
in Rome with the My-D.org. We should be 20 people including locals (just in
case you live there).
re: amenity=drinking_water
France is complicated and the lobbies have made almost all perfectly good
water fountains labelled "non potable". Just across the borders in
Switzerland and Italy all the fountains are good to drink......

Price can be an incentive, but unless the waste producer pays all true
indirect externalities the cost will always be minimal for PET.


> 3. Re:  Tagging Free Water for cafés,  bars, (Philip Barnes)
>

>>>>>>>Philip, Yes, like the US and France. We believe that it should be
that way everywhere. No one should have to create single-use waste to keep
themselves hydrated.

>
>
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 17:50:20 +0100
> From: Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]>
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
>         <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Tagging]  Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars,
> Message-ID:
>         <
> [hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Am Mo., 13. Jan. 2020 um 17:29 Uhr schrieb European Water Project <
> [hidden email]>:
>
> > While I understand your point of view, many are trying hard to change
> > legislation and might see it as more than a marketing gimmick but rather
> a
> > right to be able to drink without generating single-use waste. Belgium,
> > Luxembourg,  Switzerland and Italy are not obliged to serve tap water
> with
> > a meal like in France where we live.
> >
>
>
> from a practical point of view, living in Italy, I have not yet encountered
> a place that would have refused (free) tap water. Great thing about Italy
> is that you can get free water in many places right on the street, from
> drinking fountains 24/7. amenity=drinking_water is rank 5 on Italy's
> taginfo stats, almost double the amount of petrol stations :)
> https://taginfo.geofabrik.de/europe/italy/keys/amenity#values
>
> In France, drinking_water is amenity rank 23, so rightfully your government
> has found other ways to provide you with water ;-)
> https://taginfo.geofabrik.de/europe/france/keys/amenity#values
>
> Not to get me wrong, I do agree there is benefit from political action, and
> there are issues related to water. What also matters is the actual price
> you have to pay for (bottled) water. It will always be completely unrelated
> to drinking water prices, but while in Italy a bottle of water is typically
> 1 EUR (away from airports), or 2 EUR (in the restaurant, there are
> exceptions), in Germany they will typically charge you 2,50 and more for
> just a glass of water. In Switzerland, they sell water for 5 SFR a bottle
> on the motorway, and 4 EUR and more is not unseen on German motorways as
> well.
>
> Cheers
> Martin
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> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 18:12:56 +0000
> From: Philip Barnes <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Tagging]  Tagging Free Water for cafés,  bars,
> Message-ID:
>         <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> In GB it is the law that licensed premises provide free drinking water.
>
> So that , means all pubs, most restaurants and some cafes.
>
> Phil (trigpoint)
>
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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 21:02:10 +0100
From: Markus <[hidden email]>
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
        <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] amenity=tourist_bus_parking
Message-ID:
        <CAJJ-S94-nzLN9GmFq=[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hi John

On Thu, 9 Jan 2020 at 22:37, John Willis via Tagging
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/36.31737/139.61884
>
> Here is a good example of the kind of situations I have in my area:
>
> - a service area with two different lots, car and HGV (bus/lorry) adjacent to each other, with a satellite bathroom for the busses.
> - service area is segregated by motorway direction, and labeled as such. This makes duplicates of everything.  They are usually not adjacent, but are in this case.
> - dedicated separated handicap parking
> - separate “permissive” lots for people outside the toll system to park and enter on foot.
> - loading zones for deliveries (untagged).

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/758265853

amenity=parking
access=customers
bus=designated
hgv=designated
motorcar=no
parking=surface
ref=🚛🚌
surface=asphalt

As amenity=parking currently is defined as a car park, data users
would assume that this is a car park for customers (they likely don't
evaluate motorcar=no).

Even if amenity=parking weren't exclusive for cars, but for any
vehicles, your tagging doesn't mean what you likely had in mind (i.e.
a customer parking for buses and HGVs), but a designated parking
facility for buses and HGVs (not only for customers) that other
vehicles except cars (e.g. tourist buses or motorcycles) can use if
they are customers.

In order that data understand your example and before we've found a
solution for parkings for multiple vehicle classes, i would recommend
to tag it as follows:

amenity=parking
access=no
bus=customers
hgv=customers

Regards

Markus



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Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant

Jyri-Petteri Paloposki
On 14.1.2020 13.06, Simon Poole wrote:
> Currently I see the usual problem that the discussion is trying to solve
> the general problem. Is anybody actually interested in if free water is
> dispensed in other than bring your own container/bottle scenarios?

IMO this is also an interesting concept for use in bars, night clubs
etc. – I myself try to choose establishments that provide free water at
least when buying a drink, preferably also without buying a drink at the
same time. In Finland it is quite usual to provide it, but since it
isn't required, many establishments also charge for a glass of water,
silly as it is.

Best regards,
--
Jyri-Petteri Paloposki

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Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant

European Water Project
In reply to this post by European Water Project


   1. Re:  Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
      (Jyri-Petteri Paloposki)
 
>>>>> Jyri-Petteri  Yes. information regarding on whether or not a restaurant serves "free" water to a paying customer, is not part of our project is important and is a factor in my decision on whether or not to go to a restaurant (when in Switzerland).  

I started the proposal page, but apologize for not know how to properly fill it out. 
Please feel free to make amendments, or send me an email directly with instructions of what I should add (or remove). 

 
Best regards,

Stuart 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 13:24:06 +0200
From: Jyri-Petteri Paloposki <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Tagging]  Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars,
        restaurant
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

On 14.1.2020 13.06, Simon Poole wrote:
> Currently I see the usual problem that the discussion is trying to solve
> the general problem. Is anybody actually interested in if free water is
> dispensed in other than bring your own container/bottle scenarios?

IMO this is also an interesting concept for use in bars, night clubs
etc. – I myself try to choose establishments that provide free water at
least when buying a drink, preferably also without buying a drink at the
same time. In Finland it is quite usual to provide it, but since it
isn't required, many establishments also charge for a glass of water,
silly as it is.

Best regards,
--
Jyri-Petteri Paloposki



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