Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

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Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

Rob Nickerson
Thanks for all the comments so far. I will communicate them back to the "github pull request" [1] on your behalf.

In regards to the comment about wanting a [x] button on the welcome text, it does disappear for logged in users and small screen devices. As for non logged in users this request has been raised already. I will mention that it has been brought up again, but I wouldn't hold out much hope for this one to change. The previous response was that it "provides a nice impetus to create an account. :)"

Regards,
Rob

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Re: Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

ael-3
On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 09:45:57PM +0000, Rob Nickerson wrote:
>
> In regards to the comment about wanting a [x] button on the welcome text,
> it does disappear for logged in users and small screen devices. As for non
> logged in users this request has been raised already. I will mention that
> it has been brought up again, but I wouldn't hold out much hope for this
> one to change. The previous response was that it "provides a nice impetus
> to create an account. :)"

That's just silly - the previous response. Why should one waste time
logging in even if already a contributor when just wanting to *use* the
map?

Potential contributors will want to be convinced that the map is useful
before being motivated to join.

ael


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Re: Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

Tom Hughes-3
On 16/11/13 23:19, ael wrote:

> On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 09:45:57PM +0000, Rob Nickerson wrote:
>
>> In regards to the comment about wanting a [x] button on the welcome text,
>> it does disappear for logged in users and small screen devices. As for non
>> logged in users this request has been raised already. I will mention that
>> it has been brought up again, but I wouldn't hold out much hope for this
>> one to change. The previous response was that it "provides a nice impetus
>> to create an account. :)"
>
> That's just silly - the previous response. Why should one waste time
> logging in even if already a contributor when just wanting to *use* the
> map?

The point is that "just using the map" is not our target audience.

As has been said many times, we are not trying to be an end user mapping
site that offers a Google Maps alternative for the masses.

Our target audience is people that want to signup and contribute.

Tom

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Re: Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

Oliver Jowett
On 17 November 2013 00:10, Tom Hughes <[hidden email]> wrote:

The point is that "just using the map" is not our target audience.

As has been said many times, we are not trying to be an end user mapping site that offers a Google Maps alternative for the masses.

Our target audience is people that want to signup and contribute.

I contribute when I see problems with the map in areas I am familiar with.

To see the problems, I have to be using the map in the first place.

To use the map I'd prefer not to have that signup box floating around all the time (I am only logged in when I am about to edit).

Oliver


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Re: Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

lsces
Oliver Jowett wrote:

>     The point is that "just using the map" is not our target audience.
>
>     As has been said many times, we are not trying to be an end user mapping
>     site that offers a Google Maps alternative for the masses.
>
>     Our target audience is people that want to signup and contribute.
>
> I contribute when I see problems with the map in areas I am familiar with.
>
> To see the problems, I have to be using the map in the first place.
>
> To use the map I'd prefer not to have that signup box floating around all the
> time (I am only logged in when I am about to edit).

I'd second that ( although this should probably be on the main talk list )

I CONTRIBUTE to mapping to provide correct information to my client base and I
encourage them to use OSM instead of Google because we do provide the correct
details, and in many cases the only detail in an area. We need a clean user
interface which has easy access to edit functions, although I'm tending towards
off-line editing as certainly I would NOT recommend iD even to new users, so
josm currently seems the only option anyway going forward!

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Re: Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

Rob Nickerson
In reply to this post by Oliver Jowett

To use the map I'd prefer not to have that signup box floating around all the time (I am only logged in when I am about to edit).

Oliver


You could tick the stay logged in button, or alternatively if you want a full screen map there are plenty of sites that provide alternate views of OSM data. One such full screen example is at:

http://faffy.openstreetmap.org/?zoom=4&lat=47.63024&lon=1.75347&layers=00000000B

Regards,
Rob

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Re: Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

Oliver Jowett
On 17 November 2013 15:06, Rob Nickerson <[hidden email]> wrote:

To use the map I'd prefer not to have that signup box floating around all the time (I am only logged in when I am about to edit).

Oliver


You could tick the stay logged in button,

I don't retain cookies between browser sessions.
 
or alternatively if you want a full screen map there are plenty of sites that provide alternate views of OSM data. One such full screen example is at:

http://faffy.openstreetmap.org/?zoom=4&lat=47.63024&lon=1.75347&layers=00000000B

Is the response to "Here's a usability issue with the proposed changes" really "use something else then"?

Oliver


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Re: Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

Rob Nickerson
On 17 November 2013 21:14, Oliver Jowett <[hidden email]> wrote:
Is the response to "Here's a usability issue with the proposed changes" really "use something else then"?

Oliver


Not at all. I am trying to help you by communicating the fact that this change is upcoming, and I am collating responses and feeding them back to John. I simply noted that this request has been made previously and it was rejected on the basis that the OSM.org website's primary focus is to spread the message of how OSM is different. There are some people within the community that think we should not provide a map on the home screen and instead do something like http://openstreetmap.de/ or even http://openstreetmap.us/

I will feed these comments back, and ask for the issue to be reconsidered, but please this is by no means a guarantee that thing will be changed.

Regards,
Rob

p.s. This redesign is a proposal from John of the MapBox team. It will ultimately be accepted or rejected by the OSM Foundation/working groups. Anyone can propose changes, so if you have the coding skills to make this change then feel free to do it and add a "pull request" on github.

 

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Re: Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

Jonathan
In reply to this post by Oliver Jowett
I think the point Rob was making is that OpenStreetMap.org can't be all things to all men and neither should it attempt to be.  There are many many instances of OSM map data rendered in ways that appeal to various users, the OpenStreetMap.org page should show a generic map use with information and links to encourage new users and new contributors.  As a regular contributor I rarely go to OpenStreetMap.org, I approach the map data from other more specialised routes depending on my needs.

I feel that the new layout is an improvement on the current and pretty well gets the balance right.

Personally speaking I don't feel it would be a terrible idea to ditch the OpenStreetMap.org map and just have this page as the homepage:  http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Using_OpenStreetMap

I don't believe OSM is about rendering maps, isn't it about creating a cartographic database?

Jonathan
http://bigfatfrog67.me

On 17/11/2013 21:14, Oliver Jowett wrote:
On 17 November 2013 15:06, Rob Nickerson <[hidden email]> wrote:

To use the map I'd prefer not to have that signup box floating around all the time (I am only logged in when I am about to edit).

Oliver


You could tick the stay logged in button,

I don't retain cookies between browser sessions.
 
or alternatively if you want a full screen map there are plenty of sites that provide alternate views of OSM data. One such full screen example is at:

http://faffy.openstreetmap.org/?zoom=4&lat=47.63024&lon=1.75347&layers=00000000B

Is the response to "Here's a usability issue with the proposed changes" really "use something else then"?

Oliver



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Re: Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

Jonathan
In reply to this post by Rob Nickerson
Just read this after sending my reply to Oliver and I think you're right, also think the http://openstreetmap.de/ or even http://openstreetmap.us/ are right also.

If we are to render a version of OSM then it should just be seen as a "reference implementation" of the DB and not some holy grail.

Jonathan
http://bigfatfrog67.me

On 17/11/2013 21:42, Rob Nickerson wrote:
On 17 November 2013 21:14, Oliver Jowett <[hidden email]> wrote:
Is the response to "Here's a usability issue with the proposed changes" really "use something else then"?

Oliver


Not at all. I am trying to help you by communicating the fact that this change is upcoming, and I am collating responses and feeding them back to John. I simply noted that this request has been made previously and it was rejected on the basis that the OSM.org website's primary focus is to spread the message of how OSM is different. There are some people within the community that think we should not provide a map on the home screen and instead do something like http://openstreetmap.de/ or even http://openstreetmap.us/

I will feed these comments back, and ask for the issue to be reconsidered, but please this is by no means a guarantee that thing will be changed.

Regards,
Rob

p.s. This redesign is a proposal from John of the MapBox team. It will ultimately be accepted or rejected by the OSM Foundation/working groups. Anyone can propose changes, so if you have the coding skills to make this change then feel free to do it and add a "pull request" on github.

 


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Re: Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

lsces
In reply to this post by Jonathan
Jonathan wrote:
> Personally speaking I don't feel it would be a terrible idea to ditch the
> OpenStreetMap.org map and just have this page as the homepage:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Using_OpenStreetMap
>
> I don't believe OSM is about rendering maps, isn't it about creating a
> cartographic database?

There is basically no reason that we can't simply have
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org giving direct access to the documentation
and
http://map.openstreetmap.org giving clean access to the same map layers that the
editor provides as a background.

Then leave http://openstreetmap.org to proide what ever people want from that
view ...

Yes other versions of the map exist and can be used, but this is the definative
map, and changes made here are reflected promptly while some other maps can be
weeks behind ... I can post changes and see them rendered fairly promptly. But
as yet there is no tidy method of reflecting those changes into my own rendering
... which is another problem here.

--
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L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
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Re: Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

sdoerr
In reply to this post by Jonathan
On the contrary, I use openstreetmap.org all the time. Whenever I encounter a place I'm unfamiliar with, I look it up on openstreetmap.org. I almost never look at renderings of OSM data through another web-site. In Facebook postings and emails, where I want to link to a map it's invariably to openstreetmap.org that I link. I personally don't see openstreetmap.org as a contributor-oriented web site. I see it as a showcase to the world - though of course it must always provide me with a pathway to edit the database.

Steve

On 17/11/2013 21:47, Jonathan wrote:
I think the point Rob was making is that OpenStreetMap.org can't be all things to all men and neither should it attempt to be.  There are many many instances of OSM map data rendered in ways that appeal to various users, the OpenStreetMap.org page should show a generic map use with information and links to encourage new users and new contributors.  As a regular contributor I rarely go to OpenStreetMap.org, I approach the map data from other more specialised routes depending on my needs.

I feel that the new layout is an improvement on the current and pretty well gets the balance right.

Personally speaking I don't feel it would be a terrible idea to ditch the OpenStreetMap.org map and just have this page as the homepage:  http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Using_OpenStreetMap

I don't believe OSM is about rendering maps, isn't it about creating a cartographic database?

Jonathan
http://bigfatfrog67.me

On 17/11/2013 21:14, Oliver Jowett wrote:
On 17 November 2013 15:06, Rob Nickerson <[hidden email]> wrote:

To use the map I'd prefer not to have that signup box floating around all the time (I am only logged in when I am about to edit).

Oliver


You could tick the stay logged in button,

I don't retain cookies between browser sessions.
 
or alternatively if you want a full screen map there are plenty of sites that provide alternate views of OSM data. One such full screen example is at:

http://faffy.openstreetmap.org/?zoom=4&lat=47.63024&lon=1.75347&layers=00000000B

Is the response to "Here's a usability issue with the proposed changes" really "use something else then"?

Oliver



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Re: Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

Oliver Jowett
In reply to this post by Rob Nickerson
On 17 November 2013 21:42, Rob Nickerson <[hidden email]> wrote:

p.s. This redesign is a proposal from John of the MapBox team. It will ultimately be accepted or rejected by the OSM Foundation/working groups. Anyone can propose changes, so if you have the coding skills to make this change then feel free to do it and add a "pull request" on github.

Oof, web development is really not my favorite activity :(

I don't have much more to say here and I don't really want to get into a big discussion about the pros and cons of what osm.org should show - I'll just limit myself to reiterating that a close button on that bit of the new design would be a great idea, even if I have to hit it every time I visit :)

Oliver


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Re: Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

Jonathan
In reply to this post by Jonathan
Yes David, I think you're right.  Those are some very good points which
I think needs to be address by us.

I can almost see OSM splitting into two halves, one half concentrating
on the human facing side of OSM, such as map rendering, interfacing with
users and building user apps and features, and the other half
concentrating on the data side, such as editing, data structure,
integrity, imports and exports?

Jonathan

http://bigfatfrog67.me

On 18/11/2013 00:45, David Woolley wrote:

> On 17/11/13 21:47, Jonathan wrote:
>
>>
>> I don't believe OSM is about rendering maps, isn't it about creating a
>> cartographic database?
>
> That's not going to be true of the new mappers you are trying to
> encourage.  I suspect you are nearing saturation for the people who
> actually appreciate the underlying database and are now competing with
> Google mappers.  To the extent the data is not being used for end user
> maps, or only for ones for which you have to pay, a lot of people will
> see no point in contributing.  To the extent that it used in
> customised rendering, you should be getting those sites to provide
> access to the editing tools, so that mappers can edit on the sites
> they are using for working maps.
>


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Re: Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

SomeoneElse
Jonathan wrote:
>
> I can almost see OSM splitting into two halves, one half concentrating
> on the human facing side of OSM, such as map rendering, interfacing
> with users and building user apps and features, and the other half
> concentrating on the data side, such as editing, data structure,
> integrity, imports and exports?

Presumably someone still needs to go out with a GPS and collect the data :)

Cheers,

Andy


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Re: Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website

Jonathan
Well yes and that would fall under the data side, but are traces really
that important now? They have some uses but the bulk of sources now and
going forward are from other methods?

Jonathan

http://bigfatfrog67.me

On 18/11/2013 10:16, SomeoneElse wrote:

> Jonathan wrote:
>>
>> I can almost see OSM splitting into two halves, one half
>> concentrating on the human facing side of OSM, such as map rendering,
>> interfacing with users and building user apps and features, and the
>> other half concentrating on the data side, such as editing, data
>> structure, integrity, imports and exports?
>
> Presumably someone still needs to go out with a GPS and collect the
> data :)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andy
>
>
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Sources - was "Re: Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website"

SomeoneElse
Jonathan wrote:
...  but are traces really that important now? They have some uses but the bulk of sources now and going forward are from other methods?

If "other methods" means "copying from other data sources rather than actually going out and surveying" then you're never going to get "the best map", only "a map that is in some areas almost as good as some others".

For example, yesterday I was here:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/53.2346/-0.3269


Without going there you'd be able to guess at the exent of the woodland (depending on the age of the Bing imagery) and you'd think (based on what OS OpenData says) that it's called "Stanfield Wood".

If you go and have a look you can see the correct name ("Stainfield Wood" - which matches the village to the north), who runs it, and the fact that it's not open to the public.  The actual GPS trace is useful for helping to spot places where Bing is offset from reality (although here in flat Lincolnshire it's only a 4-5m at a guess).

Cheers,

Andy


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Re: Sources - was "Re: Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website"

Philip Barnes

 Also the area we are lacking at the moment is rights of way, these are often not visible on satellite imagery and the only way to map them is to go out and walk them with a GPS.


Phil (trigpoint)

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On 18/11/2013 13:03 SomeoneElse wrote:

Jonathan wrote:
...  but are traces really that important now? They have some uses but the bulk of sources now and going forward are from other methods?

If "other methods" means "copying from other data sources rather than actually going out and surveying" then you're never going to get "the best map", only "a map that is in some areas almost as good as some others".

For example, yesterday I was here:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/53.2346/-0.3269


Without going there you'd be able to guess at the exent of the woodland (depending on the age of the Bing imagery) and you'd think (based on what OS OpenData says) that it's called "Stanfield Wood".

If you go and have a look you can see the correct name ("Stainfield Wood" - which matches the village to the north), who runs it, and the fact that it's not open to the public.  The actual GPS trace is useful for helping to spot places where Bing is offset from reality (although here in flat Lincolnshire it's only a 4-5m at a guess).

Cheers,

Andy



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Re: Sources - was "Re: Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website"

Jonathan
I should re-phrase my comment, GPS traces are important, but for small niche parts of the map or brand new developments.  I do use GPS, but the bulk of editing is done from other sources, and I don't mean Bing, there are loads of sources coming online every day.

In Worcestershire, where the local council make available a TMS service of the public rights of way and add to that overhead imagery to confirm where people are actually walking across a field and I've mapped a huge percentage of the PRoW around here without leaving home.  Yes some bits need an onsite verification but the bulk is armchair.

I'm not ashamed of armchair mapping and all power to those who have the time and resources to go and survey on foot but the vast percentage of my mapping time is spent online.  If I do ground survey it's when I'm somewhere for work.

Jonathan
http://bigfatfrog67.me

On 18/11/2013 13:15, Philip Barnes wrote:

 Also the area we are lacking at the moment is rights of way, these are often not visible on satellite imagery and the only way to map them is to go out and walk them with a GPS.


Phil (trigpoint)

--

 

Sent from my Nokia N9

 


On 18/11/2013 13:03 SomeoneElse wrote:

Jonathan wrote:
...  but are traces really that important now? They have some uses but the bulk of sources now and going forward are from other methods?

If "other methods" means "copying from other data sources rather than actually going out and surveying" then you're never going to get "the best map", only "a map that is in some areas almost as good as some others".

For example, yesterday I was here:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/53.2346/-0.3269


Without going there you'd be able to guess at the exent of the woodland (depending on the age of the Bing imagery) and you'd think (based on what OS OpenData says) that it's called "Stanfield Wood".

If you go and have a look you can see the correct name ("Stainfield Wood" - which matches the village to the north), who runs it, and the fact that it's not open to the public.  The actual GPS trace is useful for helping to spot places where Bing is offset from reality (although here in flat Lincolnshire it's only a 4-5m at a guess).

Cheers,

Andy




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Re: Sources - was "Re: Upcoming changes to OpenStreetMap.org website"

Jonathan
In reply to this post by SomeoneElse
Why re-invent the wheel? There's nothing wrong with "copying" a source
that is open, yes, there's always the caveat of the quality of its data
and yes verify some of it with your own survey but there is too much of
the World to map and too few people.  Stand on the shoulders of Giants!  
Last week the council were outside with theodolite things (a technical
term) confirming council boundaries, I'm not going to doubt their
measurements, when that data comes online I'll take it and concentrate
on other stuff.

Armchair mapping is good, [caveats here].  The people of the Philippines
are very grateful for us armchair mappers. :-)

Ground surveying is good, [caveats here]. But the huge percentage (based
on bytes, changesets or manhours) of what is being added to the map
going forward is not from GPS.

Jonathan

http://bigfatfrog67.me

On 18/11/2013 13:03, SomeoneElse wrote:
> If "other methods" means "copying from other data sources rather than
> actually going out and surveying" then you're never going to get "the
> best map", only "a map that is in some areas almost as good as some
> others".


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1234