Using Wikipedia to add names in other languages

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Using Wikipedia to add names in other languages

Mateusz Konieczny-3
For example:

mapper encounters
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/244082386#map=18/36.62214/101.77352
and wants to add missing name:pl

(s)he opens linked https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xining and changes using
interwiki to https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xining and adds name:pl=Xining

Unfortunately, Wikipedia is licensed under CC-BY-SA what is incompatible with ODBL.

What worse, it may be easily argued that list of names in Wikipedia forms
a database and therefore it should not be imported.

(and no, Wikidata is not better - it includes data from Wikipedia and entire
databases protected by sui generis database right so it is even worse as far as
copyright goes)

Is there any reason why adding names based on Wikipedia would be OK?

If not - is there any method how it may be stopped/limited? Especially with Wikipedia starting to use OSM maps what will encourage new users to add translations of names?

See existing documentation on wiki:

- https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Wikidata#Importing_data_from_Wikidata_into_OSM
- https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Collaboration_with_Wikipedia#Importing_geodata_from_Wikipedia_into_OSM

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Re: Using Wikipedia to add names in other languages

Maurizio Napolitano
> Unfortunately, Wikipedia is licensed under CC-BY-SA what is incompatible
with ODBL.

Finally someone who remembers it

IMHO:
The quick&dirty solution can be to ask the producer the permission to add
the data inserted from wikipedia to openstreetmap with a flag.

On the same time I ask my self how significant is this contribution inside
the entire openstreetmap database.

In a long long way I think that we have to ask to Open Knowledge
International (the producer of the ODbL) and Creative Commons to find a
right way to find a solution to this problem.
Maybe an upgrade of the ODbL can solve some.

What do you think about a discussion between WMF, OSMF, OKFN and CC to
solve the problem is a trasparent way for the community?

my2cents

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Re: Using Wikipedia to add names in other languages

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3


sent from a phone

> On 5. May 2018, at 14:28, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> (and no, Wikidata is not better - it includes data from Wikipedia and entire
> databases protected by sui generis database right so it is even worse as far as
> copyright goes)


I’ve read this several times now, but find it to be an over cautious interpretation of the situation. Wikidata is published in cc0, everyone contributing to it knows it. If some years ago wikimedia’s legal department has analyzed the situation and concluded that they could import facts from wikipedia into a cc0 db, why would we not trust them? Copyright doesn’t protect facts, ie ccbysa does so neither. Wikidata is containing only facts. WRT to database rights in the EU, I don’t think there can be a case between wikidata and wikipedia, and even if there was I am confident it would be settled.

Cheers,
Martin


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Re: Using Wikipedia to add names in other languages

Mateusz Konieczny-3

5. May 2018 14:55 by [hidden email]:

sent from a phone
On 5. May 2018, at 14:28, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:

(and no, Wikidata is not better - it includes data from Wikipedia and entire
databases protected by sui generis database right so it is even worse as far as
copyright goes)


I’ve read this several times now, but find it to be an over cautious interpretation of the situation. Wikidata is published in cc0, everyone contributing to it knows it. If some years ago wikimedia’s legal department has analyzed the situation and concluded that they could import facts from wikipedia into a cc0 db, why would we not trust them?


sui generis database right is not existing in USA. It is existing in EU, including UK.


Also, AFAIK OSM and Wikipedia has a bit different approach to how copyright is interpreted


Copyright doesn’t protect facts, ie ccbysa does so neither. Wikidata is containing only facts.


OSM also contains only facts. It does not mean that OSM may be freely copied and used without restrictions.

 

WRT to database rights in the EU, I don’t think there can be a case between wikidata and wikipedia, and even if there was I am confident it would be settled.


So - is it OK to:

- copy location data from Google  into a Wikipedia article

 (considered OK and encouraged on Wikipedia)

- import this location data to Wikidata (routinely done by bots)

- and then import this data into OSM


How copying location data[1] from Google Maps (or other source) via Wikipedia and Wikidata differs

from direct copying from Google maps from legal point of view?


[1] of lets say museums


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Re: Using Wikipedia to add names in other languages

Christoph Hormann-2
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3

Arguing about licenses and their compatibility does not really help in
this context since having formally compatible license (or the related
argument that Wikidata is CC0 and therefore by definition the license
is a non-issue) would not help.  We have just seen in

https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/karitotp/diary/43824

that trusting third parties with assurances that data they don't
actually own is all right to use does not work.  So even if the
Wikimedia foundation would specifically allow OSM to use certain
information from Wikipedia without restrictions this is not really
helpful since what they certainly will never do is give assurances that
information in Wikipedia or Wikidata is free of third party rights.

From the perspective of OSM things would actually be quite simple:  We
are based on original research and on-the-ground verifiable
information.  Any data that is not gathered through original research
by the mapper should only be used if specific permission is given by
whoever did the original research generating that data.  That
specifically excludes Wikipedia since Wikipedia is specifically not
meant for collecting original research.

Sticking to this principle would serve both in avoiding legal troubles
and maintaining high quality of data in OSM.  Unfortunately not
everyone agrees to that.

The Contributor Terms:

https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licence/Contributor_Terms

are somewhat solomonic in that regard - The contributors agree to only
contribute data that is legally sound as far as they know - but nothing
requires you to refrain from burying your head in the sand so to speak.

Practically we have already seen lots of systematic copying of name tags
from Wikipedia/Wikidata to OSM in the past years.  You can see this
from correlations in the naming patterns (including errors) and from
the editing patterns (mappers adding names in many different languages
they cannot possibly all have first hand information about).

IMO the quality and data maintainance problems resulting from this are
much more pressing than the legal issues.

--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: Using Wikipedia to add names in other languages

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3


sent from a phone

On 5. May 2018, at 15:39, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:

sui generis database right is not existing in USA. It is existing in EU, including UK.



right. And the thing you have potentially to fear is that the owner of the db sues you. If this is both wikimedia (for WP and WD) and they have released WD as cc0, what is the problem you fear?



Copyright doesn’t protect facts, ie ccbysa does so neither. Wikidata is containing only facts.


OSM also contains only facts. It does not mean that OSM may be freely copied and used without restrictions.



first I don’t agree that osm contains only facts, because there is the geometric aspect (we „draw“)
second we don’t publish under cc0 like wikidata and we refer to contract law and sui generis db rights.


WRT to database rights in the EU, I don’t think there can be a case between wikidata and wikipedia, and even if there was I am confident it would be settled.


So - is it OK to:

- copy location data from Google  into a Wikipedia article


I don’t know, for WP it is apparently OK, and also Google didn’t sue them so far.


- import this location data to Wikidata (routinely done by bots)


probably they think it is a fact where something is, as this is only about positions (nodes) and not about shapes (geometric representation), they could be right, again Google seems to think it is ok (and is using Wikidata in their database). Obviously the answer to your first question must be yes in order to be able to answer yes here.


- and then import this data into OSM



if the data in Wikidata is cc0, it is probably ok. 



How copying location data[1] from Google Maps (or other source) via Wikipedia and Wikidata differs

from direct copying from Google maps from legal point of view?



if you copy from Google, it is against their terms. If you copy from a cc0 dataset like wikidata and someone upstream sues you for doing it, you could refer them to Wikidata. Are you sure wikimedia doesn’t have an agreement with google?

Bing gave us a permission to derive features from their aerial imagery. Would any other company have the right to use the Bing pictures for the same scope? Maybe not (I’m not familiar with Bing terms).

cheers,
Martin

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Re: Using Wikipedia to add names in other languages

Mateusz Konieczny-3

5. May 2018 16:14 by [hidden email]:

On 5. May 2018, at 15:39, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:

sui generis database right is not existing in USA. It is existing in EU, including UK.



right. And the thing you have potentially to fear is that the owner of the db sues you. If this is both wikimedia (for WP and WD) and they have released WD as cc0, what is the problem you fear?


For start, for OSM mapping we are supposed to use data compatible with ODBL,

rather than "everything, no matter copyright, as long as we think that we will not be sued".


Additionally, people imported into WD and WP data (and entire databases)

not owned by Wikimedia Foundation, so owners of this data may disagree with WMF.


As I understand situation, there are some cases where data is CC0 in USA jurisdiction

(so for WP and WD) and is still incompatible with ODBL (sui generis database right is the

simplest case).


Just because Wikidata has "CC0" in footer it does not mean that any data imported into Wikidata

magically becomes CC0 without any restrictions.


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Re: Using Wikipedia to add names in other languages

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
5. May 2018 16:14 by [hidden email]:

On 5. May 2018, at 15:39, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:

How copying location data[1] from Google Maps (or other source) via Wikipedia and Wikidata differs

from direct copying from Google maps from legal point of view?



if you copy from Google, it is against their terms. If you copy from a cc0 dataset like wikidata and someone upstream sues you for doing it, you could refer them to Wikidata.


Are you sure? CC0 has "Affirmer offers the Work as-is and makes no representations or

warranties of any kind concerning the Work, express, implied, statutory or otherwise,

including (...) non infringement"


https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/legalcode


And "refer them to Wikidata" would not change that we would need redact such data,

possibly destroying correct and valuable edits

(see https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/karitotp/diary/43824 for a small-scale issue).


Are you sure wikimedia doesn’t have an agreement with google?

I have no idea, I would be happy to discover that my worries are unfounded.

But I have encountered no evidence whatsoever about any methods allowing use to import
data from Google Maps via Wikidata (and I would be surprised to discover one)

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Re: Using Wikipedia to add names in other languages

Michael Kugelmann
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3
On 05.05.2018 at 17:08 Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
>
> For start, for OSM mapping we are supposed to use data compatible with
> ODBL,
>
> rather than "everything, no matter copyright, as long as we think that
> we will not be sued".
>
And there is nothing to add to this statement! We have always been a
project that was very carefull about it's data sources. This was always
one of the strengthes of the project, I request that this stays the same.


Just my 2 cents,
Michael.


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Re: Using Wikipedia to add names in other languages

Yves


Le 7 mai 2018 07:19:24 GMT+02:00, Michael Kugelmann <[hidden email]> a écrit :

>On 05.05.2018 at 17:08 Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
>>
>> For start, for OSM mapping we are supposed to use data compatible
>with
>> ODBL,
>>
>> rather than "everything, no matter copyright, as long as we think
>that
>> we will not be sued".
>>
>And there is nothing to add to this statement! We have always been a
>project that was very carefull about it's data sources. This was always
>
>one of the strengthes of the project, I request that this stays the
>same.
>

It doesn't harm to add my strong agreement here.
Yves

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Re: Using Wikipedia to add names in other languages

SimonPoole
In reply to this post by Christoph Hormann-2


Am 05.05.2018 um 15:58 schrieb Christoph Hormann:
> Arguing about licenses and their compatibility does not really help in
> this context since having formally compatible license (or the related
> argument that Wikidata is CC0 and therefore by definition the license
> is a non-issue) would not help.  We have just seen in
....
As has been pointed out many many many times an entity providing content
on CC0 terms does not make any representations that there are no third
party rights in the material, just that the entity in question does not
claim any rights (see the text 
https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/legalcode).

If the content was originally created by the entity in its entirety,CC0
is a useful licence, otherwise .....


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Re: Using Wikipedia to add names in other languages

SimonPoole
In reply to this post by Maurizio Napolitano


Am 05.05.2018 um 14:51 schrieb Maurizio Napolitano:

>> Unfortunately, Wikipedia is licensed under CC-BY-SA what is incompatible
> with ODBL.
>
> Finally someone who remembers it
>
> IMHO:
> The quick&dirty solution can be to ask the producer the permission to add
> the data inserted from wikipedia to openstreetmap with a flag.
>
> On the same time I ask my self how significant is this contribution inside
> the entire openstreetmap database.
>
> In a long long way I think that we have to ask to Open Knowledge
> International (the producer of the ODbL) and Creative Commons to find a
> right way to find a solution to this problem.
> Maybe an upgrade of the ODbL can solve some.
>
> What do you think about a discussion between WMF, OSMF, OKFN and CC to
> solve the problem is a trasparent way for the community?
CC BY and CC BY-SA are not compatible with the ODbL because the ODbL is
a fairly lenient licence that allows ways of re-using content that
neither CC BY or CC BY-SA support.

To be compatible with either of the CC licences we would have to
-downgrade- the ODbL and not allow numerous common use cases (for
example publishing maps derived from OSM on any terms the map creator
wants to with essentially just an attribution requirement). I'm sorry,
but that route is a non-starter.

And given that the relevant restrictions in the CC licences were
reaffirmed  (and extended) with the 4.0 versions, it seems rather
unlikely that CC will do anything about it from their side or that their
stakeholders would support such change. In any case it would require a
licence change by the WMF to any such compatible licence too, which
again is unlikely to happen.

Not to mention that regardless of licence fiddling, there is still the
question of the provenance of the contents in WP and third party rights
that always makes use in OSM questionable.

In summary: I doubt that anybody is willing to embark on this specific
fool's errand.

Simon
>
> my2cents
>



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Re: Using Wikipedia to add names in other languages

sabas88
In reply to this post by SimonPoole
Dear all,
on this point I wanted to link a new discussion that has been started about the 'licensing' issues of Wikidata elements.


Ciao,
Stefano

Il giorno lun 7 mag 2018 alle ore 10:50 Simon Poole <[hidden email]> ha scritto:


Am 05.05.2018 um 15:58 schrieb Christoph Hormann:
> Arguing about licenses and their compatibility does not really help in
> this context since having formally compatible license (or the related
> argument that Wikidata is CC0 and therefore by definition the license
> is a non-issue) would not help.  We have just seen in
....
As has been pointed out many many many times an entity providing content
on CC0 terms does not make any representations that there are no third
party rights in the material, just that the entity in question does not
claim any rights (see the text 
https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/legalcode).

If the content was originally created by the entity in its entirety,CC0
is a useful licence, otherwise .....

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