Trig Point references

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Trig Point references

Brian Prangle-2
I've noticed that some trigpoints are tagged with  a reference prefixed TPUK. This is a reference to the numbers assigned by the website http://trigpointing.uk/ which has the following text as a footer: "The TrigpointingUK database is owned and maintained by Ian Harris (Teasel)"
That doesn't sound very open to me - does anyone know what permission we have to use this data? The OSM wiki says we can use it but who has the text of  the explicit permission (or licence) and shouldn't we have  a system of being able to reference(hyperlink) permissions such as these from the wiki (just to be safe)?

Apologies if there is a talk-gb thread buried in the archives relating to this

Regards

Brian

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Re: Trig Point references

Philip Barnes
On Friday, 12 July 2019, Brian Prangle wrote:

> I've noticed that some trigpoints are tagged with  a reference prefixed
> TPUK. This is a reference to the numbers assigned by the website
> http://trigpointing.uk/ which has the following text as a footer: "The
> TrigpointingUK database is owned and maintained by Ian Harris (Teasel)"
> That doesn't sound very open to me - does anyone know what permission we
> have to use this data? The OSM wiki says we *can* use it but who has the
> text of  the explicit permission (or licence) and shouldn't we have  a
> system of being able to reference(hyperlink) permissions such as these from
> the wiki (just to be safe)?
>
> Apologies if there is a talk-gb thread buried in the archives relating to
> this
>
Hi Brian
Each pillar has a plate with an OS reassigned reference, which is easily  on the ground verifiable. I believe that we should be using that rather than those randomly assigned by a 3rd party site of unknown origin.

For example Titterstone Clee is 2943, which I can't remember if I added it.

Phil (trigpoint)

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Re: Trig Point references

Philip Barnes
On Friday, 12 July 2019, Philip Barnes wrote:

> On Friday, 12 July 2019, Brian Prangle wrote:
> > I've noticed that some trigpoints are tagged with  a reference prefixed
> > TPUK. This is a reference to the numbers assigned by the website
> > http://trigpointing.uk/ which has the following text as a footer: "The
> > TrigpointingUK database is owned and maintained by Ian Harris (Teasel)"
> > That doesn't sound very open to me - does anyone know what permission we
> > have to use this data? The OSM wiki says we *can* use it but who has the
> > text of  the explicit permission (or licence) and shouldn't we have  a
> > system of being able to reference(hyperlink) permissions such as these from
> > the wiki (just to be safe)?
> >
> > Apologies if there is a talk-gb thread buried in the archives relating to
> > this
> >
> Hi Brian
> Each pillar has a plate with an OS reassigned reference, which is easily  on the ground verifiable. I believe that we should be using that rather than those randomly assigned by a 3rd party site of unknown origin.
>
> For example Titterstone Clee is 2943, which I can't remember if I added it.
>
That should have said OS assigned.
 
Phil (trigpoint)

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Re: Trig Point references

Simon Ritchie
In reply to this post by Brian Prangle-2
> I've noticed that some trigpoints are tagged with  a reference prefixed TPUK. This is a reference to the numbers assigned by the website http://trigpointing.uk/ which has the following text as a footer: "The TrigpointingUK database is owned and maintained by Ian Harris (Teasel)"
That doesn't sound very open to me - does anyone know what permission we have to use this data?

Hmm.  Good point.  Most of the data in Ian's database is contributed by the trigpointers - reports of visits to the trigs.  Most of the data about the actual trigs on the site (position etc) comes from the OS.  See this page https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/gps/legacy-control-information/triangulation-stations, which says "This data, which is no longer maintained, is available for use under Open Government Licence Terms." 

That page provides a downloadable CSV  giving the names used by the OS. position, type, status etc.  However, the names starting TP seem to be created by Ian, so I think he owns them, just as Royal Mail owns the postcode data.

One solution would be to quote the OS names instead.  Another would be to use the contact page on Ian's site and ask him for permission to use his names.  I'm guessing that he would be happy.

Regards

Simon

 

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Re: Trig Point references

Gareth L
Adjacent to this query, there’s a Facebook group where people post photos of postboxes https://m.facebook.com/postboxcollection/
It would be very useful to be able to fill in the blanks, like royal_cypher and potentially collection times. Many postboxes have just the reference number on Osm. Who owns the data here? Each submitter, the group admin, Facebook?

Apologies for derail, but there is quite a parallel.

Gareth

On 12 Jul 2019, at 21:59, Simon Ritchie <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've noticed that some trigpoints are tagged with  a reference prefixed TPUK. This is a reference to the numbers assigned by the website http://trigpointing.uk/ which has the following text as a footer: "The TrigpointingUK database is owned and maintained by Ian Harris (Teasel)"
That doesn't sound very open to me - does anyone know what permission we have to use this data?

Hmm.  Good point.  Most of the data in Ian's database is contributed by the trigpointers - reports of visits to the trigs.  Most of the data about the actual trigs on the site (position etc) comes from the OS.  See this page https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/gps/legacy-control-information/triangulation-stations, which says "This data, which is no longer maintained, is available for use under Open Government Licence Terms." 

That page provides a downloadable CSV  giving the names used by the OS. position, type, status etc.  However, the names starting TP seem to be created by Ian, so I think he owns them, just as Royal Mail owns the postcode data.

One solution would be to quote the OS names instead.  Another would be to use the contact page on Ian's site and ask him for permission to use his names.  I'm guessing that he would be happy.

Regards

Simon

 
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Re: Trig Point references

Great Britain mailing list
In reply to this post by Philip Barnes
On 12/07/2019 21:19, Philip Barnes wrote:
> Hi Brian
> Each pillar has a plate with an OS reassigned reference, which is easily  on the ground verifiable. I believe that we should be using that rather than those randomly assigned by a 3rd party site of unknown origin.

Hmm... Good job no one did 'randomly assigned' on PROWs <roll eyes emoji>

DaveF

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Re: Trig Point references

Philip Barnes


--- Original message ---

> On Friday, 12 July 2019, Dave F via Talk-GB wrote:
> > On 12/07/2019 21:19, Philip Barnes wrote:
> > > Hi Brian
> > > Each pillar has a plate with an OS reassigned reference, which is easily  on the ground verifiable. I believe that we should be using that rather than those randomly assigned by a 3rd party site of unknown origin.
> >
> > Hmm... Good job no one did 'randomly assigned' on PROWs <roll eyes emoji>
> >
> PROW references are assigned by the local highway authority, not randomly assigned.
>
> Trig points have an easily verifiable reference assigned by OS at the time of construction, it makes sense to use that.
>
> Phil (trigpoint)
>
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Re: Trig Point references

Gregrs
In reply to this post by Simon Ritchie
Hi all,

On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 09:58:28PM +0100, Simon Ritchie wrote:

>Hmm.  Good point.  Most of the data in Ian's database is contributed by
>the trigpointers - reports of visits to the trigs.  Most of the data
>about the actual trigs on the site (position etc) comes from the OS.  
>See this page
>https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/gps/legacy-control-information/triangulation-stations,
>which says "This data, which is no longer maintained, is available for
>use under Open Government Licence Terms."
>
>That page provides a downloadable CSV  giving the names used by the OS.
>position, type, status etc.  However, the names starting TP seem to be
>created by Ian, so I think he owns them, just as Royal Mail owns the
>postcode data.
You may also be interested in this page on my user area of the OSM wiki:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Gregrs/Ordnance_Survey_triangulation_stations

Thanks,
Greg

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Re: Trig Point references

Simon Ritchie
In reply to this post by Brian Prangle-2
> I've noticed that some trigpoints are tagged with  a reference prefixed TPUK

I should also have said in my first reply  that the page for each trig on the trigpointing.uk website gives the source of the OS data that it uses and shows the OS names.  For example http://trigpointing.uk/trig/4791 describes what the site calls TP4791.  According to that page the position data is derived from https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/trigonomy/files/OS%20data/.  The original OS name was TQ47/T218 and the new name is TQ47T218.

So if a trig is referenced on the map using its trigpointing.uk name, you can look up the OS name via that website.  Since all the pages have the same form, with a bit of scripting trickery it should be possible to scrape the conversions from the same website and fix them all in a batch.

The OS uses accurate GPS these days so they don't maintain their trig point list.  The main purpose of the trigpointing.uk site is to maintain up to date reports on the state of the trigts - some are destroyed and a few are still in one piece but not in their original position, due to subsidence.  I think that these data do belong to the site owner, so his permission would be needed to annotate the map with them.  As I said in my first post, he may well be willing.

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