[Talk-transit] Buses in Brighton, UK

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[Talk-transit] Buses in Brighton, UK

Stephen Dawkins
Hi

I was just starting to map the bus routes in Brighton, UK, when I noticed that it's missing a whole bunch of bus stops. Is the any objection to bulk importing either the NaPTAN data to fill in all the missing stops?

Reading the mailing lists, it seems the NaPTAN data is not ideal, but surely it's better than having no data at all.

For stops that already exist, I'd like to enhance them with their NaPTAN identifiers, but I won't attempt to move them (the assumption being the existing data is probably more accurate).

I'm fairly new to OSM and was wondering if there is any issue in doing this?

Thanks & Regards
Stephen

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Re: [Talk-transit] Buses in Brighton, UK

Richard Mann-2
When the people were importing NaPTAN in the first place, they insisted that someone locally should request it (and take on the responsibility of sorting out conflicts). I guess no-one volunteered in Brighton. 

It's possible someone is still watching the relevant wiki page:

(so if you edit it with a request for import, they may respond).

I found it easier to import the lot, and merge where required.

Richard

On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 10:43 AM, Stephen Dawkins <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi

I was just starting to map the bus routes in Brighton, UK, when I noticed that it's missing a whole bunch of bus stops. Is the any objection to bulk importing either the NaPTAN data to fill in all the missing stops?

Reading the mailing lists, it seems the NaPTAN data is not ideal, but surely it's better than having no data at all.

For stops that already exist, I'd like to enhance them with their NaPTAN identifiers, but I won't attempt to move them (the assumption being the existing data is probably more accurate).

I'm fairly new to OSM and was wondering if there is any issue in doing this?

Thanks & Regards
Stephen

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Re: [Talk-transit] Buses in Brighton, UK

Stephen Dawkins
I did see that page, but there are a bunch of requests from 2010, that don't seem to be touched, and certainly nothing recently, so I was just going to do it myself.

Regards
Stephen

On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 10:54 AM, Richard Mann <[hidden email]> wrote:
When the people were importing NaPTAN in the first place, they insisted that someone locally should request it (and take on the responsibility of sorting out conflicts). I guess no-one volunteered in Brighton. 

It's possible someone is still watching the relevant wiki page:

(so if you edit it with a request for import, they may respond).

I found it easier to import the lot, and merge where required.

Richard

On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 10:43 AM, Stephen Dawkins <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi

I was just starting to map the bus routes in Brighton, UK, when I noticed that it's missing a whole bunch of bus stops. Is the any objection to bulk importing either the NaPTAN data to fill in all the missing stops?

Reading the mailing lists, it seems the NaPTAN data is not ideal, but surely it's better than having no data at all.

For stops that already exist, I'd like to enhance them with their NaPTAN identifiers, but I won't attempt to move them (the assumption being the existing data is probably more accurate).

I'm fairly new to OSM and was wondering if there is any issue in doing this?

Thanks & Regards
Stephen

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Re: [Talk-transit] Buses in Brighton, UK

Chris Hill-6
In reply to this post by Stephen Dawkins
I had the NaPTAN data imported for my local patch. The data is based on submissions from each local authority and I think the quality varies. I checked about a hundred stops and ended up surveying a couple of thousand bus stops because the quality was so poor. Locations were missing, in hopelessly wrong places and the meta data was often wrong. The local authorities here don't seem to believe in sharing data so you may have a completely different result. If you plan to survey some or all of the stops then using NaPTAN data as a hint to find them is useful. I suggest you check out a few first to assess the quality before any import.

You should email talk-gb and possibly the imports ml to see what people think, this ml doesn't have a wide audience

Cheers, Chris

On 30 June 2015 10:43:20 GMT+01:00, Stephen Dawkins <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi

I was just starting to map the bus routes in Brighton, UK, when I noticed that it's missing a whole bunch of bus stops. Is the any objection to bulk importing either the NaPTAN data to fill in all the missing stops?

Reading the mailing lists, it seems the NaPTAN data is not ideal, but surely it's better than having no data at all.

For stops that already exist, I'd like to enhance them with their NaPTAN identifiers, but I won't attempt to move them (the assumption being the existing data is probably more accurate).

I'm fairly new to OSM and was wondering if there is any issue in doing this?

Thanks & Regards
Stephen



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Re: [Talk-transit] Buses in Brighton, UK

Roger Slevin

I am surprised to hear that the current NaPTAN data (which is continually updated) has errors in it – and I wonder therefore if the problem may lie in the updating of NaPTAN data in OSM.  The original upload of NaPTAN to OSM was done about five years ago – and therefore it would not be surprising to find stops missing or ones that have moved in the meantime.

 

I believe that Brighton & Hove are good at maintaining the data in NaPTAN – but their idea of precision and yours may differ (as for public transport information we can be tolerant of slightly imprecise locations).  So you should use the latest version of NaPTAN and I can supply a copy in XML or CSV format if that would help.

 

Best wishes

 

Roger Slevin

Traveline south east & anglia

 

 

From: Chris Hill [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 30 June 2015 10:58
To: Public transport/transit/shared taxi related topics; Stephen Dawkins
Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] Buses in Brighton, UK

 

I had the NaPTAN data imported for my local patch. The data is based on submissions from each local authority and I think the quality varies. I checked about a hundred stops and ended up surveying a couple of thousand bus stops because the quality was so poor. Locations were missing, in hopelessly wrong places and the meta data was often wrong. The local authorities here don't seem to believe in sharing data so you may have a completely different result. If you plan to survey some or all of the stops then using NaPTAN data as a hint to find them is useful. I suggest you check out a few first to assess the quality before any import.

You should email talk-gb and possibly the imports ml to see what people think, this ml doesn't have a wide audience

Cheers, Chris

On 30 June 2015 10:43:20 GMT+01:00, Stephen Dawkins <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi

 

I was just starting to map the bus routes in Brighton, UK, when I noticed that it's missing a whole bunch of bus stops. Is the any objection to bulk importing either the NaPTAN data to fill in all the missing stops?

 

Reading the mailing lists, it seems the NaPTAN data is not ideal, but surely it's better than having no data at all.

 

For stops that already exist, I'd like to enhance them with their NaPTAN identifiers, but I won't attempt to move them (the assumption being the existing data is probably more accurate).

 

I'm fairly new to OSM and was wondering if there is any issue in doing this?

 

Thanks & Regards

Stephen



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Re: [Talk-transit] Buses in Brighton, UK

Chris Hill-6
I offered my survey data to Hull CC and East Riding of Yorkshire council. Both were not interested. This was when I did my surveys, so some time ago. I guess they don't understand that crowd-sourcing can produce valuable data. They certainly both are highly resistant to releasing any data as open data unless they are forced to do so. Maybe this attitude drives their data quality too.

Cheers, Chris

On 30 June 2015 11:21:39 GMT+01:00, Roger Slevin <[hidden email]> wrote:

>I am surprised to hear that the current NaPTAN data (which is
>continually updated) has errors in it – and I wonder therefore if the
>problem may lie in the updating of NaPTAN data in OSM.  The original
>upload of NaPTAN to OSM was done about five years ago – and therefore
>it would not be surprising to find stops missing or ones that have
>moved in the meantime.
>
>
>
>I believe that Brighton & Hove are good at maintaining the data in
>NaPTAN – but their idea of precision and yours may differ (as for
>public transport information we can be tolerant of slightly imprecise
>locations).  So you should use the latest version of NaPTAN and I can
>supply a copy in XML or CSV format if that would help.
>
>
>
>Best wishes
>
>
>
>Roger Slevin
>
>Traveline south east & anglia
>
>
>
>
>
>From: Chris Hill [mailto:[hidden email]]
>Sent: 30 June 2015 10:58
>To: Public transport/transit/shared taxi related topics; Stephen
>Dawkins
>Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] Buses in Brighton, UK
>
>
>
>I had the NaPTAN data imported for my local patch. The data is based on
>submissions from each local authority and I think the quality varies. I
>checked about a hundred stops and ended up surveying a couple of
>thousand bus stops because the quality was so poor. Locations were
>missing, in hopelessly wrong places and the meta data was often wrong.
>The local authorities here don't seem to believe in sharing data so you
>may have a completely different result. If you plan to survey some or
>all of the stops then using NaPTAN data as a hint to find them is
>useful. I suggest you check out a few first to assess the quality
>before any import.
>
>You should email talk-gb and possibly the imports ml to see what people
>think, this ml doesn't have a wide audience
>
>Cheers, Chris


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Re: [Talk-transit] Buses in Brighton, UK

Roger Slevin
Chris

That is disappointing to hear.  My role covers the south east and east Anglia regions and we would be happy to receive feedback in relation to NaPTAN data, and we would seek to persuade relevant colleagues in individual authorities to make any necessary corrections to NaPTAN where it is significantly wrong.  Resource constraints may mean that such corrections cannot be done immediately - but we would do our best to get factually incorrect information updated as soon as possible.

Roger



-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Hill [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 30 June 2015 11:34
To: [hidden email]; Public transport/transit/shared taxi related topics; 'Public transport/transit/shared taxi related topics'; 'Stephen Dawkins'
Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] Buses in Brighton, UK

I offered my survey data to Hull CC and East Riding of Yorkshire council. Both were not interested. This was when I did my surveys, so some time ago. I guess they don't understand that crowd-sourcing can produce valuable data. They certainly both are highly resistant to releasing any data as open data unless they are forced to do so. Maybe this attitude drives their data quality too.

Cheers, Chris

On 30 June 2015 11:21:39 GMT+01:00, Roger Slevin <[hidden email]> wrote:

>I am surprised to hear that the current NaPTAN data (which is
>continually updated) has errors in it – and I wonder therefore if the
>problem may lie in the updating of NaPTAN data in OSM.  The original
>upload of NaPTAN to OSM was done about five years ago – and therefore
>it would not be surprising to find stops missing or ones that have
>moved in the meantime.
>
>
>
>I believe that Brighton & Hove are good at maintaining the data in
>NaPTAN – but their idea of precision and yours may differ (as for
>public transport information we can be tolerant of slightly imprecise
>locations).  So you should use the latest version of NaPTAN and I can
>supply a copy in XML or CSV format if that would help.
>
>
>
>Best wishes
>
>
>
>Roger Slevin
>
>Traveline south east & anglia
>
>
>
>
>
>From: Chris Hill [mailto:[hidden email]]
>Sent: 30 June 2015 10:58
>To: Public transport/transit/shared taxi related topics; Stephen
>Dawkins
>Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] Buses in Brighton, UK
>
>
>
>I had the NaPTAN data imported for my local patch. The data is based on
>submissions from each local authority and I think the quality varies. I
>checked about a hundred stops and ended up surveying a couple of
>thousand bus stops because the quality was so poor. Locations were
>missing, in hopelessly wrong places and the meta data was often wrong.
>The local authorities here don't seem to believe in sharing data so you
>may have a completely different result. If you plan to survey some or
>all of the stops then using NaPTAN data as a hint to find them is
>useful. I suggest you check out a few first to assess the quality
>before any import.
>
>You should email talk-gb and possibly the imports ml to see what people
>think, this ml doesn't have a wide audience
>
>Cheers, Chris



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Re: [Talk-transit] Buses in Brighton, UK

Stephen Dawkins
In reply to this post by Roger Slevin
I did check a bunch of stops on my street, and the NaPTAN data for Brighton and Hove looks generally good, albeit slightly displaced in areas (and the curious case of a stop registered twice, once in the wrong admin area). 

Interestingly, I've found that the stops on the Brighton and Hove website[1] have a different positions, in some case more accurate. Perhaps they need to be nudged into updating NaPTAN with their data. If you dig a bit, you can get the KML file for it here[2].

Regards
Stephen


On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 11:21 AM, Roger Slevin <[hidden email]> wrote:

I am surprised to hear that the current NaPTAN data (which is continually updated) has errors in it – and I wonder therefore if the problem may lie in the updating of NaPTAN data in OSM.  The original upload of NaPTAN to OSM was done about five years ago – and therefore it would not be surprising to find stops missing or ones that have moved in the meantime.

 

I believe that Brighton & Hove are good at maintaining the data in NaPTAN – but their idea of precision and yours may differ (as for public transport information we can be tolerant of slightly imprecise locations).  So you should use the latest version of NaPTAN and I can supply a copy in XML or CSV format if that would help.

 

Best wishes

 

Roger Slevin

Traveline south east & anglia

 

 

From: Chris Hill [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 30 June 2015 10:58
To: Public transport/transit/shared taxi related topics; Stephen Dawkins
Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] Buses in Brighton, UK

 

I had the NaPTAN data imported for my local patch. The data is based on submissions from each local authority and I think the quality varies. I checked about a hundred stops and ended up surveying a couple of thousand bus stops because the quality was so poor. Locations were missing, in hopelessly wrong places and the meta data was often wrong. The local authorities here don't seem to believe in sharing data so you may have a completely different result. If you plan to survey some or all of the stops then using NaPTAN data as a hint to find them is useful. I suggest you check out a few first to assess the quality before any import.

You should email talk-gb and possibly the imports ml to see what people think, this ml doesn't have a wide audience

Cheers, Chris

On 30 June 2015 10:43:20 GMT+01:00, Stephen Dawkins <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi

 

I was just starting to map the bus routes in Brighton, UK, when I noticed that it's missing a whole bunch of bus stops. Is the any objection to bulk importing either the NaPTAN data to fill in all the missing stops?

 

Reading the mailing lists, it seems the NaPTAN data is not ideal, but surely it's better than having no data at all.

 

For stops that already exist, I'd like to enhance them with their NaPTAN identifiers, but I won't attempt to move them (the assumption being the existing data is probably more accurate).

 

I'm fairly new to OSM and was wondering if there is any issue in doing this?

 

Thanks & Regards

Stephen



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