Using Wifi to make phone calls from mobiles using a router.

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Using Wifi to make phone calls from mobiles using a router.

john whelan-2
The problem was mentioned some time ago in reference to a refugee camp in Europe.

You need csip simple and to know the phone's ip address.  IP checker is a simple free app that will how this.

"Just install csip simple and create a profile called "user", not linked to any server. To call another person with the same setup, you just need to know his ip address. Once they have sent it via voice, email, sms or whatsapp or ever (much better) a safer way like textsecure, you simply type "user@15.14.173 et cetera (basically user@ other person's ip) and their Csipsimple will ring. It works and it's the purest form of Internet. "

It doesn't have to be called user by the way.  So John or Mabel will work fine.  You do need the ip address so to call John it would be [hidden email] [hidden email]

You do not need the router to be connected to the internet for this to work by the way.

Cut and paste should work.  So stick the wifi router up high and you should be able to cover a fair range.

Cheerio John



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Re: Using Wifi to make phone calls from mobiles using a router.

verdy_p
That's a uninformed and wrong reply ! The syntax you use is completely invalid, and this obviously does not work this way to reach people using routers (now almost everyone!) and not having a static IPv4 address (a vast majority of people in the world).

In most cases you'll need a proxying server, and even with that you'll need a client-side app (or service integrated in the router) to listen for incoming calls, a prior registration on the proxy service, and a protocol to route the call this way...

2018-01-11 0:58 GMT+01:00 john whelan <[hidden email]>:
The problem was mentioned some time ago in reference to a refugee camp in Europe.

You need csip simple and to know the phone's ip address.  IP checker is a simple free app that will how this.

"Just install csip simple and create a profile called "user", not linked to any server. To call another person with the same setup, you just need to know his ip address. Once they have sent it via voice, email, sms or whatsapp or ever (much better) a safer way like textsecure, you simply type "user@15.14.173 et cetera (basically user@ other person's ip) and their Csipsimple will ring. It works and it's the purest form of Internet. "

It doesn't have to be called user by the way.  So John or Mabel will work fine.  You do need the ip address so to call John it would be [hidden email] [hidden email]

You do not need the router to be connected to the internet for this to work by the way.

Cut and paste should work.  So stick the wifi router up high and you should be able to cover a fair range.

Cheerio John



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Re: Using Wifi to make phone calls from mobiles using a router.

Bjoern Hassler
In reply to this post by john whelan-2
Hi John, Hi Philippe,

Thanks for the post. I'd written this reply before Philippe posted, but not hit sent, sorry. Let me send it anyway.

To explain further: Unless one router extends the network of the other, each phone would be behind a firewall created by the router. So you'd have to place the phone in the DMZ or port-forward on the router. Using https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSipSimple might be especially helpful if you are doing point-to-point WiFi (without internet connection of either router). A "192.168.x.x" is network internal, so you won't be able to connect between "192.168.y.y". And even then, as Philippe points out, the address of the router may not be fixed.

However, if the routers are connected to the internet, it would also be possible to use commercial VOIP apps (like WhatsApp, Hangouts, Skype). I am not sure how they route voice traffic these days, but Skype used to allow peer-to-peer, which like Hangouts/WhatsApp should mean "peer-to-peer when possible". In any case, for an app that just "handshakes" via the internet, and then can use peer-to-peer, only the connectivity between the routers matters. A nice feature would be if the app told you what it's doing (p2p or via server) so that you know whether you're safe on WiFi or killing the internet connection...

There is an app called FireChat, that apparently can do p2p off-internet. It's proprietary, and I haven't looking into it much. However, it strikes me that such an app would be really useful, especially server-less, with the option to connect to a global network if available. 

Is there anybody who wants to form a little action group to investigate?

Hope this helps!
Bjoern

On 10 January 2018 at 23:58, john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
The problem was mentioned some time ago in reference to a refugee camp in Europe.

You need csip simple and to know the phone's ip address.  IP checker is a simple free app that will how this.

"Just install csip simple and create a profile called "user", not linked to any server. To call another person with the same setup, you just need to know his ip address. Once they have sent it via voice, email, sms or whatsapp or ever (much better) a safer way like textsecure, you simply type "user@15.14.173 et cetera (basically user@ other person's ip) and their Csipsimple will ring. It works and it's the purest form of Internet. "

It doesn't have to be called user by the way.  So John or Mabel will work fine.  You do need the ip address so to call John it would be [hidden email] [hidden email]

You do not need the router to be connected to the internet for this to work by the way.

Cut and paste should work.  So stick the wifi router up high and you should be able to cover a fair range.

Cheerio John



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Re: Using Wifi to make phone calls from mobiles using a router.

Rupert Allan-4
I'm interested in all things p2p and trying to learn if Software Defined Radio and HAM/sideband radio could be brought into use for resource-poor contexts...
Count me in, Bjoern, time-permitting.
Best,

Rupert 

On 11 Jan 2018 14:15, "Bjoern Hassler" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi John, Hi Philippe,

Thanks for the post. I'd written this reply before Philippe posted, but not hit sent, sorry. Let me send it anyway.

To explain further: Unless one router extends the network of the other, each phone would be behind a firewall created by the router. So you'd have to place the phone in the DMZ or port-forward on the router. Using https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSipSimple might be especially helpful if you are doing point-to-point WiFi (without internet connection of either router). A "192.168.x.x" is network internal, so you won't be able to connect between "192.168.y.y". And even then, as Philippe points out, the address of the router may not be fixed.

However, if the routers are connected to the internet, it would also be possible to use commercial VOIP apps (like WhatsApp, Hangouts, Skype). I am not sure how they route voice traffic these days, but Skype used to allow peer-to-peer, which like Hangouts/WhatsApp should mean "peer-to-peer when possible". In any case, for an app that just "handshakes" via the internet, and then can use peer-to-peer, only the connectivity between the routers matters. A nice feature would be if the app told you what it's doing (p2p or via server) so that you know whether you're safe on WiFi or killing the internet connection...

There is an app called FireChat, that apparently can do p2p off-internet. It's proprietary, and I haven't looking into it much. However, it strikes me that such an app would be really useful, especially server-less, with the option to connect to a global network if available. 

Is there anybody who wants to form a little action group to investigate?

Hope this helps!
Bjoern

On 10 January 2018 at 23:58, john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
The problem was mentioned some time ago in reference to a refugee camp in Europe.

You need csip simple and to know the phone's ip address.  IP checker is a simple free app that will how this.

"Just install csip simple and create a profile called "user", not linked to any server. To call another person with the same setup, you just need to know his ip address. Once they have sent it via voice, email, sms or whatsapp or ever (much better) a safer way like textsecure, you simply type "user@15.14.173 et cetera (basically user@ other person's ip) and their Csipsimple will ring. It works and it's the purest form of Internet. "

It doesn't have to be called user by the way.  So John or Mabel will work fine.  You do need the ip address so to call John it would be [hidden email] [hidden email]

You do not need the router to be connected to the internet for this to work by the way.

Cut and paste should work.  So stick the wifi router up high and you should be able to cover a fair range.

Cheerio John



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Re: Using Wifi to make phone calls from mobiles using a router.

Milo van der Linden-5
In reply to this post by john whelan-2
Please contact http://www.servalproject.org their project focuses exactly on this matter.

On Jan 11, 2018 12:59 AM, "john whelan" <[hidden email]> wrote:
The problem was mentioned some time ago in reference to a refugee camp in Europe.

You need csip simple and to know the phone's ip address.  IP checker is a simple free app that will how this.

"Just install csip simple and create a profile called "user", not linked to any server. To call another person with the same setup, you just need to know his ip address. Once they have sent it via voice, email, sms or whatsapp or ever (much better) a safer way like textsecure, you simply type "user@15.14.173 et cetera (basically user@ other person's ip) and their Csipsimple will ring. It works and it's the purest form of Internet. "

It doesn't have to be called user by the way.  So John or Mabel will work fine.  You do need the ip address so to call John it would be [hidden email] [hidden email]

You do not need the router to be connected to the internet for this to work by the way.

Cut and paste should work.  So stick the wifi router up high and you should be able to cover a fair range.

Cheerio John



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Re: Using Wifi to make phone calls from mobiles using a router.

Rupert Allan-4
Thanks Milo!

On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 3:08 PM, Milo van der Linden <[hidden email]> wrote:
Please contact http://www.servalproject.org their project focuses exactly on this matter.

On Jan 11, 2018 12:59 AM, "john whelan" <[hidden email]> wrote:
The problem was mentioned some time ago in reference to a refugee camp in Europe.

You need csip simple and to know the phone's ip address.  IP checker is a simple free app that will how this.

"Just install csip simple and create a profile called "user", not linked to any server. To call another person with the same setup, you just need to know his ip address. Once they have sent it via voice, email, sms or whatsapp or ever (much better) a safer way like textsecure, you simply type "user@15.14.173 et cetera (basically user@ other person's ip) and their Csipsimple will ring. It works and it's the purest form of Internet. "

It doesn't have to be called user by the way.  So John or Mabel will work fine.  You do need the ip address so to call John it would be [hidden email] [hidden email]

You do not need the router to be connected to the internet for this to work by the way.

Cut and paste should work.  So stick the wifi router up high and you should be able to cover a fair range.

Cheerio John



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Re: Using Wifi to make phone calls from mobiles using a router.

john whelan-2
In reply to this post by Milo van der Linden-5
I've looked at serval and its a mesh network that has some complexity and its not as reliable as one might desire.  It's better at text messages than phone calls especially if there are delays in getting across the network.  Also it really needs a special router with custom software.  They recommended a portable TP-Link router the MR3020 but no longer do so as the US government has tightened restrictions on modified routers.  The software moves forward when they can get funding so their mesh extender design is five years old at the moment.

csip simple is open source and has many users.  Normally its used to a server such as Asterisk an open source telephone exchange and ideally for a large implementation you'd go that route.  If you need to go beyond one router there are mesh network solutions that don't need an Internet connection.  Asterisk is available as on a dvd image as a instant install that insalls Unix as well.  A laptop has sufficient processing power but setting the parameters is not something an unskilled person can do in the field without very clear instructions.

The advantage of csip used in this way is it can be used on a small network and its relatively simple to set up.  All you need is the ip address of the phone you are calling.  It can use normal unmodified wifi routers. The TP-link MR3020 for example can be battery powered.  There are advantages in terms of keeping the electronics safe from fluctuating voltages.

There are other options such as Firechat but they aren't Open Source also they rely on the functionality of the version of Android you are using.  The later versions of Android have things such as WiFi direct which means in theory you can connect two devices without using anything else.  Unfortunately there isn't much software around at the moment capable of using it.

I'm not saying csip meets all requirements and it does need documentation to make it easier to use in the field.

If you start at the requirements then I think they include:

Independence from the Internet.  Either because it isn't available or because the bandwidth available is insufficient to meet demand.

Works on a a range of mobile phones Android version 4.1 up?  You need to define the base version.

Android or other operating systems as well?

Open Source for sanity's sake.  Proprietary systems are fine until the company goes out of business etc.

Can a Lap Top be used as a router to hand out the IP addresses?

Can it use standard unmodified hardware or does it need a particular device?

Can it reach devices beyond the router's firewall given an ipv6 address perhaps?

Cheerio John



On 11 January 2018 at 07:08, Milo van der Linden <[hidden email]> wrote:
Please contact http://www.servalproject.org their project focuses exactly on this matter.

On Jan 11, 2018 12:59 AM, "john whelan" <[hidden email]> wrote:
The problem was mentioned some time ago in reference to a refugee camp in Europe.

You need csip simple and to know the phone's ip address.  IP checker is a simple free app that will how this.

"Just install csip simple and create a profile called "user", not linked to any server. To call another person with the same setup, you just need to know his ip address. Once they have sent it via voice, email, sms or whatsapp or ever (much better) a safer way like textsecure, you simply type "user@15.14.173 et cetera (basically user@ other person's ip) and their Csipsimple will ring. It works and it's the purest form of Internet. "

It doesn't have to be called user by the way.  So John or Mabel will work fine.  You do need the ip address so to call John it would be [hidden email] [hidden email]

You do not need the router to be connected to the internet for this to work by the way.

Cut and paste should work.  So stick the wifi router up high and you should be able to cover a fair range.

Cheerio John



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Re: Using Wifi to make phone calls from mobiles using a router.

verdy_p
In reply to this post by Bjoern Hassler
There's no mistery to cross a router, most apps use UPnP in their local app to configure and keep open a routable port on the NAT router. Other solutions have existed but now UPnP is almost uniersally supported by most routers and users don't have to know their IP. Instead they renew their subscription (as long as their local app is running and connected to the Internet) to a directory server that will give routing info, and notably the public IP and port number to use to reach a user behind a NAT. However this is known to not work properly with some ISP's using "large NAT" (notably for mobile users: mobile users are instructed by their FAI to use their own telephony or VoIP service instead and pay their communications, and other people will call them to their normal mobile phone number!)

So no it is not simple to make any direct peer-to-peer communication without some third party service and specific configurations. An IP is no longer sufficient (and many users now no longer have an IPv4, they are only reachable via IPv6, and many IPv4-only users can't reach these IPv6 users directly without a third party proxy).

Direct peer-to-peer communication will be possible for every one if every one has an native IPv6 access (where NAT will no longer be needed: NAT over IPv6 is devil, only a transitory solutions for those users that still have only IPv4 connectivity and need to configure an external IPv6 proxy server providing them a single IPv6 address instead of a block of size /48 at least, where autoconfiguration allows setting a "permanently" routable IPv6 addesses for each app without using any NAT). So to perform a call in IPv6, just can just connect to "[::<IPv6 address>]:<standard port for VoIP app>]" and you no longer have to do any port number translations or configuration.



2018-01-11 12:12 GMT+01:00 Bjoern Hassler <[hidden email]>:
Hi John, Hi Philippe,

Thanks for the post. I'd written this reply before Philippe posted, but not hit sent, sorry. Let me send it anyway.

To explain further: Unless one router extends the network of the other, each phone would be behind a firewall created by the router. So you'd have to place the phone in the DMZ or port-forward on the router. Using https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSipSimple might be especially helpful if you are doing point-to-point WiFi (without internet connection of either router). A "192.168.x.x" is network internal, so you won't be able to connect between "192.168.y.y". And even then, as Philippe points out, the address of the router may not be fixed.

However, if the routers are connected to the internet, it would also be possible to use commercial VOIP apps (like WhatsApp, Hangouts, Skype). I am not sure how they route voice traffic these days, but Skype used to allow peer-to-peer, which like Hangouts/WhatsApp should mean "peer-to-peer when possible". In any case, for an app that just "handshakes" via the internet, and then can use peer-to-peer, only the connectivity between the routers matters. A nice feature would be if the app told you what it's doing (p2p or via server) so that you know whether you're safe on WiFi or killing the internet connection...

There is an app called FireChat, that apparently can do p2p off-internet. It's proprietary, and I haven't looking into it much. However, it strikes me that such an app would be really useful, especially server-less, with the option to connect to a global network if available. 

Is there anybody who wants to form a little action group to investigate?

Hope this helps!
Bjoern

On 10 January 2018 at 23:58, john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
The problem was mentioned some time ago in reference to a refugee camp in Europe.

You need csip simple and to know the phone's ip address.  IP checker is a simple free app that will how this.

"Just install csip simple and create a profile called "user", not linked to any server. To call another person with the same setup, you just need to know his ip address. Once they have sent it via voice, email, sms or whatsapp or ever (much better) a safer way like textsecure, you simply type "user@15.14.173 et cetera (basically user@ other person's ip) and their Csipsimple will ring. It works and it's the purest form of Internet. "

It doesn't have to be called user by the way.  So John or Mabel will work fine.  You do need the ip address so to call John it would be [hidden email] [hidden email]

You do not need the router to be connected to the internet for this to work by the way.

Cut and paste should work.  So stick the wifi router up high and you should be able to cover a fair range.

Cheerio John



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Re: Using Wifi to make phone calls from mobiles using a router.

john whelan-2
Calling a user at an ip address is purely a technical solution that may or may not be useful in the field.  To make it work it needs a set of clear instructions.  How do you load the two apps for a start without an internet connection, yes it can be done bit it needs to be documented. Yes the ip addresses come from the router and are normally dynamic but some routers will set up static ip addresses.  Even if they don't the ip addresses change very slowly.

I totally agree that skype etc is better and there are solutions that will connect csip to the normal phone network.

However every other solution I've seen needs special hardware.  A DNS server for example or it needs a connection to the internet.

There are some mesh network apps but they depend on a minimum version of Android.

From a network point of view directly connecting the phones is much satisfactory than crossing a mesh network especially for voice.

In the ideal world you'd unpack a laptop that had both Astrix (VOIP phone exchange) and an email server such as Dovecot / Postfix.  Then use the gmail app to connect to the local email server.  However that type of solution requires a level of expertise to set up and maintain.

If you have a large area to cover then something like Commotion or LibreMesh can be setup but they need special hardware.  Someone to set them up and do a certain amount of maintenance.

For a small area and limited number of people and when no Internet or special hardware is available then I think csip simple is worthy of consideration.

Cheerio John



On 11 January 2018 at 12:42, Philippe Verdy <[hidden email]> wrote:
There's no mistery to cross a router, most apps use UPnP in their local app to configure and keep open a routable port on the NAT router. Other solutions have existed but now UPnP is almost uniersally supported by most routers and users don't have to know their IP. Instead they renew their subscription (as long as their local app is running and connected to the Internet) to a directory server that will give routing info, and notably the public IP and port number to use to reach a user behind a NAT. However this is known to not work properly with some ISP's using "large NAT" (notably for mobile users: mobile users are instructed by their FAI to use their own telephony or VoIP service instead and pay their communications, and other people will call them to their normal mobile phone number!)

So no it is not simple to make any direct peer-to-peer communication without some third party service and specific configurations. An IP is no longer sufficient (and many users now no longer have an IPv4, they are only reachable via IPv6, and many IPv4-only users can't reach these IPv6 users directly without a third party proxy).

Direct peer-to-peer communication will be possible for every one if every one has an native IPv6 access (where NAT will no longer be needed: NAT over IPv6 is devil, only a transitory solutions for those users that still have only IPv4 connectivity and need to configure an external IPv6 proxy server providing them a single IPv6 address instead of a block of size /48 at least, where autoconfiguration allows setting a "permanently" routable IPv6 addesses for each app without using any NAT). So to perform a call in IPv6, just can just connect to "[::<IPv6 address>]:<standard port for VoIP app>]" and you no longer have to do any port number translations or configuration.



2018-01-11 12:12 GMT+01:00 Bjoern Hassler <[hidden email]>:
Hi John, Hi Philippe,

Thanks for the post. I'd written this reply before Philippe posted, but not hit sent, sorry. Let me send it anyway.

To explain further: Unless one router extends the network of the other, each phone would be behind a firewall created by the router. So you'd have to place the phone in the DMZ or port-forward on the router. Using https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSipSimple might be especially helpful if you are doing point-to-point WiFi (without internet connection of either router). A "192.168.x.x" is network internal, so you won't be able to connect between "192.168.y.y". And even then, as Philippe points out, the address of the router may not be fixed.

However, if the routers are connected to the internet, it would also be possible to use commercial VOIP apps (like WhatsApp, Hangouts, Skype). I am not sure how they route voice traffic these days, but Skype used to allow peer-to-peer, which like Hangouts/WhatsApp should mean "peer-to-peer when possible". In any case, for an app that just "handshakes" via the internet, and then can use peer-to-peer, only the connectivity between the routers matters. A nice feature would be if the app told you what it's doing (p2p or via server) so that you know whether you're safe on WiFi or killing the internet connection...

There is an app called FireChat, that apparently can do p2p off-internet. It's proprietary, and I haven't looking into it much. However, it strikes me that such an app would be really useful, especially server-less, with the option to connect to a global network if available. 

Is there anybody who wants to form a little action group to investigate?

Hope this helps!
Bjoern

On 10 January 2018 at 23:58, john whelan <[hidden email]> wrote:
The problem was mentioned some time ago in reference to a refugee camp in Europe.

You need csip simple and to know the phone's ip address.  IP checker is a simple free app that will how this.

"Just install csip simple and create a profile called "user", not linked to any server. To call another person with the same setup, you just need to know his ip address. Once they have sent it via voice, email, sms or whatsapp or ever (much better) a safer way like textsecure, you simply type "user@15.14.173 et cetera (basically user@ other person's ip) and their Csipsimple will ring. It works and it's the purest form of Internet. "

It doesn't have to be called user by the way.  So John or Mabel will work fine.  You do need the ip address so to call John it would be [hidden email] [hidden email]

You do not need the router to be connected to the internet for this to work by the way.

Cut and paste should work.  So stick the wifi router up high and you should be able to cover a fair range.

Cheerio John



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