Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

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Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

Konrad Lischka
Hello,

the proper tagging of kindergarten grounds in Germany really makes me think. 
The problem: We have a lot of operators that are independent charitable entities (for example registered associations see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registered_association_(Germany) but belong to charitable organisation too like Caritas or Paritätischer. 

My solution would be:
amenity=kindergarten
operator=[Name of theregistered association]
operator:type=charitable
organisation=[organisation name like Caritas]

What do you think?

Two points:
(1) operator:type
but it is not the same. In Germany the tax authorities give the charitable status only to some organisation based on a few defined areas of work in the social or educational field. Non-Profis are more commons, but not the same.

(2) organisation=
The use seems to be rather uncodified



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Re: Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

Tom Pfeifer
On 07.01.2019 16:53, Konrad Lischka wrote:

> My solution would be:
> amenity=kindergarten
> operator=[Name of theregistered association]
> operator:type=charitable

operator:type seems to be established with 180k uses. Plausible to me.

> organisation=[organisation name like Caritas]

What you are trying to tag is the umbrella organisation of the operator,
kind of the operator of the operator,
not the "organisation of the kindergarten".

Thus organisation=* seems a bad fit to me.

> (2) organisation=
> alltough there is some use: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/organisation

usage is very low (161) and unstructured regarding the values. Would not count on that.

Thus something like
operator:umbrella=* would be more suitable, or more self-explanatory but longer
operator:umbrella_organisation=*

(Langenscheidt: de: Dachverband = en: umbrella organization )
tom

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Re: Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Konrad Lischka

Am Mo., 7. Jan. 2019 um 16:55 Uhr schrieb Konrad Lischka <[hidden email]>:
operator:type=charitable
organisation=[organisation name like Caritas]

What do you think?




if it is a religion related operator, I usually also add religion and denomination tags, i.e. in your Caritas example it would be
religion=christian
denomination=catholic

Regarding the "charitable" status, this would be by country, right? The (tax?) status of the operating organization in the country where the feature is located? Or where the seat of the organization is?

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

voschix


if it is a religion related operator, I usually also add religion and denomination tags, i.e. in your Caritas example it would be
religion=christian
denomination=catholic

I would not be sure how to handle this:
Are these "access" tags, in the sense that (in the example) the kindergarten only accepts Roman Catholic children, or is it only indicating the religious background of the institution, but they accept children with other religious backgrounds as well.

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Re: Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

Tom Pfeifer
On 07.01.2019 19:08, Volker Schmidt wrote:

>     if it is a religion related operator, I usually also add religion and denomination tags, i.e. in
>     your Caritas example it would be
>     religion=christian
>     denomination=catholic
>
>
> I would not be sure how to handle this:
> Are these "access" tags, in the sense that (in the example) the kindergarten only accepts Roman
> Catholic children, or is it only indicating the religious background of the institution, but they
> accept children with other religious backgrounds as well.

I have never considered the 'religion' tag as an access tag. Typically I can freely enter a PoW, and
listen to the ceremony, without being a member of that community or believe in that religion.

Similarly, educational institutions in my scope mostly accept children with different background, in
particular if the receive state funding. E.g. Ireland, the majority of the schools is operated by
the catholic church, and as a recipient of public funding they have to accept everybody, equally.

Back to Konrad's question, any better ideas to tag the name of the operator's umbrella organisation?
I drafted:
 > operator:umbrella=* would be more suitable, or more self-explanatory but longer
 > operator:umbrella_organisation=*


tom

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Re: Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

Paul Allen
On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 22:14, Tom Pfeifer <[hidden email]> wrote:

I have never considered the 'religion' tag as an access tag. Typically I can freely enter a PoW, and
listen to the ceremony, without being a member of that community or believe in that religion.

Getting off-topic here, but that does not apply to all religions.  And not to all denominations
of Christianity.  You may find that a Mosque may not be happy if a non-Muslim walks in, and a
Kingdom Hall may not be happy if a non-Jehovah's Witness walks in.  Some denominations
of some religions view the entry of those not of their brand of faith (infidels) to be sacrilegious
and/or blasphemous.  In some places the punishments can be quite severe, so you should
avoid blithely walking into a place of worship during a religious ceremony unless you are sure
it is OK to do so.

--
Paul


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Re: Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

Joseph Eisenberg
“You may find that a Mosque may not be happy if a non-Muslim walks in”

I’m not aware of any mosques that prohibit non-Muslims, outside of the holy cities (Mecca/Medina), though you would need to dress appropriately and act respectfully.

Jehovas’ Witnesses also welcome new people (aka potential converts).

Mormon temples have places that are off-limits, however - even to ordinary Mormons.

There are some Hindu temples that prohibit women, and many places of worship expect men and women to be segregated.

So it’s not an access tag.


On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 7:44 AM Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 22:14, Tom Pfeifer <[hidden email]> wrote:

I have never considered the 'religion' tag as an access tag. Typically I can freely enter a PoW, and
listen to the ceremony, without being a member of that community or believe in that religion.

Getting off-topic here, but that does not apply to all religions.  And not to all denominations
of Christianity.  You may find that a Mosque may not be happy if a non-Muslim walks in, and a
Kingdom Hall may not be happy if a non-Jehovah's Witness walks in.  Some denominations
of some religions view the entry of those not of their brand of faith (infidels) to be sacrilegious
and/or blasphemous.  In some places the punishments can be quite severe, so you should
avoid blithely walking into a place of worship during a religious ceremony unless you are sure
it is OK to do so.

--
Paul

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Re: Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

Kevin Kenny-3
On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 5:59 PM Joseph Eisenberg
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> “You may find that a Mosque may not be happy if a non-Muslim walks in”
>
> I’m not aware of any mosques that prohibit non-Muslims, outside of the holy cities (Mecca/Medina), though you would need to dress appropriately and act respectfully.
>
> Jehovas’ Witnesses also welcome new people (aka potential converts).
>
> Mormon temples have places that are off-limits, however - even to ordinary Mormons.
>
> There are some Hindu temples that prohibit women, and many places of worship expect men and women to be segregated.
>
> So it’s not an access tag.


Yeah, an access tag is orthogonal to religion=*. Almost any religion
has some areas with restricted access.

Many cloisters, both Eastern and Roman have inner areas that are
accessible only to the vowed members of that community.

Most if not all Eastern churches have inner sanctuaries that are
entered only by ordained clergy of at least the rank of deacon, and
close doors or draw curtains to hide the most sacred moments of their
liturgies from the view of even the congregation.

Many religions have various concepts of ritual purity, and
non-adherents may defile the house unless they conform with particular
requirements. (Some of these have outer regions of their houses of
worship where believers can conduct various purification rituals
before entering the sanctuaries.)

Many religions have services, or portions of services, that are open
to all, but specific rites that are reserved to the initiates.

In summary, access=* cannot be determined at all from religion=*

----

General off-topic comments:

For almost any faith, taking the attitude, "I am not of your people. I
do not yet know your God. Can you teach me?" works wonders. "What must
one do to respect the house?" "What of your ceremonies may someone who
is not a committed member attend?" "Is there anything in particular
that I might not know of that could give offense?"

For a mosque, add questions like: "Can you teach me to make wudu? Can
I begin to learn the words of as-salat? May I listen to the Quran?"

For a synagogue, I already sport a scruffy beard, so if I don a
kippah, I'm usually not suspect. I can ask: "Is it your custom that
all must wear tallit (or tefilin) in the sanctuary, and if so, is it
possible for me to borrow one (a pair)?"

Even farther off-topic:

If a long-distance hiker wants to be treated like royalty in most of
rural America, it works wonders to ask a shop clerk, postmaster, or
other contact on a Saturday: "Where do you worship? I'm afraid all I
have is what's in my backpack, so I won't be able to dress properly
for a church service, does your community welcome travelers? Is there
anywhere in this town that you'd recommend to buy a meal/stay the
night? Oh, God bless you!" If you're sincere, it's not inconceivable
that you'll be treated to a home-cooked meal, spend the night in some
church member's spare room, and have the opportunity to clean yourself
and your gear, and be the center of attention at the coffee hour
following Sunday services. These rural religious groups are often as
xenophobic as all get-out in the abstract, but when presented with a
real, live, stranger who respects them, drop it almost at once and are
unbelievably welcoming. (Of course, the price of this is that you have
to *be* respectful, not *act* respectful. They can tell the
difference.)

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Re: Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

Warin
In reply to this post by Konrad Lischka
On 08/01/19 02:53, Konrad Lischka wrote:
Hello,

the proper tagging of kindergarten grounds in Germany really makes me think. 
The problem: We have a lot of operators that are independent charitable entities (for example registered associations see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registered_association_(Germany) but belong to charitable organisation too like Caritas or Paritätischer. 

My solution would be:
amenity=kindergarten
operator=[Name of theregistered association]
operator:type=charitable
organisation=[organisation name like Caritas]

What do you think?

Two points:
(1) operator:type
but it is not the same. In Germany the tax authorities give the charitable status only to some organisation based on a few defined areas of work in the social or educational field. Non-Profis are more commons, but not the same.

(2) organisation=
The use seems to be rather uncodified



Many shops and fuel station are operated by some remote entity too. OSM uses "brand" for that.
Not certain that fits here but it is a similar situation?

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Re: Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

Graeme Fitzpatrick
In reply to this post by Kevin Kenny-3




On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 at 09:53, Kevin Kenny <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 5:59 PM Joseph Eisenberg
These rural religious groups are often as xenophobic as all get-out in the abstract, but when presented with a
real, live, stranger who respects them, drop it almost at once and are unbelievably welcoming. 

Doesn't that partially depend on the number of banjos playing in the background? :-)

Thanks

Graeme
 

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Re: Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

LeTopographeFou
In reply to this post by Tom Pfeifer
Personnaly I don't think I would map umbrella organisations... I would put operator and operator:wikidata and let Wikidata update partnerships between associations. It is not a property of the kindergarten, it is a property of the operator.

LeTopographeFou

  Message original  
De: [hidden email]
Envoyé: 7 janvier 2019 11:14 PM
À: [hidden email]
Répondre à: [hidden email]
Objet: Re: [Tagging] Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

On 07.01.2019 19:08, Volker Schmidt wrote:

>     if it is a religion related operator, I usually also add religion and denomination tags, i.e. in
>     your Caritas example it would be
>     religion=christian
>     denomination=catholic
>
>
> I would not be sure how to handle this:
> Are these "access" tags, in the sense that (in the example) the kindergarten only accepts Roman
> Catholic children, or is it only indicating the religious background of the institution, but they
> accept children with other religious backgrounds as well.

I have never considered the 'religion' tag as an access tag. Typically I can freely enter a PoW, and
listen to the ceremony, without being a member of that community or believe in that religion.

Similarly, educational institutions in my scope mostly accept children with different background, in
particular if the receive state funding. E.g. Ireland, the majority of the schools is operated by
the catholic church, and as a recipient of public funding they have to accept everybody, equally.

Back to Konrad's question, any better ideas to tag the name of the operator's umbrella organisation?
I drafted:
> operator:umbrella=* would be more suitable, or more self-explanatory but longer
> operator:umbrella_organisation=*

tom

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Re: Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by voschix


sent from a phone

> On 7. Jan 2019, at 19:08, Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Are these "access" tags, in the sense that (in the example) the kindergarten only accepts Roman Catholic children, or is it only indicating the religious background of the institution, but they accept children with other religious backgrounds as well.


these are not access tags, they convey a connection of a feature to a specific religion, similar as a place of worship. I would expect them to accept other children as well, but often the parents would not want to send their offspring to a place with a strong influence of a foreign religion. There are also edge cases, e.g. a kindergarten operated by scientology in Germany: scientology is not a charity in Germany and I am not sure whether they are recognized as a religion, but I think they are not, while in other countries they might be


Cheers, Martin




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Re: Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

Marc Gemis
In reply to this post by LeTopographeFou
While I was first thinking of brand like Warin, I think this is the
better solution. Just as, we do not map the share holders of companies
(even when they are other companies) on shops, man_made=works object
etc., we typically do not map properties of the operator (besides
brand).

m.

On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 9:22 AM Topographe Fou <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Personnaly I don't think I would map umbrella organisations... I would put operator and operator:wikidata and let Wikidata update partnerships between associations. It is not a property of the kindergarten, it is a property of the operator.
>
> LeTopographeFou
>
>   Message original
> De: [hidden email]
> Envoyé: 7 janvier 2019 11:14 PM
> À: [hidden email]
> Répondre à: [hidden email]
> Objet: Re: [Tagging] Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations
>
> On 07.01.2019 19:08, Volker Schmidt wrote:
> >     if it is a religion related operator, I usually also add religion and denomination tags, i.e. in
> >     your Caritas example it would be
> >     religion=christian
> >     denomination=catholic
> >
> >
> > I would not be sure how to handle this:
> > Are these "access" tags, in the sense that (in the example) the kindergarten only accepts Roman
> > Catholic children, or is it only indicating the religious background of the institution, but they
> > accept children with other religious backgrounds as well.
>
> I have never considered the 'religion' tag as an access tag. Typically I can freely enter a PoW, and
> listen to the ceremony, without being a member of that community or believe in that religion.
>
> Similarly, educational institutions in my scope mostly accept children with different background, in
> particular if the receive state funding. E.g. Ireland, the majority of the schools is operated by
> the catholic church, and as a recipient of public funding they have to accept everybody, equally.
>
> Back to Konrad's question, any better ideas to tag the name of the operator's umbrella organisation?
> I drafted:
> > operator:umbrella=* would be more suitable, or more self-explanatory but longer
> > operator:umbrella_organisation=*
>
> tom
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

dieterdreist


Am Mi., 9. Jan. 2019 um 05:17 Uhr schrieb Marc Gemis <[hidden email]>:
While I was first thinking of brand like Warin, I think this is the
better solution. Just as, we do not map the share holders of companies
(even when they are other companies) on shops, man_made=works object
etc., we typically do not map properties of the operator (besides
brand).



I am not sure which property of the kindergarten you are refering to with this text, but if it is about the operator being related to a religious entity I would reject the idea that this could be seen as an isolated property of the operator and isn't also a property of the facility.

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

Marc Gemis
I was referring to the 'organisation'.

On Wed, Jan 9, 2019 at 2:40 PM Martin Koppenhoefer
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
> Am Mi., 9. Jan. 2019 um 05:17 Uhr schrieb Marc Gemis <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> While I was first thinking of brand like Warin, I think this is the
>> better solution. Just as, we do not map the share holders of companies
>> (even when they are other companies) on shops, man_made=works object
>> etc., we typically do not map properties of the operator (besides
>> brand).
>
>
>
>
> I am not sure which property of the kindergarten you are refering to with this text, but if it is about the operator being related to a religious entity I would reject the idea that this could be seen as an isolated property of the operator and isn't also a property of the facility.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
Jan 7, 2019, 11:58 PM by [hidden email]:
“You may find that a Mosque may not be happy if a non-Muslim walks in”

I’m not aware of any mosques that prohibit non-Muslims

Nonmuslims are forbidden to enter nearly all mosques in Morocco.

I started discussion how to tag this some time ago, with access=adherents as the best candidate
to tag that.


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Re: Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

Paul Allen


On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 at 18:13, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
Jan 7, 2019, 11:58 PM by [hidden email]:
 
Nonmuslims are forbidden to enter nearly all mosques in Morocco.

I started discussion how to tag this some time ago, with access=adherents as the best candidate
to tag that.

Sounds good to me.  Better than access=customers, which is about as close as we can come
with existing values.

--
Paul


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Re: Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3


sent from a phone

> On 9. Jan 2019, at 19:11, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I started discussion how to tag this some time ago, with access=adherents as the best candidate
> to tag that


probably also woman=no

Cheers, Martin
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Re: Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

Joseph Eisenberg
Most mosques here in Indonesia have a separate men and women’s section. (Actually the churches do too!)
On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 9:41 AM Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


sent from a phone

> On 9. Jan 2019, at 19:11, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I started discussion how to tag this some time ago, with access=adherents as the best candidate
> to tag that


probably also woman=no

Cheers, Martin
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