Trail register

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Trail register

Kevin Kenny-3
Now that the dicussion of trailheads seems to be converging (whew!),
I'd like to reopen a question that has been mentioned here a couple of
times in the past, but that I don't recall a satisfactory resolution.

In the area where I hike, there are many trail registers. Rather than
simply being books where you can sign to record your visit to a
summit, cave, trail shelter, or similar feature, and possibly write
remarks (we have lost of those, too!) they're actually a mandatory
safety and usage-monitoring measure. There are regulations that state
things like, "No person shall fail to register whenever passing a
trail register established by the department in the Eastern High Peaks
Zone." (The signs say simply, "Please Register", but orders are often
phrased politely as requests - remaining orders nonetheless!) The
register books are in letterboxes at trailheads
https://www.flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/6591461687 or stand-alone at trail
junctions: https://www.cnyhiking.com/EchoCliffs5910.JPG The books
themselves look like this, or at least this is what they look like
when someone forgets to latch the box and a porcupine gets in:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/14041151285

A few of them also have self-issued permits: you sign a form stating
your intentions and agreeing to abide by the regulations, leave one
copy in the letterbox and affix the other to your backpack. You can be
fined if you're caught without a 'trip ticket'.

The fact that many trailheads have the registers is what brought this
question to mind. Note that not all the registers are at trailheads.
For long trails through the interior, you can expect to encounter a
register once or twice a day (if you're a slow hiker like me) and if
someone goes missing, checking the registers is one of the first
things that search parties do.

For what it's worth, we also have a handful of highways that are
remote enough that there's a similar system in place. Motorists must
stop and sign the book on entry and exit.

My Overpass-fu is failing me here. The only similar thing I'm turning
up is summit=register, which is the "record your visit" case, rather
than "you must sign in and out here," and is specific to a mountain
peak. There are a few dozen "tourism=register" nodes in Austria, but I
don't actually understand what they represent - a quick look at
Overpass Turbo shows them as being adjacent to caves and peaks, so I
suspect they're also "record your visit and read the remarks of
others" books.

Has anyone here tagged anything similar to the case I have in mind of,
"you must sign in/sign out/record your passage, and here's where you
do it?"

I anticipate (from experience with previous discussions) that some
mappers who are unfamiliar with such a system will respond with
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_practice#Don.27t_map_your_local_legislation.2C_if_not_bound_to_objects_in_reality
What I want to map is bound to a real object - the register box. It is
visible on the ground. The regulation that you have to use the
register may be an unusual one. Nevertheless, the register is a real,
visible object, and deserves to be mapped along with its meaning.

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Re: Trail register

Jmapb
On 1/4/2019 4:10 PM, Kevin Kenny wrote:

> My Overpass-fu is failing me here. The only similar thing I'm turning
> up is summit=register, which is the "record your visit" case, rather
> than "you must sign in and out here," and is specific to a mountain
> peak. There are a few dozen "tourism=register" nodes in Austria, but I
> don't actually understand what they represent - a quick look at
> Overpass Turbo shows them as being adjacent to caves and peaks, so I
> suspect they're also "record your visit and read the remarks of
> others" books.
>
> Has anyone here tagged anything similar to the case I have in mind of,
> "you must sign in/sign out/record your passage, and here's where you
> do it?"

Personally I'd be inclined to ignore the legal thou-shalt-sign-in
aspects here and simply tag the register because it's a good landmark.
Probably just "man_made=trail_register", keep it simple and unambiguous.

(I have found memories of Huntersfield Mountain! Stayed in the lean-to,
made a stew, met a fat porcupine up there. Haven't been back since the
Long Path was rerouted...)

Jmb



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Re: Trail register

Warin
On 05/01/19 08:22, Jmapb wrote:

> On 1/4/2019 4:10 PM, Kevin Kenny wrote:
>
>> My Overpass-fu is failing me here. The only similar thing I'm turning
>> up is summit=register, which is the "record your visit" case, rather
>> than "you must sign in and out here," and is specific to a mountain
>> peak. There are a few dozen "tourism=register" nodes in Austria, but I
>> don't actually understand what they represent - a quick look at
>> Overpass Turbo shows them as being adjacent to caves and peaks, so I
>> suspect they're also "record your visit and read the remarks of
>> others" books.
>>
>> Has anyone here tagged anything similar to the case I have in mind of,
>> "you must sign in/sign out/record your passage, and here's where you
>> do it?"
>
> Personally I'd be inclined to ignore the legal thou-shalt-sign-in
> aspects here and simply tag the register because it's a good landmark.
> Probably just "man_made=trail_register", keep it simple and unambiguous.

I have one near me.
Some are more of a 'route register' - you state your intended route as
there are several choices, if not here then later. Probably best to
include this in any definition.

The ones in Austria sound more like a 'visitor' or 'accomplishment'
register.
Probably best to separate these as "man_made=visitor_register"?

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Re: Trail register

Kevin Kenny-3
On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 5:21 PM Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I have one near me.
> Some are more of a 'route register' - you state your intended route as
> there are several choices, if not here then later. Probably best to
> include this in any definition.

The ones here, too - the last column, "What are your plans?" in the
example register that I showed in the photo, is totally open-ended.
I've registered for cross-country ("bushwhack") trips many times. The
Adirondack and Catskill parks have no requirement to stay on trail,
and many of the interesting destinations are trail-less.

I see that two posters have suggested "man_made" - but the existing
uses all appear to be in the "tourism" category. Bug or feature?

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Re: Trail register

Warin
On 05/01/19 09:35, Kevin Kenny wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 5:21 PM Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I have one near me.
>> Some are more of a 'route register' - you state your intended route as
>> there are several choices, if not here then later. Probably best to
>> include this in any definition.
> The ones here, too - the last column, "What are your plans?" in the
> example register that I showed in the photo, is totally open-ended.
> I've registered for cross-country ("bushwhack") trips many times. The
> Adirondack and Catskill parks have no requirement to stay on trail,
> and many of the interesting destinations are trail-less.
>
> I see that two posters have suggested "man_made" - but the existing
> uses all appear to be in the "tourism" category. Bug or feature?

:)  They are man made. I don't see them as a normal tourism feature.

The one near me is not a trail head ... probably because there would be too much vandalism if it were on the commonly used areas, so it is at a place where the trail walkers pass by but the normal public don't go.

I do know of others that are in more 'popular rather than hidden away.


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Re: Trail register

Kevin Kenny-3
On Fri, Jan 4, 2019, 20:26 Warin <[hidden email] wrote:

The one near me is not a trail head ... probably because there would be too much vandalism if it were on the commonly used areas, so it is at a place where the trail walkers pass by but the normal public don't go.

I do know of others that are in more 'popular rather than hidden away.

Not too different here. The ones in busy places like campgrounds are typically about 400 m in from the trailhead. The less busy ones are right at the notice board.

One reason I want to map them is to have a ready answer to, 'where's a register?' when starting or ending a bush bash.

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Re: Trail register

Graeme Fitzpatrick
In reply to this post by Jmapb

On Sat, 5 Jan 2019 at 07:23, Jmapb <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 1/4/2019 4:10 PM, Kevin Kenny wrote:

> Has anyone here tagged anything similar to the case I have in mind of,
> "you must sign in/sign out/record your passage, and here's where you
> do it?"

Personally I'd be inclined to ignore the legal thou-shalt-sign-in
aspects here and simply tag the register because it's a good landmark.
Probably just "man_made=trail_register", keep it simple and unambiguous.

We have a similar'ish set-up where you sometimes have to pay to take your car into various National Parks :-(

You can either get an annual / long-term permit, or buy a day-pass on entering the Park, usually located with an info board, where you enter your name & vehicle details, pay your money & get a tag that must be displayed on your vehicle "or else" :-(, so something to show where the spot is would be a good idea.

Maybe man_made / tourism / leisure=registration_point?

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Trail register

Warin
On 05/01/19 14:02, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:

On Sat, 5 Jan 2019 at 07:23, Jmapb <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 1/4/2019 4:10 PM, Kevin Kenny wrote:

> Has anyone here tagged anything similar to the case I have in mind of,
> "you must sign in/sign out/record your passage, and here's where you
> do it?"

Personally I'd be inclined to ignore the legal thou-shalt-sign-in
aspects here and simply tag the register because it's a good landmark.
Probably just "man_made=trail_register", keep it simple and unambiguous.

We have a similar'ish set-up where you sometimes have to pay to take your car into various National Parks :-(

Err no that is a different thing entirely.
A trail register is to indicate your intention to start a walk or when completed that you have finished a walk. You give personal details - who you are, the date, when you expect to finish, possibly even ICE details (In Case of Emergency).

What Graeme is talking about is an entrance fee.
Similar to a car park where you have to pay at some place. man_made=payment_point? And link it using a site relation?



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Re: Trail register

Tobias Wrede
Am 05.01.2019 um 08:24 schrieb Warin:
On 05/01/19 14:02, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:

On Sat, 5 Jan 2019 at 07:23, Jmapb <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 1/4/2019 4:10 PM, Kevin Kenny wrote:

> Has anyone here tagged anything similar to the case I have in mind of,
> "you must sign in/sign out/record your passage, and here's where you
> do it?"

Personally I'd be inclined to ignore the legal thou-shalt-sign-in
aspects here and simply tag the register because it's a good landmark.
Probably just "man_made=trail_register", keep it simple and unambiguous.

We have a similar'ish set-up where you sometimes have to pay to take your car into various National Parks :-(

Err no that is a different thing entirely.
A trail register is to indicate your intention to start a walk or when completed that you have finished a walk. You give personal details - who you are, the date, when you expect to finish, possibly even ICE details (In Case of Emergency).

What Graeme is talking about is an entrance fee.
Similar to a car park where you have to pay at some place. man_made=payment_point? And link it using a site relation?

I agree. While both require you to register the intention and consequences are very different. Friend of mine who were canoeing on the Yukon many years ago told me they were required to register with the local police or ranger stations (don't remember exactly). So the register could also be an office not merely a book in a box. As such I also suggest to separate it from the tourism=register. I have never heard of registers in Kevin's sense in Austria so I am pretty sure they are the "I was here" type. They are pretty common there, often having stamps inside for you later getting a certificate showing up with a fully stamped booklet at the tourism office.

I would make up something new. Graem's suggestion is as good as any.

Tobias


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