USPS Post Boxes

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
11 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

USPS Post Boxes

Leif Rasmussen
Hi everyone,
A couple of days ago, I noticed that different post boxes in the United States had different ways of tagging that they were part of the USPS system.  Roughly 60% had "operator"="USPS", 40% "operator"="United States Postal Service", and about 15 similar to "operator"="United States Post Services" or "United States Post Office".  I wanted to make them all the same, so I asked on the OSMUS Slack group about the tags, and most people supported "USPS".  I then proceeded to upload a changeset manually converting 1500 "United States Postal Service" or similar to "USPS".  I should have waited longer before uploading.
All post boxes in the USPS system now have "operator"="USPS".
After uploading, people expressed concern about the choice of "USPS" over "United States Postal Service".  The wiki states that abbreviations should be expanded, "USPS" could be confused with other agencies, and this counted as an automated edit, which should have had better planning with the OSM community.
I would now like to propose converting all post boxes with the tag "operator"="USPS" to "operator"="United States Postal Service".  I would also like to add the tag "operator:wikidata"="Q668687" to the post boxes that currently have "operator"="USPS".  Please reply with any feedback or concerns you have with this proposal.  
Thank you,
Leif Rasmussen
OSM username: LeifRasmussen

_______________________________________________
Talk-us mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: USPS Post Boxes

Paul Johnson-3
I fully support the expanded version, not the abbreviated version.

On Tue, Aug 28, 2018, 14:32 Leif Rasmussen <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi everyone,
A couple of days ago, I noticed that different post boxes in the United States had different ways of tagging that they were part of the USPS system.  Roughly 60% had "operator"="USPS", 40% "operator"="United States Postal Service", and about 15 similar to "operator"="United States Post Services" or "United States Post Office".  I wanted to make them all the same, so I asked on the OSMUS Slack group about the tags, and most people supported "USPS".  I then proceeded to upload a changeset manually converting 1500 "United States Postal Service" or similar to "USPS".  I should have waited longer before uploading.
All post boxes in the USPS system now have "operator"="USPS".
After uploading, people expressed concern about the choice of "USPS" over "United States Postal Service".  The wiki states that abbreviations should be expanded, "USPS" could be confused with other agencies, and this counted as an automated edit, which should have had better planning with the OSM community.
I would now like to propose converting all post boxes with the tag "operator"="USPS" to "operator"="United States Postal Service".  I would also like to add the tag "operator:wikidata"="Q668687" to the post boxes that currently have "operator"="USPS".  Please reply with any feedback or concerns you have with this proposal.  
Thank you,
Leif Rasmussen
OSM username: LeifRasmussen
_______________________________________________
Talk-us mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

_______________________________________________
Talk-us mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: USPS Post Boxes

Jmapb
In reply to this post by Leif Rasmussen
On 8/28/2018 3:31 PM, Leif Rasmussen wrote:
Hi everyone,
A couple of days ago, I noticed that different post boxes in the United States had different ways of tagging that they were part of the USPS system.  Roughly 60% had "operator"="USPS", 40% "operator"="United States Postal Service", and about 15 similar to "operator"="United States Post Services" or "United States Post Office".  I wanted to make them all the same, so I asked on the OSMUS Slack group about the tags, and most people supported "USPS".  I then proceeded to upload a changeset manually converting 1500 "United States Postal Service" or similar to "USPS".  I should have waited longer before uploading.
All post boxes in the USPS system now have "operator"="USPS".
After uploading, people expressed concern about the choice of "USPS" over "United States Postal Service".  The wiki states that abbreviations should be expanded, "USPS" could be confused with other agencies, and this counted as an automated edit, which should have had better planning with the OSM community.
I would now like to propose converting all post boxes with the tag "operator"="USPS" to "operator"="United States Postal Service".  I would also like to add the tag "operator:wikidata"="Q668687" to the post boxes that currently have "operator"="USPS".  Please reply with any feedback or concerns you have with this proposal. 

Thanks for looping us in, Leif. Haven't made it to the slack group yet, but when I noticed that change I thought to myself "thank the Lord, it's over!" Every time I've tagged a post box I've managed to convince myself that I did it wrong the previous time. So I rotated between "USPS", "usps" and "United States Postal Service" and figured I'd get around to fixing them when my brain settled down. Seeing someone else take the initiative was a relief, despite the understandable grumbling about automated edits.

Now that it's done, I'm in favor of making an exception to the no-abbreviations rule for a fixed set of couriers, so sticking with USPS. It's easy to tag and read, and I don't think it's truly ambiguous... if the United States Power Squadrons start a courier service, *they* should be tagged with the fully expanded name.

Another reason is that there are plenty of private company post boxes, and I'd like the tagging style to be consistent as possible, with the commonly-used compact versions of their names. I feel operator=UPS, operator=FedEx, operator=DHL will be easier to write, maintain, and read than operator=United Parcel Service, operator=Federal Express, operator=.. well, I still can't figure out what DHL actually stands for.

Also -- not an issue for postboxes per se, but I've found occasion to tag some some shops with the shipping companies they offer, and the idea of a semicolon-seperated list of fully expanded shipping company names makes me weary.

(No problem with adding the operator:wikidata tag.)

Thanks, Jason




_______________________________________________
Talk-us mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: USPS Post Boxes

Jack Burke-2
Because they are labeled "United States Postal Service" with big stickers, that's how I've been tagging them.

-jack

--
Typos courtesy of fancy auto spell technology

On August 28, 2018 4:02:40 PM EDT, Jmapb <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 8/28/2018 3:31 PM, Leif Rasmussen wrote:
Hi everyone,
A couple of days ago, I noticed that different post boxes in the United States had different ways of tagging that they were part of the USPS system.  Roughly 60% had "operator"="USPS", 40% "operator"="United States Postal Service", and about 15 similar to "operator"="United States Post Services" or "United States Post Office".  I wanted to make them all the same, so I asked on the OSMUS Slack group about the tags, and most people supported "USPS".  I then proceeded to upload a changeset manually converting 1500 "United States Postal Service" or similar to "USPS".  I should have waited longer before uploading.
All post boxes in the USPS system now have "operator"="USPS".
After uploading, people expressed concern about the choice of "USPS" over "United States Postal Service".  The wiki states that abbreviations should be expanded, "USPS" could be confused with other agencies, and this counted as an automated edit, which should have had better planning with the OSM community.
I would now like to propose converting all post boxes with the tag "operator"="USPS" to "operator"="United States Postal Service".  I would also like to add the tag "operator:wikidata"="Q668687" to the post boxes that currently have "operator"="USPS".  Please reply with any feedback or concerns you have with this proposal. 

Thanks for looping us in, Leif. Haven't made it to the slack group yet, but when I noticed that change I thought to myself "thank the Lord, it's over!" Every time I've tagged a post box I've managed to convince myself that I did it wrong the previous time. So I rotated between "USPS", "usps" and "United States Postal Service" and figured I'd get around to fixing them when my brain settled down. Seeing someone else take the initiative was a relief, despite the understandable grumbling about automated edits.

Now that it's done, I'm in favor of making an exception to the no-abbreviations rule for a fixed set of couriers, so sticking with USPS. It's easy to tag and read, and I don't think it's truly ambiguous... if the United States Power Squadrons start a courier service, *they* should be tagged with the fully expanded name.

Another reason is that there are plenty of private company post boxes, and I'd like the tagging style to be consistent as possible, with the commonly-used compact versions of their names. I feel operator=UPS, operator=FedEx, operator=DHL will be easier to write, maintain, and read than operator=United Parcel Service, operator=Federal Express, operator=.. well, I still can't figure out what DHL actually stands for.

Also -- not an issue for postboxes per se, but I've found occasion to tag some some shops with the shipping companies they offer, and the idea of a semicolon-seperated list of fully expanded shipping company names makes me weary.

(No problem with adding the operator:wikidata tag.)

Thanks, Jason




_______________________________________________
Talk-us mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: USPS Post Boxes

Peter Dobratz
Leif,

What's the next step in your process on this?

I prefer the "operator"="United States Postal Service".  Not only does it match the sticker on the side of many blue mail boxes ( https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Post_office_drivethrough_lane.jpg ), it follows the general OSM guideline of not putting abbreviations in names of things ( https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Abbreviation_.28don.27t_do_it.29 ).  The https://www.usps.com/ website seems to use both USPS and United States Postal Service.

Thanks,
Peter

On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 5:02 PM Jack Burke <[hidden email]> wrote:
Because they are labeled "United States Postal Service" with big stickers, that's how I've been tagging them.

-jack

--
Typos courtesy of fancy auto spell technology

On August 28, 2018 4:02:40 PM EDT, Jmapb <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 8/28/2018 3:31 PM, Leif Rasmussen wrote:
Hi everyone,
A couple of days ago, I noticed that different post boxes in the United States had different ways of tagging that they were part of the USPS system.  Roughly 60% had "operator"="USPS", 40% "operator"="United States Postal Service", and about 15 similar to "operator"="United States Post Services" or "United States Post Office".  I wanted to make them all the same, so I asked on the OSMUS Slack group about the tags, and most people supported "USPS".  I then proceeded to upload a changeset manually converting 1500 "United States Postal Service" or similar to "USPS".  I should have waited longer before uploading.
All post boxes in the USPS system now have "operator"="USPS".
After uploading, people expressed concern about the choice of "USPS" over "United States Postal Service".  The wiki states that abbreviations should be expanded, "USPS" could be confused with other agencies, and this counted as an automated edit, which should have had better planning with the OSM community.
I would now like to propose converting all post boxes with the tag "operator"="USPS" to "operator"="United States Postal Service".  I would also like to add the tag "operator:wikidata"="Q668687" to the post boxes that currently have "operator"="USPS".  Please reply with any feedback or concerns you have with this proposal. 

Thanks for looping us in, Leif. Haven't made it to the slack group yet, but when I noticed that change I thought to myself "thank the Lord, it's over!" Every time I've tagged a post box I've managed to convince myself that I did it wrong the previous time. So I rotated between "USPS", "usps" and "United States Postal Service" and figured I'd get around to fixing them when my brain settled down. Seeing someone else take the initiative was a relief, despite the understandable grumbling about automated edits.

Now that it's done, I'm in favor of making an exception to the no-abbreviations rule for a fixed set of couriers, so sticking with USPS. It's easy to tag and read, and I don't think it's truly ambiguous... if the United States Power Squadrons start a courier service, *they* should be tagged with the fully expanded name.

Another reason is that there are plenty of private company post boxes, and I'd like the tagging style to be consistent as possible, with the commonly-used compact versions of their names. I feel operator=UPS, operator=FedEx, operator=DHL will be easier to write, maintain, and read than operator=United Parcel Service, operator=Federal Express, operator=.. well, I still can't figure out what DHL actually stands for.

Also -- not an issue for postboxes per se, but I've found occasion to tag some some shops with the shipping companies they offer, and the idea of a semicolon-seperated list of fully expanded shipping company names makes me weary.

(No problem with adding the operator:wikidata tag.)

Thanks, Jason



_______________________________________________
Talk-us mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

_______________________________________________
Talk-us mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: USPS Post Boxes

Leif Rasmussen
In reply to this post by Leif Rasmussen
Hi Peter,
I would like to do the operator value conversion this weekend, but would also like to make sure to listen to all the reasons for not expanding USPS.  These include having the tagging style as consistent as possible, the long version being harder to type, a list of semicolon separated expanded operators being too long, and more.  These are valid concerns, which should be addressed before anything else happens.  
First, for keeping the tagging style as consistent as possible, each post box will be given the tag "operator:wikidata"="Q668687".  This way, even if the operator=* tags are changed later on, all post boxes will still be consistent and easy to querry.
Second, for making sure that the operator tag is not too hard to type, I think that adding a taginfo based autocomplete to the operator=* field in iD could solve this.  I would have to open an issue about that on Github, though.
Third, another fear was that a list of expanded operators separated by semicolons would be hard to work with.  I have no easy solution for this.  Perhaps, iD could have something to organize the operator tags into blocks, rather than just text like other fields.
I would like to convert the tags this weekend, so please let me know if you have any suggestions for how to make the conversion less problematic.
Thank you, 
Leif Rasmussen

_______________________________________________
Talk-us mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: USPS Post Boxes

Bryan Housel-2
Can we please leave it as USPS?  Other shippers UPS, FedEx, and DHL are also abbreviated.
The “expand abbreviations” rule is really for street addresses, not everything in OSM.

Taginfo can show you what values are currently stored in the `operator` tag:

If we were to switch the `operator` field in iD over to a taginfo-based autocomplete, 2 things would happen:
1. It would show exactly the results in the url above, which contains all the operators (not just the postal ones).  It would not be a good list to pick from.
2. The taginfo service would crash.  We’ve been asked by Jochen not to do lookups against tags with a lot of distinct values (like “name” and “operator”) because queries like this are resource intensive.

Thanks, Bryan




On Sep 6, 2018, at 6:44 PM, Leif Rasmussen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Peter,
I would like to do the operator value conversion this weekend, but would also like to make sure to listen to all the reasons for not expanding USPS.  These include having the tagging style as consistent as possible, the long version being harder to type, a list of semicolon separated expanded operators being too long, and more.  These are valid concerns, which should be addressed before anything else happens.  
First, for keeping the tagging style as consistent as possible, each post box will be given the tag "operator:wikidata"="Q668687".  This way, even if the operator=* tags are changed later on, all post boxes will still be consistent and easy to querry.
Second, for making sure that the operator tag is not too hard to type, I think that adding a taginfo based autocomplete to the operator=* field in iD could solve this.  I would have to open an issue about that on Github, though.
Third, another fear was that a list of expanded operators separated by semicolons would be hard to work with.  I have no easy solution for this.  Perhaps, iD could have something to organize the operator tags into blocks, rather than just text like other fields.
I would like to convert the tags this weekend, so please let me know if you have any suggestions for how to make the conversion less problematic.
Thank you, 
Leif Rasmussen
_______________________________________________
Talk-us mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


_______________________________________________
Talk-us mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: USPS Post Boxes

Jmapb
In reply to this post by Leif Rasmussen
On 9/6/2018 6:44 PM, Leif Rasmussen wrote:

> First, for keeping the tagging style as consistent as possible, each
> post box will be given the tag "operator:wikidata"="Q668687".  This
> way, even if the operator=* tags are changed later on, all post boxes
> will still be consistent and easy to querry.

Earlier I wrote in favor of keeping operator=USPS. Just to add, I don't
see any problem with adding this operator:wikidata tag, but there's no
reason to expect anyone else will be adding it to newly mapped mailboxes
going forward, right? I mean, "United States Postal Service" may be a
chore to type, but nothing compared to typing "operator:wikidata=Q668687".

J

_______________________________________________
Talk-us mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: USPS Post Boxes

Paul Johnson-3
On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 7:12 PM Jmapb <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 9/6/2018 6:44 PM, Leif Rasmussen wrote:

> First, for keeping the tagging style as consistent as possible, each
> post box will be given the tag "operator:wikidata"="Q668687".  This
> way, even if the operator=* tags are changed later on, all post boxes
> will still be consistent and easy to querry.

Earlier I wrote in favor of keeping operator=USPS. Just to add, I don't
see any problem with adding this operator:wikidata tag, but there's no
reason to expect anyone else will be adding it to newly mapped mailboxes
going forward, right? I mean, "United States Postal Service" may be a
chore to type, but nothing compared to typing "operator:wikidata=Q668687".

 Granted, there could be a bot that scans for and automatically updates this.  But there could just as easily be a bot that correctly expands things as well, 

_______________________________________________
Talk-us mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: USPS Post Boxes

Peter Dobratz
In reply to this post by Bryan Housel-2
It would be good to standardize on operator tags for the 4 major carriers as you mentioned.  The logos for DHL, FedEx, and UPS have those exact letters in them, so if people map what they see, then they will end up with those exact values.  However, as mentioned, the USPS logo actually contains the text United States Postal Service.

I could be convinced to switch my tagging from United States Postal Service to USPS.  Are there any arguments to support the short form beyond it being easier to type?



Both "USPS" and "United States Postal Service" are used within the text of this page:
"The History Behind the USPS Logo"

Looking at USPS trademarks
and the USPS FAQ
you can see that "U.S. Postal Service" is another possible variation on the same name.

Looking through Taginfo, OSM tag usage reflects the same inconsistencies as in the USPS FAQ.  The following similar key/vales exist:
operator=USPS
operator=United States Postal Service
operator=US Postal Service
operator=U.S. Postal Service

OSM Tag History can be used to graph total usage of these tags over time:

taghistory_USPS.png

All 4 lines on the graph are increasing over time with USPS and United States Postal Service being an order of magnitude higher than the variations with only the US abbreviated.  The graph doesn't yet reflect Leif's efforts to standardize tagging (spike in USPS and dip in United States Postal Service).

Once we come to a consensus, we should document on the OSM wiki pages for amenity=post_box and amenity=post_office, and also flow to editor presets.

Peter

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 8:18 PM Bryan Housel <[hidden email]> wrote:
Can we please leave it as USPS?  Other shippers UPS, FedEx, and DHL are also abbreviated.
The “expand abbreviations” rule is really for street addresses, not everything in OSM.

Taginfo can show you what values are currently stored in the `operator` tag:

If we were to switch the `operator` field in iD over to a taginfo-based autocomplete, 2 things would happen:
1. It would show exactly the results in the url above, which contains all the operators (not just the postal ones).  It would not be a good list to pick from.
2. The taginfo service would crash.  We’ve been asked by Jochen not to do lookups against tags with a lot of distinct values (like “name” and “operator”) because queries like this are resource intensive.

Thanks, Bryan




On Sep 6, 2018, at 6:44 PM, Leif Rasmussen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Peter,
I would like to do the operator value conversion this weekend, but would also like to make sure to listen to all the reasons for not expanding USPS.  These include having the tagging style as consistent as possible, the long version being harder to type, a list of semicolon separated expanded operators being too long, and more.  These are valid concerns, which should be addressed before anything else happens.  
First, for keeping the tagging style as consistent as possible, each post box will be given the tag "operator:wikidata"="Q668687".  This way, even if the operator=* tags are changed later on, all post boxes will still be consistent and easy to querry.
Second, for making sure that the operator tag is not too hard to type, I think that adding a taginfo based autocomplete to the operator=* field in iD could solve this.  I would have to open an issue about that on Github, though.
Third, another fear was that a list of expanded operators separated by semicolons would be hard to work with.  I have no easy solution for this.  Perhaps, iD could have something to organize the operator tags into blocks, rather than just text like other fields.
I would like to convert the tags this weekend, so please let me know if you have any suggestions for how to make the conversion less problematic.
Thank you, 
Leif Rasmussen
_______________________________________________
Talk-us mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

_______________________________________________
Talk-us mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

_______________________________________________
Talk-us mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: USPS Post Boxes

EthnicFood IsGreat
In reply to this post by Leif Rasmussen

> Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 14:25:15 -0700
> From: Peter Dobratz <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: "[hidden email] Openstreetmap"
> <[hidden email]>, [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Talk-us] USPS Post Boxes
>
> It would be good to standardize on operator tags for the 4 major carriers
> as you mentioned.  The logos for DHL, FedEx, and UPS have those exact
> letters in them, so if people map what they see, then they will end up with
> those exact values.  However, as mentioned, the USPS logo actually contains
> the text United States Postal Service.
>
> I could be convinced to switch my tagging from United States Postal Service
> to USPS.  Are there any arguments to support the short form beyond it being
> easier to type?

[...]

I would like to point out there are free, little utilities like
Typertask that will quickly expand a few keystrokes into many more
letters.  This can greatly speed up typing long strings like "United
States Postal Service".

Mark

_______________________________________________
Talk-us mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us