Was barrier=jersey_barrier approved in a proposal?

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Was barrier=jersey_barrier approved in a proposal?

Joseph Eisenberg
The page for barrier=jersey_barrier says it is an approved tag. It's
certainly commonly used, but I can't find a proposal page for it. It
was not included on the list in the 2008 Barriers proposal, and the
wiki page was created only in 2014. I suspect it's a de facto tag, but
it's hard to search the wiki for old proposals, perhaps I missed
something.

The barrier=wall page suggests a subtag of wall=jersey_barrier. I
think barrier=jersey_barrier is better, since I don't think of these
features as walls (perhaps because they are short prefabricated
sections?), but I would like to know if this was every discussed.

It's not yet rendered in the Openstreetmap-carto style, but it's been
used >6000 times.

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Re: Was barrier=jersey_barrier approved in a proposal?

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 12. Apr 2019, at 02:03, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> , but I would like to know if this was every discussed


would it influence your judgment of the situation significantly if you found a 2009 proposal with 9 votes for it and 1 abstention?

IMHO the voting is quite useful as a basic first check if something is accepted, and whether there might already be established tagging you did not find, but after some years of mapping what actually counts is how the tag is used, and the importance of votings fades.

Cheers, Martin
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Re: Was barrier=jersey_barrier approved in a proposal?

Joseph Eisenberg
I want to know so that the wiki page can be edited to show the correct status: approved vs in use.

It’s significant if 8 people thought about it and voted yes, after discussing the issue here, otherwise it might have been crated without checking if this Ian the right British English word.

I suspect “Jersey Barrier” is American only.

On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 7:28 AM Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


sent from a phone

> On 12. Apr 2019, at 02:03, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> , but I would like to know if this was every discussed


would it influence your judgment of the situation significantly if you found a 2009 proposal with 9 votes for it and 1 abstention?

IMHO the voting is quite useful as a basic first check if something is accepted, and whether there might already be established tagging you did not find, but after some years of mapping what actually counts is how the tag is used, and the importance of votings fades.

Cheers, Martin
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Re: Was barrier=jersey_barrier approved in a proposal?

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

On 14. Apr 2019, at 04:43, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

I want to know so that the wiki page can be edited to show the correct status: approved vs in use.


I went back into the archives and it seems it was included and approved in my more barrier types proposal 2011: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/New_barrier_types&oldid=684703
Not sure where the tag name for jersey barriers came from, probably from tagging ml discussion (it is not a word I have in my vocabulary)

Cheers, Martin 


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Re: Was barrier=jersey_barrier approved in a proposal?

AlaskaDave
From Wikipedia:

Jersey barriers were developed in the 1950s, beginning in the U.S. state of New Jersey as separators between lanes of a highway. Over time, they grew taller (as their effectiveness was demonstrated) and became more modular (as their usefulness as temporary barriers became apparent). Taller barriers have the added advantage of blocking most oncoming headlights.

So it has an American heritage. Seeing as it's a widely used term in OSM, I'd say it's a small payback for forcing us to use the English spelling of things like centre and neighbourhood.  LOL

Dave

On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 3:57 AM Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


sent from a phone

On 14. Apr 2019, at 04:43, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

I want to know so that the wiki page can be edited to show the correct status: approved vs in use.


I went back into the archives and it seems it was included and approved in my more barrier types proposal 2011: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/New_barrier_types&oldid=684703
Not sure where the tag name for jersey barriers came from, probably from tagging ml discussion (it is not a word I have in my vocabulary)

Cheers, Martin 

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Re: Was barrier=jersey_barrier approved in a proposal?

Joseph Eisenberg
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
Thanks, Martin! I couldn’t find that link.

I wish the OSM wiki search feature had a better algorithm.

Can anyone from England confirm that this tag is intelligible in your dialect? Are there other names for these that should be mentioned on the page?

Joseph

On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 4:57 PM Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


sent from a phone

On 14. Apr 2019, at 04:43, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

I want to know so that the wiki page can be edited to show the correct status: approved vs in use.


I went back into the archives and it seems it was included and approved in my more barrier types proposal 2011: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/New_barrier_types&oldid=684703
Not sure where the tag name for jersey barriers came from, probably from tagging ml discussion (it is not a word I have in my vocabulary)

Cheers, Martin 

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Re: Was barrier=jersey_barrier approved in a proposal?

Andy Townsend
On 14/04/2019 10:56, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> Can anyone from England confirm that this tag is intelligible in your
> dialect? Are there other names for these that should be mentioned on
> the page?

It's not in common non-trade use in the UK, but trade sites certainly
use that name.  Maybe others can (I'm sure there are a few UK highway
engineers on this list), but I can't think of anything other than
"concrete barrier" for these.

Partly the reason might be that they're a relatively recent introduction
to the UK - divided roads historically had a grass median, later with
added Armco or a metal catch rope (designed to deflect wayward traffic
back into their lane, not just stop it). As the median (and hard
shoulders) came to be viewed as "wasted space" there's more concrete
around now - but the US name hasn't really crossed the Atlantic into
general UK use.

Most importantly I'd say "Jersey Barrier" doesn't mean something
_different_ here.  If it did, that would be a problem.

Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: Was barrier=jersey_barrier approved in a proposal?

Joseph Eisenberg
Great. Thank you

On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 9:45 PM [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 14/04/2019 10:56, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> Can anyone from England confirm that this tag is intelligible in your
> dialect? Are there other names for these that should be mentioned on
> the page?

It's not in common non-trade use in the UK, but trade sites certainly
use that name.  Maybe others can (I'm sure there are a few UK highway
engineers on this list), but I can't think of anything other than
"concrete barrier" for these.

Partly the reason might be that they're a relatively recent introduction
to the UK - divided roads historically had a grass median, later with
added Armco or a metal catch rope (designed to deflect wayward traffic
back into their lane, not just stop it). As the median (and hard
shoulders) came to be viewed as "wasted space" there's more concrete
around now - but the US name hasn't really crossed the Atlantic into
general UK use.

Most importantly I'd say "Jersey Barrier" doesn't mean something
_different_ here.  If it did, that would be a problem.

Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: Was barrier=jersey_barrier approved in a proposal?

Tordanik
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
On 14.04.19 11:56, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> Thanks, Martin! I couldn’t find that link.

On many wiki pages, the infobox template will show an icon next to the
status (e.g. "approved"). Clicking that icon links to the proposal.

The link is based on the "statuslink" field of the template, and I find
it very useful for locating the proposal that a tag originated in.

Tobias

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Re: Was barrier=jersey_barrier approved in a proposal?

Joseph Eisenberg
Thanks!
I usually browse the wiki with images turned off to save on data (I
pay $20 per Gigabyte), so sometimes I miss these things. I wish all
the important images had an alt-text.

On 4/14/19, Tobias Knerr <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 14.04.19 11:56, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>> Thanks, Martin! I couldn’t find that link.
>
> On many wiki pages, the infobox template will show an icon next to the
> status (e.g. "approved"). Clicking that icon links to the proposal.
>
> The link is based on the "statuslink" field of the template, and I find
> it very useful for locating the proposal that a tag originated in.
>
> Tobias
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Was barrier=jersey_barrier approved in a proposal?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Andy Townsend


sent from a phone

> On 14. Apr 2019, at 14:43, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> but I can't think of anything other than "concrete barrier" for these.


yes, which is very unspecific and doesn’t include those made of plastic

Cheers, Martin


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Re: Was barrier=jersey_barrier approved in a proposal?

TonyS
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg

I was unfamiliar with the term jersey_barrier - but then there are other barriers I was unfamiliar with. I'm happy to use it - I'm English in England - as there are no dual-uses I am aware of.

https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/Wp18aKeOYiiFWti5nTqorQ  in my opinion shows some very posh jersey-barriers outside the Palace of Westminster.

I've noticed that many of the plastic barriers used on UK motorways are filled with water - presumably as they can be located by hand then filled from a mobile water tank - no crane required.

Tony

On 14/04/2019 10:56, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
Thanks, Martin! I couldn’t find that link.

I wish the OSM wiki search feature had a better algorithm.

Can anyone from England confirm that this tag is intelligible in your dialect? Are there other names for these that should be mentioned on the page?

Joseph

On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 4:57 PM Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


sent from a phone

On 14. Apr 2019, at 04:43, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

I want to know so that the wiki page can be edited to show the correct status: approved vs in use.


I went back into the archives and it seems it was included and approved in my more barrier types proposal 2011: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/New_barrier_types&oldid=684703
Not sure where the tag name for jersey barriers came from, probably from tagging ml discussion (it is not a word I have in my vocabulary)

Cheers, Martin 

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Re: Was barrier=jersey_barrier approved in a proposal?

Warin
The same plastic barriers are used in Australia. While they may be capable of retaining water .. I am yet to see one with water in it ... probably too much trouble and we do have a lack of water too.
Where weight is required the concrete ones look to be used, possibly easier and quicker  to do that than the plastic ones then fill with water, then drain etc.

On 15/04/19 03:53, Tony Shield wrote:

I was unfamiliar with the term jersey_barrier - but then there are other barriers I was unfamiliar with. I'm happy to use it - I'm English in England - as there are no dual-uses I am aware of.

https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/Wp18aKeOYiiFWti5nTqorQ  in my opinion shows some very posh jersey-barriers outside the Palace of Westminster.

I've noticed that many of the plastic barriers used on UK motorways are filled with water - presumably as they can be located by hand then filled from a mobile water tank - no crane required.

Tony

On 14/04/2019 10:56, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
Thanks, Martin! I couldn’t find that link.

I wish the OSM wiki search feature had a better algorithm.

Can anyone from England confirm that this tag is intelligible in your dialect? Are there other names for these that should be mentioned on the page?

Joseph

On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 4:57 PM Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


sent from a phone

On 14. Apr 2019, at 04:43, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

I want to know so that the wiki page can be edited to show the correct status: approved vs in use.


I went back into the archives and it seems it was included and approved in my more barrier types proposal 2011: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/New_barrier_types&oldid=684703
Not sure where the tag name for jersey barriers came from, probably from tagging ml discussion (it is not a word I have in my vocabulary)

Cheers, Martin 




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