Test prep centres and cram schools as amenity=prep_school?

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Test prep centres and cram schools as amenity=prep_school?

Joseph Eisenberg
I followed a link from amenity=school to amenity=prep_school, which
was only as stub with the text "Tutorial schools" and
description="Tutor school".

Taghistory shows it has been used since 2012, slowly increasing to a
few hundred uses since 2018, but had no wiki page still March 2019.

However, I found out that this tag has now been added to
osmlab/name_suggestion_index for brands like Kumon - an East Asian
test prep centre, aka "cram school".

Unfortunately, this usage does not at all match the UK or US English
meanings of "Prep School":

1) "Prep school": in the UK, a private primary school for children,
especially boys, between the ages of 7 and 13, who will then usually
go to "public school" (a type of private secondary school). See
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/prep-school

2) "college preparatory school", informally "Prep school" (North
American English), a type of secondary school where there students
plan to attend University. See
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/preparatory-school

I couldn't find any definition of "prep school" which mentioned test
prep centers, as in this wikipedia article:
http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Test_preparation - perhaps it's Singaporean
or Hong Kong English, or a translation error?

So, what's a better term for a test prep centre, cramp school, or
tutoring office? There the rarely used tag office=tutoring, but that
doesn't quite cover a place like Kaplan or Kumon -
https://au.kumonglobal.com/ - https://www.kaptest.com/

amenity=test_prep
amenity=cram_school
office=test_prep
amenity=tutoring

Other options?

-Joseph

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Re: Test prep centres and cram schools as amenity=prep_school?

石野貴之
Hello.

Tagging schemes for cram schools and tutorial centers have been discussed very often, 
but none of the discussion got to the solid conclusion.

I am strongly concerned about the situation, and requested for comments on my diary. 

My proposal is the following: 
1. Use a well-documented tag for the main tag. I think office=educational_institution would be the best, but amenity=prep_school or another tagging is also OK.
2. Then, add education=cram_school or education=tutoring as an auxiliary tag.
When I posted my idea on the discussion page at
There was a comment by Warin61:

Because it would be confusing to have educational features under 2 keys particularly when one of them is named educational. Think about teaching a new mapper, a clear logical order is far easier to learn than one where some bits are other there while others are in yet another area. Warin61 (talk) 08:54, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
--end--

Yeah, I must admit that having two keys in one feature is cofusing. However, throwing away current tags like amenity=school and promoting to use education=* tags is much worse. This obviously breaks forward compatibility. That's why I want to use education=* as a sub tag, not as a main tag.

I think it's the chance of a lifetime to deepen the discussion about tagging educational features, because today is the very day someone chaneged the status at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_Features/Education_Reform_Alternative
to abandoned and the original auther Erkinalp reverted the status back to proposed. This shows he/she has not lost the motivation!

Takayuki Ishino (User: yumean1119)
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Re: Test prep centres and cram schools as amenity=prep_school?

marc marc
Le 05.07.19 à 10:53, 石野貴之 a écrit :
> My proposal is the following:
> 1. Use a well-documented tag for the main tag. I think
> office=educational_institution would be the best, but

office=* is for office related stuff
the place where the staff do "office activities" can get an office=*
But i would call "office" a educational room where ppl learn something

> amenity=prep_school or another tagging is also OK.

to help the transition from one system to another or to fill in the
missing information in the first system, for school we can use
amenity=school school=education education=*
I am well aware that this is one more tag but it has the advantage of
not breaking anything while allowing the uses of the current system to
have access to the data

> 2. Then, add education=cram_school or education=tutoring as an
> auxiliary tag.

that's perfect.
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Re: Test prep centres and cram schools as amenity=prep_school?

Erkin Alp Güney
School=education is extraneous as a school implies an educational institution. If you looked at education reform proposal, you would see education=school. Cram schools are sufficiently different than academic schools that amenity=school will not fit.

Yours, faithfully
Erkin Alp

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Re: Test prep centres and cram schools as amenity=prep_school?

Philip Barnes
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
The issue I see with prep school is that it can be very easily confused with a Preparatory School, commonly referred to as a Prep School. I believe the term is used in both British and American English, i.e. Prepy.

Phil (trigpoint)

On Friday, 5 July 2019, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

> I followed a link from amenity=school to amenity=prep_school, which
> was only as stub with the text "Tutorial schools" and
> description="Tutor school".
>
> Taghistory shows it has been used since 2012, slowly increasing to a
> few hundred uses since 2018, but had no wiki page still March 2019.
>
> However, I found out that this tag has now been added to
> osmlab/name_suggestion_index for brands like Kumon - an East Asian
> test prep centre, aka "cram school".
>
> Unfortunately, this usage does not at all match the UK or US English
> meanings of "Prep School":
>
> 1) "Prep school": in the UK, a private primary school for children,
> especially boys, between the ages of 7 and 13, who will then usually
> go to "public school" (a type of private secondary school). See
> https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/prep-school
>
> 2) "college preparatory school", informally "Prep school" (North
> American English), a type of secondary school where there students
> plan to attend University. See
> https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/preparatory-school
>
> I couldn't find any definition of "prep school" which mentioned test
> prep centers, as in this wikipedia article:
> http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Test_preparation - perhaps it's Singaporean
> or Hong Kong English, or a translation error?
>
> So, what's a better term for a test prep centre, cramp school, or
> tutoring office? There the rarely used tag office=tutoring, but that
> doesn't quite cover a place like Kaplan or Kumon -
> https://au.kumonglobal.com/ - https://www.kaptest.com/
>
> amenity=test_prep
> amenity=cram_school
> office=test_prep
> amenity=tutoring
>
> Other options?
>
> -Joseph
>
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Re: Test prep centres and cram schools as amenity=prep_school?

Tagging mailing list
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
On 7/5/2019 2:16 AM, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

> So, what's a better term for a test prep centre, cramp school, or
> tutoring office? There the rarely used tag office=tutoring, but that
> doesn't quite cover a place like Kaplan or Kumon -
> https://au.kumonglobal.com/ - https://www.kaptest.com/
>
> amenity=test_prep
> amenity=cram_school
> office=test_prep
> amenity=tutoring
>
> Other options?

See previous discussions this year:

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-January/042561.html
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-February/042983.html
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-March/043617.html
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-May/045457.html

J

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Re: Test prep centres and cram schools as amenity=prep_school?

Joseph Eisenberg
To summarize,

In January, Javbw  mentioned amenity=cram_school for these "juku" cram
schools, e.g. brand Komon

In February, office=tutoring was suggested by Jmapb, perhaps with
tutoring=test_prep for those focused on test preparation only

In March, Warin added the suggestion of education=tutoring, however
not everyone agrees if all these facilities provide education, or if
education=* is a good key.

In May, yumean1119 suggested tagging Japanese "cram schools" as either
office=educational_institution + education = cram_school
or amenity=prep_school

And then iD and the name_suggestion_index started using amenity=prep_school

I think that "education=*" is not yet supported as a key, so we should
use either amenity= or office= with "=tutoring" - for cram schools
that provide after-school additional instruction, an "=test_prep" for
facilities that only provide preparation for certain tests, like
Kaplan in the USA.

Joseph

On 7/5/19, Jmapb via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 7/5/2019 2:16 AM, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>> So, what's a better term for a test prep centre, cramp school, or
>> tutoring office? There the rarely used tag office=tutoring, but that
>> doesn't quite cover a place like Kaplan or Kumon -
>> https://au.kumonglobal.com/ - https://www.kaptest.com/
>>
>> amenity=test_prep
>> amenity=cram_school
>> office=test_prep
>> amenity=tutoring
>>
>> Other options?
>
> See previous discussions this year:
>
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-January/042561.html
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-February/042983.html
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-March/043617.html
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-May/045457.html
>
> J
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
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>

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Re: Test prep centres and cram schools as amenity=prep_school?

Minh Nguyen-2
On 2019-07-06 06:17, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> In May, yumean1119 suggested tagging Japanese "cram schools" as either
> office=educational_institution + education = cram_school
> or amenity=prep_school
>
> And then iD and the name_suggestion_index started using amenity=prep_school

I added some test prep center and cram school chains to NSI [1] because
I was dismayed at seeing so many of them tagged as ordinary schools. [2]
The naming is admittedly unfortunate, but on the bright side, there
doesn't seem to have been much confusion with college preparatory
schools. Yay for presets. [3]

The NSI entry means it's easier for mappers to identify individual cram
schools as being affiliated with these chains, as opposed to being
college preparatory schools. So if there is consensus on a replacement
tag, the existing features can be migrated either manually or
automatically with more confidence than before.

[1] https://github.com/osmlab/name-suggestion-index/pull/2630
[2] http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/KuE
[3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:amenity%3Dprep_school

> I think that "education=*" is not yet supported as a key, so we should
> use either amenity= or office= with "=tutoring" - for cram schools
> that provide after-school additional instruction, an "=test_prep" for
> facilities that only provide preparation for certain tests, like
> Kaplan in the USA.

office=tutoring isn't a great fit, because then we can't easily
distinguish these centers (some of which are just as large as
neighborhood elementary schools) from independent tutors' offices.

Another term for these establishments is "supplementary education
center", but that risks confusion with some other kinds of supplementary
education. [3] And despite the "school" in "cram school", some of these
establishments are educational institutions only inasmuch as acupuncture
is healthcare [4], which is to say, debatable.

Incidentally, there's already a documented after_school tag used with
kindergartens and childcare centers. [5] Not all test prep centers are
after-school programs -- some are geared toward professional
examinations -- but I think the overlap suggests that we should just go
with something in amenity=* until we get around to overhauling
everything with an education=* key.

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supplementary_school
[4]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:healthcare#Specialities_for_healthcare.3Dalternative
[5] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:after_school

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Re: Test prep centres and cram schools as amenity=prep_school?

marc marc
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
Le 06.07.19 à 15:17, Joseph Eisenberg a écrit :
> provide after-school additional instruction

why it isn't still a school with another min_age/max_age
or any additional tag ?
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Re: Test prep centres and cram schools as amenity=prep_school?

Minh Nguyen-2
On 2019-07-06 14:20, marc marc wrote:
> Le 06.07.19 à 15:17, Joseph Eisenberg a écrit :
>> provide after-school additional instruction
>
> why it isn't still a school with another min_age/max_age
> or any additional tag ?

For much the same reason that an acupuncturist's office isn't tagged
amenity=doctor. If we establish an education=* key with a wide range of
possible values, like healthcare=*, then that's a different story. But
amenity=school is commonly understood by mappers and data consumers as
an institution that provides a certain kind of educational instruction.
We have dedicated tags for amenity=kindergarten/college/university, and
kindergartens have more in common with elementary schools than these
often retail-like establishments.

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Re: Test prep centres and cram schools as amenity=prep_school?

Joseph Eisenberg
TL:DR I think we can use amenity=test_prep or amenity=cram_school for
most of these.

An alternative from British English would be amenity=tuition, but I
think this might not work in many dialects of English?
----------------------------------
I did some more research about this. Apparently Kumon has branches in
the USA, UK and Aus too. Kumon advertises themselves at offering "Math
and English tuition" aka tutoring classes, in Australia, and as
offering "After School Math & Reading Programs" in the USA.

In the UK the Kumon website says "Maths tuition & extra English
lessons for children - Kumon Europe"

In India, Pakistan, Malaysia and Singapore, the British - influenced
term for these places is "Tuition Centre"; (we call them a bimbel or
Bimbingan Belajar in Indonesian - translated lit. "learning guidance"
or "tuition"),  however the word "tuition" could be confusing in other
dialects of English?

Kaplan describes themselves this way: "offers test prep, license and
certification exam prep, degree programs, English learning and pathway
programs" - so while test prep is their main business, they also have
English classes to prepare students; they are not as different from
the Japanese and East Asian "cram schools" as I thought.

So perhaps we can group the test prep centres, after-school tuition
and cram schools in one tag after all.

I would still think that a individual tutor, who might come to your
home to provide one-on-one tuition / tutoring, would have an
"office=tutoring" or "office=tuition", because the office is not
always the site where the services are delivered.

But the large facilities that offer after-school and test prep classes
would deserve an amenity key.

I'm willing to write up a proposal.

Joseph

On 7/7/19, Minh Nguyen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 2019-07-06 14:20, marc marc wrote:
>> Le 06.07.19 à 15:17, Joseph Eisenberg a écrit :
>>> provide after-school additional instruction
>>
>> why it isn't still a school with another min_age/max_age
>> or any additional tag ?
>
> For much the same reason that an acupuncturist's office isn't tagged
> amenity=doctor. If we establish an education=* key with a wide range of
> possible values, like healthcare=*, then that's a different story. But
> amenity=school is commonly understood by mappers and data consumers as
> an institution that provides a certain kind of educational instruction.
> We have dedicated tags for amenity=kindergarten/college/university, and
> kindergartens have more in common with elementary schools than these
> often retail-like establishments.
>
> --
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>
>
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Re: Test prep centres and cram schools as amenity=prep_school?

Jmapb
On 7/7/2019 11:01 PM, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

> TL:DR I think we can use amenity=test_prep or amenity=cram_school for
> most of these.
>
> An alternative from British English would be amenity=tuition, but I
> think this might not work in many dialects of English?
> ----------------------------------
> I did some more research about this. Apparently Kumon has branches in
> the USA, UK and Aus too. Kumon advertises themselves at offering "Math
> and English tuition" aka tutoring classes, in Australia, and as
> offering "After School Math & Reading Programs" in the USA.
>
> In the UK the Kumon website says "Maths tuition & extra English
> lessons for children - Kumon Europe"
>
> In India, Pakistan, Malaysia and Singapore, the British - influenced
> term for these places is "Tuition Centre"; (we call them a bimbel or
> Bimbingan Belajar in Indonesian - translated lit. "learning guidance"
> or "tuition"),  however the word "tuition" could be confusing in other
> dialects of English?

In American English "tuition" is the fee paid for private education --
so you might give tuition to a tutor, but you'd never receive tuition
from a tutor. (It's easy to see the evolution: "tuition fee" means fee
for tuition, then the word "fee" is dropped for streamlining, then
"tuition" always refers to money and the original meaning is lost. In
America, the noun form of the verb "tutor" would be "tutoring", or,
quaintly, "tutelage.")

But seeing as British English is the official language of OSM, the tag
amenity=tuiton_centre makes some sense to me -- even if it is more
Subcontinental than British.

If people can handle calling a realtor an "estate agent" they should be
able to learn this. Inevitably, though, some Americans who tag manually
*will* be baffled. And in that sense, amenity=tuition is probably much
worse than amenity=tuiton_centre, the British spelling of centre on the
latter giving a hint that the phrase might have an unexpected meaning,
and making it much easier to search on. To an American eye,
amenity=tuition will read like amenity=tax, or amenity=medical_bill.

Because amenity=prep_school is such a poor choice, I will support
anything sensible to replace it. But I'm still holding out hope for a
broad education=* key.

J


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Re: Test prep centres and cram schools as amenity=prep_school?

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On Jul 6, 2019, at 10:17 PM, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

In January, Javbw  mentioned amenity=cram_school for these "juku" cram
schools, e.g. brand Komon

Yep - "cram school" is the English translation commonly given to these kinds of "after-school, multi-subject, class-based schools". They have books, teachers, and follow an in-house curriculum to teach students. Komon is a popular one.

There are roughly 10 of these schools in a 2KM radius of my city. 

Here is a class course list webpage from a juku in Japan. This is the middle school courses offered. Use a translation service to read it. 


Additional comments: 

A tutor is often one-on-one. This is (primarily) not. 

A language school might have many different types of classes for different age ranges (toddlers through seniors), but still stays on one language. They don't offer total STEM classes.

A prepatory school could have the students there for 10 hours a day for a year-long course  - which is a true school. They basically are an additional year of high school focused on helping students pass the entrance exam of the college they wish to attend (and failed the first time).  

Cram Schools are *supplemental* to "regular school", usually as an after-school program  aimed at k-12 students,  Who attend on a daily or weekly schedule for a set period of time.

source: my children have gone to a cram_school to help with their studies on occaision, I currently teach at a Middle School and many students attend a cram_school currently, I have worked at a language school, and I know people who offer tutoring.  My Son attended a year-long prepatory course at a college prepatory school to study to enter University (not a cram school). 

Javbw. 

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