Vote cheating?

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Vote cheating?

Markus-5
Hi everyone

I've remarked that there are wiki accounts that were only used to
participate in one proposed feature vote (or in multiple votes by the
same user). How can we be sure that these are different users and not
multiple wiki accounts of the same user for cheating in a vote?

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Re: Vote cheating?

James-2
You could also argue the opposite way: Not everyone in OSM edits the wiki, thus probably doesnt have an account, thus to participate, they need to create an account to vote

On Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 7:16 AM Selfish Seahorse, <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi everyone

I've remarked that there are wiki accounts that were only used to
participate in one proposed feature vote (or in multiple votes by the
same user). How can we be sure that these are different users and not
multiple wiki accounts of the same user for cheating in a vote?

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Re: Vote cheating?

Maarten Deen
That is a different matter. This is about the possibility that on person
makes multiple wiki accunts and use those to vote (thereby cheating the
vote).

I think it would be a good thing to check this.

Maarten

On 2018-03-16 12:18, James wrote:

> You could also argue the opposite way: Not everyone in OSM edits the
> wiki, thus probably doesnt have an account, thus to participate, they
> need to create an account to vote
>
> On Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 7:16 AM Selfish Seahorse,
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone
>>
>> I've remarked that there are wiki accounts that were only used to
>> participate in one proposed feature vote (or in multiple votes by
>> the
>> same user). How can we be sure that these are different users and
>> not
>> multiple wiki accounts of the same user for cheating in a vote?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

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Re: Vote cheating?

john whelan-2
But how would you check this?

Thanks John

On 16 March 2018 at 07:31, Maarten Deen <[hidden email]> wrote:
That is a different matter. This is about the possibility that on person makes multiple wiki accunts and use those to vote (thereby cheating the vote).

I think it would be a good thing to check this.

Maarten


On 2018-03-16 12:18, James wrote:
You could also argue the opposite way: Not everyone in OSM edits the
wiki, thus probably doesnt have an account, thus to participate, they
need to create an account to vote

On Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 7:16 AM Selfish Seahorse,
<[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi everyone

I've remarked that there are wiki accounts that were only used to
participate in one proposed feature vote (or in multiple votes by
the
same user). How can we be sure that these are different users and
not
multiple wiki accounts of the same user for cheating in a vote?

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Re: Vote cheating?

Maarten Deen
You probably have to check the logfiles. Not sure if you can do this
from within the wiki.

Maarten

On 2018-03-16 12:38, john whelan wrote:

> But how would you check this?
>
> Thanks John
>
> On 16 March 2018 at 07:31, Maarten Deen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> That is a different matter. This is about the possibility that on
>> person makes multiple wiki accunts and use those to vote (thereby
>> cheating the vote).
>>
>> I think it would be a good thing to check this.
>>
>> Maarten
>>
>> On 2018-03-16 12:18, James wrote:
>> You could also argue the opposite way: Not everyone in OSM edits
>> the
>> wiki, thus probably doesnt have an account, thus to participate,
>> they
>> need to create an account to vote
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 7:16 AM Selfish Seahorse,
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi everyone
>>
>> I've remarked that there are wiki accounts that were only used to
>> participate in one proposed feature vote (or in multiple votes by
>> the
>> same user). How can we be sure that these are different users and
>> not
>> multiple wiki accounts of the same user for cheating in a vote?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk [1]
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk [1]
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
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>
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

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Re: Vote cheating?

ebel
In reply to this post by Markus-5
Well, there are some (incl. me) who think the wiki tag voting isn't
mandatory, and you can just use the regular ad hoc rules for making a tag.

In which case, "cheating" in wiki voting is irrelevant and unimportant. 🙂

On 16/03/18 12:10, Selfish Seahorse wrote:

> Hi everyone
>
> I've remarked that there are wiki accounts that were only used to
> participate in one proposed feature vote (or in multiple votes by the
> same user). How can we be sure that these are different users and not
> multiple wiki accounts of the same user for cheating in a vote?
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>



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Re: Vote cheating?

john whelan-2
In reply to this post by Maarten Deen
> You probably have to check the logfiles. Not sure if you can do this from within the wiki.

Maarten

I'm unable to think of a way to verify this.  The IP address might help but many people sometimes share the same IP address.

Cheerio John

On 16 March 2018 at 07:42, Maarten Deen <[hidden email]> wrote:
You probably have to check the logfiles. Not sure if you can do this from within the wiki.

Maarten


On 2018-03-16 12:38, john whelan wrote:
But how would you check this?

Thanks John

On 16 March 2018 at 07:31, Maarten Deen <[hidden email]> wrote:

That is a different matter. This is about the possibility that on
person makes multiple wiki accunts and use those to vote (thereby
cheating the vote).

I think it would be a good thing to check this.

Maarten

On 2018-03-16 12:18, James wrote:
You could also argue the opposite way: Not everyone in OSM edits
the
wiki, thus probably doesnt have an account, thus to participate,
they
need to create an account to vote

On Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 7:16 AM Selfish Seahorse,
<[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi everyone

I've remarked that there are wiki accounts that were only used to
participate in one proposed feature vote (or in multiple votes by
the
same user). How can we be sure that these are different users and
not
multiple wiki accounts of the same user for cheating in a vote?

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Links:
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Re: Vote cheating?

James-2
IPs can also be spoofed via proxys.

On Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 8:09 AM john whelan, <[hidden email]> wrote:
> You probably have to check the logfiles. Not sure if you can do this from within the wiki.

Maarten

I'm unable to think of a way to verify this.  The IP address might help but many people sometimes share the same IP address.

Cheerio John

On 16 March 2018 at 07:42, Maarten Deen <[hidden email]> wrote:
You probably have to check the logfiles. Not sure if you can do this from within the wiki.

Maarten


On 2018-03-16 12:38, john whelan wrote:
But how would you check this?

Thanks John

On 16 March 2018 at 07:31, Maarten Deen <[hidden email]> wrote:

That is a different matter. This is about the possibility that on
person makes multiple wiki accunts and use those to vote (thereby
cheating the vote).

I think it would be a good thing to check this.

Maarten

On 2018-03-16 12:18, James wrote:
You could also argue the opposite way: Not everyone in OSM edits
the
wiki, thus probably doesnt have an account, thus to participate,
they
need to create an account to vote

On Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 7:16 AM Selfish Seahorse,
<[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi everyone

I've remarked that there are wiki accounts that were only used to
participate in one proposed feature vote (or in multiple votes by
the
same user). How can we be sure that these are different users and
not
multiple wiki accounts of the same user for cheating in a vote?

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Links:
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Re: Vote cheating?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by ebel


2018-03-16 12:52 GMT+01:00 Rory McCann <[hidden email]>:
Well, there are some (incl. me) who think the wiki tag voting isn't
mandatory, and you can just use the regular ad hoc rules for making a tag.

In which case, "cheating" in wiki voting is irrelevant and unimportant. 🙂


I would also see the voting part of wiki proposals much less important than the fact someone writes a proposal (documentation) and integrates the comments from others. Usually a tag voting should pass unless there are too few people interested in it or there is really a big problem with the proposal ;-)

If someone stages sock puppets and you notice it, you can still mark the voting a dubious (I am aware of one proposal, the motorbike friendly, which was contested).

Finally, most important voting is with your feet (using the tag for mapping).

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: Vote cheating?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by john whelan-2


2018-03-16 13:05 GMT+01:00 john whelan <[hidden email]>:
> You probably have to check the logfiles. Not sure if you can do this from within the wiki.

Maarten

I'm unable to think of a way to verify this.  The IP address might help but many people sometimes share the same IP address.


while you can not prove it, you can see abnormalities which are strong indices. Usually, in a wiki voting there is the same bunch of people (more or less, say from the same "pool", but with varying composition depending on the topic), almost all editors with lots of other contributions. If now suddenly a lot of never heard of people create accounts for the wiki and their first (and often only) action is voting for a disputed proposal, then something smells. Even if those were real people, not involved in OSM in any way, but motivated by someone to register and vote in a certain way, it wouldn't change anything IMHO, still invalid votes (not to prove formally, maybe, but could be decided by community consensus).

Cheers,
Martin

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Unify Mapping and wiki accounts? -- WAS: Vote cheating?

Richard Z.
In reply to this post by James-2
On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 11:18:38AM +0000, James wrote:
> You could also argue the opposite way: Not everyone in OSM edits the wiki,
> thus probably doesnt have an account, thus to participate, they need to
> create an account to vote

fundamental decission - maybe osm and osm-wiki accounts should be the same?

I have recent reports from one mapper sending me messages through OSM messaging
that he had trouble setting up a wiki account and commenting on my talk page so
clearly there is some confusion about the accounts and by my estimate only a tiny
minority of mappers could ever have any use for separate mapping and wiki
accounts.

Richard

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Re: Unify Mapping and wiki accounts? -- WAS: Vote cheating?

Andy Townsend
On 18/03/2018 19:45, Richard wrote:
>
> fundamental decission - maybe osm and osm-wiki accounts should be the same?
>

Interestingly, there's recently been a suggestion on OSMF-talk about an
"OSMF-owned engine for social surveys":

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2018-March/005106.html

Best Regards,
Andy


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Re: Unify Mapping and wiki accounts? -- WAS: Vote cheating?

john whelan-2
In reply to this post by Richard Z.
Sounds sensible.

Cheerio John

On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 16:04 Andrew Hain, <[hidden email]> wrote:

Interesting idea. The wiki dates from before OAuth of course, even before the fiddle we implemented for trac and the forum. It must be just about the only internal communication space not using the main accounts.


--

Andrew




From: Richard <[hidden email]>
Sent: 18 March 2018 19:45
To: James
Cc: OpenStreetMap talk mailing list
Subject: [OSM-talk] Unify Mapping and wiki accounts? -- WAS: Vote cheating?
 
On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 11:18:38AM +0000, James wrote:
> You could also argue the opposite way: Not everyone in OSM edits the wiki,
> thus probably doesnt have an account, thus to participate, they need to
> create an account to vote

fundamental decission - maybe osm and osm-wiki accounts should be the same?

I have recent reports from one mapper sending me messages through OSM messaging
that he had trouble setting up a wiki account and commenting on my talk page so
clearly there is some confusion about the accounts and by my estimate only a tiny
minority of mappers could ever have any use for separate mapping and wiki
accounts.

Richard

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Re: Unify Mapping and wiki accounts? -- WAS: Vote cheating?

Michael Kugelmann
In reply to this post by Richard Z.
Am 18.03.2018 um 20:45 schrieb Richard:
> fundamental decission - maybe osm and osm-wiki accounts should be the same?
This had been independent in the very old history. And now you have
conflicts => will not work w/o huge effort...
There had been requests like this 5 years ago or so w/o success. Not
because nobody wanted to implement but because it was not possible.


BR,
Michael.


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Re: Unify Mapping and wiki accounts? -- WAS: Vote cheating?

François Lacombe-2

2018-03-19 0:38 GMT+01:00 Michael Kugelmann <[hidden email]>:
Am 18.03.2018 um 20:45 schrieb Richard:
fundamental decission - maybe osm and osm-wiki accounts should be the same?
This had been independent in the very old history. And now you have conflicts => will not work w/o huge effort...
There had been requests like this 5 years ago or so w/o success. Not because nobody wanted to implement but because it was not possible.

This is a great idea.

Can you sum up what are the technical issues which make it not possible please ?

François

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Re: Unify Mapping and wiki accounts? -- WAS: Vote cheating?

Nicolás Alvarez
El 18 mar. 2018, a la(s) 20:50, François Lacombe <[hidden email]> escribió:


2018-03-19 0:38 GMT+01:00 Michael Kugelmann <[hidden email]>:
Am 18.03.2018 um 20:45 schrieb Richard:
fundamental decission - maybe osm and osm-wiki accounts should be the same?
This had been independent in the very old history. And now you have conflicts => will not work w/o huge effort...
There had been requests like this 5 years ago or so w/o success. Not because nobody wanted to implement but because it was not possible.

This is a great idea.

Can you sum up what are the technical issues which make it not possible please ?

Suppose user 'John' currently has a wiki account called 'JohnW'. That's currently possible, since the accounts are independent. What do you do if you unify the accounts? Does OSM user John get a new wiki account called John? What if that wiki account already exists? Or does he have to manually connect the OSM and Wiki accounts?

What if an OSM user called JohnW also exists (but never used the wiki yet), what wiki account do you create for him if the name JohnW is already taken on the wiki?

Users can rename OSM accounts. What happens if a user has accounts on both OSM and the wiki, with the same name, but changes his user name to "Javiersanp"? That name isn't taken in OSM, but it's taken in the wiki. Does the rename get rejected?

There are different OSM users "nicolas" and "Nicolas". Wiki usernames always have a uppercase first letter, so if accounts get unified, those two different OSM users can't get different wiki accounts. There is a similar problem with the wiki considering " " (space) and "_" (underscore) equivalent, while OSM doesn't.


I would love it if wiki accounts and OSM accounts were unified, but that would need to be done since the start. Now it seems too hard to do it; too many conflicts with existing accounts.

-- 
Nicolás

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Re: Unify Mapping and wiki accounts? -- WAS: Vote cheating?

Matej LieskovskĂ˝-2
Maybe we could use OAuth only to link the accounts - wiki user X is (proven by OAuth) to be OSM contributor Y. Inelegant, but it would make it simpler to identify the active mappers among the wiki accounts. Obviously an opt-in system.

On 19 March 2018 at 08:25, Andrew Hain <[hidden email]> wrote:

You could say that every existing edit is by an “old” account and new ones going forwards are by main site accounts which occasionally have the same name. Perhaps you could link some of the old wiki accounts to the OSM user names where they are known to be the same person.


--

Andrew




From: Nicolás Alvarez <[hidden email]>
Sent: 19 March 2018 04:51
To: osm-talk
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Unify Mapping and wiki accounts? -- WAS: Vote cheating?
 
El 18 mar. 2018, a la(s) 20:50, François Lacombe <[hidden email]> escribió:


2018-03-19 0:38 GMT+01:00 Michael Kugelmann <[hidden email]>:
Am 18.03.2018 um 20:45 schrieb Richard:
fundamental decission - maybe osm and osm-wiki accounts should be the same?
This had been independent in the very old history. And now you have conflicts => will not work w/o huge effort...
There had been requests like this 5 years ago or so w/o success. Not because nobody wanted to implement but because it was not possible.

This is a great idea.

Can you sum up what are the technical issues which make it not possible please ?

Suppose user 'John' currently has a wiki account called 'JohnW'. That's currently possible, since the accounts are independent. What do you do if you unify the accounts? Does OSM user John get a new wiki account called John? What if that wiki account already exists? Or does he have to manually connect the OSM and Wiki accounts?

What if an OSM user called JohnW also exists (but never used the wiki yet), what wiki account do you create for him if the name JohnW is already taken on the wiki?

Users can rename OSM accounts. What happens if a user has accounts on both OSM and the wiki, with the same name, but changes his user name to "Javiersanp"? That name isn't taken in OSM, but it's taken in the wiki. Does the rename get rejected?

There are different OSM users "nicolas" and "Nicolas". Wiki usernames always have a uppercase first letter, so if accounts get unified, those two different OSM users can't get different wiki accounts. There is a similar problem with the wiki considering " " (space) and "_" (underscore) equivalent, while OSM doesn't.


I would love it if wiki accounts and OSM accounts were unified, but that would need to be done since the start. Now it seems too hard to do it; too many conflicts with existing accounts.

-- 
Nicolás

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Re: Unify Mapping and wiki accounts? -- WAS: Vote cheating?

Richard Z.
In reply to this post by Nicolás Alvarez
On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 01:51:54AM -0300, Nicolás Alvarez wrote:

> El 18 mar. 2018, a la(s) 20:50, François Lacombe <[hidden email]> escribió:
>
> >
> > 2018-03-19 0:38 GMT+01:00 Michael Kugelmann <[hidden email]>:
> >>> Am 18.03.2018 um 20:45 schrieb Richard:
> >>> fundamental decission - maybe osm and osm-wiki accounts should be the same?
> >> This had been independent in the very old history. And now you have conflicts => will not work w/o huge effort...
> >> There had been requests like this 5 years ago or so w/o success. Not because nobody wanted to implement but because it was not possible.
> >
> > This is a great idea.
> >
> > Can you sum up what are the technical issues which make it not possible please ?
>
> Suppose user 'John' currently has a wiki account called 'JohnW'. That's currently possible, since the accounts are independent. What do you do if you unify the accounts? Does OSM user John get a new wiki account called John? What if that wiki account already exists? Or does he have to manually connect the OSM and Wiki accounts?
>
> What if an OSM user called JohnW also exists (but never used the wiki yet), what wiki account do you create for him if the name JohnW is already taken on the wiki?

just keep the different names for each project - and link them if user agrees or rather asks
for it (eg for example ask on next login).
There are also users who have 2 or more OSM editing accounts for legitimate reasons and other
corner cases but start with the simple stuff first: That is a new user creates an account
in either place so he should also get an account created in the other place with the same
name. He could later still choose to create many other accounts under other names and
I guess we don't have any policy prohibiting this but most people won't do it without
good reason.

> Users can rename OSM accounts. What happens if a user has accounts on both OSM and the wiki, with the same name, but changes his user name to "Javiersanp"? That name isn't taken in OSM, but it's taken in the wiki. Does the rename get rejected?

should be rejected indeed. Even if it is allowed to have different names in the wiki and OSM
creating fresh confusion like that happens 99% by accident so the user would be helped if
it is rejected and 1% malice so it should be forbidden.

> There are different OSM users "nicolas" and "Nicolas". Wiki usernames always have a uppercase first letter, so if accounts get unified, those two different OSM users can't get different wiki accounts. There is a similar problem with the wiki considering " " (space) and "_" (underscore) equivalent, while OSM doesn't.

keep the old accounts and enforce consistent rules on new ones.

Richard

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Re: Unify Mapping and wiki accounts? -- WAS: Vote cheating?

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 19. Mar 2018, at 23:09, Richard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> He could later still choose to create many other accounts under other names and
> I guess we don't have any policy prohibiting this but most people won't do it without
> good reason.


rather than prohibiting, it’s the opposite, actually the import guidelines advise to use distinct users for imports


cheers,
Martin
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