The San Jose / Santa Clara border

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The San Jose / Santa Clara border

Andy Townsend
A mapper has recently changed this to "cut the corner off" north of the
880 between San Jose airport and Stevens Creek Mall / Westfield Valley
Fair.  You can see the change at
http://overpass-api.de/achavi/?changeset=66619223&zoom=18&lat=37.33883&lon=-121.93327&layers=B0TTTFT 
.

Some of this mapper's previous changes have had to be undone, so I did
check the node change made here to see if it might be one of them. 
However, according to the node history
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/373647840/history#map=13/37.3600/-121.9066 
the original source of this node was a changeset quite a while ago with
a description "adjust boundaries based on san jose city map, bing, and
common sense ".  It therefore would be great if a local could check it
if possible.

FWIW I've only ever had the vaguest idea where the boundary was here
(I'd always assumed it's around the 880 itself, but obviously the
boundary predates the road, so that clearly makes no sense :)

Best Regards,

Andy (from the DWG)


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Re: The San Jose / Santa Clara border

stevea
On Jan 26, 2019, at 4:00 AM, Andy Townsend <[hidden email]> wrote:
> A mapper has recently changed this to "cut the corner off" north of the 880 between San Jose airport and Stevens Creek Mall / Westfield Valley Fair.  You can see the change at http://overpass-api.de/achavi/?changeset=66619223&zoom=18&lat=37.33883&lon=-121.93327&layers=B0TTTFT .
>
> Some of this mapper's previous changes have had to be undone, so I did check the node change made here to see if it might be one of them.  However, according to the node history https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/373647840/history#map=13/37.3600/-121.9066 the original source of this node was a changeset quite a while ago with a description "adjust boundaries based on san jose city map, bing, and common sense ".  It therefore would be great if a local could check it if possible.

I'm fairly local (SJC is my "home airport") yet I'm not finding easily-available San José City Limit boundaries in an ODbL-compatible format which I could use to relatively quickly repair the damage.  (The user mk408 has a history of "making it up as he sees fit" OSM data entry which many have disputed or redacted, for example, many years ago he made MANY roads in the entire South Bay region — Campbell, Los Gatos, Monte Sereno, southern San José —into highway=tertiary roads, and that remained very questionable until it slowly but surely "healed itself," again, this took months-to-years).  There are some geo data at http://csj-landzoning.appspot.com/index.html which indicate the present OSM data are "largely correct," the exception being that the area directly over the northern part of the airport do not include the "leg" that "covers" runway 12L/30R and that the acute angle over taxiways V, W and W1 is more like "aligned with these taxiways, rather than cutting across them."  You really have to see them rather than expect that I can describe them with text.  They are, again, "mostly correct" but could use some rather minor correction.

As I bumped into somebody on a plane on my way back from SOTM-US Seattle (2016) who works in the San José City Hall and when she met me was bowled over at the coincidence that I was the very person sitting next to her drinking gin and tonic who entered into OSM most of Santa Clara County's bikeways/bicycle infrastructure and network=lcn routing (which the city office found "extremely helpful" — her words), it's conceivable that I might be able to use that to sway release of some data which could be forthcoming.  While I don't know quite who to call, exactly, if somebody wants to "release to me" ODbL-compatible data which need to be harmonized with what are now in OSM, I'll volunteer to be the "nexus of citizen entry" to assure they find their way into our wonderful map.  Send me a pointer to the data, assure me they are ODbL-OK and I'll "merge" these into OSM.

SteveA
California
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Re: The San Jose / Santa Clara border

Joseph Eisenberg
Do the latest NGS topographical maps show the city limits properly? Those are public domain
On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 10:16 AM OSM Volunteer stevea <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Jan 26, 2019, at 4:00 AM, Andy Townsend <[hidden email]> wrote:
> A mapper has recently changed this to "cut the corner off" north of the 880 between San Jose airport and Stevens Creek Mall / Westfield Valley Fair.  You can see the change at http://overpass-api.de/achavi/?changeset=66619223&zoom=18&lat=37.33883&lon=-121.93327&layers=B0TTTFT .
>
> Some of this mapper's previous changes have had to be undone, so I did check the node change made here to see if it might be one of them.  However, according to the node history https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/373647840/history#map=13/37.3600/-121.9066 the original source of this node was a changeset quite a while ago with a description "adjust boundaries based on san jose city map, bing, and common sense ".  It therefore would be great if a local could check it if possible.

I'm fairly local (SJC is my "home airport") yet I'm not finding easily-available San José City Limit boundaries in an ODbL-compatible format which I could use to relatively quickly repair the damage.  (The user mk408 has a history of "making it up as he sees fit" OSM data entry which many have disputed or redacted, for example, many years ago he made MANY roads in the entire South Bay region — Campbell, Los Gatos, Monte Sereno, southern San José —into highway=tertiary roads, and that remained very questionable until it slowly but surely "healed itself," again, this took months-to-years).  There are some geo data at http://csj-landzoning.appspot.com/index.html which indicate the present OSM data are "largely correct," the exception being that the area directly over the northern part of the airport do not include the "leg" that "covers" runway 12L/30R and that the acute angle over taxiways V, W and W1 is more like "aligned with these taxiways, rather than cutting across them."  You really have to see them rather than expect that I can describe them with text.  They are, again, "mostly correct" but could use some rather minor correction.

As I bumped into somebody on a plane on my way back from SOTM-US Seattle (2016) who works in the San José City Hall and when she met me was bowled over at the coincidence that I was the very person sitting next to her drinking gin and tonic who entered into OSM most of Santa Clara County's bikeways/bicycle infrastructure and network=lcn routing (which the city office found "extremely helpful" — her words), it's conceivable that I might be able to use that to sway release of some data which could be forthcoming.  While I don't know quite who to call, exactly, if somebody wants to "release to me" ODbL-compatible data which need to be harmonized with what are now in OSM, I'll volunteer to be the "nexus of citizen entry" to assure they find their way into our wonderful map.  Send me a pointer to the data, assure me they are ODbL-OK and I'll "merge" these into OSM.

SteveA
California
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Re: The San Jose / Santa Clara border

Jack Burke-2
Does anyone know someone who lives in the "disputed" area? If so, then one definitive information point is what local government elections he/she can vote in.

-jack
--
Typos courtesy of fancy auto spell technology

On January 26, 2019 8:50:39 PM EST, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
Do the latest NGS topographical maps show the city limits properly? Those are public domain
On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 10:16 AM OSM Volunteer stevea <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Jan 26, 2019, at 4:00 AM, Andy Townsend <[hidden email]> wrote:
> A mapper has recently changed this to "cut the corner off" north of the 880 between San Jose airport and Stevens Creek Mall / Westfield Valley Fair.  You can see the change at http://overpass-api.de/achavi/?changeset=66619223&zoom=18&lat=37.33883&lon=-121.93327&layers=B0TTTFT .
>
> Some of this mapper's previous changes have had to be undone, so I did check the node change made here to see if it might be one of them.  However, according to the node history https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/373647840/history#map=13/37.3600/-121.9066 the original source of this node was a changeset quite a while ago with a description "adjust boundaries based on san jose city map, bing, and common sense ".  It therefore would be great if a local could check it if possible.

I'm fairly local (SJC is my "home airport") yet I'm not finding easily-available San José City Limit boundaries in an ODbL-compatible format which I could use to relatively quickly repair the damage.  (The user mk408 has a history of "making it up as he sees fit" OSM data entry which many have disputed or redacted, for example, many years ago he made MANY roads in the entire South Bay region — Campbell, Los Gatos, Monte Sereno, southern San José —into highway=tertiary roads, and that remained very questionable until it slowly but surely "healed itself," again, this took months-to-years).  There are some geo data at http://csj-landzoning.appspot.com/index.html which indicate the present OSM data are "largely correct," the exception being that the area directly over the northern part of the airport do not include the "leg" that "covers" runway 12L/30R and that the acute angle over taxiways V, W and W1 is more like "aligned with these taxiways, rather than cutting across them."  You really have to see them rather than expect that I can describe them with text.  They are, again, "mostly correct" but could use some rather minor correction.

As I bumped into somebody on a plane on my way back from SOTM-US Seattle (2016) who works in the San José City Hall and when she met me was bowled over at the coincidence that I was the very person sitting next to her drinking gin and tonic who entered into OSM most of Santa Clara County's bikeways/bicycle infrastructure and network=lcn routing (which the city office found "extremely helpful" — her words), it's conceivable that I might be able to use that to sway release of some data which could be forthcoming.  While I don't know quite who to call, exactly, if somebody wants to "release to me" ODbL-compatible data which need to be harmonized with what are now in OSM, I'll volunteer to be the "nexus of citizen entry" to assure they find their way into our wonderful map.  Send me a pointer to the data, assure me they are ODbL-OK and I'll "merge" these into OSM.

SteveA
California
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Re: The San Jose / Santa Clara border

Andy Townsend
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg

Thanks to everyone who replied - I've reverted the change in https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/66672189 .

On 27/01/2019 01:50, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
Do the latest NGS topographical maps show the city limits properly? Those are public domain
On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 10:16 AM OSM Volunteer stevea <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Jan 26, 2019, at 4:00 AM, Andy Townsend <[hidden email]> wrote:
> A mapper has recently changed this to "cut the corner off" north of the 880 between San Jose airport and Stevens Creek Mall / Westfield Valley Fair.  You can see the change at http://overpass-api.de/achavi/?changeset=66619223&zoom=18&lat=37.33883&lon=-121.93327&layers=B0TTTFT .
>
> Some of this mapper's previous changes have had to be undone, so I did check the node change made here to see if it might be one of them.  However, according to the node history https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/373647840/history#map=13/37.3600/-121.9066 the original source of this node was a changeset quite a while ago with a description "adjust boundaries based on san jose city map, bing, and common sense ".  It therefore would be great if a local could check it if possible.

I'm fairly local (SJC is my "home airport") yet I'm not finding easily-available San José City Limit boundaries in an ODbL-compatible format which I could use to relatively quickly repair the damage.  (The user mk408 has a history of "making it up as he sees fit" OSM data entry which many have disputed or redacted, for example, many years ago he made MANY roads in the entire South Bay region — Campbell, Los Gatos, Monte Sereno, southern San José —into highway=tertiary roads, and that remained very questionable until it slowly but surely "healed itself," again, this took months-to-years).  There are some geo data at http://csj-landzoning.appspot.com/index.html which indicate the present OSM data are "largely correct," the exception being that the area directly over the northern part of the airport do not include the "leg" that "covers" runway 12L/30R and that the acute angle over taxiways V, W and W1 is more like "aligned with these taxiways, rather than cutting across them."  You really have to see them rather than expect that I can describe them with text.  They are, again, "mostly correct" but could use some rather minor correction.

As I bumped into somebody on a plane on my way back from SOTM-US Seattle (2016) who works in the San José City Hall and when she met me was bowled over at the coincidence that I was the very person sitting next to her drinking gin and tonic who entered into OSM most of Santa Clara County's bikeways/bicycle infrastructure and network=lcn routing (which the city office found "extremely helpful" — her words), it's conceivable that I might be able to use that to sway release of some data which could be forthcoming.  While I don't know quite who to call, exactly, if somebody wants to "release to me" ODbL-compatible data which need to be harmonized with what are now in OSM, I'll volunteer to be the "nexus of citizen entry" to assure they find their way into our wonderful map.  Send me a pointer to the data, assure me they are ODbL-OK and I'll "merge" these into OSM.

SteveA
California
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Re: The San Jose / Santa Clara border

Minh Nguyen-2
In reply to this post by stevea
On 2019-01-26 17:13, OSM Volunteer stevea wrote:
> While I don't know quite who to call, exactly, if somebody wants to "release to me" ODbL-compatible data which need to be harmonized with what are now in OSM, I'll volunteer to be the "nexus of citizen entry" to assure they find their way into our wonderful map.  Send me a pointer to the data, assure me they are ODbL-OK and I'll "merge" these into OSM.

Any help maintaining San José’s sprawling, unwieldy city limits would be
most welcome. A few years ago, I incorporated the Seven Trees
annexations into San José [1] but didn't go much further to correct the
crude, outdated data we imported from TIGER.

Thankfully, over the years, Steve has impressed upon me the importance
of Santa Clara County's Local Agency Formation Commission (LAFCO), which
serves as the authority on municipal boundaries in the county and
conveniently releases all its work into the public domain, by virtue of
being a state agency. The commission's Island Annexation Program page
[2] links to a memorandum from May 2011 [3] and an atlas from 2015 [4]
that include detailed maps of the remaining islands.

The county planning department handles GIS for the LAFCO. They have an
ArcGIS application and layer indicating all the city and town limits in
the county. [5][6] The planning department is also subject to state
sunshine laws regarding the public domain.

[1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/32278082 and
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/32402544
[2]
https://www.santaclaralafco.org/specialdistricts/island-annexation-program
[3]
https://www.santaclaralafco.org/file/IslandAnnexations/Item10A_SanJose.pdf
[4]
https://www.sccgov.org/sites/dpd/DocsForms/Documents/UrbanIslands_2015_Atlas.pdf
[5]
https://sccplanning.maps.arcgis.com/home/item.html?id=35968e7124f04807bd1ed70b31fab4fd
[6]
https://services2.arcgis.com/tcv2cMrq63AgvbHF/ArcGIS/rest/services/PlanningOfficeDataService2/FeatureServer/2

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Re: The San Jose / Santa Clara border

stevea
In reply to this post by Andy Townsend
(Lengthy reply alert)
Hi Minh:

Thanks for your (always thorough and well-researched) pointers and history — though I don't recall "impressing LAFCO" upon you, I did mention it in the context of admin_level, so, OK, whatever!  Good for Santa Clara LAFCO for publishing municipal boundaries into the PD.  I am again thankful we live in a state with excellent public data in the PD along with our "sunshine laws."

I like that you made Seven Trees an admin_level=10 for reasons you did, even as you've described other SJ neighborhoods as "amorphous" (exactly the right word, imo!)  I wouldn't have noticed had you not sent me links [1].

"Urban islands as a LAFCO high priority to streamline" is something I've never heard of before.  Notwithstanding the letter LAFCO sent City of San José nearly eight years ago [3], I believe it is the City of San José itself which "serves as the authority on" its own municipal boundary.  LAFCO might have something to say (keeping accurate maps / GIS data, for example) about all cities in Santa Clara County, but I don't think anyone contends that LAFCO doesn't define municipal boundaries, the cities themselves do.  Indeed, LAFCO's letter says it can "encourage" annexations (of islands) and waive its fees (to incentivize a "streamlined process" for islands 150 acres or less) but it cannot force a city to do so, whether this is a "high priority" for the LAFCO or not.

Using link [4] and blending with the instant topic (which I volunteered to remedy), I examined the five pages of City of Santa Clara.  The first four (pages 45-48) are "islands" which share a boundary with City of San José (the fifth is an island solely inside of the City of Santa Clara).  None of these involve the area around the airport / Westfield Valley Fair, which was Andy Townsend's "area of concern," prompting me to answer that I'd take a look.  (SC05, page 48, is pretty close, but is north of the airport and involves a creek edge near Trimble and Orchard).  Those four "islands" probably could be used to (rather crudely) "hand draw modify" the Santa Clara City Limit boundary in OSM (relation 2221647) but it isn't clear to me how what these maps define as Urban Service Boundary is or isn't the actual city limit boundary for Santa Clara.  As I think about it, the identification of these four islands (the fifth might become an "inner" member of that relation) in this document COULD be used to exclude these islands from the City Limit, but I'm not sure that is accurate (it likely is, I'm simply not sure).  So while these resources might qualify as "interesting," I don't find them wholly relevant to what I volunteered to do "near the airport."

However, links [5] and especially [6] yield dense, recent, tasty data.  Having used ArcGIS layers before like this (largely while mapping to fix TIGER rail), I can set a basemap of OSM while viewing these data.  Doing so allows me to find where there are some relatively minor differences, so I elected to fix these, "manually" using JOSM.

These (minor) changes were along the "grass edge" NW of the 101-Trimble interchange, westerly to the UP Coast Subdivision rail bridge crossing 101, southerly to just north of Central Expressway (not south, a significant change making OSM's representation of CE W of Trimble/De La Cruz to the rail bridge now in Santa Clara, not San José).  This continues easterly across Trimble into the airport, as far as Taxiway Y, includes better-traced (though likely not perfectly accurate) rectangular and triangular areas of northern portions of runways and taxiways, south along De La Cruz and excludes Memorial Cross Park (in San José, not Santa Clara).  The barrier=fence had to be node-by-node unglued from the city limit (but kept glued to the parking lot) to be better characterized as "along Martin Avenue" (and so was), SE on Martin Avenue (with some "jogs") to a bit further SE on Aviation Avenue, southerly (with "jogs") to Campbell Avenue near Stephen Schott Stadium.

From there, the boundary needed to be moved easterly by about 10 meters, so it was, past Sherwood and along Portola Avenue.  Adjustments were made to better align with The Alameda, past Morse and Idaho and to I-880, where a 90-degree westerly boundary continues to Newhall and Monroe, where as it follows the southern boundary of Santa Clara Mission Cemetery, it is correct (enough for now).

The ways I changed have IDs 166659029 and 97341711 (recently reverted by Andy Townsend), part of the Santa Clara (city) municipal boundary relation.  I believe this is moderately better, which is "moderately better."

SteveA

> From: Minh Nguyen <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Talk-us] The San Jose / Santa Clara border
> Date: January 28, 2019 at 5:06:15 AM PST
> To: [hidden email]
>
>
> On 2019-01-26 17:13, OSM Volunteer stevea wrote:
>> While I don't know quite who to call, exactly, if somebody wants to "release to me" ODbL-compatible data which need to be harmonized with what are now in OSM, I'll volunteer to be the "nexus of citizen entry" to assure they find their way into our wonderful map.  Send me a pointer to the data, assure me they are ODbL-OK and I'll "merge" these into OSM.
>
> Any help maintaining San José’s sprawling, unwieldy city limits would be most welcome. A few years ago, I incorporated the Seven Trees annexations into San José [1] but didn't go much further to correct the crude, outdated data we imported from TIGER.
>
> Thankfully, over the years, Steve has impressed upon me the importance of Santa Clara County's Local Agency Formation Commission (LAFCO), which serves as the authority on municipal boundaries in the county and conveniently releases all its work into the public domain, by virtue of being a state agency. The commission's Island Annexation Program page [2] links to a memorandum from May 2011 [3] and an atlas from 2015 [4] that include detailed maps of the remaining islands.
>
> The county planning department handles GIS for the LAFCO. They have an ArcGIS application and layer indicating all the city and town limits in the county. [5][6] The planning department is also subject to state sunshine laws regarding the public domain.
>
> [1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/32278082 and https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/32402544
> [2] https://www.santaclaralafco.org/specialdistricts/island-annexation-program
> [3] https://www.santaclaralafco.org/file/IslandAnnexations/Item10A_SanJose.pdf
> [4] https://www.sccgov.org/sites/dpd/DocsForms/Documents/UrbanIslands_2015_Atlas.pdf
> [5] https://sccplanning.maps.arcgis.com/home/item.html?id=35968e7124f04807bd1ed70b31fab4fd
> [6] https://services2.arcgis.com/tcv2cMrq63AgvbHF/ArcGIS/rest/services/PlanningOfficeDataService2/FeatureServer/2
>
> --
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Re: The San Jose / Santa Clara border

Minh Nguyen-2
On 2019-01-28 12:40, OSM Volunteer stevea wrote:

> (Lengthy reply alert)
> Hi Minh:
>
> Thanks for your (always thorough and well-researched) pointers and history — though I don't recall "impressing LAFCO" upon you, I did mention it in the context of admin_level, so, OK, whatever!  Good for Santa Clara LAFCO for publishing municipal boundaries into the PD.  I am again thankful we live in a state with excellent public data in the PD along with our "sunshine laws."
>
> I like that you made Seven Trees an admin_level=10 for reasons you did, even as you've described other SJ neighborhoods as "amorphous" (exactly the right word, imo!)  I wouldn't have noticed had you not sent me links [1].
>
> "Urban islands as a LAFCO high priority to streamline" is something I've never heard of before.  Notwithstanding the letter LAFCO sent City of San José nearly eight years ago [3], I believe it is the City of San José itself which "serves as the authority on" its own municipal boundary.  LAFCO might have something to say (keeping accurate maps / GIS data, for example) about all cities in Santa Clara County, but I don't think anyone contends that LAFCO doesn't define municipal boundaries, the cities themselves do.  Indeed, LAFCO's letter says it can "encourage" annexations (of islands) and waive its fees (to incentivize a "streamlined process" for islands 150 acres or less) but it cannot force a city to do so, whether this is a "high priority" for the LAFCO or not.
>
> Using link [4] and blending with the instant topic (which I volunteered to remedy), I examined the five pages of City of Santa Clara.  The first four (pages 45-48) are "islands" which share a boundary with City of San José (the fifth is an island solely inside of the City of Santa Clara).  None of these involve the area around the airport / Westfield Valley Fair, which was Andy Townsend's "area of concern," prompting me to answer that I'd take a look.  (SC05, page 48, is pretty close, but is north of the airport and involves a creek edge near Trimble and Orchard).  Those four "islands" probably could be used to (rather crudely) "hand draw modify" the Santa Clara City Limit boundary in OSM (relation 2221647) but it isn't clear to me how what these maps define as Urban Service Boundary is or isn't the actual city limit boundary for Santa Clara.  As I think about it, the identification of these four islands (the fifth might become an "inner" member of that relation) in this document COULD be used to exclude these islands from the City Limit, but I'm not sure that is accurate (it likely is, I'm simply not sure).  So while these resources might qualify as "interesting," I don't find them wholly relevant to what I volunteered to do "near the airport."
>
> However, links [5] and especially [6] yield dense, recent, tasty data.  Having used ArcGIS layers before like this (largely while mapping to fix TIGER rail), I can set a basemap of OSM while viewing these data.  Doing so allows me to find where there are some relatively minor differences, so I elected to fix these, "manually" using JOSM.
>
> These (minor) changes were along the "grass edge" NW of the 101-Trimble interchange, westerly to the UP Coast Subdivision rail bridge crossing 101, southerly to just north of Central Expressway (not south, a significant change making OSM's representation of CE W of Trimble/De La Cruz to the rail bridge now in Santa Clara, not San José).  This continues easterly across Trimble into the airport, as far as Taxiway Y, includes better-traced (though likely not perfectly accurate) rectangular and triangular areas of northern portions of runways and taxiways, south along De La Cruz and excludes Memorial Cross Park (in San José, not Santa Clara).  The barrier=fence had to be node-by-node unglued from the city limit (but kept glued to the parking lot) to be better characterized as "along Martin Avenue" (and so was), SE on Martin Avenue (with some "jogs") to a bit further SE on Aviation Avenue, southerly (with "jogs") to Campbell Avenue near Stephen Schott Stadium.
>
>  From there, the boundary needed to be moved easterly by about 10 meters, so it was, past Sherwood and along Portola Avenue.  Adjustments were made to better align with The Alameda, past Morse and Idaho and to I-880, where a 90-degree westerly boundary continues to Newhall and Monroe, where as it follows the southern boundary of Santa Clara Mission Cemetery, it is correct (enough for now).
>
> The ways I changed have IDs 166659029 and 97341711 (recently reverted by Andy Townsend), part of the Santa Clara (city) municipal boundary relation.  I believe this is moderately better, which is "moderately better."
>
> SteveA

Thanks for making these improvements! I've added an item to our local
to-do lists for refining the rest of the city boundary as needed:

https://github.com/codeforsanjose/OSM-SouthBay/issues/19
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Special:Diff/1782398

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