Trailhead tagging

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Trailhead tagging

Peter Elderson
I would like to revive the trailhead proposal, https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/trailhead

After discussions in the Dutch user community, a list of all Dutch trailheads was compiled and systematically entered as nodes tagged highway=trailhead, name=<official trailhead name>, tourism=information, information=board or map. Many trailheads were already present in OSM, there we just did some additional tagging. 

In the US, trailheads are all maintained on OSM by a national operator. Japan has lots of trailheads, I don't know how they are maintained. In Europe, no systematical OSM-tagging appears to take place, except for the Dutch base. 

I think it deserves a push. 

Any thoughts on the matter?

--
Vr gr Peter Elderson

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Re: Trailhead tagging

Andy Townsend

Can you give a few examples of what trailheads are to you?  There's a clearly defined American concept, it isn't not really used much in British English.  Also what do you mean by "official" below - is there some kind of VVV list or similar?

Best Regards,

Andy

On 21/12/2018 11:54, Peter Elderson wrote:
I would like to revive the trailhead proposal, https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/trailhead

After discussions in the Dutch user community, a list of all Dutch trailheads was compiled and systematically entered as nodes tagged highway=trailhead, name=<official trailhead name>, tourism=information, information=board or map. Many trailheads were already present in OSM, there we just did some additional tagging. 

In the US, trailheads are all maintained on OSM by a national operator. Japan has lots of trailheads, I don't know how they are maintained. In Europe, no systematical OSM-tagging appears to take place, except for the Dutch base. 

I think it deserves a push. 

Any thoughts on the matter?

--
Vr gr Peter Elderson

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Re: Trailhead tagging

Peter Elderson
Designated starting point for multiple routes into a nature area.  There is a designed marking pole or stele, information boards, seats or benches, free parking space nearby. This one is in a small village: 

Here is another one, with emphasis on Parking. On the left behind the parking is the actual access point to the trails.

The operators are governmental bodies. They publish the lists on recreation websites. Each province has its own list. VVV of course lists/presents them as well.


These points are designed for trail access. 

Op vr 21 dec. 2018 om 14:31 schreef Andy Townsend <[hidden email]>:

Can you give a few examples of what trailheads are to you?  There's a clearly defined American concept, it isn't not really used much in British English.  Also what do you mean by "official" below - is there some kind of VVV list or similar?

Best Regards,

Andy

On 21/12/2018 11:54, Peter Elderson wrote:
I would like to revive the trailhead proposal, https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/trailhead

After discussions in the Dutch user community, a list of all Dutch trailheads was compiled and systematically entered as nodes tagged highway=trailhead, name=<official trailhead name>, tourism=information, information=board or map. Many trailheads were already present in OSM, there we just did some additional tagging. 

In the US, trailheads are all maintained on OSM by a national operator. Japan has lots of trailheads, I don't know how they are maintained. In Europe, no systematical OSM-tagging appears to take place, except for the Dutch base. 

I think it deserves a push. 

Any thoughts on the matter?

--
Vr gr Peter Elderson

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Re: Trailhead tagging

AlaskaDave
I have tagged a few trailheads in Alaska using the tag highway=trailhead on a node followed by a tag for its name. I was under the impression that the tag was well-known and not in some sort of limbo. Other trailhead features if present, e.g., information boards or maps, I generally map separately.

On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 9:36 PM Peter Elderson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Designated starting point for multiple routes into a nature area.  There is a designed marking pole or stele, information boards, seats or benches, free parking space nearby. This one is in a small village: 

Here is another one, with emphasis on Parking. On the left behind the parking is the actual access point to the trails.

The operators are governmental bodies. They publish the lists on recreation websites. Each province has its own list. VVV of course lists/presents them as well.


These points are designed for trail access. 

Op vr 21 dec. 2018 om 14:31 schreef Andy Townsend <[hidden email]>:

Can you give a few examples of what trailheads are to you?  There's a clearly defined American concept, it isn't not really used much in British English.  Also what do you mean by "official" below - is there some kind of VVV list or similar?

Best Regards,

Andy

On 21/12/2018 11:54, Peter Elderson wrote:
I would like to revive the trailhead proposal, https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/trailhead

After discussions in the Dutch user community, a list of all Dutch trailheads was compiled and systematically entered as nodes tagged highway=trailhead, name=<official trailhead name>, tourism=information, information=board or map. Many trailheads were already present in OSM, there we just did some additional tagging. 

In the US, trailheads are all maintained on OSM by a national operator. Japan has lots of trailheads, I don't know how they are maintained. In Europe, no systematical OSM-tagging appears to take place, except for the Dutch base. 

I think it deserves a push. 

Any thoughts on the matter?

--
Vr gr Peter Elderson

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Dave Swarthout
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Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com

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Re: Trailhead tagging

Kevin Kenny-3
In reply to this post by Andy Townsend
On 21/12/2018 11:54, Peter Elderson wrote:

>> I would like to revive the trailhead proposal,
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/trailhead
>>
>> After discussions in the Dutch user community, a list of all Dutch
>> trailheads was compiled and systematically entered as nodes tagged
>> highway=trailhead, name=<official trailhead name>,
>> tourism=information, information=board or map. Many trailheads were
>> already present in OSM, there we just did some additional tagging.
>>
>> In the US, trailheads are all maintained on OSM by a national
>> operator. Japan has lots of trailheads, I don't know how they are
>> maintained. In Europe, no systematical OSM-tagging appears to take
>> place, except for the Dutch base.
On 12/21/18 8:29 AM, Andy Townsend wrote:
>
> Can you give a few examples of what trailheads are to you? There's a
> clearly defined American concept, it isn't not really used much in
> British English.  Also what do you mean by "official" below - is there
> some kind of VVV list or similar?
>
I'm following this thread with some interest. I'm puzzled about the
'national operator' that we supposedly have, entering trailheads in the
US. The ones I've mapped surely have had no such operator! It may be
that someone once did an import from a National Park Service data set
(or something similar), but that would account for only a small set of
our trails. We don't have anything like an all-encompassing national
organization doing them.

I've never used anything like the proposed feature, and I don't miss it
all that much. Most trailheads that I encounter have a notice board, a
register book in some areas, perhaps a parking area, and that's about
it. I map the trail intersecting or terminating at the road, map the
parking area, map the register, map whatever other amenities might exist
(such as https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3763273673) and call it a day.

But perhaps there's some other idea of what a trailhead is. To me, it's
the "point of departure" or "point of arrival" when hiking, riding, or
skiing a trail - generally any place where a trail intersects a road and
it's reasonably safe to get on or get off. (I intentionally exclude
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/41.28251/-74.02879 because
crossing a motorway at grade is NOT a trailhead! It's also barking mad
to do it that way, but this *is* the US.) If it's the trail terminus,
it'll typically be marked with three splashes of paint on a tree, or
three plastic markers, rather than just one. A posh one looks like this
https://www.flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/14279037264 and a more humble one
looks like https://www.flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/14041171575.


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Re: Trailhead tagging

Peter Elderson
Maybe I misinterpreted information I got from another source. I've checked and found info like this: https://www.nps.gov/search/?affiliate=nps&query=trailhead . I found several sites listing named trailheads for specific parks with # parking spaces and other details.

The route starting points in Nederland are multimodal, named, have to fulfill some requirements,  and are recognizable in the field as such by some kind of landmark feature such as an oversize green grass halm, cone of stones, oversize key. They were occasionally mapped as tourism=artwork. We would not consider any waymarked path leading into a nature area to be a trailhead. A verifyable name would be required, at least.

Op vr 21 dec. 2018 om 16:25 schreef Kevin Kenny <[hidden email]>:
On 21/12/2018 11:54, Peter Elderson wrote:
>> I would like to revive the trailhead proposal,
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/trailhead
>>
>> After discussions in the Dutch user community, a list of all Dutch
>> trailheads was compiled and systematically entered as nodes tagged
>> highway=trailhead, name=<official trailhead name>,
>> tourism=information, information=board or map. Many trailheads were
>> already present in OSM, there we just did some additional tagging.
>>
>> In the US, trailheads are all maintained on OSM by a national
>> operator. Japan has lots of trailheads, I don't know how they are
>> maintained. In Europe, no systematical OSM-tagging appears to take
>> place, except for the Dutch base.
On 12/21/18 8:29 AM, Andy Townsend wrote:
>
> Can you give a few examples of what trailheads are to you? There's a
> clearly defined American concept, it isn't not really used much in
> British English.  Also what do you mean by "official" below - is there
> some kind of VVV list or similar?
>
I'm following this thread with some interest. I'm puzzled about the
'national operator' that we supposedly have, entering trailheads in the
US. The ones I've mapped surely have had no such operator! It may be
that someone once did an import from a National Park Service data set
(or something similar), but that would account for only a small set of
our trails. We don't have anything like an all-encompassing national
organization doing them.

I've never used anything like the proposed feature, and I don't miss it
all that much. Most trailheads that I encounter have a notice board, a
register book in some areas, perhaps a parking area, and that's about
it. I map the trail intersecting or terminating at the road, map the
parking area, map the register, map whatever other amenities might exist
(such as https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3763273673) and call it a day.

But perhaps there's some other idea of what a trailhead is. To me, it's
the "point of departure" or "point of arrival" when hiking, riding, or
skiing a trail - generally any place where a trail intersects a road and
it's reasonably safe to get on or get off. (I intentionally exclude
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/41.28251/-74.02879 because
crossing a motorway at grade is NOT a trailhead! It's also barking mad
to do it that way, but this *is* the US.) If it's the trail terminus,
it'll typically be marked with three splashes of paint on a tree, or
three plastic markers, rather than just one. A posh one looks like this
https://www.flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/14279037264 and a more humble one
looks like https://www.flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/14041171575.


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Re: Trailhead tagging

EthnicFood IsGreat
In reply to this post by Peter Elderson

> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 12:54:35 +0100
> From: Peter Elderson <[hidden email]>
> To: Tagging list OSM <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Tagging] Trailhead tagging
>
>
> I would like to revive the trailhead proposal,
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/trailhead
>
> After discussions in the Dutch user community, a list of all Dutch
> trailheads was compiled and systematically entered as nodes tagged
> highway=trailhead, name=<official trailhead name>, tourism=information,
> information=board or map. Many trailheads were already present in OSM,
> there we just did some additional tagging.
>
> In the US, trailheads are all maintained on OSM by a national operator.
> Japan has lots of trailheads, I don't know how they are maintained. In
> Europe, no systematical OSM-tagging appears to take place, except for the
> Dutch base.
>
> I think it deserves a push.
>
> Any thoughts on the matter?
>
> --
> Vr gr Peter Elderson


Go for it.  I've tagged a bunch of trailheads but not in a standard way
like you propose.  Good idea.

Mark



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Re: Trailhead tagging

Andy Townsend
In reply to this post by Peter Elderson
On 21/12/2018 18:12, Peter Elderson wrote:
>
> The route starting points in Nederland are multimodal, named, have to
> fulfill some requirements,  and are recognizable in the field as such
> by some kind of landmark feature such as an oversize green grass halm,
> cone of stones, oversize key. They were occasionally mapped as
> tourism=artwork. We would not consider any waymarked path leading into
> a nature area to be a trailhead. A verifyable name would be required,
> at least.

Taking an example that I'm at least a little bit familiar with, I
suspect that it's a bit of a stretch calling
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/6141097057 a trailhead - if memory
serves it's just an info board describing the area between Castricum and
the sea?  I don't remember seeing anything else there.

Best Regards,

Andy

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Re: Trailhead tagging

Peter Elderson
In reply to this post by EthnicFood IsGreat
Well, in Nederland I'm through, got them all. To initiate a rendering on osm-carto the usage should increase by some 500+ (now on 1400+). I need Germany or Italy!

Op vr 21 dec. 2018 om 19:39 schreef EthnicFood IsGreat <[hidden email]>:

> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 12:54:35 +0100
> From: Peter Elderson <[hidden email]>
> To: Tagging list OSM <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Tagging] Trailhead tagging
>
>
> I would like to revive the trailhead proposal,
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/trailhead
>
> After discussions in the Dutch user community, a list of all Dutch
> trailheads was compiled and systematically entered as nodes tagged
> highway=trailhead, name=<official trailhead name>, tourism=information,
> information=board or map. Many trailheads were already present in OSM,
> there we just did some additional tagging.
>
> In the US, trailheads are all maintained on OSM by a national operator.
> Japan has lots of trailheads, I don't know how they are maintained. In
> Europe, no systematical OSM-tagging appears to take place, except for the
> Dutch base.
>
> I think it deserves a push.
>
> Any thoughts on the matter?
>
> --
> Vr gr Peter Elderson


Go for it.  I've tagged a bunch of trailheads but not in a standard way
like you propose.  Good idea.

Mark



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Re: Trailhead tagging

Peter Elderson
In reply to this post by Andy Townsend
The Province of Noord-Holland has chosen a lax approach - Sometimes there is only a board or a square colum in a certain colour and style, replacing or put next to a previous board, but it should show the name and info. In this case, I have the name and position from one source (operator's website), confirmed by a second, independent source (bicycle platform), but no recent view to confirm it. 

I still have my doubts about that one too. On the one hand it is on a parking lot, near a train station, on the other hand no major biking or hiking trails pass by that exact spot. It's on my list, along with several others could not yet confirm.

If you would check the lot (please do!) i'm sure you would find some more questionable ones. That's OSM.

Op vr 21 dec. 2018 om 19:56 schreef Andy Townsend <[hidden email]>:
On 21/12/2018 18:12, Peter Elderson wrote:
>
> The route starting points in Nederland are multimodal, named, have to
> fulfill some requirements,  and are recognizable in the field as such
> by some kind of landmark feature such as an oversize green grass halm,
> cone of stones, oversize key. They were occasionally mapped as
> tourism=artwork. We would not consider any waymarked path leading into
> a nature area to be a trailhead. A verifyable name would be required,
> at least.

Taking an example that I'm at least a little bit familiar with, I
suspect that it's a bit of a stretch calling
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/6141097057 a trailhead - if memory
serves it's just an info board describing the area between Castricum and
the sea?  I don't remember seeing anything else there.

Best Regards,

Andy

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Re: Trailhead tagging

Michael Booth
In reply to this post by Andy Townsend
I only know of the term trailhead as I've seen it used in the infobox on Wikipedia, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Highland_Way

That route has trailheads at Milngavie (bonus points for pronouncing it correctly): https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/5819237 and Fort William: https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3237567

Also in Scotland the Fife Coastal Path has an arch like this at each end of its route: http://fifecoastandcountrysidetrust.co.uk/userfiles/Fife%20Coastal%20Path%20Kincardine%20archway%20unveiled.jpg (don't know if there's information boards as well)

On 21/12/2018 13:29, Andy Townsend wrote:

Can you give a few examples of what trailheads are to you?  There's a clearly defined American concept, it isn't not really used much in British English.  Also what do you mean by "official" below - is there some kind of VVV list or similar?

Best Regards,

Andy

On 21/12/2018 11:54, Peter Elderson wrote:
I would like to revive the trailhead proposal, https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/trailhead

After discussions in the Dutch user community, a list of all Dutch trailheads was compiled and systematically entered as nodes tagged highway=trailhead, name=<official trailhead name>, tourism=information, information=board or map. Many trailheads were already present in OSM, there we just did some additional tagging. 

In the US, trailheads are all maintained on OSM by a national operator. Japan has lots of trailheads, I don't know how they are maintained. In Europe, no systematical OSM-tagging appears to take place, except for the Dutch base. 

I think it deserves a push. 

Any thoughts on the matter?

--
Vr gr Peter Elderson

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Re: Trailhead tagging

Peter Elderson
Good examples. These are trailheads for a single hiking route, fitting the trailhead proposal nicely. In Nederland, most trails are multiheaded and divided into several separately named sections with separate booklets etc. Where long trails cross, you could also say that the crossing point is the start/end point of 4 trails. Several regional or local routes (roundtrips with branches, mostly) also tend to start or have a hop-on point there, as do routes for bicycles and other recreational transport modes. Often they are also assciated with the node networks for hiking, biking, and riding. So it's more complicated here: with the West Highland Way you could map the trailhead as a starting point in one route relation, that is not an option here because a single hop-on point easily serves 20 or more routes.

Apart from the multiplicity, the function is the same, though. A designated, named and verifyable starting point with variable appropriate facilities like information and parking, to launch recreational route users.



Op vr 21 dec. 2018 om 21:17 schreef Michael Booth <[hidden email]>:
I only know of the term trailhead as I've seen it used in the infobox on Wikipedia, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Highland_Way

That route has trailheads at Milngavie (bonus points for pronouncing it correctly): https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/5819237 and Fort William: https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3237567

Also in Scotland the Fife Coastal Path has an arch like this at each end of its route: http://fifecoastandcountrysidetrust.co.uk/userfiles/Fife%20Coastal%20Path%20Kincardine%20archway%20unveiled.jpg (don't know if there's information boards as well)

On 21/12/2018 13:29, Andy Townsend wrote:

Can you give a few examples of what trailheads are to you?  There's a clearly defined American concept, it isn't not really used much in British English.  Also what do you mean by "official" below - is there some kind of VVV list or similar?

Best Regards,

Andy

On 21/12/2018 11:54, Peter Elderson wrote:
I would like to revive the trailhead proposal, https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/trailhead

After discussions in the Dutch user community, a list of all Dutch trailheads was compiled and systematically entered as nodes tagged highway=trailhead, name=<official trailhead name>, tourism=information, information=board or map. Many trailheads were already present in OSM, there we just did some additional tagging. 

In the US, trailheads are all maintained on OSM by a national operator. Japan has lots of trailheads, I don't know how they are maintained. In Europe, no systematical OSM-tagging appears to take place, except for the Dutch base. 

I think it deserves a push. 

Any thoughts on the matter?

--
Vr gr Peter Elderson

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Re: Trailhead tagging

Kevin Kenny-3
In reply to this post by Peter Elderson
On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 1:13 PM Peter Elderson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Maybe I misinterpreted information I got from another source. I've checked and found info like this: https://www.nps.gov/search/?affiliate=nps&query=trailhead . I found several sites listing named trailheads for specific parks with # parking spaces and other details.

Trails managed by the National Park Service are a minority of trails in the US.

The NPS definition for 'trailhead' isn't too different from mine:
"anywhere that you can get to a trail from a road."  NPS has standard
signage that's placed at (many of) them. It's more organized than most
other outfits that maintain trails. Still, most of their trailheads
consist of a few parking spaces and a sign.

> The route starting points in Nederland are multimodal, named, have to fulfill some requirements,  and are recognizable in the field as such by some kind of landmark feature such as an oversize green grass halm, cone of stones, oversize key. They were occasionally mapped as tourism=artwork. We would not consider any waymarked path leading into a nature area to be a trailhead. A verifyable name would be required, at least.

OK, that's different from here.  Some trailheads have names, but
they're usually just identified by a nearby geographic feature: "the
Averyville Road trailhead," "the Roaring Brook trailhead," "the
trailhead across from the monastery at Meads Mountain."  Most of our
trail termini, even for major regional and national trails, are just
waymarked paths leading into a nature area, perhaps with a more
elaborate sign. Most of the National Park trailheads are little
different from the one I described as 'posh'. Except for a handful of
major trails, we don't have any sort of fancy monumenting of
trailheads, and even some of our most significant trails are simple
footpaths leading into nature areas. The eastern terminus of the
thousand-kilometre Finger Lakes Trail looks like
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger_Lakes_Trail#/media/File:FingerLakesTrail_East_End.jpg.

From your description, I suspect that in the US, we don't have
anything that a Nederlander would recognize as a 'trailhead,'
including the ones in those NPS listings. A notice board, perhaps with
a map, a guidepost, and a footpath heading off somewhere are all that
you can expect at most of ours. (If a trailhead leaves a developed
area of a park, maybe a rubbish bin, or a toilet, but don't count on
those!) Many trailheads are just a spot where a rural road has a wide
enough verge to park a couple of cars, and one or more waymarked
trails leading off somewhere. Quite a few are 4WD-only, like the one
in the picture of a "more humble" trailhead.

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Re: Trailhead tagging

Marc Gemis
In reply to this post by Andy Townsend
I think the parking place for the Precipice walk in Wales
(https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/394294583) which also has a toilet
and a picnic table would be considered a trailhead.
There is also a nice sign
https://xian.smugmug.com/Vacation/Wales-2018/i-hC7kWcK/A to tell you
that you are at the right place to start the walk
(http://dolgellau.wales/walks/precipice-walk.php)

But given that all the facilities and paths are mapped, I wonder which
additional information "trailhead" brings in this case.

m.

On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 2:31 PM Andy Townsend <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Can you give a few examples of what trailheads are to you?  There's a clearly defined American concept, it isn't not really used much in British English.  Also what do you mean by "official" below - is there some kind of VVV list or similar?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
> On 21/12/2018 11:54, Peter Elderson wrote:
>
> I would like to revive the trailhead proposal, https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/trailhead
>
> After discussions in the Dutch user community, a list of all Dutch trailheads was compiled and systematically entered as nodes tagged highway=trailhead, name=<official trailhead name>, tourism=information, information=board or map. Many trailheads were already present in OSM, there we just did some additional tagging.
>
> In the US, trailheads are all maintained on OSM by a national operator. Japan has lots of trailheads, I don't know how they are maintained. In Europe, no systematical OSM-tagging appears to take place, except for the Dutch base.
>
> I think it deserves a push.
>
> Any thoughts on the matter?
>
> --
> Vr gr Peter Elderson
>
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Re: Trailhead tagging

Peter Elderson
Find by name; POI-maps for target groups; list/select suitable starting places for recreational routes; link to other data sources such as wikipedia and operator's website; use in route-by-POI applications (e.g. cycling node network routing).

For a particular trailhead, display and use information about transport modes for nearby trails/routes. Tags: hiking=yes, canoe=yes, bicycle=yes, MTB=yes etc, which allows selections/filters for mapping and listing. 

In Nederland, OSM is the only database that has all the named ('official') trailheads with reasonaby precise locations and details. Links to webpages guide the users to lists of named routes and networks per trailhead.


Op zo 23 dec. 2018 om 11:30 schreef Marc Gemis <[hidden email]>:
I think the parking place for the Precipice walk in Wales
(https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/394294583) which also has a toilet
and a picnic table would be considered a trailhead.
There is also a nice sign
https://xian.smugmug.com/Vacation/Wales-2018/i-hC7kWcK/A to tell you
that you are at the right place to start the walk
(http://dolgellau.wales/walks/precipice-walk.php)

But given that all the facilities and paths are mapped, I wonder which
additional information "trailhead" brings in this case.

m.

On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 2:31 PM Andy Townsend <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Can you give a few examples of what trailheads are to you?  There's a clearly defined American concept, it isn't not really used much in British English.  Also what do you mean by "official" below - is there some kind of VVV list or similar?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
> On 21/12/2018 11:54, Peter Elderson wrote:
>
> I would like to revive the trailhead proposal, https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/trailhead
>
> After discussions in the Dutch user community, a list of all Dutch trailheads was compiled and systematically entered as nodes tagged highway=trailhead, name=<official trailhead name>, tourism=information, information=board or map. Many trailheads were already present in OSM, there we just did some additional tagging.
>
> In the US, trailheads are all maintained on OSM by a national operator. Japan has lots of trailheads, I don't know how they are maintained. In Europe, no systematical OSM-tagging appears to take place, except for the Dutch base.
>
> I think it deserves a push.
>
> Any thoughts on the matter?
>
> --
> Vr gr Peter Elderson
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

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Re: Trailhead tagging

Tobias Wrede
In reply to this post by Peter Elderson
Hi eveyone,

Am 21.12.2018 um 19:55 schrieb Peter Elderson:
> Well, in Nederland I'm through, got them all. To initiate a rendering
> on osm-carto the usage should increase by some 500+ (now on 1400+). I
> need Germany or Italy!

While on vacation I have mapped trail heads in the US pretty much the
way Kenny has described it. I've never come across the trail head tag so
far. In the US trail heads I have encountered were often marked as such
having some signpost giving information on length, difficulty,
accessibility etc. And often there was a road sign saying "xyz trail
head". Often there is a single or very few trails departing there and
each trail only has one or two access points that are called a trail
head. (disclaimer: I am sure there are other situations but these are
the ones I have encountered while on vacation).

In Germany, though, the concept of trail head is not so widely used for
hiking trails. Very often trails are interconnected forming a mesh and
are accessible from various locations. What we rather have are marked
parking lots called "Wanderparkplatz", i. e. "hiking parking lot". There
is even an official traffic sign:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Zeichen_317_-_Wandererparkplatz,_StVO_1992.svg.
The more fancy ones have a map of the surroundings showing all hiking
trails of the area, possibly with length, hiking duration and
difficulty. Often there is a waste bin, sometimes a pickinick table,
very often it's only a few parking spots off the road crossing a forest.
These hiking parking lots are very often not dedicated to a certain
trail, though. Often you find them in places where there are footways
but no marked or named hiking trails at all.

As far as I see we don't currently designate these hiking parking lots
as such. They are just amenity parking connected to some paths/hiking
routes plus possibly having an information board mapped. I wouldn't be
opposed somehow tagging the Wanderparkplatz designation, not sure a
highway-tag would be right with the amenity, though.

Having this said there are of course also some trail heads in Germany
that more fit to what I described for the US or what you might have in
the Netherlands. But they are the minority here I would say.

all the best for the new Year
Tobias



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Re: Trailhead tagging

AlaskaDave
I think tagging trailheads as nodes would work for the great majority of the trailheads I've seen over the years. The first node of a designated footway can be tagged as highway=trailhead, a name or other related tagging added to that, and other amenities such as parking lots, waste bins, toilets and the like can be tagged as nodes, or in some cases, relations. Many of the trailheads I've mapped have no other facilities associated with them, they are merely the beginning of a designated footway or hiking trail. In the definition in the Wiki, one could make it legal for relations to be tagged this way in order to accommodate those trailheads that encompass a range of amenities along with the trailhead itself.

Dave

PS: Happy New Year 2019

On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 9:52 PM Tobias Wrede <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi eveyone,

Am 21.12.2018 um 19:55 schrieb Peter Elderson:
> Well, in Nederland I'm through, got them all. To initiate a rendering
> on osm-carto the usage should increase by some 500+ (now on 1400+). I
> need Germany or Italy!

While on vacation I have mapped trail heads in the US pretty much the
way Kenny has described it. I've never come across the trail head tag so
far. In the US trail heads I have encountered were often marked as such
having some signpost giving information on length, difficulty,
accessibility etc. And often there was a road sign saying "xyz trail
head". Often there is a single or very few trails departing there and
each trail only has one or two access points that are called a trail
head. (disclaimer: I am sure there are other situations but these are
the ones I have encountered while on vacation).

In Germany, though, the concept of trail head is not so widely used for
hiking trails. Very often trails are interconnected forming a mesh and
are accessible from various locations. What we rather have are marked
parking lots called "Wanderparkplatz", i. e. "hiking parking lot". There
is even an official traffic sign:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Zeichen_317_-_Wandererparkplatz,_StVO_1992.svg.
The more fancy ones have a map of the surroundings showing all hiking
trails of the area, possibly with length, hiking duration and
difficulty. Often there is a waste bin, sometimes a pickinick table,
very often it's only a few parking spots off the road crossing a forest.
These hiking parking lots are very often not dedicated to a certain
trail, though. Often you find them in places where there are footways
but no marked or named hiking trails at all.

As far as I see we don't currently designate these hiking parking lots
as such. They are just amenity parking connected to some paths/hiking
routes plus possibly having an information board mapped. I wouldn't be
opposed somehow tagging the Wanderparkplatz designation, not sure a
highway-tag would be right with the amenity, though.

Having this said there are of course also some trail heads in Germany
that more fit to what I described for the US or what you might have in
the Netherlands. But they are the minority here I would say.

all the best for the new Year
Tobias



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Chiang Mai, Thailand
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Re: Trailhead tagging

Peter Elderson
At this point, I settle for just requiring that it's a named location visibly designated as access point for one ore more recreational routes. 

So just a node tagged highway=trailhead and name=<Name of the trailhead>. 

Which node? Well, if it's just the start with a name on a guidepost, use the guidepost node. If it's an information board with the name, use that. If there is a flagpole or a stele or say a statue of the pioneer who walked it first, use that. If there is none of that, use the location which presents itself naturally as a starrting point when you get there. If there is no such location, then it's not a trailhead!

Anything else: optional, map and tag as seems appropriate.



Op ma 31 dec. 2018 om 16:23 schreef Dave Swarthout <[hidden email]>:
I think tagging trailheads as nodes would work for the great majority of the trailheads I've seen over the years. The first node of a designated footway can be tagged as highway=trailhead, a name or other related tagging added to that, and other amenities such as parking lots, waste bins, toilets and the like can be tagged as nodes, or in some cases, relations. Many of the trailheads I've mapped have no other facilities associated with them, they are merely the beginning of a designated footway or hiking trail. In the definition in the Wiki, one could make it legal for relations to be tagged this way in order to accommodate those trailheads that encompass a range of amenities along with the trailhead itself.

Dave

PS: Happy New Year 2019

On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 9:52 PM Tobias Wrede <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi eveyone,

Am 21.12.2018 um 19:55 schrieb Peter Elderson:
> Well, in Nederland I'm through, got them all. To initiate a rendering
> on osm-carto the usage should increase by some 500+ (now on 1400+). I
> need Germany or Italy!

While on vacation I have mapped trail heads in the US pretty much the
way Kenny has described it. I've never come across the trail head tag so
far. In the US trail heads I have encountered were often marked as such
having some signpost giving information on length, difficulty,
accessibility etc. And often there was a road sign saying "xyz trail
head". Often there is a single or very few trails departing there and
each trail only has one or two access points that are called a trail
head. (disclaimer: I am sure there are other situations but these are
the ones I have encountered while on vacation).

In Germany, though, the concept of trail head is not so widely used for
hiking trails. Very often trails are interconnected forming a mesh and
are accessible from various locations. What we rather have are marked
parking lots called "Wanderparkplatz", i. e. "hiking parking lot". There
is even an official traffic sign:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Zeichen_317_-_Wandererparkplatz,_StVO_1992.svg.
The more fancy ones have a map of the surroundings showing all hiking
trails of the area, possibly with length, hiking duration and
difficulty. Often there is a waste bin, sometimes a pickinick table,
very often it's only a few parking spots off the road crossing a forest.
These hiking parking lots are very often not dedicated to a certain
trail, though. Often you find them in places where there are footways
but no marked or named hiking trails at all.

As far as I see we don't currently designate these hiking parking lots
as such. They are just amenity parking connected to some paths/hiking
routes plus possibly having an information board mapped. I wouldn't be
opposed somehow tagging the Wanderparkplatz designation, not sure a
highway-tag would be right with the amenity, though.

Having this said there are of course also some trail heads in Germany
that more fit to what I described for the US or what you might have in
the Netherlands. But they are the minority here I would say.

all the best for the new Year
Tobias



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Re: Trailhead tagging

Tobias Wrede
Wouldn't it make sense to add the trail head (node) to a route relation
with role=trail_head?

Am 01.01.2019 um 12:54 schrieb Peter Elderson:

> At this point, I settle for just requiring that it's a named location
> visibly designated as access point for one ore more recreational routes.
>
> So just a node tagged highway=trailhead and name=<Name of the trailhead>.
>
> Which node? Well, if it's just the start with a name on a guidepost,
> use the guidepost node. If it's an information board with the name,
> use that. If there is a flagpole or a stele or say a statue of the
> pioneer who walked it first, use that. If there is none of that, use
> the location which presents itself naturally as a starrting point when
> you get there. If there is no such location, then it's not a trailhead!
>
> Anything else: optional, map and tag as seems appropriate.
>


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Re: Trailhead tagging

Peter Elderson
Sometimes it would, sometimes it would not. If the node actually represents the start of the trail, it is already in the relation because it is part of the way that belongs to the route. In the situation that a trailhead node represents a named cluster of helpful facilities/amenities in the vicinity of several trails or networks, you wouldn't want to add it to all the relations, because a. it's not actually part of the routes and b. maintenance of all the routes would be quite error-prone and not really intuitive.

A site relation has been suggested for the more complex trailheads. You would include the node there, the parking(s), the information booth or guide stands, maybe PT-stops, possibly the route relations you can access from the site...

Mapping a trailhead node as I suggested does not stand in the way of more complex options. My idea: begin with the simplest common element which supports all the other options. 

Op wo 2 jan. 2019 om 12:04 schreef Tobias Wrede <[hidden email]>:
Wouldn't it make sense to add the trail head (node) to a route relation
with role=trail_head?

Am 01.01.2019 um 12:54 schrieb Peter Elderson:
> At this point, I settle for just requiring that it's a named location
> visibly designated as access point for one ore more recreational routes.
>
> So just a node tagged highway=trailhead and name=<Name of the trailhead>.
>
> Which node? Well, if it's just the start with a name on a guidepost,
> use the guidepost node. If it's an information board with the name,
> use that. If there is a flagpole or a stele or say a statue of the
> pioneer who walked it first, use that. If there is none of that, use
> the location which presents itself naturally as a starrting point when
> you get there. If there is no such location, then it's not a trailhead!
>
> Anything else: optional, map and tag as seems appropriate.
>


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