Tagging restaurants and categories

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Tagging restaurants and categories

blc
I've noticed that category searching on my Garmin Nuvi that it will not
find Dunkin' Donuts when searching for Donut/Bagel in the USA.  I ended up
finding out that if an amenity is tagged amenity=fast_food the restaurant
will automatically be placed in the fast food category and nothing else.
The rub is that pretty much all donut/bagel shops necessarily are "fast
food" because the food needs to be prepared well in advance, waiting a
half hour or more for yeast to rise for fresh prepartion would be very
inconvenient.

According to
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Map_On_Garmin/POI_Types it seems
that perhaps only one category can be added per restaurant.  In this case
I wonder if it would be better to have categorization slightly different
where fast_food would be a later conditional, so that (in the USA)
Fazoli's (fast semicasual italian), Dunkin' Donuts, Einstein Bagels,
Winchell's, Lamar's Donuts, Krispy Kreme Donuts, Pizza Hut (fast casual
pizza), etc. should show up as their food category rather than simply as
fast food.

This is a bit tougher to manage with the automatic categorization with the
template tags when editing in iD.  I found a few independent donut shops
and having a hard time deciding whether to mark them as fast_food as they
definitely are, but they will subsequently not show up as a donut/bagel
shop.

Comments, or perhaps nobody really uses these things to find shops
anymore...
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Re: Tagging restaurants and categories

Gerd Petermann
Hi blc,

not sure what this is about. If you want to discuss tagging of OSM objects this is the wrong list. If you want to know out how to tweak your garmin map style to use a different POI for a given type of shop you may be right here.

Gerd

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Von: mkgmap-dev <[hidden email]> im Auftrag von blc <[hidden email]>
Gesendet: Montag, 2. März 2020 21:07
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: [mkgmap-dev] Tagging restaurants and categories

I've noticed that category searching on my Garmin Nuvi that it will not
find Dunkin' Donuts when searching for Donut/Bagel in the USA.  I ended up
finding out that if an amenity is tagged amenity=fast_food the restaurant
will automatically be placed in the fast food category and nothing else.
The rub is that pretty much all donut/bagel shops necessarily are "fast
food" because the food needs to be prepared well in advance, waiting a
half hour or more for yeast to rise for fresh prepartion would be very
inconvenient.

According to
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Map_On_Garmin/POI_Types it seems
that perhaps only one category can be added per restaurant.  In this case
I wonder if it would be better to have categorization slightly different
where fast_food would be a later conditional, so that (in the USA)
Fazoli's (fast semicasual italian), Dunkin' Donuts, Einstein Bagels,
Winchell's, Lamar's Donuts, Krispy Kreme Donuts, Pizza Hut (fast casual
pizza), etc. should show up as their food category rather than simply as
fast food.

This is a bit tougher to manage with the automatic categorization with the
template tags when editing in iD.  I found a few independent donut shops
and having a hard time deciding whether to mark them as fast_food as they
definitely are, but they will subsequently not show up as a donut/bagel
shop.

Comments, or perhaps nobody really uses these things to find shops
anymore...
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Re: Tagging restaurants and categories

Andy Townsend
In reply to this post by blc
On 02/03/2020 20:07, blc wrote:

 >  Comments, or perhaps nobody really uses these things to find shops
anymore...

Well I certainly do!

 > This is a bit tougher to manage with the automatic categorization
with the template tags when editing in iD.

First things first, I'd try and get the tagging right in OSM itself (via
iD or whichever other editor you're using).  For a donut place I'd have
expected amenity=fast_food, but maybe for some amenity=cafe would be OK
for some.  I'm guessing a bit here because I'm from the UK and donuts
aren't really a thing here - we have healthy alternatives like Greggs'
Steak Bakes and Pukka Pies instead :)

 > I found a few independent donut shops and having a hard time deciding
whether to mark them as fast_food as they definitely are, but they will
subsequently not show up as a donut/bagel shop.

Well "what things show up as" on a Garmin depends on what rules you
write in in the style used to create the Garmin map.  I've not tried it,
but I guess that you could write some fairly complicated rules that
identified donut places and mapped them to "0x0d" from
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Map_On_Garmin/POI_Types . It'd
be up to the people packaging the "standard" style whether that
incorporated those rules, but there's nothing stopping you creating your
own style with them.

 > it seems that perhaps only one category can be added per restaurant.

I don't think that creating multiple Garmin POIs per OSM POI is possible
using mkgmap "out of the box".  I did experiment with it ages ago, but
didn't go anywhere with it as it didn't really seem beneficial - you've
always got the option of searching "all food and drink" to cut across
subcategories.*

Best Regards,

Andy

* on my Garmin anyway - I'm aware that different models vary.


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Re: Tagging restaurants and categories

blc-2
On Mon, 2 Mar 2020, Andy Townsend wrote:

>> This is a bit tougher to manage with the automatic categorization with the
> template tags when editing in iD.
>
> First things first, I'd try and get the tagging right in OSM itself (via iD
> or whichever other editor you're using).? For a donut place I'd have expected
> amenity=fast_food, but maybe for some amenity=cafe would be OK for some.? I'm
> guessing a bit here because I'm from the UK and donuts aren't really a thing
> here - we have healthy alternatives like Greggs' Steak Bakes and Pukka Pies
> instead :)

Yeah, I thought that there was an issue if a particular POI is tagged for
both amenity=fast_food and cuisine=donut -- if this is the case, then
currently as far as I know the default is that the shop will show up as
fast_food and will not show up as their food type (donut).

If this actually can be configured with mkgmap options, then this is the
way that needs to be pursued.  I thought this was hardcoded during the map
conversion as this seems a bit odd that the default was to lump everything
into fast_food.

>> it seems that perhaps only one category can be added per restaurant.
>
> I don't think that creating multiple Garmin POIs per OSM POI is possible
> using mkgmap "out of the box".? I did experiment with it ages ago, but didn't
> go anywhere with it as it didn't really seem beneficial - you've always got
> the option of searching "all food and drink" to cut across subcategories.*
>

It took me a while to figure out why when I searched for donuts why I
couldn't find Dunkin' or Krispy Kreme.  The only way to find these is to
look through "all fast food" and not "bagel/donuts" which can be annoying
if it's 5AM and want to get some donuts on the way to work, plus Krispy
Kreme doesn't even contain the word "Donut" in their shop name and I'd
totally miss this as a donut shop.

It was when I took a look at the tagging for some of the independent,
non-chain donut shops that did show up -- 100km away which would not be
acceptable for a morning run, and then some experiments in OSM that I
found out how to get a particular donut shop to show up on the Garmin.

The only reason why I brought up the iD issue is that if someone creates a
new POI for Dunkin' in OSM it will contain both amenity=fast_food
and cuisine=donut in OSM.  If amenity=fast_food was forcibly changed to
amenity=cafe, the option to "upgrade" the tag in iD will show up and
automatically set amenity=fast_food back, so this would be a unpleasant
fix (plus most/all of the thousands of Dunkin' Donuts in OSM will already
have amenity=fast_food - while it can be scripted to change all thousands
of the shops or use of #maproulette, I don't think this is the right way
to tag things.)

Similar issues will show up for stores like Panda Express (fast_food/
Chinese) where I think many people at least in the USA would choose this
option if they wanted Chinese food even though it is fast_food.  As I
don't know all locales I'm sure there are a lot of people that would find
fast_food as an acceptable option when looking for a specific type of
food.

This is why I believe that the ultimate "fix" had to be a change in
the consumption of OSM data and would require a mkgmap change.  Again I
could be wrong on this account and a mkgmap config change is all that's
needed, as once again I'm depending on someone else's mkgmap run, and this
would be something I should forward onto the mkgmap builder once I find
out how to do it.

Thanks, and glad people are still using this feature on their GPS instead
of depending on their cellular phones!
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Re: Tagging restaurants and categories

Gerd Petermann
blc-2 wrote
> This is why I believe that the ultimate "fix" had to be a change in
> the consumption of OSM data and would require a mkgmap change.  Again I
> could be wrong on this account and a mkgmap config change is all that's
> needed, as once again I'm depending on someone else's mkgmap run, and this
> would be something I should forward onto the mkgmap builder once I find
> out how to do it.

First you have to find out if the map was created with mkgmap. Garmins ships
OSM maps which are created with a different tool.
If the map was created with mkgmap, try  to contact the map creator. The map
creator is maintaining a so called style file which is responsible for the
conversion between OSM and Garmin IMG format.
The mkmap package comes with a default style which uses these rules:

amenity=fast_food & cuisine=* {add name='${cuisine|subst:"_=> "}'} [*0x2a07*
resolution 24]
amenity=fast_food [*0x2a07* resolution 24]

So an object tagged with amenity=fast_food will result in a POI of type
*0x2a07*.
There are more detailed rules to handle amenity=restaurant :

amenity=restaurant & cuisine!=*
    [0x2a00 resolution 24]
...
cuisine=bagel | cuisine=donut
    [*0x2a0d* resolution 24]


So, maybe we should change the default rules for amenity=fast_food to treat
cuisine=bagel and cuisine=donut in the same way as with amenity=restaurant
to produce *0x2a0d*?

Gerd



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Re: Tagging restaurants and categories

Ticker Berkin
Hi all

It relatively easy for a style to generate multiple POI for the same
point, in this case one "Fast Food" and one "Bagel/Donut".

The default style doesn't do this, but it makes a choice about which is
shown in this and similar cases, carefully commented to show how to get
the other:

# Have the following 2 lines here rather than after cuisine=... so
that, for amenity=fast_food, cuisine is ignored
amenity=fast_food & cuisine=* {add name='${cuisine|subst:"_=> "}'}
    [0x2a07 resolution 24]
amenity=fast_food [0x2a07 resolution 24]

...

cuisine=bagel | cuisine=donut
    [0x2a0d resolution 24]

...

Have the following 2 lines here rather than before cuisine=... so that,
for amenity=fast_food, cuisine is respected
#amenity=fast_food & cuisine=* {add name='${cuisine|subst:"_=> "}'}
    [0x2a07 resolution 24]
#amenity=fast_food [0x2a07 resolution 24]

Ticker


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Re: Tagging restaurants and categories

nwillink

Multiple tags seem to occur more frequently in OSM , particularly in polygons and to a lesser extent in lines. Luxembourg is a good example.

I've had to adapt my style to ensure woods were plotted when combined with another tag.

ie

Polygons

combining natural , landuse , leisure etc

natural=wood & landuse=grass

leisure & natural / landuse

leisure=nature_reserve and landuse=forest

Lines

waterway=stream & boundary=administrative

I'm not sure how the default style deals with this  and perhaps it doesn't matter.

regards

Nick

On 03/03/2020 08:12, Ticker Berkin wrote:
Hi all

It relatively easy for a style to generate multiple POI for the same
point, in this case one "Fast Food" and one "Bagel/Donut".

The default style doesn't do this, but it makes a choice about which is
shown in this and similar cases, carefully commented to show how to get
the other:

# Have the following 2 lines here rather than after cuisine=... so
that, for amenity=fast_food, cuisine is ignored
amenity=fast_food & cuisine=* {add name='${cuisine|subst:"_=> "}'}
    [0x2a07 resolution 24]
amenity=fast_food [0x2a07 resolution 24]

...

cuisine=bagel | cuisine=donut
    [0x2a0d resolution 24]

...

Have the following 2 lines here rather than before cuisine=... so that,
for amenity=fast_food, cuisine is respected
#amenity=fast_food & cuisine=* {add name='${cuisine|subst:"_=> "}'}
    [0x2a07 resolution 24]
#amenity=fast_food [0x2a07 resolution 24]

Ticker


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Re: Tagging restaurants and categories

blc-2
Thanks all, I see this in the default style file and now have the answer:
need a change to the style.  I see the comments in the file - this
satisfies the query.

Looking through my locale and the categories available on my Garmin, the
bagel/donut shops are the only one that seems to be an outlier.  I've
always known this area has a lot of health nuts and for the longest time
the only Dunkin' Donuts went out of business, but there is definitely one
in town once more among a lot of other independent shops, just weird none
show up.

I suppose I'll leave this up to whoever whether to change the default or
not.  I only know of two chain restaurants that also get binned into
fast_food but people in the USA may or may not consider them "fast food
quality" that may or may not be better to show up in their category...

Thanks.

On Tue, 3 Mar 2020, Pinns UK wrote:

> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 08:50:02 +0000
> From: Pinns UK <[hidden email]>
> Reply-To: Development list for mkgmap <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [mkgmap-dev] Tagging restaurants and categories
>
>
> Multiple tags seem to occur more frequently in OSM , particularly in
> polygons and to a lesser extent in lines. Luxembourg is a good example.
>
> I've had to adapt my style to ensure woods were plotted when combined with
> another tag.
>
> ie
>
> Polygons
>
> combining natural , landuse , leisure etc
>
> natural=wood & landuse=grass
>
> leisure & natural / landuse
>
> leisure=nature_reserve and landuse=forest
>
> Lines
>
> waterway=stream & boundary=administrative
>
> I'm not sure how the default style deals with this? and perhaps it doesn't
> matter.
>
> regards
>
> Nick
>
> On 03/03/2020 08:12, Ticker Berkin wrote:
>
> Hi all
>
> It relatively easy for a style to generate multiple POI for the same
> point, in this case one "Fast Food" and one "Bagel/Donut".
>
> The default style doesn't do this, but it makes a choice about which is
> shown in this and similar cases, carefully commented to show how to get
> the other:
>
> # Have the following 2 lines here rather than after cuisine=... so
> that, for amenity=fast_food, cuisine is ignored
> amenity=fast_food & cuisine=* {add name='${cuisine|subst:"_=> "}'}
>     [0x2a07 resolution 24]
> amenity=fast_food [0x2a07 resolution 24]
>
> ...
>
> cuisine=bagel | cuisine=donut
>     [0x2a0d resolution 24]
>
> ...
>
> Have the following 2 lines here rather than before cuisine=... so that,
> for amenity=fast_food, cuisine is respected
> #amenity=fast_food & cuisine=* {add name='${cuisine|subst:"_=> "}'}
>     [0x2a07 resolution 24]
> #amenity=fast_food [0x2a07 resolution 24]
>
> Ticker
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mkgmap-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/mkgmap-dev
>
>
>

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Re: Tagging restaurants and categories

AnkEric
This post was updated on .
I had a similar issue with [amenity=cafe] or [amenity=pub] also serving "bar
meals".
In the Netherlands, name is often something like: "Eetcafé Xxxx". ("Eet" to
be translated as "Eat").

Also some Mappers prefer to Tag a "pub" as "cafe" which is Rendered as a
"cup of coffee".

IMO:
"cafe" means: coffee, tea, pastry shop, lunchroom. And 90% no: beer or wine
(alcohol).
"pub" means: Public place serving alcohol.

I did Resolve - as Renderer - for 90% by:

(amenity=cafe | amenity=pub) & name ~ '.*([Ee]etcaf[eé]).*'         { set
amenity=restaurant }
(amenity=cafe)                       & name ~ '.*([Cc]af[eé]).*'            
{ set amenity=pub }

(amenity=pub)  & (cuisine=*  & cuisine!=coffee_shop | food=yes)   { set
amenity=restaurant }
(amenity=cafe) & (cuisine=*  & cuisine!=coffee_shop)                    {
set amenity=restaurant }

FWIW:
IMO "fast_food" is not only related to "time needed for preparation" (even
in a star restaurant some courses are prepared in a couple of minutes).
When waiting for boarding a ferry, fast_food is the only option. I need to
have "dinner" in a short time, therefore: fast_food.




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