Tourist bus stop

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Re: Tourist bus stop

Kevin Kenny-3
On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 7:37 AM Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Sep 2019 at 07:13, Jo <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> When I saw the initial conversation in Italian, I thought the person asking was asking about coach buses that were transporting tourists on an on demand, or on group reservation basis. For such buses there are dedicated areas where they can load / unload people, but that's more like parking.

In the US (yes, I *know* that the language of OSM tagging is en-uk,
but I'm not a native speaker of the UK variant!) the term for those
would be 'charter[ed] bus'.

> These are tourist buses https://edinburghtour.com/

As an American, those are 'tour buses' and I'm fine if you want to
say, 'tourist buses'. But I think that it's highly likely that none of
us has a clue what the original Italian poster was talking about,
which is the cause of the confusion.

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Re: Tourist bus stop

Paul Allen


On Mon, 16 Sep 2019 at 13:34, Kevin Kenny <[hidden email]> wrote:

In the US (yes, I *know* that the language of OSM tagging is en-uk,
but I'm not a native speaker of the UK variant!) the term for those
would be 'charter[ed] bus'.

We have chartered transport too.  But chartered coaches are in a different
category from day tours and coach holidays.  A day tour is a coach excursion
organized by the coach operator, advertised by the coach operator, and the
hope is that enough people will go on it that the operator makes a profit.
A coach holiday is organized by the coach operator, advertised by the coach
operator, and the hope is that enough people will go on it that the operator
makes a profit.  With a charter, you and some friends decide you want to go
somewhere on a particular date, approach an operator and ask how much it
would cost to be taken there.

> These are tourist buses https://edinburghtour.com/

As an American, those are 'tour buses' and I'm fine if you want to
say, 'tourist buses'.

I think tour buses may be more common here.  But I'd settle for either term
being use to describe that type of thing and not some weird concept that
we have now that is confusing everyone.
 
But I think that it's highly likely that none of us has a clue what the original Italian
poster was talking about, which is the cause of the confusion.

Indeed.  All we can try to do is sort it all out.  To do that, we need to know what we
are talking about.  I think we can ignore whatever it was the original poster intended.
I blame Google Translate. :)

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Re: Tourist bus stop

Kevin Kenny-3
On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 10:24 AM Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Indeed.  All we can try to do is sort it all out.  To do that, we need to know what we
> are talking about.  I think we can ignore whatever it was the original poster intended.
> I blame Google Translate. :)

So, solving the original poster's problem is now out of scope?  :shrug:

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Re: Tourist bus stop

Paul Allen
On Mon, 16 Sep 2019 at 15:30, Kevin Kenny <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 10:24 AM Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Indeed.  All we can try to do is sort it all out.  To do that, we need to know what we
> are talking about.  I think we can ignore whatever it was the original poster intended.
> I blame Google Translate. :)

So, solving the original poster's problem is now out of scope?  :shrug:

Not entirely out of scope.  But we shouldn't let whatever he or she was trying to
achieve twist our tagging into using archaisms like "motorbus" in an attempt to
make up for using terms like "coach" and "tourist bus" in ways that don't match
British English (or even American English) usage.  If, by accident, sorting it all
out fixes the OP's problem then so much the better.  If not, then at least the OP
can clarify what he/she wanted as we've eliminated some of the possibilities.

What we shouldn't waste any more time on is trying to guess what the OP was
trying to achieve.  We've given that a try and we still don't know.

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Re: Tourist bus stop

dieterdreist
Am Mo., 16. Sept. 2019 um 17:01 Uhr schrieb Paul Allen <[hidden email]>:
On Mon, 16 Sep 2019 at 15:30, Kevin Kenny <[hidden email]> wrote:
So, solving the original poster's problem is now out of scope?  :shrug:

Not entirely out of scope.  But we shouldn't let whatever he or she was trying to
achieve twist our tagging into using archaisms like "motorbus" in an attempt to
make up for using terms like "coach" and "tourist bus" in ways that don't match
British English (or even American English) usage. 


is "motorcar" a term that is common in British English?

How do you tag the generic bus class in Britain?

FWIW, the common term "bus" is already taken for buses acting as public service vehicles, so there must be something else for the generic vehicle class for buses. I am not insisting on "motorbus", but it seemed to fit with the rest of the terms, and it didn't seem to have specific meaning, which the currently documented "tourist_bus" obviously has.

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: Tourist bus stop

Paul Allen


On Mon, 16 Sep 2019 at 18:25, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

is "motorcar" a term that is common in British English?

Not much.

How do you tag the generic bus class in Britain?

Is there such a thing?  There are buses which operate to a timetable and anyone may board
or alight at specified stops (perhaps elsewhere at the driver's discretion).  There are coaches
use for day trips and coaches for long distance.  All are classed by the UK gov't as PSVs
(as are taxis, minibuses and stretch limos).

FWIW, the common term "bus" is already taken for buses acting as public service vehicles,

Except "PSV" doesn't mean what you think it means in the UK.  But I'm happy with how OSM
uses the term bus, because that's how most people in the UK use it, and I think is what our
gov't calls a "registered local service."

so there must be something else for the generic vehicle class for buses.

There must?  Why?  I can't think of it.  There may very well be one, in common usage,
but it doesn't spring to mind.
 
I am not insisting on "motorbus", but it seemed to fit with the rest of the terms, and it didn't seem to have specific meaning, which the currently documented "tourist_bus" obviously has.

There was a time when all buses were pulled by horses.  Then along came Daimler, Otto
and others and eventually there were new-fangled motorbuses.  Proudly called motorbuses
because they had a motor instead of being pulled by horses.  More time passed and
horse-drawn buses became a rarity, and what were once called motorbuses were simply
called buses.  Although horse-drawn buses are exceedingly rare, they would also fit into
the generic, as yet unnamed, category that includes buses, coaches, minibuses, etc.
Motorbus is pretty much an archaism.

Since a bus and coach are extremes in terms of size and weight of PSVs, and look
very similar from the outside, I'd be reasonably happy to accept access=bus as meaning
both.  I can foresee the possibility that buses are allowed but coaches are not, but is it
likely?  No doubt somebody will chip in with an example.  Actually, I can think of one:
an automatic vehicle barrier that opens if it detects a bus (local registered service)
but not any other type of vehicle, so it would exclude coaches.  Yes, such a thing
exists.

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Re: Tourist bus stop

sdoerr
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
On 15/09/2019 22:45, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
I would use “motorbus” for the bus class, motorcar and motorcycle indicate there’s a system.

Must say 'motor bus' sounds really quaint to an English speaker. It's a term that belongs to the early 1900s when there were still maybe a few horse-drawn buses around. It just makes me think of this poem from 1914:
What is this that roareth thus?
Can it be a Motor Bus?
Yes, the smell and hideous hum
Indicat Motorem Bum!
Implet in the Corn and High
Terror me Motoris Bi:
Bo Motori clamitabo
Ne Motore caedar a Bo---
Dative be or Ablative
So thou only let us live:---
Whither shall thy victims flee?
Spare us, spare us, Motor Be!
Thus I sang; and still anigh
Came in hordes Motores Bi,
Et complebat omne forum
Copia Motorum Borum.
How shall wretches live like us
Cincti Bis Motoribus?
Domine, defende nos
Contra hos Motores Bos!

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Re: Tourist bus stop

Graeme Fitzpatrick
Only knowing Australian buses / coaches, I'm not sure if this applies world-wide, but a major distinction between the two here, is that a coach has a toilet on board, while a bus doesn't.

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Tourist bus stop

Paul Allen
On Mon, 16 Sep 2019 at 23:51, Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:
Only knowing Australian buses / coaches, I'm not sure if this applies world-wide, but a major distinction between the two here, is that a coach has a toilet on board, while a bus doesn't.

Wow!  You have posh coaches there!

More seriously, many decades ago it was rare for coaches to have a toilet on board, and
stops along the way were necessary.  Toilets on coaches are far more common these
days, but I expect you can find a few old coaches run by cheapskate operators without
them.  The most you can be sure of here is that the seats are more comfortable than
on buses and there is a luggage compartment.

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Re: Tourist bus stop

Graeme Fitzpatrick
I guess that's the difference when your long trip is 1 hour! :-)

Thanks

Graeme


On Tue, 17 Sep 2019 at 08:59, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, 16 Sep 2019 at 23:51, Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:
Only knowing Australian buses / coaches, I'm not sure if this applies world-wide, but a major distinction between the two here, is that a coach has a toilet on board, while a bus doesn't.

Wow!  You have posh coaches there!

More seriously, many decades ago it was rare for coaches to have a toilet on board, and
stops along the way were necessary.  Toilets on coaches are far more common these
days, but I expect you can find a few old coaches run by cheapskate operators without
them.  The most you can be sure of here is that the seats are more comfortable than
on buses and there is a luggage compartment.

--
Paul

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Re: Tourist bus stop

Warin
In reply to this post by Paul Allen
On 17/09/19 04:11, Paul Allen wrote:


On Mon, 16 Sep 2019 at 18:25, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

is "motorcar" a term that is common in British English?

Not much.

How do you tag the generic bus class in Britain?

Is there such a thing?  There are buses which operate to a timetable and anyone may board
or alight at specified stops (perhaps elsewhere at the driver's discretion).  There are coaches
use for day trips and coaches for long distance.  All are classed by the UK gov't as PSVs
(as are taxis, minibuses and stretch limos).

FWIW, the common term "bus" is already taken for buses acting as public service vehicles,

Except "PSV" doesn't mean what you think it means in the UK.  But I'm happy with how OSM
uses the term bus, because that's how most people in the UK use it, and I think is what our
gov't calls a "registered local service."

so there must be something else for the generic vehicle class for buses.

There must?  Why?  I can't think of it.  There may very well be one, in common usage,
but it doesn't spring to mind.
 
I am not insisting on "motorbus", but it seemed to fit with the rest of the terms, and it didn't seem to have specific meaning, which the currently documented "tourist_bus" obviously has.

There was a time when all buses were pulled by horses.

? Umm were they not coaches? Cobb & Co etc.
https://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/britain-1700-to-1900/transport-1750-to-1900/coaches-1750-to-1900/
1700s on.
Oh  I found horsebuses were later.. 1824... humm never heard of them before.

Then along came Daimler, Otto
and others and eventually there were new-fangled motorbuses.  Proudly called motorbuses
because they had a motor instead of being pulled by horses.  More time passed and
horse-drawn buses became a rarity, and what were once called motorbuses were simply
called buses.  Although horse-drawn buses are exceedingly rare, they would also fit into
the generic, as yet unnamed, category that includes buses, coaches, minibuses, etc.
Motorbus is pretty much an archaism.

Since a bus and coach are extremes in terms of size and weight of PSVs, and look
very similar from the outside, I'd be reasonably happy to accept access=bus as meaning
both.  I can foresee the possibility that buses are allowed but coaches are not, but is it
likely?  No doubt somebody will chip in with an example.  Actually, I can think of one:
an automatic vehicle barrier that opens if it detects a bus (local registered service)
but not any other type of vehicle, so it would exclude coaches.  Yes, such a thing
exists.

Tourist coaches here deliver there passengers and then go elsewhere to park in the busy places.
They cannot park in a regular 'bus stop' as those get used by the regular passenger services.


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Re: Tourist bus stop

dieterdreist
I am honestly confused by the discussions about types and features of buses. Are these relevant in the mapping context? Are there any road regulations referring specifically to coaches?
Because there are for buses. Not just buses in public service, but buses intended as a kind of vehicle (in all places I know, this includes coaches and small buses with more than 9 seats).

@Paul From a quick search it seems these specific rules exist in the uk as well, see here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/traffic-signs
signs giving orders-> No buses (over 8 passenger seats)

Cheers Martin 



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Re: Tourist bus stop

Paul Allen
On Tue, 17 Sep 2019 at 23:56, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:
I am honestly confused by the discussions about types and features of buses.

Join the club. :)

Are these relevant in the mapping context?

Yes.  That's how this whole thread started.  Somebody wanting to map places where
coaches stop to let people on and off.  Which are sometimes for coaches alone but
some may be shared with buses.
 
Are there any road regulations referring specifically to coaches?

I have no idea.  It would be a long search to find out, and if you found nothing you
still couldn't be sure you hadn't missed something.

Because there are for buses. Not just buses in public service, but buses intended as a kind of vehicle (in all places I know, this includes coaches and small buses with more than 9 seats).

Even though there may be no generic legislation there may be specific signage.  Access
for buses only would (I surmise) exclude coaches because the buses are permitted in order
to allow passengers to board/alight along that bit of highway whereas coaches would be
using it merely as a short-cut from A to B.  Pedestrianized inner cities areas may allow
buses along some roads that all other traffic is excluded from (except for delivery vehicles
outside shopping hours).  I have seen video of a rising bollard that dropped
to allow a bus through and then rose to block the car following the bus: presumably a coach
would also be blocked because it wouldn't broadcast a valid ID.  See

We do need to keep coaches and buses separate.  And realize that coaches (whether chartered,
for holidays or for day trips) are not the same thing as tourist/tour buses (which are probably in yet
another category for stops and road access).

Oh, and please forget that motorbus ever existed.  Motorcycle is in common use (more
usually motorbike) to distinguish it from an ordinary bicycle.  Motorcar is quaint and
old-fashioned and people would wonder why you said motorcar rather than just car
but would know what you meant.   Motorbus is so antiquated that people would wonder
what you were talking about and ask if you meant a bus.

--
Paul


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Re: Tourist bus stop

voschix
Let's restart this with some basics.

According to Wikipedia:en :
" A bus (contracted from omnibus,[1] with variants multibus, motorbus, autobus, etc.) is a road vehicle designed to carry many passengers."
with the possible subclasses:
" Buses may be used for scheduled bus transport, scheduled coach transport, school transport, private hire, or tourism; promotional buses may be used for political campaigns and others are privately operated for a wide range of purposes, including rock and pop band tour vehicles"
The official German term is "Kraftomnibus"
(according to the German version of the EU documents)

Unfortunately in OSM the term "bus" is used for public-transport buses only:
" Buses, coaches and trolley buses are forms of public transport that operate mainly on the road network. The system consists of bus routes calling at bus stops and bus stations and have a number of related features."
(also to note that in OSM "coaches" are included in the category PT-bus)

And (answering to another question somewhere in this discussion) there are cases where we need in OSM an access tag for these generic buses, for example to map the access restriction announced by this road sign.

Given the orginal "sin" of wrongly limiting the term "bus" to public-transport buses in OSM (which I believe cannot be undone), we need to sort this out by creating other terms.
I have no proposal for this, but the original proposal of defining positions where non-PT buses load/unload passengers is basically a good one.
The real problem is to properly define different classes of mulit-seated-motor-vehicles-with-more-than-8-seats, and then revisit the existing tags accordingly.

Regarding "bus" stops:
PT-buses in many countries have reserved stop locations, where non-PT buses cannot stop.
In many cases PT-bus stops are reserved for buses of specific operators.
And I think (to be verified) that Flixbus is a long-distance PT-bus network, that does not stop at PT-bus stops, but in other locations, often shared with non-PT buses.
I am sure when we look closer at different countries we detect all kinds of hybrids.
One, which I know first hand, is an on-demand night-bus system (in Padova, Italy) that is operated by the company that runs the city's scheduled day-time PT-bus lines. This night-time on-demand service has no fixed routes but allows pick-up/set-down of passengers only at the stop locations of the scheduled service.




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On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 at 01:34, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Tue, 17 Sep 2019 at 23:56, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:
I am honestly confused by the discussions about types and features of buses.

Join the club. :)

Are these relevant in the mapping context?

Yes.  That's how this whole thread started.  Somebody wanting to map places where
coaches stop to let people on and off.  Which are sometimes for coaches alone but
some may be shared with buses.
 
Are there any road regulations referring specifically to coaches?

I have no idea.  It would be a long search to find out, and if you found nothing you
still couldn't be sure you hadn't missed something.

Because there are for buses. Not just buses in public service, but buses intended as a kind of vehicle (in all places I know, this includes coaches and small buses with more than 9 seats).

Even though there may be no generic legislation there may be specific signage.  Access
for buses only would (I surmise) exclude coaches because the buses are permitted in order
to allow passengers to board/alight along that bit of highway whereas coaches would be
using it merely as a short-cut from A to B.  Pedestrianized inner cities areas may allow
buses along some roads that all other traffic is excluded from (except for delivery vehicles
outside shopping hours).  I have seen video of a rising bollard that dropped
to allow a bus through and then rose to block the car following the bus: presumably a coach
would also be blocked because it wouldn't broadcast a valid ID.  See

We do need to keep coaches and buses separate.  And realize that coaches (whether chartered,
for holidays or for day trips) are not the same thing as tourist/tour buses (which are probably in yet
another category for stops and road access).

Oh, and please forget that motorbus ever existed.  Motorcycle is in common use (more
usually motorbike) to distinguish it from an ordinary bicycle.  Motorcar is quaint and
old-fashioned and people would wonder why you said motorcar rather than just car
but would know what you meant.   Motorbus is so antiquated that people would wonder
what you were talking about and ask if you meant a bus.

--
Paul

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Re: Tourist bus stop

dieterdreist
Am Mi., 18. Sept. 2019 um 11:28 Uhr schrieb Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]>:

Unfortunately in OSM the term "bus" is used for public-transport buses only:


+1

 
" Buses, coaches and trolley buses are forms of public transport that operate mainly on the road network. The system consists of bus routes calling at bus stops and bus stations and have a number of related features."
(also to note that in OSM "coaches" are included in the category PT-bus)


not only in OSM, also legally they are mostly the same (differences are derived from the fact that coaches typically do not have places to stand, while inner urban buses usually provide many standing places). Still, not all coaches are in the "bus" category of OSM, on the contrary, only few, which are those used for public transport (longer distances).


 

And (answering to another question somewhere in this discussion) there are cases where we need in OSM an access tag for these generic buses, for example to map the access restriction announced by this road sign.


thank you for repeating it, I do not know how it came it was ignored at least 2 times here in the previous discussion.

 

Given the orginal "sin" of wrongly limiting the term "bus" to public-transport buses in OSM (which I believe cannot be undone), we need to sort this out by creating other terms.
I have no proposal for this, but the original proposal of defining positions where non-PT buses load/unload passengers is basically a good one.
The real problem is to properly define different classes of mulit-seated-motor-vehicles-with-more-than-8-seats, and then revisit the existing tags accordingly.


+1, right now, there is a key for this: "tourist_bus", the definition is suitable, but its name might be misleading.
 
Cheers,
Martin

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Re: Tourist bus stop

dieterdreist
btw.: those "sightseeing buses" that have been mentioned before, might merit their own tags, too. In Rome these are quite common (hence locals don't like them because they are competing for space in the traffic), they are not public transport (I guess they can not use bus lanes for example), but they are different from "regular" coaches too. Usually these are open on the top, you buy a ticket to use them for a certain time (1-2 days) and they follow routes and have stops (dedicated, not shared with public transport) and you can hop on and off as much as you want. They are typical for tourist destinations, e.g. can be found in Seville, Edinburgh, Paris, Palma de Mallorca, Malaga, Barcelona, Amsterdam, Athens, Dublin, Lisbon, Budapest, Brussels (just to copy from one of the companies, surely there will be similar offerings in other parts of the world).


There are several companies which provide this kind of service, and I guess they are not compatible (you cannot use the same ticket for different companies), and with limited routes and pricing at something like 16-25EUR per person and 24h (they will only operate for example from 8:30-19:30 though), these are not an alternative to public transport (1,50 EUR for 2 hours).

I will not map them (unless they pay for it ;-) ), but we should take care that they are NOT mapped as highway=bus_stop, or generally with public transport tags, that's why I mention them.

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: Tourist bus stop

Jo-2
In my own city we have an electric train like bus that has a few stops and is specifically meant for tourists. Not double decker with an open roof and it's slow, but OK. It has an itinerary and dedicated hop on/hop off stops. I would like to be able to map it.

I would also like to be able to map the stops/waiting areas of those long distance bus lines. At the moment, I was simply using highway=bus_stop for them and an approximate itinerary.

Polyglot

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 12:47 PM Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:
btw.: those "sightseeing buses" that have been mentioned before, might merit their own tags, too. In Rome these are quite common (hence locals don't like them because they are competing for space in the traffic), they are not public transport (I guess they can not use bus lanes for example), but they are different from "regular" coaches too. Usually these are open on the top, you buy a ticket to use them for a certain time (1-2 days) and they follow routes and have stops (dedicated, not shared with public transport) and you can hop on and off as much as you want. They are typical for tourist destinations, e.g. can be found in Seville, Edinburgh, Paris, Palma de Mallorca, Malaga, Barcelona, Amsterdam, Athens, Dublin, Lisbon, Budapest, Brussels (just to copy from one of the companies, surely there will be similar offerings in other parts of the world).


There are several companies which provide this kind of service, and I guess they are not compatible (you cannot use the same ticket for different companies), and with limited routes and pricing at something like 16-25EUR per person and 24h (they will only operate for example from 8:30-19:30 though), these are not an alternative to public transport (1,50 EUR for 2 hours).

I will not map them (unless they pay for it ;-) ), but we should take care that they are NOT mapped as highway=bus_stop, or generally with public transport tags, that's why I mention them.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: Tourist bus stop

dieterdreist
Am Mi., 18. Sept. 2019 um 12:59 Uhr schrieb Jo <[hidden email]>:
I would also like to be able to map the stops/waiting areas of those long distance bus lines. At the moment, I was simply using highway=bus_stop for them and an approximate itinerary.


seems common and correct tagging, why are you mentioning it? We do not differentiate bus transport by distance, only whether it is public transport or not.

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: Tourist bus stop

Paul Allen
In reply to this post by voschix
On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 at 10:28, Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:

According to Wikipedia:en :
" A bus (contracted from omnibus,[1] with variants multibus, motorbus, autobus, etc.) is a road vehicle designed to carry many passengers."
with the possible subclasses:
" Buses may be used for scheduled bus transport, scheduled coach transport, school transport, private hire, or tourism; promotional buses may be used for political campaigns and others are privately operated for a wide range of purposes, including rock and pop band tour vehicles"
The official German term is "Kraftomnibus"

I had a look at the road sign you mentioned later in your message.  I couldn't tell if the symbol
meant a bus, a coach, or both.  So I ran it through Google Translate.  This is what came back
for "Kraftomnibus": "buses and coaches."  Wikipedia may use a more generic form of English,
but most speakers of British English do not interpret "bus" as including "coach."
 
Unfortunately in OSM the term "bus" is used for public-transport buses only:

Unfortunate, perhaps, but not wrong.  Because OSM uses British English.  And in British
English "bus" is usually used to mean scheduled public transport other than coaches (long
distance routes may be served by coaches that run to a timetable but we call them coaches, not
buses).

Even Google Translate recognizes that whilst German has the term Kraftomnibus to cover both
buses and coaches, English does not (at least, I can't think of one).  Interpreting British
English "bus" in OSM as meaning "coach or bus" is, I think, somewhat dubious.

" Buses, coaches and trolley buses are forms of public transport that operate mainly on the road network. The system consists of bus routes calling at bus stops and bus stations and have a number of related features."
(also to note that in OSM "coaches" are included in the category PT-bus)

Depends on the type of coach.

We have coaches on long-distance routes, they are timetabled, public transport, but carry
luggage, are designed for comfort rather than mass transit, and typically have just one stop
in any given town or city.  Local regulations for a particular road could permit buses but exclude
that type of coach.  Coaches may have a dedicated stop or share it with local bus services.

We also have coaches that are irregular, taking people to holiday destinations or on day trips.
The comments in the preceding paragraph also apply to these, except there are usually only
two stops, at the termini.

And (answering to another question somewhere in this discussion) there are cases where we need in OSM an access tag for these generic buses, for example to map the access restriction announced by this road sign.

This is the real problem.  We use "bus" in the British English sense for public transport
(marking bus stops as per PTv0/1/2).  But some infer that bus=yes means "bus/coach" for
access.  Not only is that confusing, not only is it reading more into British English "bus" than
there is, but it may be factually wrong: local regulations for a given road may permit buses
but prohibit coaches.

We could have a generic "bus-shaped vehicle carrying passengers" tag, for access.  I think
it is going to be cleaner to add coach=yes so we can have access=no + bus=yes + coach=yes
rather than have access=no + bus_and_coach=yes and then, one day, find out we have a
rare case of a road where coaches are permitted but buses are not.   Having bus=yes
and coach=yes tags allows us to map access by one, the other, both, or neither.  Also I
suspect that many existing bus=yes tags were added with no thought as to whether or
not coaches were permitted, despite those whose language has a word meaning "buses
and coaches" inferring that the British English word "bus" means the same thing.

Given the orginal "sin" of wrongly limiting the term "bus" to public-transport buses in OSM

Or is that the original sin of assuming the British English term has the same meaning as
the German one?

(which I believe cannot be undone),

I agree.  Not feasible.
 
we need to sort this out by creating other terms.
I have no proposal for this, but the original proposal of defining positions where non-PT buses load/unload passengers is basically a good one.
The real problem is to properly define different classes of mulit-seated-motor-vehicles-with-more-than-8-seats, and then revisit the existing tags accordingly.

Yes.  For access, I think coach=yes fixes the problem.  For stopping positions, there are at
least two cases: a dedicated stopping place for coaches, not used by buses; and a bus stop also
used by coaches.  Which was part of the OP's problem.

But that is complicated by the type of coach: long-distance timetabled coaches could (and
probably should) be rendered the same as ordinary bus stops.  But stops for coaches taking
people to holiday destinations or on day tours should not.  Rendering those the same as
ordinary bus stops means that if your car breaks down and you wait at a nearby stop it might
be one where the next holiday coach is in 3 months.

I've just convinced myself we need to differentiate between timetabled, long-distance coaches
and the other kind.  Because regular, timetabled, long-distance coaches are, in many ways,
just comfortable buses that can carry luggage (but may have different access rights on some
roads).

I am sure when we look closer at different countries we detect all kinds of hybrids.
One, which I know first hand, is an on-demand night-bus system (in Padova, Italy) that is operated by the company that runs the city's scheduled day-time PT-bus lines. This night-time on-demand service has no fixed routes but allows pick-up/set-down of passengers only at the stop locations of the scheduled service.

Here we have a couple of operators where you phone up at least a day beforehand and
arrange to be picked up/set down where you specify (as long as it's safe).  So a bit like your
example, except not limited to regular stop locations.  Mine are unmappable.  Yours could
probably be mapped, but I don't have a good suggestion as to how, other than a relation
of some kind).

--
Paul


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Re: Tourist bus stop

Paul Allen
In reply to this post by Jo-2
On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 at 11:59, Jo <[hidden email]> wrote:
In my own city we have an electric train like bus that has a few stops and is specifically meant for tourists. Not double decker with an open roof and it's slow, but OK. It has an itinerary and dedicated hop on/hop off stops. I would like to be able to map it.

Sounds like a tram to me.   Am I missing something?  Does it specifically prohibit non-tourists?

--
Paul


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