Using OSM as database for nature park hiking routes?

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Using OSM as database for nature park hiking routes?

General Discussion mailing list
Hi folks,

I need some guidance from the assembled wisdom, concerning hiking
routes, information-maps and signposts.

I got involved with a nature park in Germany, which wants to start an
initiative to collect all existing local hiking routes (230) in the area
(ca. 1600 km), and produce orientation maps (ca. 100) in collaboration
with max. 40 municipalities.

So they ask me about what kind of database they should use to work on
this topic with QGIS and with the system of a specialized company.
I got not much information till now, but from what I see so far, there
is no need to keep a special database on those routes as all could be
planted into OSM and that they do not need to buy themselves in a
locked-up proprietary system.

The big question is now, what is the most elegant way for those not very
tecky people to import/export the data of "their" routes and "their"
orientation maps and signposts when I'm not around?
The merits I earned with OSM so far is buying a book in 2013 and
digitizing some meadows around my village and using some data in QGIS,
but I already started to investigate the wiki for clever usage of tags etc.

So, what do you think? Should I start the fight for the usage of OSM and
against that proprietary stuff or should I stay calm, take the money and
let them do what seems to be the easy way?

Cheers,
Bernd

p.s. As a background map for their routes, they would like to have
OpenTopoMap ;)


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Re: Using OSM as database for nature park hiking routes?

Warin
Are any of their routes already in OSM?

If not then pick an existing route local to the area and show them it using

https://hiking.waymarkedtrails.org/#route?id=8505462

Click on the elevation profile - auto generated.
And people can download a gpx file for the route.

And they can generate their own maps - print them out without copyright
fees (though donations would be appreciated) and sell/give them away ..



On 14/08/19 06:17, Bernd Vogelgesang via talk wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> I need some guidance from the assembled wisdom, concerning hiking
> routes, information-maps and signposts.
>
> I got involved with a nature park in Germany, which wants to start an
> initiative to collect all existing local hiking routes (230) in the area
> (ca. 1600 km), and produce orientation maps (ca. 100) in collaboration
> with max. 40 municipalities.
>
> So they ask me about what kind of database they should use to work on
> this topic with QGIS and with the system of a specialized company.
> I got not much information till now, but from what I see so far, there
> is no need to keep a special database on those routes as all could be
> planted into OSM and that they do not need to buy themselves in a
> locked-up proprietary system.
>
> The big question is now, what is the most elegant way for those not very
> tecky people to import/export the data of "their" routes and "their"
> orientation maps and signposts when I'm not around?
> The merits I earned with OSM so far is buying a book in 2013 and
> digitizing some meadows around my village and using some data in QGIS,
> but I already started to investigate the wiki for clever usage of tags
> etc.
>
> So, what do you think? Should I start the fight for the usage of OSM and
> against that proprietary stuff or should I stay calm, take the money and
> let them do what seems to be the easy way?
>
> Cheers,
> Bernd
>
> p.s. As a background map for their routes, they would like to have
> OpenTopoMap ;)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk



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Re: Using OSM as database for nature park hiking routes?

Andrew Harvey-3
In reply to this post by General Discussion mailing list

Talking from my experience, there are a lot of hiking paths, but only some are signposted routes, so only some can be actual routes in OSM. Because of that you would need to maintain all the other informal or subjective routes outside OSM, if there are any.

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Re: Using OSM as database for nature park hiking routes?

Yves-2
If these routes are endorsed in any way by a nature park, they're no longer completely informal or subjective...
Yves

Le 14 août 2019 05:19:56 GMT+02:00, Andrew Harvey <[hidden email]> a écrit :

Talking from my experience, there are a lot of hiking paths, but only some are signposted routes, so only some can be actual routes in OSM. Because of that you would need to maintain all the other informal or subjective routes outside OSM, if there are any.

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Re: Using OSM as database for nature park hiking routes?

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by General Discussion mailing list

13 sie 2019, 22:17 od [hidden email]:
So they ask me about what kind of database they should use to work on
this topic with QGIS and with the system of a specialized company.
I got not much information till now, but from what I see so far, there
is no need to keep a special database on those routes as all could be
planted into OSM and that they do not need to buy themselves in a
locked-up proprietary system.
What about system that they control
and is not proprietary or locked up?

It sounds like something that can be
stored in a simple database or even
in bunch of gpx/geojson/.osm files.

I would recommend some open storage
format that is simple and publishing
all datasets under permissible license
(CC0, ODBL?).

I would advise against OSM import
as necessary part of storing data
and using OSM as sole storage location.

What kind of proprietary
software/database/format/data
would be useful here?

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Re: Using OSM as database for nature park hiking routes?

Nuno Caldeira
In reply to this post by General Discussion mailing list

Just use the good practices of Inspire (you are in EU). For example, in Portugal, it's mandatory all public institutions to use geopackage  https://inspire.ec.europa.eu/events/webinar-inspire-good-practices-%E2%80%93-alternative-encodings

Either use geopackage or PostGIS. Stay away from proprietary ESRI format Geodatabase.



Às 21:17 de 13/08/2019, Bernd Vogelgesang via talk escreveu:
Hi folks,

I need some guidance from the assembled wisdom, concerning hiking
routes, information-maps and signposts.

I got involved with a nature park in Germany, which wants to start an
initiative to collect all existing local hiking routes (230) in the area
(ca. 1600 km), and produce orientation maps (ca. 100) in collaboration
with max. 40 municipalities.

So they ask me about what kind of database they should use to work on
this topic with QGIS and with the system of a specialized company.
I got not much information till now, but from what I see so far, there
is no need to keep a special database on those routes as all could be
planted into OSM and that they do not need to buy themselves in a
locked-up proprietary system.

The big question is now, what is the most elegant way for those not very
tecky people to import/export the data of "their" routes and "their"
orientation maps and signposts when I'm not around?
The merits I earned with OSM so far is buying a book in 2013 and
digitizing some meadows around my village and using some data in QGIS,
but I already started to investigate the wiki for clever usage of tags etc.

So, what do you think? Should I start the fight for the usage of OSM and
against that proprietary stuff or should I stay calm, take the money and
let them do what seems to be the easy way?

Cheers,
Bernd

p.s. As a background map for their routes, they would like to have
OpenTopoMap ;)


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Re: Using OSM as database for nature park hiking routes?

General Discussion mailing list
In reply to this post by Yves-2
Bernd
Could you post an OSM link to the nature park area?

Yves
Needs confirming, but from Bernd describing the walks as "their routes" I got the impression they were routes conceived by individual walkers rather than the park's authorities.

DaveF

On 14/08/2019 05:03, Yves wrote:
If these routes are endorsed in any way by a nature park, they're no longer completely informal or subjective...
Yves 

Le 14 août 2019 05:19:56 GMT+02:00, Andrew Harvey [hidden email] a écrit :
The hiking routes
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Hiking#Tagging_walking_and_hiking_Route_Networks
added
to OSM should be verifiable
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Verifiability.

Talking from my experience, there are a lot of hiking paths, but only
some
are signposted routes, so only some can be actual routes in OSM.
Because of
that you would need to maintain all the other informal or subjective
routes
outside OSM, if there are any.

      

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Re: Using OSM as database for nature park hiking routes?

General Discussion mailing list

Hi Dave and others,

thanks so far for your comments.
As I understood myself so far, the hiking routes in question are local hiking routes which fulfil the "quality standards" of the nature park.

They are (mostly) marked already and maintained by local volunteers/municipalities or not maintained at all. I think the goal of the nature park is to help municipalities by setting up a regional hiking routes network under the label of the nature park and co-finance the infrastructure as information-panels of the local routes etc. And it is not clear so far if really all municipalities have an interest in this initiative at all.

A few of those local hiking routes are already tagged in OSM. These are the boundaries of the nature park: https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/3890110

To be clear:
I do not have the job yet, I just need to find out if working somehow with or within OSM will save time and resources and give a greater benefit to anyone.
E.g. they already "digitized" the routes in really lousy quality (while the roads and tracks are already in OSM in perfect quality), lots of routes join the same ways e.g. in and around the villages (and are now separate lines instead of relations on ways like in OSM)
Plus, there are all those already existing international and national hiking routes crossing the area, which should not be ignored when setting up own maps later.

So using OSM-data seems to be logical for me, the question is how to do it in a clever way, and how to store back new informations in a efficient way.

Thanks so far,Bernd




Am 14.08.19 um 15:20 schrieb Dave F:
Bernd
Could you post an OSM link to the nature park area?

Yves
Needs confirming, but from Bernd describing the walks as "their routes" I got the impression they were routes conceived by individual walkers rather than the park's authorities.

DaveF

On 14/08/2019 05:03, Yves wrote:
If these routes are endorsed in any way by a nature park, they're no longer completely informal or subjective...
Yves

Le 14 août 2019 05:19:56 GMT+02:00, Andrew Harvey [hidden email] a écrit :
The hiking routes
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Hiking#Tagging_walking_and_hiking_Route_Networks
added
to OSM should be verifiable
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Verifiability.

Talking from my experience, there are a lot of hiking paths, but only
some
are signposted routes, so only some can be actual routes in OSM.
Because of
that you would need to maintain all the other informal or subjective
routes
outside OSM, if there are any.


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Re: Using OSM as database for nature park hiking routes?

Mateusz Konieczny-3



14 Aug 2019, 16:46 by [hidden email]:

not maintained at all

Note that unsigned routes are at best questionable content in OSM.

And proposed, gone, planned are even more questionable and something that
should be deleted rather than added.

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Re: Using OSM as database for nature park hiking routes?

stevea
I believe there are some (limited) contexts in which proposed routes can and should be added to OSM.

For example, in the USA, we have bicycle routes in our numbered national bicycle route network (USBRS, see https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/United_States_Bicycle_Route_System, tens-of-thousands of km) after they are selected / maintained by the state ("middle-level," admin_level=4) Department of Transportation and formally proposed to the national body (AASHTO) which designates and catalogs them, but not until they are approved by AASHTO.  This "very high bar standard" which has evolved since 2012-2014 allows these sometimes quite lengthy route data (>1000 km in some cases) to be carefully entered into OSM (route relation tagged state=proposed) while AASHTO takes time (about 2-3 months) to vote them up or down.  (AASHTO always approves these proposed routes, but it might not, in which case OSM would simply delete the entered route data).  OSM-US requested and received from AASHTO specific permission to enter and use the data like this (click the link in the wiki for the formal letter).

As it can take several months to enter these rather substantial data, and AASHTO works its own "ballot" process in the meantime, OSM has reached a consensus to enter these routes as proposed while they are "on ballot, being considered for approval."  After approval, we simply remove the "state=proposed" tag.  Then OpenCycleMap's (OCM's) dashed lines which display for "proposed" begin to render as solid lines, meaning "a real route is here."  Official (national standard, MUTCD) signage usually follows on-the-ground.

Many maps do this or something very much like it.  Often there are even TWO "pre-reality" route designations, "proposed" (which I agree, can be controversial if/as entered into OSM "wrongly") and "under construction."  As the latter is a much more "on-the-ground" reality that most OSM Contributors can agree deserves entry, we have tags for "construction" which do render in Carto (and other renderers).  These "construction" tags accurately convey what is on-the-ground in the real-world.  But proposed, much less so.  As an example of these data being in OSM + useful and in OSM + ignored:  OCM displays proposed routes (as dashed lines), though the Lonvia bicycle route renderer (waymarkedtrails.org) simply ignores them, not displaying proposed routes at all.  This seems correct:  put the proposed route data in the map, let the renderer of your choice decide whether or not they are rendered.

From these USA experiences, I encourage those curious to read the wiki above (especially "high bar standards" in its Proposed section), as well as https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/United_States/Bicycle_Networks, where we recently added an initial "What to map" section saying what TO map (real infrastructure, real routes, especially when signed or on a government-published map) and what NOT to map (routes on a planning map, aspirational routes, unfunded routes, route "recommendations" or "rides" published by a third party, as these may be ephemeral or subjective).

OSM (in the USA, I'm not sure about elsewhere) also has the convention of tagging unsigned_ref=* to designate the number of a route which exists in some legal sense, but which remains unsigned on-the-ground (for various reasons).

For national bicycle routes in the USA, this process of consensus was somewhat contentious, taking several years to fully evolve.  Like any successful compromise (often what a consensus ends up being), not everybody was completely happy with its finality, but because it was discussed (widely and at high levels), is documented and therefore is or can be fully understood, it works well.  There is every reason to believe it will continue to work well going forward.

As Mateusz says "unsigned routes are at best questionable content," I'll only slightly disagree with him:  where unsigned and/or proposed routes can truly parallel a large effort to get substantial data into OSM over a medium- or longer-term time frame (weeks, months, even years, as some projects like high-speed rail can even take decades), there ARE circumstances where state=proposed or unsigned_ref can facilitate good route data entry into OSM.

Thank you for reading,
SteveA
California

> On Aug 14, 2019, at 1:29 PM, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
> 14 Aug 2019, 16:46 by [hidden email]:
> not maintained at all
>
> Note that unsigned routes are at best questionable content in OSM.
>
> And proposed, gone, planned are even more questionable and something that
> should be deleted rather than added.


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