Vandalis on access page

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Vandalis on access page

715371
Hi,

I want to mention that user ulamm is not just doing vandalism on the
osm-db, but also on the wiki.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key%3Aaccess&diff=1076542&oldid=1076413

He is changing the information for Germany, where this is not true so
far as I know.

Now he is claiming this in discussions.

Related to sidewalk-tagging he is doing the same: modify and than claim
his proposal was right.

You can also find suspicious modifications on [1], [2], [3], [4] and [5].

Please bann him.

Cheers,
Tobias

[1]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Ahighway%3Dcycleway&diff=1078542&oldid=1056509
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Tag:highway%3Dcycleway
[3]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:De:Description:Cycleway:Track
[4]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attributierung_von_Stra%C3%9Fen_in_Deutschland
[5]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Bicycle/Radverkehrsanlagen_kartieren

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Re: Vandalis on access page

Hubert87
Hey,

could someone remind me on how bicycle=use_sidepath is supposed to be used. E.g. Always on highway=road if a compulsory cycle way is present or only when this cycle way is tagged as a separate OSM-way.

Best Regard
Hubert

> -----Original Message-----
> From: 715371 [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Samstag, 4. Oktober 2014 20:05
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Tagging] Vandalis on access page
>
> Hi,
>
> I want to mention that user ulamm is not just doing vandalism on the
> osm-db, but also on the wiki.
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key%3Aaccess&diff=1076
> 542&oldid=1076413
>
> He is changing the information for Germany, where this is not true so
> far as I know.
>
> Now he is claiming this in discussions.
>
> Related to sidewalk-tagging he is doing the same: modify and than claim
> his proposal was right.
>
> You can also find suspicious modifications on [1], [2], [3], [4] and
> [5].
>
> Please bann him.
>
> Cheers,
> Tobias
>
> [1]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Ahighway%3Dcyclew
> ay&diff=1078542&oldid=1056509
> [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Tag:highway%3Dcycleway
> [3]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:De:Description:Cycleway:Tr
> ack
> [4]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attributierung_von_Stra%C3%9Fen_in_
> Deutschland
> [5]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Bicycle/Radverkehrsanlagen_karti
> eren
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


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Re: Vandalis on access page

Jo-2
In reply to this post by 715371
Only when the cycleway is drawn as separate way.

Jo

2014-10-07 23:20 GMT+02:00 Hubert <[hidden email]>:
Hey,

could someone remind me on how bicycle=use_sidepath is supposed to be used. E.g. Always on highway=road if a compulsory cycle way is present or only when this cycle way is tagged as a separate OSM-way.

Best Regard
Hubert

> -----Original Message-----
> From: 715371 [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Samstag, 4. Oktober 2014 20:05
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Tagging] Vandalis on access page
>
> Hi,
>
> I want to mention that user ulamm is not just doing vandalism on the
> osm-db, but also on the wiki.
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key%3Aaccess&diff=1076
> 542&oldid=1076413
>
> He is changing the information for Germany, where this is not true so
> far as I know.
>
> Now he is claiming this in discussions.
>
> Related to sidewalk-tagging he is doing the same: modify and than claim
> his proposal was right.
>
> You can also find suspicious modifications on [1], [2], [3], [4] and
> [5].
>
> Please bann him.
>
> Cheers,
> Tobias
>
> [1]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Ahighway%3Dcyclew
> ay&diff=1078542&oldid=1056509
> [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Tag:highway%3Dcycleway
> [3]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:De:Description:Cycleway:Tr
> ack
> [4]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attributierung_von_Stra%C3%9Fen_in_
> Deutschland
> [5]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Bicycle/Radverkehrsanlagen_karti
> eren
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


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Re: Vandalis on access page

Marc Gemis
In reply to this post by 715371
more details and requirements for the correct use of the can be found on this wiki page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:bicycle%3Duse_sidepath

regards

m

On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Hubert <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey,

could someone remind me on how bicycle=use_sidepath is supposed to be used. E.g. Always on highway=road if a compulsory cycle way is present or only when this cycle way is tagged as a separate OSM-way.

Best Regard
Hubert

> -----Original Message-----
> From: 715371 [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Samstag, 4. Oktober 2014 20:05
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Tagging] Vandalis on access page
>
> Hi,
>
> I want to mention that user ulamm is not just doing vandalism on the
> osm-db, but also on the wiki.
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key%3Aaccess&diff=1076
> 542&oldid=1076413
>
> He is changing the information for Germany, where this is not true so
> far as I know.
>
> Now he is claiming this in discussions.
>
> Related to sidewalk-tagging he is doing the same: modify and than claim
> his proposal was right.
>
> You can also find suspicious modifications on [1], [2], [3], [4] and
> [5].
>
> Please bann him.
>
> Cheers,
> Tobias
>
> [1]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Ahighway%3Dcyclew
> ay&diff=1078542&oldid=1056509
> [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Tag:highway%3Dcycleway
> [3]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:De:Description:Cycleway:Tr
> ack
> [4]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attributierung_von_Stra%C3%9Fen_in_
> Deutschland
> [5]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Bicycle/Radverkehrsanlagen_karti
> eren
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


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Re: Vandalis on access page

Hubert87
In reply to this post by 715371

Thanks for the help and the links. That was my opinion, too.

I asked, because the use is not clear by just reading the definition and not looking at the examples.

highway=road + cycleway=track + bicycle=use_sidepath together, without an additional highway=cycleway OSMWay (for example) seem correct by definition.

I can understand the confusion. Should the use be made more prominent in the description of the value?

 

Yours

Hubert


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Re: Vandalis on access page

Pee Wee
In reply to this post by 715371
If I understand correctly you say it would be better if the wiki stated that the compulsory cycleway is drawn as a separte way. I think you are right. I could changed that in the wiki. Unfortunately the user Ulamm has changed the wiki (for the worse in my opinion) so I'll send him an email before I make any changes.

Cheers

PeeWee32

2014-10-08 12:34 GMT+02:00 Hubert <[hidden email]>:

Thanks for the help and the links. That was my opinion, too.

I asked, because the use is not clear by just reading the definition and not looking at the examples.

highway=road + cycleway=track + bicycle=use_sidepath together, without an additional highway=cycleway OSMWay (for example) seem correct by definition.

I can understand the confusion. Should the use be made more prominent in the description of the value?

 

Yours

Hubert


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Re: Vandalis on access page

Hubert87

Thanks a lot, and yes You understood me correctly.

 

Regards

Hubert

 

From: Pee Wee [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Mittwoch, 8. Oktober 2014 12:48
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Vandalis on access page

 

If I understand correctly you say it would be better if the wiki stated that the compulsory cycleway is drawn as a separte way. I think you are right. I could changed that in the wiki. Unfortunately the user Ulamm has changed the wiki (for the worse in my opinion) so I'll send him an email before I make any changes.

Cheers

 

PeeWee32

 

2014-10-08 12:34 GMT+02:00 Hubert <[hidden email]>:

Thanks for the help and the links. That was my opinion, too.

I asked, because the use is not clear by just reading the definition and not looking at the examples.

highway=road + cycleway=track + bicycle=use_sidepath together, without an additional highway=cycleway OSMWay (for example) seem correct by definition.

I can understand the confusion. Should the use be made more prominent in the description of the value?

 

Yours

Hubert


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Re: Vandalis on access page

715371
In reply to this post by Pee Wee
Hi,

May be you could link to cycleway:mandatory, too. Which would give a
reference to the analog usage if there is cycleway=* used on the road.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:cycleway

But I do not know whether there is a proposition page for
cycleway:mandatory. So maybe this tag should be proposed before.

Cheers
Tobias

Am 08.10.2014 um 12:48 schrieb Pee Wee:

> If I understand correctly you say it would be better if the wiki stated
> that the compulsory cycleway is drawn as a separte way. I think you are
> right. I could changed that in the wiki. Unfortunately the user Ulamm has
> changed the wiki (for the worse in my opinion) so I'll send him an email
> before I make any changes.
>
> Cheers
>
> PeeWee32
>
> 2014-10-08 12:34 GMT+02:00 Hubert <[hidden email]>:
>
>> Thanks for the help and the links. That was my opinion, too.
>>
>> I asked, because the use is not clear by just reading the definition and
>> not looking at the examples.
>>
>> highway=road + cycleway=track + bicycle=use_sidepath together, without an
>> additional highway=cycleway OSMWay (for example) seem correct by definition.
>>
>> I can understand the confusion. Should the use be made more prominent in
>> the description of the value?
>>
>>
>>
>> Yours
>>
>> Hubert
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tagging mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>

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Re: Vandalis on access page

Mateusz Konieczny-2
In reply to this post by Pee Wee
It is perfectly fine to revert somebody. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:BOLD,_revert,_discuss_cycle

2014-10-08 12:48 GMT+02:00 Pee Wee <[hidden email]>:
If I understand correctly you say it would be better if the wiki stated that the compulsory cycleway is drawn as a separte way. I think you are right. I could changed that in the wiki. Unfortunately the user Ulamm has changed the wiki (for the worse in my opinion) so I'll send him an email before I make any changes.

Cheers

PeeWee32

2014-10-08 12:34 GMT+02:00 Hubert <[hidden email]>:

Thanks for the help and the links. That was my opinion, too.

I asked, because the use is not clear by just reading the definition and not looking at the examples.

highway=road + cycleway=track + bicycle=use_sidepath together, without an additional highway=cycleway OSMWay (for example) seem correct by definition.

I can understand the confusion. Should the use be made more prominent in the description of the value?

 

Yours

Hubert


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Re: Vandalis on access page

Pee Wee
I''ll wait till the edit war is over before I make any changes.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:bicycle%3Duse_sidepath&action=history

Apparently it is very difficult to discuss prior to making changes.

Cheers
PeeWee32

2014-10-08 14:18 GMT+02:00 Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]>:
It is perfectly fine to revert somebody. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:BOLD,_revert,_discuss_cycle

2014-10-08 12:48 GMT+02:00 Pee Wee <[hidden email]>:
If I understand correctly you say it would be better if the wiki stated that the compulsory cycleway is drawn as a separte way. I think you are right. I could changed that in the wiki. Unfortunately the user Ulamm has changed the wiki (for the worse in my opinion) so I'll send him an email before I make any changes.

Cheers

PeeWee32

2014-10-08 12:34 GMT+02:00 Hubert <[hidden email]>:

Thanks for the help and the links. That was my opinion, too.

I asked, because the use is not clear by just reading the definition and not looking at the examples.

highway=road + cycleway=track + bicycle=use_sidepath together, without an additional highway=cycleway OSMWay (for example) seem correct by definition.

I can understand the confusion. Should the use be made more prominent in the description of the value?

 

Yours

Hubert


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Re: Vandalis on access page

Pee Wee
In reply to this post by 715371
Well... here's my experience with user Ulamm. He sure has taken away part of the fun it was contributing to this project.

I've noticed he made some changes to the use_sidepath wiki. I asked him in a private mail for the reason of the changes since they did not make sense to me nor was I aware of some proposal or a discussion on the tagging mailinglist. His changes were reverted by Mateusz but Ulamm changed the wiki almost instantly. Ulamm could not (and still can not) give me any reference to a discussion or whatever that would justify the changes he made. In the private mail it was very clear to me that Ulamm wanted to discuss with me why his change was good for OSM. I instead wanted to make clear to him that he should get consensus first and after that change the wiki.
For this reason I decided to continue on the TALK page instead of private mail.  You can read that in  Talk page from "bicycle=yes everywhere"

Apart from that fact that there is no consensus on the change he made I also pointed him to the wiki page on "tag for routing/Access restrictions" with which his change conflicts.  He now states that it does not conflict because those the road types under discussion are excluded from this wiki.  That was new to me so I was surprised. I found out that this wiki was also changed by Ulamm by adding a paragraph by the name of "Special feature: Roadside cycletracks".  So Ulamm seems to change one wiki and justifies  with another wiki he has just changed.

My impression is that he does not want to reach consensus but just changes wiki pages to his liking. IMHO this is a very bad development undermining the wiki pages and the way we should should reach agreement in OSM.

I am wondering what your opinion is on this.

Cheers PeeWee32

PS :
History on use_sidepath wiki
History Access page





2014-10-04 20:04 GMT+02:00 715371 <[hidden email]>:
Hi,

I want to mention that user ulamm is not just doing vandalism on the
osm-db, but also on the wiki.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key%3Aaccess&diff=1076542&oldid=1076413

He is changing the information for Germany, where this is not true so
far as I know.

Now he is claiming this in discussions.

Related to sidewalk-tagging he is doing the same: modify and than claim
his proposal was right.

You can also find suspicious modifications on [1], [2], [3], [4] and [5].

Please bann him.

Cheers,
Tobias

[1]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Ahighway%3Dcycleway&diff=1078542&oldid=1056509
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Tag:highway%3Dcycleway
[3]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:De:Description:Cycleway:Track
[4]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attributierung_von_Stra%C3%9Fen_in_Deutschland
[5]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Bicycle/Radverkehrsanlagen_kartieren

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Re: Vandalis on access page

fly high
+10

It is frustrating and I only rarely change the wiki.

I always try to be polite and get into contact but only once. If there
is no real reaction and only more pages are changed or directly changed
after the revert, I would revert them all immediately as it is a problem
if wrong/undiscussed changes are spread.

cu fly

Am 21.10.2014 18:36, schrieb Pee Wee:

> Well... here's my experience with user Ulamm. He sure has taken away
> part of the fun it was contributing to this project.
>
> I've noticed he made some changes to the use_sidepath
> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:bicycle%3Duse_sidepath> wiki. I
> asked him in a private mail for the reason of the changes since they did
> not make sense to me nor was I aware of some proposal or a discussion on
> the tagging mailinglist. His changes were reverted by Mateusz but Ulamm
> changed the wiki almost instantly. Ulamm could not (and still can not)
> give me any reference to a discussion or whatever that would justify the
> changes he made. In the private mail it was very clear to me that Ulamm
> wanted to discuss with me why his change was good for OSM. I instead
> wanted to make clear to him that he should get consensus first and after
> that change the wiki.
> For this reason I decided to continue on the TALK page instead of
> private mail.  You can read that in  Talk
> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:bicycle%3Duse_sidepath>page
> from "bicycle=yes everywhere"
>
> Apart from that fact that there is no consensus on the change he made I
> also pointed him to the wiki page on "tag for routing/Access
> restrictions
> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing/Access-Restrictions>"
> with which his change conflicts.  He now states that it does not
> conflict because those the road types under discussion are excluded from
> this wiki.  That was new to me so I was surprised. I found out that this
> wiki was also changed by Ulamm by adding a paragraph by the name of
> "Special feature: Roadside cycletracks".  So Ulamm seems to change one
> wiki and justifies  with another wiki he has just changed.
>
> My impression is that he does not want to reach consensus but just
> changes wiki pages to his liking. IMHO this is a very bad development
> undermining the wiki pages and the way we should should reach agreement
> in OSM.
>
> I am wondering what your opinion is on this.
>
> Cheers PeeWee32
>
> PS :
> History on use_sidepath wiki
> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:bicycle%3Duse_sidepath&action=history>
> History Access page
> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=OSM_tags_for_routing/Access-Restrictions&action=history>
>
>
>
>
>
> 2014-10-04 20:04 GMT+02:00 715371 <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>>:
>
>     Hi,
>
>     I want to mention that user ulamm is not just doing vandalism on the
>     osm-db, but also on the wiki.
>
>     https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key%3Aaccess&diff=1076542&oldid=1076413
>
>     He is changing the information for Germany, where this is not true so
>     far as I know.
>
>     Now he is claiming this in discussions.
>
>     Related to sidewalk-tagging he is doing the same: modify and than claim
>     his proposal was right.
>
>     You can also find suspicious modifications on [1], [2], [3], [4] and
>     [5].
>
>     Please bann him.
>
>     Cheers,
>     Tobias
>
>     [1]
>     https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Ahighway%3Dcycleway&diff=1078542&oldid=1056509
>     [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Tag:highway%3Dcycleway
>     [3]
>     https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:De:Description:Cycleway:Track
>     [4]
>     https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attributierung_von_Stra%C3%9Fen_in_Deutschland
>     [5]
>     https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Bicycle/Radverkehrsanlagen_kartieren



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Re: Vandalis on access page

dieterdreist

2014-10-21 18:52 GMT+02:00 fly <[hidden email]>:
it is a problem
if wrong/undiscussed changes are spread.


while I agree, I'd like to point out that this is not an isolated problem with a single user, it is systematically happening all the time. I believe that the overwhelming majority (if not all) of the wiki edits are done in good faith and with the intent to improve the documentation*, but despite this, many tags slowly move in their meaning (or better, the definition in the wiki slowly changes, the tagged objects in the db typically don't adjust automagically). Often these changes are not happening by changing what is already written but by amending the definition or restricting the suggested use case (e.g. "but if A or C and not D then you should not use this tag but tag B" or "this tag can also be used for E"). Sometimes changes are justified with differing tag definitions from "translated" pages (e.g. "adjust definition to German wiki page").

Cheers,
Martin


* thing is, that different people see/interpret tags differently, and even if trying to be "neutral" it is practically impossible to ignore your own view/interpretation

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Re: Vandalis on access page

Hubert87
In reply to this post by 715371
Pre up: I have worked with him on the soft_lane proposal - results pending.
I think his intentions are good and that he just takes the "be bold" part of
the wiki too seriously, or the changes he makes are too large.
That said, I believe that talking to others is an important part of a
Community Project like OSM. If there are people that don't see that it will
upset others.

Also, FYI, I have updated the german pages on highway=cycleway und
cycleway=* (track template page) concerning the use of cw=use_sidepath as
defined prior (7.10 and 8.10). I hope this last a bit.

Regards Hubert


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Re: Vandalis on access page

Pee Wee
In reply to this post by 715371
Thanks all for your reactions. I also think that the most changes made to wiki are made in good faith and with good intentions and that is to improve OSM. This even goes for Ulamm. He also wants to improve OSM  but it is just the way he does this that gets me irritated.  Most of us (I guess) do this after some sort of agreement in a part of the community. The impression I get from Ulamm is that he is so convinced of his own opinion that he sees this is a justification to changes all wiki's that claim differently.  When MasiMaster and I were convinced OSM needed a tag like use_sidepath we followed the proposal proces. Time consuming indeed but I think with a better result then just changing wiki pages and upsetting people that did not understand why. It kind of surprises me that Ulamm has something to do with the soft_lane proposal.

The other thing with the way Ulamm acts is that I now am a lot more sceptical towards OSM wiki pages. I don't know that many people that do editing but if I see his name as one of the editors then it makes me reserved.On top of that it is time consuming. Call me naive but I usually believe wiki pages (unless of coarse I read something that conflicts with my common sense ;-) ) Checking credibility of wiki pages is not really my hobby. I'd rather do some mapping.

@ Hubert. Not sure which pages you refer to. I thought it was this one but you do not seem the person that changed it.

Cheers
PeeWee32





2014-10-21 22:36 GMT+02:00 Hubert <[hidden email]>:
Pre up: I have worked with him on the soft_lane proposal - results pending.
I think his intentions are good and that he just takes the "be bold" part of
the wiki too seriously, or the changes he makes are too large.
That said, I believe that talking to others is an important part of a
Community Project like OSM. If there are people that don't see that it will
upset others.

Also, FYI, I have updated the german pages on highway=cycleway und
cycleway=* (track template page) concerning the use of cw=use_sidepath as
defined prior (7.10 and 8.10). I hope this last a bit.

Regards Hubert


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Re: Vandalis on access page

Hubert87
In reply to this post by 715371
Re: [Tagging] Vandalis on access page

I meant the two pages:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Bicycle/Radverkehrsanlagen_kartieren and

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:De:Description:Cycleway:Track which is linked to

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Key:cycleway

Sorry for the confusion.


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Re: Vandalis on access page

Pee Wee
In reply to this post by 715371
Thanks Hubert

I've changed the use_sidepath wiki so that it is clear that this is about cycleways that are drawn as a separate highway.




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