Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names

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Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names

Matthijs Melissen
Dear all,

Voting is now open for the proposal to unify the names of chain shops
within the UK by renaming them.

Please cast your vote at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Math1985/UK_Shop_Names.
More information can be found on this page as well.

Kind regards,
Matthijs

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Re: Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names

Frederik Ramm
Hi,

On 10/31/2014 11:51 PM, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> Voting is now open for the proposal to unify the names of chain shops
> within the UK by renaming them.

I have the following problem with this:

I do understand the rationale and it is indeed true that it is nicer to
have a unified landscape of names.

However, is this not leading us down a path where we'll have to repeat
such edits time and time again, to fix all the misspellings that have
been introduced in the mean time? And to make another mass change if
chain A is bought out by chain B and the name changes? And make another
mass change if the PR guys of "Best-One" decide that they'd from now on
prefer to be called "BestOne"? And... where does it stop?

Will such a mass edit not make data consumers believe that the shop will
always be B&Q and never B & Q or anything else, and create an
expectation setting that before too long requires of us to make sure our
editors only add the correct spelling (whatever the corporate PR wants
it to be at the moment)?

Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [hidden email]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names

lsces
In reply to this post by Matthijs Melissen
On 31/10/14 22:51, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> Voting is now open for the proposal to unify the names of chain shops
> within the UK by renaming them.
>
> Please cast your vote at
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Math1985/UK_Shop_Names.
> More information can be found on this page as well.

Brantano (UK) Limited shops are all branded 'Brantano Footwear' that is
their shop 'Logo'

On the whole the changes seem logical, but I'd rather they were applied
manually than setting a precedent to allow changes that may not ACTUALLY
apply as some small outlet is being a little economic with the name they
are using ...

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-----------------------------
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names

Matthijs Melissen
In reply to this post by Frederik Ramm
Hi Frederik,

Thank you for your comments.

On 1 Nov 2014 00:49, "Frederik Ramm" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> However, is this not leading us down a path where we'll have to repeat
> such edits time and time again, to fix all the misspellings that have
> been introduced in the mean time?

I don't think it will be necessary to repeat this edit. First, such a
wide-scale edit hasn't been done before, so the current edit basically
corrects 10 years of misspellings. Second, if there is a standard
agreed on by the community, we can document it and will be much easier
for people to decide how to call a shop. Third, there is now much more
software support for standardizing names then there used to be in the
past, like for example name-suggestion-index
(https://github.com/osmlab/name-suggestion-index) which is used by iD
and Vespucci. So I think there won't be that much misspellings
introduced in the future anymore as we have now.

> And to make another mass change if
> chain A is bought out by chain B and the name changes? And make another
> mass change if the PR guys of "Best-One" decide that they'd from now on
> prefer to be called "BestOne"? And... where does it stop?

I think in general, there are two absolute requirements for mechanical
edits. They must not introduce any incorrect data (i.e., they cannot
use heuristic methods), and they must have wide community support. I
think the two examples you mention would likely satisfy both
requirements. We must not carry out mechanical changes that do not
satisfy these requirements.

> Will such a mass edit not make data consumers believe that the shop will
> always be B&Q and never B & Q or anything else, and create an
> expectation setting that before too long requires of us to make sure our
> editors only add the correct spelling (whatever the corporate PR wants
> it to be at the moment)?

If we want machine-readable data, we will need standard names. We can
decide that we don't care about standard names, but in that case,
interpreting the data will be much harder. Of course, we cannot expect
from individual users that they remember the spelling conventions of
all shop names, but for that, software such as name-suggestion-index
will help. Of course, there might still be a small number of incorrect
shops being introduced, but as the number will likely be low and this
proposal defines standardized shop names, they will be much easier to
correct by local mappers.

In any case, it is up to the (UK) community to decide. I feel that
standardizing shop names will increase the usefulness of the data, and
I believe that a mechanical edit is the most effective way to bring
about this change. But we will see what the community thinks.

-- Matthijs

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Re: Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names

Matthijs Melissen
In reply to this post by lsces
On 1 November 2014 01:06, Lester Caine <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Brantano (UK) Limited shops are all branded 'Brantano Footwear' that is
> their shop 'Logo'

We currently have 116 times Brantano and 12 times Brantano Footwear in
the UK. I would argue, apparently like most mappers, the the
'Footwear' in the logo is not part of the title, but a description of
their activities.

> On the whole the changes seem logical, but I'd rather they were applied
> manually than setting a precedent to allow changes that may not ACTUALLY
> apply as some small outlet is being a little economic with the name they
> are using ...

I would guess that's a rather hypothetical situation. Do you have any example?

-- Matthijs

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Re: Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names

lsces
On 01/11/14 01:45, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
>> On the whole the changes seem logical, but I'd rather they were applied
>> > manually than setting a precedent to allow changes that may not ACTUALLY
>> > apply as some small outlet is being a little economic with the name they
>> > are using ...

> I would guess that's a rather hypothetical situation. Do you have any example?

More a case that any attempt to do the job properly' and create proper
relational data by using any table of 'valid' data and only allowing a
reference to that table to be used has always been frowned upon. If we
are going to 'dictate' what is acceptable content it should be managed
properly rather than blindly re-writing tags.

I'm not saying that the changes are wrong ... just that this is not the
right method to get things done.

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-----------------------------
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names

Ed Loach-2
In reply to this post by Matthijs Melissen

> On 1 November 2014 01:06, Lester Caine <[hidden email]>

> wrote:

> > Brantano (UK) Limited shops are all branded 'Brantano Footwear'

> that is

> > their shop 'Logo'

 

Matthijs:

> We currently have 116 times Brantano and 12 times Brantano

> Footwear in

> the UK. I would argue, apparently like most mappers, the the

> 'Footwear' in the logo is not part of the title, but a description of

> their activities.

 

The logo is the symbol at the top, the shop name is Brantano Footwear, the operator is Brantano (UK) Limited. This is (was) the shop sign at the one I mapped (as Brantano Footwear, as that is the name on the sign):

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.9411882,1.2588319,3a,15y,222.14h,92.11t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sp87biBi-D33C1-NHe_jULw!2e0

 

I’m surprised I haven’t also mapped this one:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.892658,0.8917593,3a,15y,244.38h,92.28t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sozacGrQTk-TQHJxT3s2dxQ!2e0

in Colchester, as I think I bought my shoes there. But thinking more about it I bought the shoes in 2004 and didn’t start mapping until 2008.

 

Ed


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Re: Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names

Colin Smale
In reply to this post by lsces

To paraphrase a well-known saying: Quality is in the eyes of the consumer.

How long do you think we can survive with this policy of refusing to acknowledge that there is such a thing as good data and bad data? Interpretation of the definition of the name tag (and many others) is incredibly subjective. Abbreviations? Ampersands? Including or excluding suffix type information such as "and Sons Ltd"? Capitalisation? Spacing? The list is endless....

As an architect I can only applaud Matthijs' initiative towards some level of normalisation. If there are objections to this particular method, let's have some alternatives out on the table. The fact that this discussion is taking so much time and energy would seem to confirm that we have so far failed to address the data quality issue, which starts with a definition of a norm - even if it is a woolly one if that's what is called for. Once we have a norm, we measure our data against that norm, and take appropriate steps to improve it.

If the norm is "anything goes", then there should be no discussion, right?

Colin

 

On 2014-11-01 09:15, Lester Caine wrote:

On 01/11/14 01:45, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
On the whole the changes seem logical, but I'd rather they were applied
manually than setting a precedent to allow changes that may not ACTUALLY apply as some small outlet is being a little economic with the name they are using ...
I would guess that's a rather hypothetical situation. Do you have any example?
More a case that any attempt to do the job properly' and create proper
relational data by using any table of 'valid' data and only allowing a
reference to that table to be used has always been frowned upon. If we
are going to 'dictate' what is acceptable content it should be managed
properly rather than blindly re-writing tags.

I'm not saying that the changes are wrong ... just that this is not the
right method to get things done.

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Re: Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names

sdoerr
In reply to this post by Ed Loach-2
On 01/11/2014 09:15, Ed Loach wrote:

> On 1 November 2014 01:06, Lester Caine <[hidden email]>

> wrote:

> > Brantano (UK) Limited shops are all branded 'Brantano Footwear'

> that is

> > their shop 'Logo'

 


 

The logo is the symbol at the top, the shop name is Brantano Footwear, the operator is Brantano (UK) Limited. This is (was) the shop sign at the one I mapped (as Brantano Footwear, as that is the name on the sign):

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.9411882,1.2588319,3a,15y,222.14h,92.11t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sp87biBi-D33C1-NHe_jULw!2e0



If you use their online store locator to find the shop, it's listed as BRANTANO HARWICH: http://www.brantano.co.uk/stores/brantano-harwich-shc151. Same pattern for all their shops, I think.

--
Steve



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Re: Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names

John Aldridge
In reply to this post by Matthijs Melissen
On 31/10/2014 22:51, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> Voting is now open for the proposal to unify the names of chain shops
> within the UK by renaming them.

I'm genuinely not sure about this proposal.

Philosophically, I think OSM is a *mapping* project (duh!), and so the
"correct" name is exactly the text which appears on the shop's sign. If
a chain of shops were to be inconsistent in how they are signed (I don't
know how common this is), then so be it. This leads me to the view that
"correcting" shop names (although desirable) can only safely be done by
a ground survey (to check what the sign actually says).

On the other hand, I have no doubt that the overwhelming majority of the
variations this proposal will eliminate are simply mapping errors, and
do not reflect actual signing differences. The "average" quality of the
map will be significantly improved by the automated edit, even if a few
genuine differences are accidentally lost.

--
Cheers,
John

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Re: Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names

Will Phillips
In reply to this post by Ed Loach-2
On 01/11/2014 09:15, Ed Loach wrote:

The logo is the symbol at the top, the shop name is Brantano Footwear, the operator is Brantano (UK) Limited. This is (was) the shop sign at the one I mapped (as Brantano Footwear, as that is the name on the sign):

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.9411882,1.2588319,3a,15y,222.14h,92.11t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sp87biBi-D33C1-NHe_jULw!2e0

 

I’m surprised I haven’t also mapped this one:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.892658,0.8917593,3a,15y,244.38h,92.28t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sozacGrQTk-TQHJxT3s2dxQ!2e0

in Colchester, as I think I bought my shoes there. But thinking more about it I bought the shoes in 2004 and didn’t start mapping until 2008.



Here is a survey photo of mine, which is similar to the ones Ed posted:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/97133921@N03/15494864347/

We should be using the name displayed on the sign, which in the examples above is clearly 'Brantano Footwear'.  I would object to any change to the name tagging in these examples.

Will


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Re: Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names

Richard Fairhurst
In reply to this post by Matthijs Melissen
Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> Voting is now open for the proposal to unify the names of chain
> shops within the UK by renaming them.

No, it isn't.

Mechanical edits stand or fall by their own merits. They cannot be ok-ed by a vote.

From the Automated Edits Code of Conduct: "We do not require or recommend a formal vote, but if there is significant objection to your plan - and even minorities may be significant! - then change it or drop it altogether."

We historically have a low tolerance of mechanical edits and imports in the UK; we prefer to make large-scale changes by hand. That is one of the reasons why the OSM map of the UK is so good. A "come one, come all" vote on the wiki can be trivially gerrymandered into supporting your proposals without any proof of approval by the people who are affected by such a bulk change, i.e. UK mappers.

I am not sure where you got the idea of a "vote" for mechanical edits (Wikipedia? wiki.osm.org tag pages?), but there is no precedent for it in OSM and I would ask you to withdraw it.

Richard

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Re: Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names

Chris Hill-6
+1

On 1 November 2014 12:50:58 GMT, Richard Fairhurst <[hidden email]> wrote:
Matthijs Melissen wrote:
Voting is now open for the proposal to unify the names of chain
shops within the UK by renaming them.

No, it isn't.

Mechanical edits stand or fall by their own merits. They cannot be ok-ed by
a vote.

From the Automated Edits Code of Conduct: "We do not require or recommend a
formal vote, but if there is significant objection to your plan - and even
minorities may be significant! - then change it or drop it altogether."

We historically have a low tolerance of mechanical edits and imports in the
UK; we prefer to make large-scale changes by hand. That is one of the
reasons why the OSM map of the UK is so good. A "come one, come all" vote on
the wiki can be trivially gerrymandered into supporting your proposals
without any proof of approval by the people who are affected by such a bulk
change, i.e. UK mappers.

I am not sure where you got the idea of a "vote" for mechanical edits
(Wikipedia? wiki.osm.org tag pages?), but there is no precedent for it in
OSM and I would ask you to withdraw it.

Richard





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Re: Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names

Dan S
In reply to this post by Richard Fairhurst
2014-11-01 12:50 GMT+00:00 Richard Fairhurst <[hidden email]>:

> Matthijs Melissen wrote:
>> Voting is now open for the proposal to unify the names of chain
>> shops within the UK by renaming them.
>
> No, it isn't.
>
> Mechanical edits stand or fall by their own merits. They cannot be ok-ed by
> a vote.
>
> From the Automated Edits Code of Conduct: "We do not require or recommend a
> formal vote, but if there is significant objection to your plan - and even
> minorities may be significant! - then change it or drop it altogether."
>
> We historically have a low tolerance of mechanical edits and imports in the
> UK; we prefer to make large-scale changes by hand. That is one of the
> reasons why the OSM map of the UK is so good. A "come one, come all" vote on
> the wiki can be trivially gerrymandered into supporting your proposals
> without any proof of approval by the people who are affected by such a bulk
> change, i.e. UK mappers.
>
> I am not sure where you got the idea of a "vote" for mechanical edits
> (Wikipedia? wiki.osm.org tag pages?), but there is no precedent for it in
> OSM and I would ask you to withdraw it.

The "rationale" part of the webpage* seems to me to set out Matthjis'
perspective on why to ask for a vote.

Also, Matthijs sent out an RFC email proposing this whole process - he
got lots of feedback (which he has taken into consideration), but
no-one objected to the voting mechanism. It's not your fault if you
only just noticed this happening, of course, but it's a little rude to
declare "No it isn't" in the sense of shutting him down when he's
proceeding in such an open and consultative manner. Lots of people
have discussed Matthijs' proposed changes in the RFC thread and now
this thread. To me, it seems a good example of consultation.

Cheers
Dan

* https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Math1985/UK_Shop_Names

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Re: Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names

Richard Fairhurst
Dan S wrote:
> Also, Matthijs sent out an RFC email proposing this whole process -
> he got lots of feedback (which he has taken into consideration),
> but no-one objected to the voting mechanism. It's not your fault if
> you only just noticed this happening, of course

Indeed, which I only just did. I think you misunderstand the point.

Whether or not Matthijs renames a given shop from "the Co-operative food" to "The Co-operative Food" is of minimal interest to me. As long as the new name tag is actually what's on the ground (and AFAICT from a distance, several of the suggested changes originally weren't, but feedback has helped this get better) then, yeah, whatever floats your boat. As you say, he has been open with the whole process.

What I am very strongly opposed to is this entirely new idea that mechanical edits can be ok-ed by a wiki vote.

The wiki voting system is trivially subvertible, as has been repeatedly demonstrated. It really doesn't take much imagination to see how, even though Matthijs is proceeding in good faith, this precedent could be misused by others in the future. That is what I am seeking to avoid.

Richard

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Re: Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names

lsces
In reply to this post by Dan S
On 01/11/14 13:36, Dan S wrote:
> Also, Matthijs sent out an RFC email proposing this whole process - he
> got lots of feedback (which he has taken into consideration), but
> no-one objected to the voting mechanism. It's not your fault if you
> only just noticed this happening, of course, but it's a little rude to
> declare "No it isn't" in the sense of shutting him down when he's
> proceeding in such an open and consultative manner. Lots of people
> have discussed Matthijs' proposed changes in the RFC thread and now
> this thread. To me, it seems a good example of consultation.

Many times in the past we have objected to someone's 'automatic'
updating of material. My first objection here is that so many changes
are being lumped into a single 'edit'. As a very minimum each change
should be handled on it's own merit, but as people have been checking
some of the data, the more important question is if a problem as been
confirmed by actual surveying on the ground then WHY hasn't that person
already updated the tag, and then we have a real person in the change
history who HAS checked rather than hundreds of random changes grouped
under the banner  'These were probably wrong!'.

More important! If details HAVE been surveyed and tag in a way that this
change then reverts a correct local input how does one then identify
those changes and prevent editing now and in the future if someone
decides that there are still 'mistakes' that have not been fixed.

The rule is that on the whole tags are always free format text. We would
not refuse an edit just because it's value 'appears' to be a spelling
mistake, and that principle is enshrined in the current guidelines, so
we need editors to ensure that the data they are imputing *IS* correct!
Personally I would prefer that every one of the identified 'problems'
resulted in a message to the original editor asking them to check rather
than blindly making an executive decision that something has to be wrong :(

Yes we want consistent data, but that is not achieved by blindly making
it consistent ...

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-----------------------------
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names

Chris Hill-6
In reply to this post by Dan S
On 01/11/14 13:36, Dan S wrote:

> 2014-11-01 12:50 GMT+00:00 Richard Fairhurst <[hidden email]>:
>> Matthijs Melissen wrote:
>>> Voting is now open for the proposal to unify the names of chain
>>> shops within the UK by renaming them.
>> No, it isn't.
>>
>> Mechanical edits stand or fall by their own merits. They cannot be ok-ed by
>> a vote.
>>
>>  From the Automated Edits Code of Conduct: "We do not require or recommend a
>> formal vote, but if there is significant objection to your plan - and even
>> minorities may be significant! - then change it or drop it altogether."
>>
>> We historically have a low tolerance of mechanical edits and imports in the
>> UK; we prefer to make large-scale changes by hand. That is one of the
>> reasons why the OSM map of the UK is so good. A "come one, come all" vote on
>> the wiki can be trivially gerrymandered into supporting your proposals
>> without any proof of approval by the people who are affected by such a bulk
>> change, i.e. UK mappers.
>>
>> I am not sure where you got the idea of a "vote" for mechanical edits
>> (Wikipedia? wiki.osm.org tag pages?), but there is no precedent for it in
>> OSM and I would ask you to withdraw it.
> The "rationale" part of the webpage* seems to me to set out Matthjis'
> perspective on why to ask for a vote.
>
> Also, Matthijs sent out an RFC email proposing this whole process - he
> got lots of feedback (which he has taken into consideration), but
> no-one objected to the voting mechanism. It's not your fault if you
> only just noticed this happening, of course, but it's a little rude to
> declare "No it isn't" in the sense of shutting him down when he's
> proceeding in such an open and consultative manner. Lots of people
> have discussed Matthijs' proposed changes in the RFC thread and now
> this thread. To me, it seems a good example of consultation.
>

I'm objecting to the voting process now.

I dislike votes to 'approve' tags on the wiki, however when such a tag
is voted upon the main outcome is that the newly 'approved' tag is
labelled as such in the wiki. Setting aside other consequences, we are
all at least free to ignore such a new tag.

Voting on a mechanical edit is completely different. A mechanical edit
imposes one person's idea of what is correct on other people's edits.
This is, IMHO, wrong. A simple vote by a handful of people cannot be
allowed to validate such a change.

If Matthijs were to create an overlay for the map or even a simple list
showing the places he thinks are wrong, I would be glad check the ones
in the area I usually edit in, but if he changes things here that are
contrary to what is on the ground, I'll revert it and ask for Matthijs
to be blocked from editing, as I would any other vandal.

--
Cheers, Chris
user: chillly


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Re: Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names

Dan S
Chris, I appreciate what you're saying - except for one point:

2014-11-01 15:35 GMT+00:00 Chris Hill <[hidden email]>:
[...]
> to what is on the ground, I'll revert it and ask for Matthijs to be blocked
> from editing, as I would any other vandal.

Please can we all stop using the word "vandal" to mean "someone who
makes edits I/we disagree with"? That's very very far from what
vandalism actually is. We do have vandals in osm but please, we can
all tell the difference between vandalism and difference of opinion.
Can't we??

Dan

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Re: Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names

Chris Hill-6
On 01/11/14 15:39, Dan S wrote:

> Chris, I appreciate what you're saying - except for one point:
>
> 2014-11-01 15:35 GMT+00:00 Chris Hill <[hidden email]>:
> [...]
>> to what is on the ground, I'll revert it and ask for Matthijs to be blocked
>> from editing, as I would any other vandal.
> Please can we all stop using the word "vandal" to mean "someone who
> makes edits I/we disagree with"? That's very very far from what
> vandalism actually is. We do have vandals in osm but please, we can
> all tell the difference between vandalism and difference of opinion.
> Can't we??
>
> Dan
>
Matthijs is not a vandal, he has not knowingly made wide-scale incorrect
edits that he knows other people disagree with.

If he does that would change my opinion.

--
Cheers, Chris
user: chillly


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Re: Voting mechanical edit: UK shop names

Matthijs Melissen
In reply to this post by Will Phillips
On 1 November 2014 10:50, Will Phillips <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Here is a survey photo of mine, which is similar to the ones Ed posted:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/97133921@N03/15494864347/
>
> We should be using the name displayed on the sign, which in the examples
> above is clearly 'Brantano Footwear'.  I would object to any change to the
> name tagging in these examples.

It is quite common for shops to list the products they sell under the
shop name on a shield. Example:
http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy292/dennoir/Artistic/290320092891hamersmith.jpg
I don't think anyone would add this shop as 'Sweets & News cold drinks
magazines newspapers sweets bus passes'. One could argue that the text
'Footwear' likewise indicates the products the shop sells, rather than
it being part of the name. Note that the term 'footwear' does not
appear on their website: http://www.brantano.co.uk However, on other
channels, like their Twitter, they do apparently use the term Brantano
Footwear: https://twitter.com/Brantano_Shoes, so the situation is not
entirely clear.

Please let me know what you think after this explanation. If you (or
anyone else) still disagrees with this change, I will remove it from
the proposal.

-- Matthijs

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