Tagging small areas of bushes, flowers, non-woody perennials, succulents, etc

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Tagging small areas of bushes, flowers, non-woody perennials, succulents, etc

Joseph Eisenberg
In the discussion about `barrier=hedge` areas, it is clear that
mappers want a way to tag small areas of bushes and shrubs, and not
everyone is happy about using natural=scrub for this case.

Currently there is a tag landuse=grass for small areas of managed
grass, but this might be considered to exclude other non-woody herbs.
And leisure=garden is usually considered the whole area of a garden,
rather than being limited to a certain type of vegetation.

I would suggest that we need a more developed system of tags for
micro-mapping small areas of plants, not just woody-stemmed bushes and
shrubs, but also semi-annuals, herbaceous perenials (e.g. in the
tropics) and annual flowers and herbs.

This would also help with problems like using village_green for all
sorts of areas: see discussions and examples in
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:landuse%3Dvillage_green

Rather than just discussing how the tag small areas of bushes or
hedges, how about how to tag this area of flowers:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Vg6.jpg

Or a garden bed planted with these:
https://www.thaigardendesign.com/bird-of-paradise-strelitzia/ - or
these: https://www.wikilawn.com/flowers/ornamental-red-ginger-plant-alpinia-purpurata/

Or this bed full of succulent plants, in a semi-arid region:
https://www.finegardening.com/app/uploads/sites/finegardening.com/files/images/spotlight-collection/resize_of_pa230150.jpg

Are people micro-mapping areas such as these?

How specific should the tagging be?

- Joseph Eisenberg

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Re: Tagging small areas of bushes, flowers, non-woody perennials, succulents, etc

Graeme Fitzpatrick
If talking about them, or trying to describe them to somebody, I would call all of those examples either garden beds or flower beds.

When I've mapped similar beds as part of a park, I've gone with leisure=garden  https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure=garden?uselang=en-AU working on this "A garden can also be a part of a park and might be for example fenced or distinguishable by its vegetation."

On that page, though, I just noticed a fairly recent amendment to include reference to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dflowerbed - used ~4000 times so possibly worth paying attention to!

& also the undocumented man_made=flowerbed, which is also used 311 times.

 Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Tagging small areas of bushes, flowers, non-woody perennials, succulents, etc

Jeroen Hoek
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
On 09-02-20 03:33, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

> In the discussion about `barrier=hedge` areas, it is clear that
> mappers want a way to tag small areas of bushes and shrubs, and not
> everyone is happy about using natural=scrub for this case.
>
> Currently there is a tag landuse=grass for small areas of managed
> grass, but this might be considered to exclude other non-woody herbs.
> And leisure=garden is usually considered the whole area of a garden,
> rather than being limited to a certain type of vegetation.
>
> I would suggest that we need a more developed system of tags for
> micro-mapping small areas of plants, not just woody-stemmed bushes and
> shrubs, but also semi-annuals, herbaceous perenials (e.g. in the
> tropics) and annual flowers and herbs.

Agreed. This is basically what the landcover proposal set out to do.

`landuse=*`, `amenity=*`, and `leisure=*` all (primarily) describe the
human use of the area, whereas the tagging of patches of grass, bushes,
flower beds, etc. describes what covers the land (usually within one of
the human-use tags, e.g., `leisure=park`).

> This would also help with problems like using village_green for all
> sorts of areas: see discussions and examples in
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:landuse%3Dvillage_green
>
> Rather than just discussing how the tag small areas of bushes or
> hedges, how about how to tag this area of flowers:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Vg6.jpg
>
> Or a garden bed planted with these:
> https://www.thaigardendesign.com/bird-of-paradise-strelitzia/ - or
> these: https://www.wikilawn.com/flowers/ornamental-red-ginger-plant-alpinia-purpurata/
>
> Or this bed full of succulent plants, in a semi-arid region:
> https://www.finegardening.com/app/uploads/sites/finegardening.com/files/images/spotlight-collection/resize_of_pa230150.jpg

By adopting the landcover-tag there will be a clear base-tag for
anything that qualifies as landcover. Introducing new tags should be a
lot more straightforward. Certainly compared to the current ambiguous
set of `landuse=grass`, `natural=scrub`, and `barrier=hedge`.

> Are people micro-mapping areas such as these?
>
> How specific should the tagging be?

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/landcover makes a
valiant attempt at answering that, but the landcover-tag is by its
nature as a single top-level tag for landcover extensible.

Also:

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/landcover#values

I found the two cases of `landcover=rubber` a particularly creative form
of micro-mapping, and couldn't figure out why anyone would cover the
ground in rubber until I saw that it was used inside of a
`leisure=playground`, where it makes sense.

Of course, as anyone who supports the landcover-proposal knows,
landcover-tags cannot really be used on their own at the moment. If I
map in the Netherlands, where an initial import used `landuse=grass`,
`natural=scrub`, and `natural=forest` to broadly map land cover, I have
to double-tag these features with the tags that get rendered on
OSM-Carto, *and* the `landcover=*` tags I want to support, because not
doing that would mean that in the eyes of many users I leave empty areas
where there once was (roughly drawn) colour. That breaks my rule of
making a nice map.

It all boils down to what Paul Allen rightly calls joined-up thinking:

* Many mappers wish to map right down to the level of flower beds and
shrubs, and especially in urban settings this often results in rather
nicely mapped areas

* The landcover-proposal exists, is well thought out, and the top three
tags exceed 10000 instances of use each, despite not being rendered, and
not being supported as presets in JOSM and Id, which makes sense,
because they're not rendered as opposed to their legacy counterparts.

* Carto-OSM points out inconsistencies in the use of `barrier=hedge`,
attempts to resolve the situation but breaks existing use, but any
proposed solution to allow for the rendering of hedges drawn as areas is
shot down because it would mean converting tags from something that did
render (and now renders brokenly) to something that doesn't render, and
likely won't render for years.

So once again any progress on this front stalls indefinitely, mappers
move on and keep on using whatever renders for these features, and
eventually all hedges mappes as areas will be replaced by
`natural=scrub`, because it renders something green and isn't broken,
which is a step forward from the current situation.

Most of the time new tags can be introduced gradually and organically,
starting with unrendered use, modest proposals, and eventually presets
in the editors and rendering on OSM-Carto. For some more complex
situations like this landcover/hedges problem, a more integrated
approach may be more fruitful.

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Re: Tagging small areas of bushes, flowers, non-woody perennials, succulents, etc

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg


sent from a phone

> Il giorno 9 feb 2020, alle ore 03:35, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
>
> In the discussion about `barrier=hedge` areas, it is clear that
> mappers want a way to tag small areas of bushes and shrubs, and not
> everyone is happy about using natural=scrub for this case.


you are writing about a general tag that describes the kind of plants in a neutral way, while I would consider “hedge” to have functional implications (separating) and be intentionally planted.


Cheers Martin



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Re: Tagging small areas of bushes, flowers, non-woody perennials, succulents, etc

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Graeme Fitzpatrick


sent from a phone

Il giorno 9 feb 2020, alle ore 04:53, Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> ha scritto:

On that page, though, I just noticed a fairly recent amendment to include reference to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dflowerbed - used ~4000 times so possibly worth paying attention to!

& also the undocumented man_made=flowerbed, which is also used 311 times.


of these 2 tags, I would clearly prefer man_made=flowerbed for a flower bed, and would expect it to be within a landuse like residential, highway, etc.
It doesn’t seem a case for a distinct landuse tag.

Cheers Martin 


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Re: Tagging small areas of bushes, flowers, non-woody perennials, succulents, etc

Joseph Eisenberg
In reply to this post by Graeme Fitzpatrick
Thank you for the link to landuse=flowerbed. That tag seems to have
some acceptance in a variety of countries, and works quite well for
areas of flowering plants.

However, we still may need a way to tag ornamental plants that do not
produce significant flowers, for example, succulents and plants with
ornamental leaves but no flowers. I would not call a decorative bed of
cacti a "flowerbed", but perhaps this is an American distinction?

For an area of ornamental perennial woody plants like bushes, shrubs
and similar, would the whole area be a "shrubbery" or a "hedge" or
something else in British English?

What about an area with short, non-woody plants used as groundcover,
but which are not grasses nor similar-looking plants? Could
landuse=grass still be used, or should this only be used for actual
lawns?

Do we need a tag for a bed of ornamental herbs which are neither
flowers nor grasses, e.g. ferns, decorative coleus, Canna, Caladiums?
Examples: https://www.thespruce.com/top-foliage-plants-4021628

- Joseph Eisenberg

On 2/9/20, Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:

> If talking about them, or trying to describe them to somebody, I would call
> all of those examples either garden beds or flower beds.
>
> When I've mapped similar beds as part of a park, I've gone with
> leisure=garden
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure=garden?uselang=en-AU
> working
> on this "A garden can also be a part of a park and might be for example
> fenced or distinguishable by its vegetation."
>
> On that page, though, I just noticed a fairly recent amendment to include
> reference to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dflowerbed -
> used ~4000 times so possibly worth paying attention to!
>
> & also the undocumented man_made=flowerbed, which is also used 311 times.
>
>  Thanks
>
> Graeme
>

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Re: Tagging small areas of bushes, flowers, non-woody perennials, succulents, etc

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> Il giorno 9 feb 2020, alle ore 09:29, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
>
> However, we still may need a way to tag ornamental plants that do not
> produce significant flowers, for example, succulents and plants with
> ornamental leaves but no flowers. I would not call a decorative bed of
> cacti a "flowerbed", but perhaps this is an American distinction?


to me, a flowerbed is a place that is purposefully set aside for growing ornamental plants. I would use man_made=flowerbed for any such place, regardless of the species that are currently planted there, and maybe even if there wasn’t nothing growing for the moment.

Cheers Martin
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Re: Tagging small areas of bushes, flowers, non-woody perennials, succulents, etc

Tagging mailing list
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg

I've wondered about this for a while. There is a need to map these features both within large gardens (particularly those which are tourist attractions), parkland, campus locations and even typical townscapes.

For reference I wrote about botantical gardens some time ago: http://sk53-osm.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-quartet-of-botanical-gardens.html

My working notes on which features may need to be mapped are here . Please note that although I use the key garden (by analogy to things like golf), I am aware that this probably clashes far too much with existing usage, and that another key will be needed.

I'm currently looking fairly intensively at these features in my local university campus. Looking for something else I came across detailed plans for planting of areas associated with new buildings including lists of plants and layout by the landscape designer. My starting point was to check my identifications of plants, but of course I now have a good place to try out any tagging scheme.

The main components are:

  • Regular beds, often alongside a path of building. Some are planted with perennial herbs, but many are planted with shrubs, and increasinly ornamental grasses are used.
  • Areas of wild flowers. These are predominantly native wild flowers, introduced in a special turf (£20 sq m) rather than the mixes which are commonly described as wild flower which are usually colourful annuals from North America. These areas are only cut once a year.
  • Numerous lawns, amenity grassland and a playing field (recreation ground area)
  • Many low hedges planted with Yew (so-called "instant hedge" ordered by the metre), various cultivars of Cherry Laurel, various Berberis species, Box-leaved Honeysuckle, Christmas Box. Some of these grade into areas of shrubs.
  • A few taller hedges planted with a mix of native species (Blackthorn, Hazel, Hawthorn, Rose).
  • Shrub areas including smallish trees (Magnolia, Wintersweet), Bamboos, low-spreading Juniper and Spanish Gorse. More extensive single species plantings of Cotoneaster, Hazel and various Dogwoods Cornus.
  • A major tree avenue planted with Scholar's Tree (was Sophora japonica but has changed it's name).
  • Numerous specimen trees & areas more densly planted with trees to the point they can be mapped as woods
  • Some trees (not many) are planted in tree pits and the area of the pit is covered with a non-climbing Ivy
  • Many smaller buildings have climbers planted at their foot with a trellis attached to the building. In these cases the associated bed is small.
  • Large specimen plants which are notionally herbs. Notably New Zealand Flax Phormium and Pampas Grass Cortaderia selloana.
  • Wetland planting (Phragmites, Typha, Carex) now more or less entirely naturalised and thus suitable for natural=wetland tagging.
  • Planting interspersed with ornamental pebbles
  • A very small number of containers (planters) and raised beds
  • Limited areas of persistent tall herb vegetation (mainly close to wetland features) something where I dont think we have a commonly used natural tag.
  • Extensive areas around the fenced perimeter which have may be from 1-5 m thick consisting of a mix of small trees, large shrubs and other woody plants (Brambles, Honeysuckle, Agave). This would originally have been a border planted at regular intervals with shrubs (Cherrylaurel, Acuba, Forsythia, Elder) which gradually became overgrown with self-sown plants (Cherries, Sycamore, Birch, Bramble) and plants escaping from adjoining gardens. At a stretch this could be described as natural=scrub.

Having written this list I obviously ought to turn it into a blog post and illustrate each of these feature.

Jerry

On 09/02/2020 02:33, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
In the discussion about `barrier=hedge` areas, it is clear that
mappers want a way to tag small areas of bushes and shrubs, and not
everyone is happy about using natural=scrub for this case.

Currently there is a tag landuse=grass for small areas of managed
grass, but this might be considered to exclude other non-woody herbs.
And leisure=garden is usually considered the whole area of a garden,
rather than being limited to a certain type of vegetation.

I would suggest that we need a more developed system of tags for
micro-mapping small areas of plants, not just woody-stemmed bushes and
shrubs, but also semi-annuals, herbaceous perenials (e.g. in the
tropics) and annual flowers and herbs.

This would also help with problems like using village_green for all
sorts of areas: see discussions and examples in
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:landuse%3Dvillage_green

Rather than just discussing how the tag small areas of bushes or
hedges, how about how to tag this area of flowers:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Vg6.jpg

Or a garden bed planted with these:
https://www.thaigardendesign.com/bird-of-paradise-strelitzia/ - or
these: https://www.wikilawn.com/flowers/ornamental-red-ginger-plant-alpinia-purpurata/

Or this bed full of succulent plants, in a semi-arid region:
https://www.finegardening.com/app/uploads/sites/finegardening.com/files/images/spotlight-collection/resize_of_pa230150.jpg

Are people micro-mapping areas such as these?

How specific should the tagging be?

- Joseph Eisenberg

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Re: Tagging small areas of bushes, flowers, non-woody perennials, succulents, etc

Peter Elderson
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
The landcover key covers this nicely. 
For hedge barrier areas, tag barrier=hedge for the perimeter, then landcover=hedge to indicate the hedge covers the area (do not land a balloon there and don't plan to walk through it).

The combined information is then exactly the same as barrier=hedge, area=yes, which is the established tagging.

Fr gr Peter Elderson


Op zo 9 feb. 2020 om 03:35 schreef Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]>:
In the discussion about `barrier=hedge` areas, it is clear that
mappers want a way to tag small areas of bushes and shrubs, and not
everyone is happy about using natural=scrub for this case.

Currently there is a tag landuse=grass for small areas of managed
grass, but this might be considered to exclude other non-woody herbs.
And leisure=garden is usually considered the whole area of a garden,
rather than being limited to a certain type of vegetation.

I would suggest that we need a more developed system of tags for
micro-mapping small areas of plants, not just woody-stemmed bushes and
shrubs, but also semi-annuals, herbaceous perenials (e.g. in the
tropics) and annual flowers and herbs.

This would also help with problems like using village_green for all
sorts of areas: see discussions and examples in
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:landuse%3Dvillage_green

Rather than just discussing how the tag small areas of bushes or
hedges, how about how to tag this area of flowers:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Vg6.jpg

Or a garden bed planted with these:
https://www.thaigardendesign.com/bird-of-paradise-strelitzia/ - or
these: https://www.wikilawn.com/flowers/ornamental-red-ginger-plant-alpinia-purpurata/

Or this bed full of succulent plants, in a semi-arid region:
https://www.finegardening.com/app/uploads/sites/finegardening.com/files/images/spotlight-collection/resize_of_pa230150.jpg

Are people micro-mapping areas such as these?

How specific should the tagging be?

- Joseph Eisenberg

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Re: Tagging small areas of bushes, flowers, non-woody perennials, succulents, etc

Tagging mailing list
In reply to this post by dieterdreist


On Feb 9, 2020, at 5:09 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

and not
everyone is happy about using natural=scrub for this case.

+1

When I go to a garden, there is not natural=scrub growing in manicured rows along the garden paths, separating the flower beds.

that’s like using natural=scree for a pedestrian area.  



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Re: Tagging small areas of bushes, flowers, non-woody perennials, succulents, etc

Allroads
In reply to this post by Peter Elderson
+1 landcover
 
+1 on a hierarchy index and a well and a thoughtful methodology.
 
landuse, should describe more the use of the land.
 
For example:
A road, this include the footway, cycleway, the verge, the barriers, traffic_islands, the trees.
The verge, that is a part of the use, landuse=highway, the area is area:highway=verge, landcover=grass, landcover fits in nicely. And how it is managed can be set.
The hedge as, a separation between road parts, can be a part of landuse=highway, area:barrier=hedge, hedge_type=? landcover=shrubbery/or else, species. And how it is managed can be set.
The hedges on traffic_island, roundabouts, is a part of the landuse=highway , is a part of a area:highway=traffic_island, is the area:barrier=hedge, hedge_type=? landcover=shrubbery/or else
, species.
The same for flowerbeds, etc.
The apron at a roundabout.
 
At the end all parts must be named.
 
greenery versus shrubbery, is it the same or is the one a part of the other? hierarchy thinking.
Sent: Sunday, February 9, 2020 11:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging small areas of bushes, flowers, non-woody perennials, succulents, etc
 
The landcover key covers this nicely.
 


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