Tagging a site with "Luxury Lodges"

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Tagging a site with "Luxury Lodges"

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I hesitate to raise my simple question in such an expert forum, but I want to tag correctly and cannot find the guidance I need in the Wiki.

How should I tag Willow Park in Salford Priors, near Evesham (UK)?  https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/135928544

Their website http://willowparkluxurylodges.co.uk/ talks of luxury lodges in the countryside.  You cannot live there permanently, because the site is only open for 11 months of the year.  Instead, you buy a “lodge” on the site and use it for holidays and weekends away (from the dirty, noisy city, where you live, I assume).

Individual Structures. 

The “lodges” are not “building=static_caravan”, as there is no pretence that they can be moved (See their website for pictures).  They are not really “building=cabin”, as they are not “…a small, roughly built house usually with a wood exterior “.   I suppose they are “building=bungalow”, although (to me, at least) that would be more appropriate for a permanent dwelling that is single storey.   

The Entire Site. 

The site is currently tagged as “tourism=caravan_site”, but it is not for tourists (“A person who is travelling or visiting a place for pleasure”. - https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/tourist ) and is not a caravan site (or RV Park, as the iD Editor calls it), because you cannot arrive and park your Caravan, Tent, or RV there.

My inclination would be to tag is as some sort of leisure site, but what sort???

It does not fit the Wiki definition of a “Leisure=Park” -  “Open, green area for recreation, usually municipal”.

Any advice, please?

Peter 


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Re: Tagging a site with "Luxury Lodges"

Mateusz Konieczny-3
22 May 2019, 16:45 by [hidden email]:

I hesitate to raise my simple question in such an expert forum, but I want to tag correctly and cannot find the guidance I need in the Wiki.

Feel free to ask any questions how things should be tagged!

How should I tag Willow Park in Salford Priors, near Evesham (UK)?  https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/135928544

Their website http://willowparkluxurylodges.co.uk/ talks of luxury lodges in the countryside.  You cannot live there permanently, because the site is only open for 11 months of the year.  Instead, you buy a “lodge” on the site and use it for holidays and weekends away (from the dirty, noisy city, where you live, I assume).

Is it actually similar to buying a house? In that case it sounds to me like a residential area,
used as a secondary vacation home, not some hotel/caravan site and I would use landuse=residential.

Or is this "buying" a legal loophole and you may arrive, "buy" lodge, use it for two weeks and "sell" it,
with all this "buying" and "selling" being a legal fiction?

In that case it would be probably an expensive hotel.


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Re: Tagging a site with "Luxury Lodges"

Joseph Eisenberg
Looking at the website, it appears that you buy a plot of land from the developer and then pick out a “manufactured home”, a house built in a Works (factory) and then delivered to the site in 2 pieces. The “luxury” part is very debatable, but I agree that these are a step up from a static_caravan: they are more than twice as wide as a trailer and look to have a permanent foundation, no wheels.

But the only thing luxury about these is the price. 190,000 pounds for 1000 square feet?!

It’s advertised just like a normal residential area, and claims to have won a “Warick village of the year” award. So I would use landuse=residential for the area, and building=house for each structure.

Joseph 

On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 12:07 AM Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
22 May 2019, 16:45 by [hidden email]:

I hesitate to raise my simple question in such an expert forum, but I want to tag correctly and cannot find the guidance I need in the Wiki.

Feel free to ask any questions how things should be tagged!

How should I tag Willow Park in Salford Priors, near Evesham (UK)?  https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/135928544

Their website http://willowparkluxurylodges.co.uk/ talks of luxury lodges in the countryside.  You cannot live there permanently, because the site is only open for 11 months of the year.  Instead, you buy a “lodge” on the site and use it for holidays and weekends away (from the dirty, noisy city, where you live, I assume).

Is it actually similar to buying a house? In that case it sounds to me like a residential area,
used as a secondary vacation home, not some hotel/caravan site and I would use landuse=residential.

Or is this "buying" a legal loophole and you may arrive, "buy" lodge, use it for two weeks and "sell" it,
with all this "buying" and "selling" being a legal fiction?

In that case it would be probably an expensive hotel.

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Re: Tagging a site with "Luxury Lodges"

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 23. May 2019, at 00:27, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> It’s advertised just like a normal residential area, and claims to have won a “Warick village of the year” award. So I would use landuse=residential for the area, and building=house for each structure.


the village of the year price was won by the poor village where this holiday site landed, who knows if they would still have won with the lodge park already in place ;-)

While they might be called „house“, why not „building=lodge“? The fact they are poorly insulated, prefabricated wooden single floor structures is better reflected by that word.

Cheers, Martin
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Re: Tagging a site with "Luxury Lodges"

Paul Allen
On Thu, 23 May 2019 at 06:41, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

While they might be called „house“, why not „building=lodge“? The fact they are poorly insulated, prefabricated wooden single floor structures is better reflected by that word.

building=luxury_shanty

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Re: Tagging a site with "Luxury Lodges"

Clifford Snow
I the US we call them manufactured homes. They are trucked to the site, often split lengthwise into two pieces. Once on site, they place them on a foundation then remove the wheels from underneath. Most are relatively inexpensive to purchase. The real money make is the owner of the land that rents out the tiny lot. 

These communities can be a mix of mobile home, aka caravans, and manufactured homes. From aerial imagery the individual units the only real difference is usually the roof. Manufactured home may have a peaked roof where the mobile homes are usually flat.

I've tagged both a building=static_caravan

Best,
Clifford

On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 2:56 AM Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, 23 May 2019 at 06:41, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

While they might be called „house“, why not „building=lodge“? The fact they are poorly insulated, prefabricated wooden single floor structures is better reflected by that word.

building=luxury_shanty

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Paul

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Re: Tagging a site with "Luxury Lodges"

Joseph Eisenberg
I personally would not tag a >20 foot wide manufactured home as a static caravan

I thought that building=static_caravan was meant for (single-wide) trailers / “mobile homes” without permanent foundations, since these could still be moved without demolishing a foundation or breaking the building into pieces.

If a manufactured home is placed on a permanent foundation, on land that is owned rather than rented, then it is just a different way of building a house, no?

Similarly, a fancy modern house or apartment building might be built out of prefab modules or modified shipping containers.

I’d say the defining difference is whether or not there is a permanent foundation

But I confess this is not my area of expertise

On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 12:09 AM Clifford Snow <[hidden email]> wrote:
I the US we call them manufactured homes. They are trucked to the site, often split lengthwise into two pieces. Once on site, they place them on a foundation then remove the wheels from underneath. Most are relatively inexpensive to purchase. The real money make is the owner of the land that rents out the tiny lot. 

These communities can be a mix of mobile home, aka caravans, and manufactured homes. From aerial imagery the individual units the only real difference is usually the roof. Manufactured home may have a peaked roof where the mobile homes are usually flat.

I've tagged both a building=static_caravan

Best,
Clifford

On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 2:56 AM Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, 23 May 2019 at 06:41, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

While they might be called „house“, why not „building=lodge“? The fact they are poorly insulated, prefabricated wooden single floor structures is better reflected by that word.

building=luxury_shanty

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Paul

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Re: Tagging a site with "Luxury Lodges"

dieterdreist
I would also not classify them mainly according to the way they are constructed. There are all ranges of quality with buildings that are manufactored, from really cheap to really expensive.

Cheers,
Martin


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Re: Tagging a site with "Luxury Lodges"

Paul Johnson-3
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 6:24 PM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
I personally would not tag a >20 foot wide manufactured home as a static caravan

I'm just amused that staying in a trailer park is considered a high end tourism/glamping experience in the UK instead of a cheap form of permanent housing.  Granted, my exposure to this phenomenon is limited to this thread and Damn Dog Games covering Furcation 2018 on YouTube.
 
I thought that building=static_caravan was meant for (single-wide) trailers / “mobile homes” without permanent foundations, since these could still be moved without demolishing a foundation or breaking the building into pieces.

I would tend to agree.  Or like the situation I was in for a few years in the middle of this decade where it's literally a caravan that is permanently parked.  I've not exactly considered them permanent enough to warrant tagging (even though the specific one I lived in for a few years is still parked in the exact same spot it was when I lived there, and I legitimately question whether or not the landing gear is actually capable of retracting or the brakes releasing if they even wanted to move it at this point, since I believe it's sat on the same spot all but the first two years after it was built).  I consider "mobile home" and "manufactured home" to be synonymous.

If a manufactured home is placed on a permanent foundation, on land that is owned rather than rented, then it is just a different way of building a house, no?

I would classify a mobile/manufactured home as a permanent building, whether or not the owner took the wheels off and built a foundation.  Entire multistorey buildings are only slightly less likely to ever move again than mobile homes, and about as likely to survive transport (based on Mercy Hospital Joplin being picked up and moved around 3 meters by a tornado a few years ago, and seeing old mobile homes being moved; in both cases the only real next stop is a garbage dump).

Similarly, a fancy modern house or apartment building might be built out of prefab modules or modified shipping containers.

I’d say the defining difference is whether or not there is a permanent foundation

I think that's not a bad starting place, though I'd be willing to call any mobile home not rigged up for immediate tow to be a permanent structure.  See also: Portable classrooms.  The leaky, 20 year old one I went to 6th grade in (along with it's sister unit that was planted immediately adjacent, scheduled to be removed "any year now" back in the 90s) is now about 45 years old, basically a black mold lawsuit waiting to happen and still in daily use back in Portland.

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Re: Tagging a site with "Luxury Lodges"

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Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 20:42:24 -0500
From: Paul Johnson <[hidden email]>
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging a site with "Luxury Lodges"
Message-ID:
    <CAMPM96rQrP3u=[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 6:24 PM Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>> I personally would not tag a >20 foot wide manufactured home as a static
>> caravan

Agreed

> I'm just amused that staying in a trailer park is considered a high end
> tourism/glamping experience in the UK instead of a cheap form of permanent
> housing.  Granted, my exposure to this phenomenon is limited to this thread
> and Damn Dog Games covering Furcation 2018 on YouTube.

We have to remember that they were characterised as "Luxury" by the people trying to sell them at £190,000!  I was not proposing to tag them with "quality=luxury" Ha Ha!

>> I thought that building=static_caravan was meant for (single-wide)
>> trailers / “mobile homes” without permanent foundations, since these could
>> still be moved without demolishing a foundation or breaking the building
>> into pieces.

> I would tend to agree.  Or like the situation I was in for a few years in
> the middle of this decade where it's *literally* a caravan that is
> permanently parked.  I've not exactly considered them permanent enough to
> warrant tagging (even though the specific one I lived in for a few years is
> still parked in the exact same spot it was when I lived there, and I
> legitimately question whether or not the landing gear is actually capable
> of retracting or the brakes releasing if they even wanted to move it at
> this point, since I believe it's sat on the same spot all but the first two
> years after it was built).  I consider "mobile home" and "manufactured
> home" to be synonymous.

>> If a manufactured home is placed on a permanent foundation, on land that is
>> owned rather than rented, then it is just a different way of building a
>> house, no?

> I would classify a mobile/manufactured home as a permanent building,
> whether or not the owner took the wheels off and built a foundation.
> Entire multistorey buildings are only slightly less likely to ever move
> again than mobile homes, and about as likely to survive transport (based on
> Mercy Hospital Joplin being picked up and moved around 3 meters by a
> tornado a few years ago, and seeing old mobile homes being moved; in both
> cases the only real next stop is a garbage dump).

Agreed.  

>> Similarly, a fancy modern house or apartment building might be built out of
>> prefab modules or modified shipping containers.
>
>> I’d say the defining difference is whether or not there is a permanent
>> foundation

> I think that's not a bad starting place, though I'd be willing to call any
> mobile home not rigged up for immediate tow to be a permanent structure.
> See also: Portable classrooms.  The leaky, 20 year old one I went to 6th
> grade in (along with it's sister unit that was planted immediately
> adjacent, scheduled to be removed "any year now" back in the 90s) is now
> about 45 years old, basically a black mold lawsuit waiting to happen and
> still in daily use back in Portland.

I would like to tag them as some form of leisure facility, because they are supposed to be used intermittently for weekends / holidays.  However, I also understand the idea of "tag what you see".

Out of interest, I looked up the planning permission granted for the site. It is for a number of "caravans", which can only be occupied for 11 months of the year.  Originally, this was 8 months, but it was later increased.  One "caravan" (for the site manager) can be occupied all year, but the owner is now applying for permission for 9 of them to be occupied all year (with no real justification - IMHO) 

It seems that the local community do not want a permanent development there, but the owner (selling them at £190,000 per plot, remember) wants to turn them from caravans into permanent bungalows. 

Anyway, I have now tagged the individual structures as "bungalow"s and the site as "Residential".

Thanks to all who have  taken the time to contribute and assist.

Peter

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Re: Tagging a site with "Luxury Lodges"

Paul Johnson-3
On Sat, May 25, 2019 at 5:03 PM Peter Neale via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'm just amused that staying in a trailer park is considered a high end
> tourism/glamping experience in the UK instead of a cheap form of permanent
> housing.  Granted, my exposure to this phenomenon is limited to this thread
> and Damn Dog Games covering Furcation 2018 on YouTube.

We have to remember that they were characterised as "Luxury" by the people trying to sell them at £190,000!  I was not proposing to tag them with "quality=luxury" Ha Ha!

I suppose if the alternative is, say, camping in my pickup truck, then yeah, a mobile home is relatively high end luxury.  But, you know, I mean, just a quick Google converts that to US$242,000.  For that kind of money, I could get 2-4 single family homes that exceed local tornado building codes.  I suppose I should be flattered that rich people consider American poverty luxury or something, but, that's like, the weirdest possible flex ever.  I mean, again, I was laughing a bit when Corey Coyote on Damn Dog Games was saying they were going to a camping con, and it appears to be in a "vacation resort" that, in America, would be probably most generously called "a well-maintained blue-collar trailer park", and Corey's reaction is that (at least from his UK exposure) it is.  Though I'm pretty sure my MIL has the same floorplan, and well, it's probably generously a $20,000 trailer on a $400/mo space.  Sure, it had a community center and a pool, but, hey, any relatively decent trailer park that isn't on a floodplain does.
 
I would like to tag them as some form of leisure facility, because they are supposed to be used intermittently for weekends / holidays.  However, I also understand the idea of "tag what you see".

I'd probably tag the site itself as a caravan site, especially if they let you bring your own caravan.  The midwestern US seems to have a lot of trailer parks that have a genuine mix of RVs (caravans) and mobile homes/manufactured homes.  At least locally, both fall under the category of vehicles (my MIL's place has a current license plate mounted on the back as required by state law, even though it hasn't moved in 20 years and I'm about 85% sure it doesn't have wheels and definitely wouldn't survive making it to the street, much less down it)
 
Out of interest, I looked up the planning permission granted for the site. It is for a number of "caravans", which can only be occupied for 11 months of the year.  Originally, this was 8 months, but it was later increased.  One "caravan" (for the site manager) can be occupied all year, but the owner is now applying for permission for 9 of them to be occupied all year (with no real justification - IMHO) 

Honestly if these "caravans" are mobile homes, there's no reason they can't be occupied until they fall apart.
 
It seems that the local community do not want a permanent development there, but the owner (selling them at £190,000 per plot, remember) wants to turn them from caravans into permanent bungalows. 

I'd honestly want to see him pass a 15 panel drug test asking that much.  Especially if he's retaining rights to the land it's on (typical in the US, you might own the mobile home but the land below it could be an entirely different story).

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