The (dark) future of Java on desktop

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The (dark) future of Java on desktop

Vincent Privat
Oracle issued this sad, frustrating and almost depressing statement today:

https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/the-future-of-javafx-and-other-java-client-roadmap-updates
http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/javaclientroadmapupdate2018mar-4414431.pdf

Forget the "yay this is an exciting moment" of the blog post and read the
details in the white paper: basically it seems all client technologies
(WebStart, AWT, Swing, JavaFX...) are going to die sooner or later.

I'm not sure what it implies for the long-term development of JOSM, but
nothing good I fear.

Vincent
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Re: The (dark) future of Java on desktop

Frederik Ramm
Hi,

On 08.03.2018 00:06, Vincent Privat wrote:
> I'm not sure what it implies for the long-term development of JOSM, but
> nothing good I fear.

I wouldn't be too concerned. With all due respect for your coding work,
I don't think that the actual program code is the essential thing about
JOSM. It's the functionality and user interface, the decade-long (!)
evolution that has given us the powerful tool we have today.

You could sit down today and re-implement everything in, say, C++, and
it would be relatively straightforward, and while the result would not
share any of JOSM's codebase, it would still encapsulate all the
experience and brainpower that has flown into JOSM development over the
years.

I think what is essential about JOSM will live on even if Java should die.

Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [hidden email]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: The (dark) future of Java on desktop

SimonPoole
In any case, as I read it, the implication is that oracle simply doesn't
want to be involved, not that anything will be going away.

Simon


Am 08.03.2018 um 08:36 schrieb Frederik Ramm:

> Hi,
>
> On 08.03.2018 00:06, Vincent Privat wrote:
>> I'm not sure what it implies for the long-term development of JOSM, but
>> nothing good I fear.
> I wouldn't be too concerned. With all due respect for your coding work,
> I don't think that the actual program code is the essential thing about
> JOSM. It's the functionality and user interface, the decade-long (!)
> evolution that has given us the powerful tool we have today.
>
> You could sit down today and re-implement everything in, say, C++, and
> it would be relatively straightforward, and while the result would not
> share any of JOSM's codebase, it would still encapsulate all the
> experience and brainpower that has flown into JOSM development over the
> years.
>
> I think what is essential about JOSM will live on even if Java should die.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>


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Re: The (dark) future of Java on desktop

Dirk Stöcker
In reply to this post by Frederik Ramm
On Thu, 8 Mar 2018, Frederik Ramm wrote:

> You could sit down today and re-implement everything in, say, C++, and
> it would be relatively straightforward, and while the result would not
> share any of JOSM's codebase, it would still encapsulate all the
> experience and brainpower that has flown into JOSM development over the
> years.



Ciao
--
http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available)

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Re: The (dark) future of Java on desktop

Dirk Stöcker
On Thu, 8 Mar 2018, Dirk Stöcker wrote:

[nothing]

Sorry, operator error :-)

Ciao
--
http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available)
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Re: The (dark) future of Java on desktop

Vincent Privat
WebStart is going away. It is the only part of Java that isn't open source
and they explicitely stated they won't open source it:
https://twitter.com/DonaldOJDK/status/971492781616136194

So at least starting from September we'll have to make the WebStart link
less prominent as it won't work anymore for Windows and macOS users having
their Java up-to-date. It will work natively only on Linux, where openjdk
package includes the retro-engineered free version of WebStart
(netx/icedtea-web):
https://icedtea.classpath.org/wiki/IcedTea-Web

I don't know if the few (single?) people behind IcedTea-Web will have the
desire to maintain it after Oracle drops it from JDK. I don't know either
if icedtea-web requires jar signing: maybe we will be able to drop the
requirement to sign josm.jar, thus asking to Frederik to pay for the
certificates ;)

JavaFX will be given to someone else soon. Maybe the Eclipse Foundation,
like Java EE which has be transferred to Eclipse, without the permission to
call it Java EE anymore. Or maybe the Apache Foundation, where they already
made OpenOffice and Hudson die there (given that they have been
successfully forked as LibreOffice and Jenkins).

AWT and Swing will still be here in Java 11. But the fact they mention it
explicitely today probably means they have plans to remove it as soon as
Java 12 development starts (in 6 months). I have no idea if the new project
will create enough traction to have enough contributors (volunteers or pais
staff from other companies), we'll see. Swing is still used a lot in the
industry. At least we should be able to fix Swing bugs ourselves when we
find ones.

Concerning JOSM it means we will probably have to ship AWT, Swing and
JavaFX in josm.jar. In JDK9 the desktop module (AWT+Swing) weights 13Mb,
the various JavaFX modules 30Mb. JOSM jar is only 12Mb today.

Cheers,
Vincent

2018-03-08 11:19 GMT+01:00 Dirk Stöcker <[hidden email]>:

> On Thu, 8 Mar 2018, Dirk Stöcker wrote:
>
> [nothing]
>
> Sorry, operator error :-)
>
>
> Ciao
> --
> http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available)
>
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Re: The (dark) future of Java on desktop

Richard Z.
In reply to this post by Frederik Ramm
On Thu, Mar 08, 2018 at 08:36:21AM +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote:

> You could sit down today and re-implement everything in, say, C++, and
> it would be relatively straightforward, and while the result would not
> share any of JOSM's codebase, it would still encapsulate all the
> experience and brainpower that has flown into JOSM development over the
> years.

true in principle but you would need a protable GUI that doesn't suck or
you end up programming for at least 3 platforms with 3 sets of bugs,
3 sets of dependencies etc.

Richard

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Re: The (dark) future of Java on desktop

Wiktor Niesiobedzki
In reply to this post by Vincent Privat
My reading of this Oracle post is that is to actually change the way you
ship the applications. Instead of relying on JRE installation on client
station - ship your code bundled with JRE as jlink does (and take care
about all the updates yourself).

Anyway I guess that we can assume that number of end-user installations of
JRE will be shrinking, so shipping JRE together with your application might
be already a good idea. We should watch what Eclipse will do about it (and
all the commercial tooling based on Eclipse). My guess is that they will
not give up on it so easily.

It means then that we need to cover all platforms in our build system. This
would be the case also whatever programming language we will take.

If JOSM were to abandon Java as a language maybe we should think about
extending/repackaging/repurposing QGis? I guess that probably there were
such ideas in the past?

Cheers,

Wiktor

2018-03-08 19:07 GMT+01:00 Vincent Privat <[hidden email]>:

> WebStart is going away. It is the only part of Java that isn't open source
> and they explicitely stated they won't open source it:
> https://twitter.com/DonaldOJDK/status/971492781616136194
>
> So at least starting from September we'll have to make the WebStart link
> less prominent as it won't work anymore for Windows and macOS users having
> their Java up-to-date. It will work natively only on Linux, where openjdk
> package includes the retro-engineered free version of WebStart
> (netx/icedtea-web):
> https://icedtea.classpath.org/wiki/IcedTea-Web
>
> I don't know if the few (single?) people behind IcedTea-Web will have the
> desire to maintain it after Oracle drops it from JDK. I don't know either
> if icedtea-web requires jar signing: maybe we will be able to drop the
> requirement to sign josm.jar, thus asking to Frederik to pay for the
> certificates ;)
>
> JavaFX will be given to someone else soon. Maybe the Eclipse Foundation,
> like Java EE which has be transferred to Eclipse, without the permission to
> call it Java EE anymore. Or maybe the Apache Foundation, where they already
> made OpenOffice and Hudson die there (given that they have been
> successfully forked as LibreOffice and Jenkins).
>
> AWT and Swing will still be here in Java 11. But the fact they mention it
> explicitely today probably means they have plans to remove it as soon as
> Java 12 development starts (in 6 months). I have no idea if the new project
> will create enough traction to have enough contributors (volunteers or pais
> staff from other companies), we'll see. Swing is still used a lot in the
> industry. At least we should be able to fix Swing bugs ourselves when we
> find ones.
>
> Concerning JOSM it means we will probably have to ship AWT, Swing and
> JavaFX in josm.jar. In JDK9 the desktop module (AWT+Swing) weights 13Mb,
> the various JavaFX modules 30Mb. JOSM jar is only 12Mb today.
>
> Cheers,
> Vincent
>
> 2018-03-08 11:19 GMT+01:00 Dirk Stöcker <[hidden email]>:
>
> > On Thu, 8 Mar 2018, Dirk Stöcker wrote:
> >
> > [nothing]
> >
> > Sorry, operator error :-)
> >
> >
> > Ciao
> > --
> > http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available)
> >
>
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Re: The (dark) future of Java on desktop

Michael Zangl-3
I don't think it's worth speculating now.

(1) The linked document mostly focuses on Java web start (which is just
a convenience for some users - but we can ship JOSM otherwise, e.g.
using a launcher like many java programs do) and other non-JOSM
technologies (we have only one class depending on JavaFX)

(2) For Swing/AWT (that's what we use), I could not find any hint that
it will be dropped. Instead, Oracle is stating that it will be supported
at least until 2026 - that's 8 years. Finding a programming framework
that will be supported in 8 years is very difficult. Even web browsers
change faster than this and many web applications that worked 5 years
ago are already broken.
(They mentioned the java 11 release explicitly because it is a LTS release)

Don't worry, we will be fine with java for now ;-).

And if one day we won't, computers will be so powerful that we can
transpile everything to javascript :D

Michael

Am 08.03.2018 um 23:54 schrieb Wiktor Niesiobedzki:

> My reading of this Oracle post is that is to actually change the way you
> ship the applications. Instead of relying on JRE installation on client
> station - ship your code bundled with JRE as jlink does (and take care
> about all the updates yourself).
>
> Anyway I guess that we can assume that number of end-user installations of
> JRE will be shrinking, so shipping JRE together with your application might
> be already a good idea. We should watch what Eclipse will do about it (and
> all the commercial tooling based on Eclipse). My guess is that they will
> not give up on it so easily.
>
> It means then that we need to cover all platforms in our build system. This
> would be the case also whatever programming language we will take.
>
> If JOSM were to abandon Java as a language maybe we should think about
> extending/repackaging/repurposing QGis? I guess that probably there were
> such ideas in the past?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Wiktor
>
> 2018-03-08 19:07 GMT+01:00 Vincent Privat <[hidden email]>:
>
>> WebStart is going away. It is the only part of Java that isn't open source
>> and they explicitely stated they won't open source it:
>> https://twitter.com/DonaldOJDK/status/971492781616136194
>>
>> So at least starting from September we'll have to make the WebStart link
>> less prominent as it won't work anymore for Windows and macOS users having
>> their Java up-to-date. It will work natively only on Linux, where openjdk
>> package includes the retro-engineered free version of WebStart
>> (netx/icedtea-web):
>> https://icedtea.classpath.org/wiki/IcedTea-Web
>>
>> I don't know if the few (single?) people behind IcedTea-Web will have the
>> desire to maintain it after Oracle drops it from JDK. I don't know either
>> if icedtea-web requires jar signing: maybe we will be able to drop the
>> requirement to sign josm.jar, thus asking to Frederik to pay for the
>> certificates ;)
>>
>> JavaFX will be given to someone else soon. Maybe the Eclipse Foundation,
>> like Java EE which has be transferred to Eclipse, without the permission to
>> call it Java EE anymore. Or maybe the Apache Foundation, where they already
>> made OpenOffice and Hudson die there (given that they have been
>> successfully forked as LibreOffice and Jenkins).
>>
>> AWT and Swing will still be here in Java 11. But the fact they mention it
>> explicitely today probably means they have plans to remove it as soon as
>> Java 12 development starts (in 6 months). I have no idea if the new project
>> will create enough traction to have enough contributors (volunteers or pais
>> staff from other companies), we'll see. Swing is still used a lot in the
>> industry. At least we should be able to fix Swing bugs ourselves when we
>> find ones.
>>
>> Concerning JOSM it means we will probably have to ship AWT, Swing and
>> JavaFX in josm.jar. In JDK9 the desktop module (AWT+Swing) weights 13Mb,
>> the various JavaFX modules 30Mb. JOSM jar is only 12Mb today.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Vincent
>>
>> 2018-03-08 11:19 GMT+01:00 Dirk Stöcker <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>> On Thu, 8 Mar 2018, Dirk Stöcker wrote:
>>>
>>> [nothing]
>>>
>>> Sorry, operator error :-)
>>>
>>>
>>> Ciao
>>> --
>>> http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available)
>>>
>>

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Re: The (dark) future of Java on desktop

Dirk Stöcker
In reply to this post by Richard Z.
On Thu, 8 Mar 2018, Richard wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 08, 2018 at 08:36:21AM +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote:
>
>> You could sit down today and re-implement everything in, say, C++, and
>> it would be relatively straightforward, and while the result would not
>> share any of JOSM's codebase, it would still encapsulate all the
>> experience and brainpower that has flown into JOSM development over the
>> years.
>
> true in principle but you would need a protable GUI that doesn't suck or
> you end up programming for at least 3 platforms with 3 sets of bugs,
> 3 sets of dependencies etc.

Reimplementing an existing software like JOSM which has an estimated cost
of more than hundred development years (https://www.openhub.net/p/josm) in
another language in an non-profit OS application is doomed to fail in my
eyes. The motivation for a programmer to take an existing software and
reimplement everything again is low. For a very long time you will not
have something which is usable and inbetween you have tasks to do, but no
positive feedback. That may work when the people are paid for it, but not
when programmers need to be motivated. I'd consider people beeing motived
by such a task very strange. :-)

Rather than that if JOSM really dies some of the better ideas of it will
be taken and implemented in existing or new software (which BTW is already
happening, e.g. osmosis taking the Validator MapCSS or many other things).

If there is a way to automatically convert the code and start with a
working base, then the situation is different...

But I also don't think this is necessary (ATM).

Ciao
--
http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available)

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Re: The (dark) future of Java on desktop

Vincent Privat
If we were to abandon AWT/Swing, migrating to SWT might be another option.
I don't think it would be easy, but at least it's actively maintained:
https://www.openhub.net/p/swt/contributors/summary

2018-03-09 10:40 GMT+01:00 Dirk Stöcker <[hidden email]>:

> On Thu, 8 Mar 2018, Richard wrote:
>
> On Thu, Mar 08, 2018 at 08:36:21AM +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote:
>>
>> You could sit down today and re-implement everything in, say, C++, and
>>> it would be relatively straightforward, and while the result would not
>>> share any of JOSM's codebase, it would still encapsulate all the
>>> experience and brainpower that has flown into JOSM development over the
>>> years.
>>>
>>
>> true in principle but you would need a protable GUI that doesn't suck or
>> you end up programming for at least 3 platforms with 3 sets of bugs,
>> 3 sets of dependencies etc.
>>
>
> Reimplementing an existing software like JOSM which has an estimated cost
> of more than hundred development years (https://www.openhub.net/p/josm)
> in another language in an non-profit OS application is doomed to fail in my
> eyes. The motivation for a programmer to take an existing software and
> reimplement everything again is low. For a very long time you will not have
> something which is usable and inbetween you have tasks to do, but no
> positive feedback. That may work when the people are paid for it, but not
> when programmers need to be motivated. I'd consider people beeing motived
> by such a task very strange. :-)
>
> Rather than that if JOSM really dies some of the better ideas of it will
> be taken and implemented in existing or new software (which BTW is already
> happening, e.g. osmosis taking the Validator MapCSS or many other things).
>
> If there is a way to automatically convert the code and start with a
> working base, then the situation is different...
>
> But I also don't think this is necessary (ATM).
>
>
> Ciao
> --
> http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available)
>
>
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Re: The (dark) future of Java on desktop

Vincent Privat
One month already and I still don't know what to do regarding WebStart.
I found out this: https://developers.redhat.com/products/openjdk/download/
Red Hat is providing an implementation of OpenJDK 8 on Windows containing:
- OpenJDK
- OpenJFX
- WebStart based on IcedTea-Web
- An auto-update feature (a small simple script registered to Windows Task
Scheduler)

The good news:
- This is exactly what we would need for JDK 11.
- I tested it and it works perfectly. We have nothing to change in JOSM to
make it work with this runtime.

The bad news:
- It is only available to Java developers. A (free) RedHat account is
required, and it is forbidden to redistribute it.
- there is a version of Java 9 but it does only contain OpenJDK (thus it is
useless)
- there is no macOS runtime

Does someone on this list has a professionnal RedHat account, or know
someone there? I'd like to know if we can hope to see RedHat releasing
OpenJDK 11 it as a public runtime, free or charge and not requiring a user
account, which would contain the same components as their OpenJDK 8
version. This way we would only have to tell people to uninstall their
Oracle runtime and install the Red Hat runtime instead.


2018-03-10 18:05 GMT+01:00 Vincent Privat <[hidden email]>:

> If we were to abandon AWT/Swing, migrating to SWT might be another option.
> I don't think it would be easy, but at least it's actively maintained:
> https://www.openhub.net/p/swt/contributors/summary
>
> 2018-03-09 10:40 GMT+01:00 Dirk Stöcker <[hidden email]>:
>
>> On Thu, 8 Mar 2018, Richard wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 08, 2018 at 08:36:21AM +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote:
>>>
>>> You could sit down today and re-implement everything in, say, C++, and
>>>> it would be relatively straightforward, and while the result would not
>>>> share any of JOSM's codebase, it would still encapsulate all the
>>>> experience and brainpower that has flown into JOSM development over the
>>>> years.
>>>>
>>>
>>> true in principle but you would need a protable GUI that doesn't suck or
>>> you end up programming for at least 3 platforms with 3 sets of bugs,
>>> 3 sets of dependencies etc.
>>>
>>
>> Reimplementing an existing software like JOSM which has an estimated cost
>> of more than hundred development years (https://www.openhub.net/p/josm)
>> in another language in an non-profit OS application is doomed to fail in my
>> eyes. The motivation for a programmer to take an existing software and
>> reimplement everything again is low. For a very long time you will not have
>> something which is usable and inbetween you have tasks to do, but no
>> positive feedback. That may work when the people are paid for it, but not
>> when programmers need to be motivated. I'd consider people beeing motived
>> by such a task very strange. :-)
>>
>> Rather than that if JOSM really dies some of the better ideas of it will
>> be taken and implemented in existing or new software (which BTW is already
>> happening, e.g. osmosis taking the Validator MapCSS or many other things).
>>
>> If there is a way to automatically convert the code and start with a
>> working base, then the situation is different...
>>
>> But I also don't think this is necessary (ATM).
>>
>>
>> Ciao
>> --
>> http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available)
>>
>>
>
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Re: The (dark) future of Java on desktop

Vincent Privat
Hello,
I got in contact with Jiri Vanek. He might be our saviour.
As some of you may know, he's the one behind IcedTea-Web (ITW: the free &
open-source implementation of Java WebStart in the IcedTea project):
https://icedtea.classpath.org/wiki/IcedTea-Web

The project is still actively developed (the 1.8 version is in progress).
http://icedtea.classpath.org/hg/icedtea-web/

Last year, Jiri added support for Windows, which I validated with the
RedHat build.
Jiri's also part of the AdoptOpenJdk initiative which aimes to provide a
build farm of OpenJDK with certified binaries on all platforms:
https://adoptopenjdk.net/releases.html

If I understood correctly, these builds are going to provide JavaFX and ITW
once the version 1.8 is finished!

So we have to test ITW on Windows and macOS to make sure it works with Java
10 and early builds of Java 11. Then we'll have to check if it still works
once Oracle completely removes Java WebStart (I don't know the impacts it
could have on ITW).

I'm currently trying to build & test ITW on Windows.

Cheers,
Vincent

2018-04-11 20:41 GMT+02:00 Vincent Privat <[hidden email]>:

> One month already and I still don't know what to do regarding WebStart.
> I found out this: https://developers.redhat.com/products/openjdk/download/
> Red Hat is providing an implementation of OpenJDK 8 on Windows containing:
> - OpenJDK
> - OpenJFX
> - WebStart based on IcedTea-Web
> - An auto-update feature (a small simple script registered to Windows Task
> Scheduler)
>
> The good news:
> - This is exactly what we would need for JDK 11.
> - I tested it and it works perfectly. We have nothing to change in JOSM to
> make it work with this runtime.
>
> The bad news:
> - It is only available to Java developers. A (free) RedHat account is
> required, and it is forbidden to redistribute it.
> - there is a version of Java 9 but it does only contain OpenJDK (thus it
> is useless)
> - there is no macOS runtime
>
> Does someone on this list has a professionnal RedHat account, or know
> someone there? I'd like to know if we can hope to see RedHat releasing
> OpenJDK 11 it as a public runtime, free or charge and not requiring a user
> account, which would contain the same components as their OpenJDK 8
> version. This way we would only have to tell people to uninstall their
> Oracle runtime and install the Red Hat runtime instead.
>
>
> 2018-03-10 18:05 GMT+01:00 Vincent Privat <[hidden email]>:
>
>> If we were to abandon AWT/Swing, migrating to SWT might be another
>> option. I don't think it would be easy, but at least it's actively
>> maintained: https://www.openhub.net/p/swt/contributors/summary
>>
>> 2018-03-09 10:40 GMT+01:00 Dirk Stöcker <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>> On Thu, 8 Mar 2018, Richard wrote:
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 08, 2018 at 08:36:21AM +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote:
>>>>
>>>> You could sit down today and re-implement everything in, say, C++, and
>>>>> it would be relatively straightforward, and while the result would not
>>>>> share any of JOSM's codebase, it would still encapsulate all the
>>>>> experience and brainpower that has flown into JOSM development over the
>>>>> years.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> true in principle but you would need a protable GUI that doesn't suck or
>>>> you end up programming for at least 3 platforms with 3 sets of bugs,
>>>> 3 sets of dependencies etc.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Reimplementing an existing software like JOSM which has an estimated
>>> cost of more than hundred development years (
>>> https://www.openhub.net/p/josm) in another language in an non-profit OS
>>> application is doomed to fail in my eyes. The motivation for a programmer
>>> to take an existing software and reimplement everything again is low. For a
>>> very long time you will not have something which is usable and inbetween
>>> you have tasks to do, but no positive feedback. That may work when the
>>> people are paid for it, but not when programmers need to be motivated. I'd
>>> consider people beeing motived by such a task very strange. :-)
>>>
>>> Rather than that if JOSM really dies some of the better ideas of it will
>>> be taken and implemented in existing or new software (which BTW is already
>>> happening, e.g. osmosis taking the Validator MapCSS or many other things).
>>>
>>> If there is a way to automatically convert the code and start with a
>>> working base, then the situation is different...
>>>
>>> But I also don't think this is necessary (ATM).
>>>
>>>
>>> Ciao
>>> --
>>> http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available)
>>>
>>>
>>
>
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Re: The (dark) future of Java on desktop

Jo-2
Good news! Who needs Oracle anyway :-)

Polyglot

2018-04-16 20:36 GMT+02:00 Vincent Privat <[hidden email]>:

> Hello,
> I got in contact with Jiri Vanek. He might be our saviour.
> As some of you may know, he's the one behind IcedTea-Web (ITW: the free &
> open-source implementation of Java WebStart in the IcedTea project):
> https://icedtea.classpath.org/wiki/IcedTea-Web
>
> The project is still actively developed (the 1.8 version is in progress).
> http://icedtea.classpath.org/hg/icedtea-web/
>
> Last year, Jiri added support for Windows, which I validated with the
> RedHat build.
> Jiri's also part of the AdoptOpenJdk initiative which aimes to provide a
> build farm of OpenJDK with certified binaries on all platforms:
> https://adoptopenjdk.net/releases.html
>
> If I understood correctly, these builds are going to provide JavaFX and ITW
> once the version 1.8 is finished!
>
> So we have to test ITW on Windows and macOS to make sure it works with Java
> 10 and early builds of Java 11. Then we'll have to check if it still works
> once Oracle completely removes Java WebStart (I don't know the impacts it
> could have on ITW).
>
> I'm currently trying to build & test ITW on Windows.
>
> Cheers,
> Vincent
>
> 2018-04-11 20:41 GMT+02:00 Vincent Privat <[hidden email]>:
>
> > One month already and I still don't know what to do regarding WebStart.
> > I found out this: https://developers.redhat.com/
> products/openjdk/download/
> > Red Hat is providing an implementation of OpenJDK 8 on Windows
> containing:
> > - OpenJDK
> > - OpenJFX
> > - WebStart based on IcedTea-Web
> > - An auto-update feature (a small simple script registered to Windows
> Task
> > Scheduler)
> >
> > The good news:
> > - This is exactly what we would need for JDK 11.
> > - I tested it and it works perfectly. We have nothing to change in JOSM
> to
> > make it work with this runtime.
> >
> > The bad news:
> > - It is only available to Java developers. A (free) RedHat account is
> > required, and it is forbidden to redistribute it.
> > - there is a version of Java 9 but it does only contain OpenJDK (thus it
> > is useless)
> > - there is no macOS runtime
> >
> > Does someone on this list has a professionnal RedHat account, or know
> > someone there? I'd like to know if we can hope to see RedHat releasing
> > OpenJDK 11 it as a public runtime, free or charge and not requiring a
> user
> > account, which would contain the same components as their OpenJDK 8
> > version. This way we would only have to tell people to uninstall their
> > Oracle runtime and install the Red Hat runtime instead.
> >
> >
> > 2018-03-10 18:05 GMT+01:00 Vincent Privat <[hidden email]>:
> >
> >> If we were to abandon AWT/Swing, migrating to SWT might be another
> >> option. I don't think it would be easy, but at least it's actively
> >> maintained: https://www.openhub.net/p/swt/contributors/summary
> >>
> >> 2018-03-09 10:40 GMT+01:00 Dirk Stöcker <[hidden email]>:
> >>
> >>> On Thu, 8 Mar 2018, Richard wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Mar 08, 2018 at 08:36:21AM +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> You could sit down today and re-implement everything in, say, C++, and
> >>>>> it would be relatively straightforward, and while the result would
> not
> >>>>> share any of JOSM's codebase, it would still encapsulate all the
> >>>>> experience and brainpower that has flown into JOSM development over
> the
> >>>>> years.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> true in principle but you would need a protable GUI that doesn't suck
> or
> >>>> you end up programming for at least 3 platforms with 3 sets of bugs,
> >>>> 3 sets of dependencies etc.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Reimplementing an existing software like JOSM which has an estimated
> >>> cost of more than hundred development years (
> >>> https://www.openhub.net/p/josm) in another language in an non-profit
> OS
> >>> application is doomed to fail in my eyes. The motivation for a
> programmer
> >>> to take an existing software and reimplement everything again is low.
> For a
> >>> very long time you will not have something which is usable and
> inbetween
> >>> you have tasks to do, but no positive feedback. That may work when the
> >>> people are paid for it, but not when programmers need to be motivated.
> I'd
> >>> consider people beeing motived by such a task very strange. :-)
> >>>
> >>> Rather than that if JOSM really dies some of the better ideas of it
> will
> >>> be taken and implemented in existing or new software (which BTW is
> already
> >>> happening, e.g. osmosis taking the Validator MapCSS or many other
> things).
> >>>
> >>> If there is a way to automatically convert the code and start with a
> >>> working base, then the situation is different...
> >>>
> >>> But I also don't think this is necessary (ATM).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Ciao
> >>> --
> >>> http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
>
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Re: The (dark) future of Java on desktop

Vincent Privat
Indeed, I think the JOSM message of the day in September won't be exactly
polite against Oracle!

2018-04-16 20:44 GMT+02:00 Jo <[hidden email]>:

> Good news! Who needs Oracle anyway :-)
>
> Polyglot
>
> 2018-04-16 20:36 GMT+02:00 Vincent Privat <[hidden email]>:
>
>> Hello,
>> I got in contact with Jiri Vanek. He might be our saviour.
>> As some of you may know, he's the one behind IcedTea-Web (ITW: the free &
>> open-source implementation of Java WebStart in the IcedTea project):
>> https://icedtea.classpath.org/wiki/IcedTea-Web
>>
>> The project is still actively developed (the 1.8 version is in progress).
>> http://icedtea.classpath.org/hg/icedtea-web/
>>
>> Last year, Jiri added support for Windows, which I validated with the
>> RedHat build.
>> Jiri's also part of the AdoptOpenJdk initiative which aimes to provide a
>> build farm of OpenJDK with certified binaries on all platforms:
>> https://adoptopenjdk.net/releases.html
>>
>> If I understood correctly, these builds are going to provide JavaFX and
>> ITW
>> once the version 1.8 is finished!
>>
>> So we have to test ITW on Windows and macOS to make sure it works with
>> Java
>> 10 and early builds of Java 11. Then we'll have to check if it still works
>> once Oracle completely removes Java WebStart (I don't know the impacts it
>> could have on ITW).
>>
>> I'm currently trying to build & test ITW on Windows.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Vincent
>>
>> 2018-04-11 20:41 GMT+02:00 Vincent Privat <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> > One month already and I still don't know what to do regarding WebStart.
>> > I found out this: https://developers.redhat.com/
>> products/openjdk/download/
>> > Red Hat is providing an implementation of OpenJDK 8 on Windows
>> containing:
>> > - OpenJDK
>> > - OpenJFX
>> > - WebStart based on IcedTea-Web
>> > - An auto-update feature (a small simple script registered to Windows
>> Task
>> > Scheduler)
>> >
>> > The good news:
>> > - This is exactly what we would need for JDK 11.
>> > - I tested it and it works perfectly. We have nothing to change in JOSM
>> to
>> > make it work with this runtime.
>> >
>> > The bad news:
>> > - It is only available to Java developers. A (free) RedHat account is
>> > required, and it is forbidden to redistribute it.
>> > - there is a version of Java 9 but it does only contain OpenJDK (thus it
>> > is useless)
>> > - there is no macOS runtime
>> >
>> > Does someone on this list has a professionnal RedHat account, or know
>> > someone there? I'd like to know if we can hope to see RedHat releasing
>> > OpenJDK 11 it as a public runtime, free or charge and not requiring a
>> user
>> > account, which would contain the same components as their OpenJDK 8
>> > version. This way we would only have to tell people to uninstall their
>> > Oracle runtime and install the Red Hat runtime instead.
>> >
>> >
>> > 2018-03-10 18:05 GMT+01:00 Vincent Privat <[hidden email]>:
>> >
>> >> If we were to abandon AWT/Swing, migrating to SWT might be another
>> >> option. I don't think it would be easy, but at least it's actively
>> >> maintained: https://www.openhub.net/p/swt/contributors/summary
>> >>
>> >> 2018-03-09 10:40 GMT+01:00 Dirk Stöcker <[hidden email]>:
>> >>
>> >>> On Thu, 8 Mar 2018, Richard wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, Mar 08, 2018 at 08:36:21AM +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> You could sit down today and re-implement everything in, say, C++,
>> and
>> >>>>> it would be relatively straightforward, and while the result would
>> not
>> >>>>> share any of JOSM's codebase, it would still encapsulate all the
>> >>>>> experience and brainpower that has flown into JOSM development over
>> the
>> >>>>> years.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> true in principle but you would need a protable GUI that doesn't
>> suck or
>> >>>> you end up programming for at least 3 platforms with 3 sets of bugs,
>> >>>> 3 sets of dependencies etc.
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Reimplementing an existing software like JOSM which has an estimated
>> >>> cost of more than hundred development years (
>> >>> https://www.openhub.net/p/josm) in another language in an non-profit
>> OS
>> >>> application is doomed to fail in my eyes. The motivation for a
>> programmer
>> >>> to take an existing software and reimplement everything again is low.
>> For a
>> >>> very long time you will not have something which is usable and
>> inbetween
>> >>> you have tasks to do, but no positive feedback. That may work when the
>> >>> people are paid for it, but not when programmers need to be
>> motivated. I'd
>> >>> consider people beeing motived by such a task very strange. :-)
>> >>>
>> >>> Rather than that if JOSM really dies some of the better ideas of it
>> will
>> >>> be taken and implemented in existing or new software (which BTW is
>> already
>> >>> happening, e.g. osmosis taking the Validator MapCSS or many other
>> things).
>> >>>
>> >>> If there is a way to automatically convert the code and start with a
>> >>> working base, then the situation is different...
>> >>>
>> >>> But I also don't think this is necessary (ATM).
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Ciao
>> >>> --
>> >>> http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available)
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>>
>
>