Tourist bus stop

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Re: Tourist bus stop

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

On 18. Sep 2019, at 14:18, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:

I had a look at the road sign you mentioned later in your message.  I couldn't tell if the symbol
meant a bus, a coach, or both.  So I ran it through Google Translate.  This is what came back
for "Kraftomnibus": "buses and coaches."  Wikipedia may use a more generic form of English,
but most speakers of British English do not interpret "bus" as including "coach."


your government also seems to include them:
@Paul From a quick search it seems these specific rules exist in the uk as well, see here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/traffic-signs
signs giving orders-> No buses (over 8 passenger seats)


Cheers Martin 

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Re: Tourist bus stop

Paul Allen
On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 at 15:02, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

your government also seems to include them:
@Paul From a quick search it seems these specific rules exist in the uk as well, see here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/traffic-signs
signs giving orders-> No buses (over 8 passenger seats)

In simple signage, yes.  But if you asked most people do those signs apply to coaches
you'd get a variety of answers, because most people think buses and coaches are
different things (except for long-distance coaches, which are somewhat ambiguous).

When you look at the actual law (scattered around several different pieces of
legislation) local bus services carry passengers at separate fares and (if I interpret
it correctly) stops can be no more than 15 miles (straight line distance) apart.  Excursions
and tours (which are usually coaches) are not local bus services.  Hop-on/hop-off
sightseeing buses have to be registered as local bus services.  See
Long-distance coaches are not local bus services.  All of those, from the outside, may look
very similar.  Some of those, from the inside, may look different.  Any of them may have
access rights and stopping positions that the others do not.

As far as legislation, common British English usage, and local regulation of access rights
goes, there is no "one size fits all" term meaning "it's the size of a bus, it looks like a bus
and it carries passengers, and we can safely say that all vehicles matching those criteria
have the same access rights."

Long-distance coaches are very similar in operation to local services except they have
provision to carry luggage, stop less frequently, may have a toilet and often require advance
booking yet may be excluded from some roads that permit local service buses.  I don't
have any examples, but it's easy to conceive of situations where such a distinction would
be made.  We can probably accommodate long-distance coaches with PTvX but need to
think about access=*.

Excursion/tour coaches don't fit in with PTvX (except where they share a stop with a local
registered bus service) or access=*.

Sightseeing buses might fit with PTvX (with possibly a lot of ways being hail and ride) but
again may have different access rights to local registered buses.

Or maybe we should try to squeeze the worms back into the can and be happy with what
we have, even though it is not adequate to describe reality.

--
Paul


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Re: Tourist bus stop

sdoerr
In reply to this post by Paul Allen
On 18/09/2019 13:20, Paul Allen wrote:
On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 at 11:59, Jo <[hidden email]> wrote:
In my own city we have an electric train like bus that has a few stops and is specifically meant for tourists. Not double decker with an open roof and it's slow, but OK. It has an itinerary and dedicated hop on/hop off stops. I would like to be able to map it.

Sounds like a tram to me.   Am I missing something?  Does it specifically prohibit non-tourists?

Sounds like a road-train to me. Probably a mock-up of a steam locomotive towing a chain of carriages behind it. They're so obviously intended for tourists that most locals would not be seen dead using them.

--
Steve

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Re: Tourist bus stop

sdoerr
On 18/09/2019 18:57, Steve Doerr wrote:
>
> Sounds like a road-train to me.
>

Actually I've reallized that the expression I was looking for was 'land
train'.

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Re: Tourist bus stop

Warin
On 19/09/19 07:02, Steve Doerr wrote:
> On 18/09/2019 18:57, Steve Doerr wrote:
>>
>> Sounds like a road-train to me.
>>
>
> Actually I've reallized that the expression I was looking for was
> 'land train'.
>

I don't think so ...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_train


Both 'road tarin' and 'land train' can mean a truck - a tractor with a
few trailers ... usually 50 metres long.

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Re: Tourist bus stop

Joseph Eisenberg
In reply to this post by Paul Allen
This discussion needs to also happen on the proposal page, since it
looks like the original poster is not following all of the emails
here. See:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Tag:highway%3Dtourist_bus_stop

- Joseph

On 9/19/19, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 at 15:02, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> your government also seems to include them:
>>
>> @Paul From a quick search it seems these specific rules exist in the uk
>> as
>> well, see here:
>> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/traffic-signs
>> signs giving orders-> No buses (over 8 passenger seats)
>>
>>
> In simple signage, yes.  But if you asked most people do those signs apply
> to coaches
> you'd get a variety of answers, because most people think buses and coaches
> are
> different things (except for long-distance coaches, which are somewhat
> ambiguous).
>
> When you look at the actual law (scattered around several different pieces
> of
> legislation) local bus services carry passengers at separate fares and (if
> I interpret
> it correctly) stops can be no more than 15 miles (straight line distance)
> apart.  Excursions
> and tours (which are usually coaches) are not local bus services.
> Hop-on/hop-off
> sightseeing buses have to be registered as local bus services.  See
> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/705081/PSV353A_local_service_registrations_-_England__except_London__and_Wales.pdf
> Long-distance coaches are not local bus services.  All of those, from the
> outside, may look
> very similar.  Some of those, from the inside, may look different.  Any of
> them may have
> access rights and stopping positions that the others do not.
>
> As far as legislation, common British English usage, and local regulation
> of access rights
> goes, there is no "one size fits all" term meaning "it's the size of a bus,
> it looks like a bus
> and it carries passengers, and we can safely say that all vehicles matching
> those criteria
> have the same access rights."
>
> Long-distance coaches are very similar in operation to local services
> except they have
> provision to carry luggage, stop less frequently, may have a toilet and
> often require advance
> booking yet may be excluded from some roads that permit local service
> buses.  I don't
> have any examples, but it's easy to conceive of situations where such a
> distinction would
> be made.  We can probably accommodate long-distance coaches with PTvX but
> need to
> think about access=*.
>
> Excursion/tour coaches don't fit in with PTvX (except where they share a
> stop with a local
> registered bus service) or access=*.
>
> Sightseeing buses might fit with PTvX (with possibly a lot of ways being
> hail and ride) but
> again may have different access rights to local registered buses.
>
> Or maybe we should try to squeeze the worms back into the can and be happy
> with what
> we have, even though it is not adequate to describe reality.
>
> --
> Paul
>

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Re: Tourist bus stop

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Paul Allen


sent from a phone

> On 18. Sep 2019, at 17:36, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> In simple signage, yes.  But if you asked most people do those signs apply to coaches
> you'd get a variety of answers, because most people think buses and coaches are
> different things (except for long-distance coaches, which are somewhat ambiguous).


ask the drivers, not „most people“, because if the signs don’t apply to you it is not important that you know the meaning. I don’t think we should map legal situations based on what we think that the majority thinks, but based on the legal situation. It should be clear to whom the sign applies, it should be coded in law.

It doesn’t matter whether different kind of vehicles are considered different „things“ by the people, we should have tags to unambiguously describe the legal situation and the vehicle classes that the law distinguishes.

Cheers Martin
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Re: Tourist bus stop

sdoerr
In reply to this post by Warin
On 19/09/2019 00:29, Warin wrote:

> On 19/09/19 07:02, Steve Doerr wrote:
>> On 18/09/2019 18:57, Steve Doerr wrote:
>>>
>>> Sounds like a road-train to me.
>>>
>>
>> Actually I've reallized that the expression I was looking for was
>> 'land train'.
>>
>
> I don't think so ...
>
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_train

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trackless_train is the relevant entry for
what I have in mind.

--
Steve

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Re: Tourist bus stop

Jo-2
It's indeed a lot like that train in Tenerife.

Since it's solar powered (supposedly), it's called Zonnetrein.

Not a real train, no rails, more like a bus, but specifically targeted to tourists or group events.

It's true we don't have a way to map this, so for now I would have been inclined to use highway=bus_stop with a specific operator on them.

The original poster seems to be talking about bus services with schedule, for those too I would simply use highway=bus_stop.

For the chartered services, they only have load/unload spots near the tourist attractions and parking areas. For those spots, it would be good to have a dedicated tag.

Polyglot

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 11:14 AM Steve Doerr <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 19/09/2019 00:29, Warin wrote:
> On 19/09/19 07:02, Steve Doerr wrote:
>> On 18/09/2019 18:57, Steve Doerr wrote:
>>>
>>> Sounds like a road-train to me.
>>>
>>
>> Actually I've reallized that the expression I was looking for was
>> 'land train'.
>>
>
> I don't think so ...
>
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_train

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trackless_train is the relevant entry for
what I have in mind.

--
Steve

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Re: Tourist bus stop

Jo-2
Forgot the link:  https://zonnetrein.be/en/

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 1:04 PM Jo <[hidden email]> wrote:
It's indeed a lot like that train in Tenerife.

Since it's solar powered (supposedly), it's called Zonnetrein.

Not a real train, no rails, more like a bus, but specifically targeted to tourists or group events.

It's true we don't have a way to map this, so for now I would have been inclined to use highway=bus_stop with a specific operator on them.

The original poster seems to be talking about bus services with schedule, for those too I would simply use highway=bus_stop.

For the chartered services, they only have load/unload spots near the tourist attractions and parking areas. For those spots, it would be good to have a dedicated tag.

Polyglot

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 11:14 AM Steve Doerr <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 19/09/2019 00:29, Warin wrote:
> On 19/09/19 07:02, Steve Doerr wrote:
>> On 18/09/2019 18:57, Steve Doerr wrote:
>>>
>>> Sounds like a road-train to me.
>>>
>>
>> Actually I've reallized that the expression I was looking for was
>> 'land train'.
>>
>
> I don't think so ...
>
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_train

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trackless_train is the relevant entry for
what I have in mind.

--
Steve

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