Wastewater Plants

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Wastewater Plants

Clifford Snow
I'd like to expand tagging of wastewater treatment plants by adding in clarifiers and digesters to the man_made=wastewater_plant wiki page. 

This came about as I was editing an area with a wastewater treatment facility. I didn't know what the various parts of the facility were called.  A friend who works in GIS for the counties wastewater division helped me with the terminology for these objects.  

The two objects are

According to Wikipedia, clarifiers are settlement tanks that continuously remove sediment from the wastewater. [1]

Digesters use a process called anaerobic digestion is used to breakdown sewage sludge. [2] since anaerobic digester is used in other processes, I'd like to keep it simple and just call them digesters.

For tagging, I'd to suggest the two tags.
man_made=clarifier (used 28 times)
man_made=digester (anaerobic used 3 times, including one misspelling)


I'm not sure if clarifier and digester are what the British call them, if someone knows, please let me know.


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Re: Wastewater Plants

François Lacombe-2
Hi

That's a good idea, other components of wastewater treatement plants should be mapped the same way
Nevertheless, man_made isn't appropriate for that.

wastewater=* or at least water=* should be used for such values, shouldn't you?

All the best

François

Le ven. 26 oct. 2018 à 19:23, Clifford Snow <[hidden email]> a écrit :
I'd like to expand tagging of wastewater treatment plants by adding in clarifiers and digesters to the man_made=wastewater_plant wiki page. 

This came about as I was editing an area with a wastewater treatment facility. I didn't know what the various parts of the facility were called.  A friend who works in GIS for the counties wastewater division helped me with the terminology for these objects.  

The two objects are

According to Wikipedia, clarifiers are settlement tanks that continuously remove sediment from the wastewater. [1]

Digesters use a process called anaerobic digestion is used to breakdown sewage sludge. [2] since anaerobic digester is used in other processes, I'd like to keep it simple and just call them digesters.

For tagging, I'd to suggest the two tags.
man_made=clarifier (used 28 times)
man_made=digester (anaerobic used 3 times, including one misspelling)


I'm not sure if clarifier and digester are what the British call them, if someone knows, please let me know.

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Re: Wastewater Plants

Clifford Snow

On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 2:36 PM François Lacombe <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi

That's a good idea, other components of wastewater treatement plants should be mapped the same way
Nevertheless, man_made isn't appropriate for that.

wastewater=* or at least water=* should be used for such values, shouldn't you?

wastewater as a key is used 100 times according to  taginfo. I like your suggestion of using wastewater or even wastewater_plant as a key with the various components as values of that key. That works better than having the values as part of the man_made key. With 50K man_made=wastewater_plant there are a number that could be improved in OSM if we had better tagging.

Clifford

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Re: Wastewater Plants

Graeme Fitzpatrick
On Sat, 27 Oct 2018 at 09:17, Clifford Snow <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 2:36 PM François Lacombe <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi

That's a good idea, other components of wastewater treatement plants should be mapped the same way
Nevertheless, man_made isn't appropriate for that.

wastewater=* or at least water=* should be used for such values, shouldn't you?

wastewater as a key is used 100 times according to  taginfo. I like your suggestion of using wastewater or even wastewater_plant as a key with the various components as values of that key. That works better than having the values as part of the man_made key. With 50K man_made=wastewater_plant there are a number that could be improved in OSM if we had better tagging.

Does sound good.

Would you also change the main  man_made=wastewater_plant listing?

Maybe wastewater=plant / facility?

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: Wastewater Plants

SelfishSeahorse
In reply to this post by Clifford Snow
On Fri, 26 Oct 2018 at 19:23, Clifford Snow <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> For tagging, I'd to suggest the two tags.
> man_made=clarifier (used 28 times)
> man_made=digester (anaerobic used 3 times, including one misspelling)

Another idea i see is to extend the current tagging scheme with
landuse=basin (+ content=sewage) by creating new basin=* values
basin=clarifier and basin=digester. This would have the advantage that
no retagging is required and people that want to map the basins but
don't know their function can still map them.

Regards
Markus

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Re: Wastewater Plants

Paul Allen
On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 8:28 AM SelfishSeahorse <[hidden email]> wrote:

Another idea i see is to extend the current tagging scheme with
landuse=basin (+ content=sewage) by creating new basin=* values
basin=clarifier and basin=digester. This would have the advantage that
no retagging is required and people that want to map the basins but
don't know their function can still map them.

It has the disadvantage that it doesn't make sense.  At least not to me, as a native speaker of
British English (which is the normal language for defining OSM tags) and as somebody who
doesn't work in sanitation.  Maybe a British sanitation engineer would use basin or a non-British
speaker would use basin but I most definitely would not.

Firstly, I don't think of a settling tank or clarifier as a basin.  A porcelain object for washing hands
in a bathroom is a basin and a geological depression in which water collects is a basin, and a
man-made depression for holding water might be a basin but a clarifier isn't.  I can see the
commonalities in all of those but a clarifier just isn't a basin.  Other than bathroom porcelain,
a basin requires a depression in the ground.

Secondly, if you're going to apply landuse to a man-mad object rather than to an area of ground
that holds a collection of man-made objects then instead of building=house we should have
landuse=house.  We don't do things that way.

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Re: Wastewater Plants

Clifford Snow


On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 6:05 AM Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:

It has the disadvantage that it doesn't make sense.  At least not to me, as a native speaker of
British English (which is the normal language for defining OSM tags) and as somebody who
doesn't work in sanitation.  Maybe a British sanitation engineer would use basin or a non-British
speaker would use basin but I most definitely would not.

Firstly, I don't think of a settling tank or clarifier as a basin.  A porcelain object for washing hands
in a bathroom is a basin and a geological depression in which water collects is a basin, and a
man-made depression for holding water might be a basin but a clarifier isn't.  I can see the
commonalities in all of those but a clarifier just isn't a basin.  Other than bathroom porcelain,
a basin requires a depression in the ground.

There are some wastewater treatment facilities that use settling basins. The ones I've mapped all use more advanced technology. Where I have heard of settling basins is those used by large farm operations. The one that comes to mind is during the flooding in the US Southeast where pig farmers settling basins were covered by flood waters which resulted in tons of waste flowing into the area.  

If the wastewater plant used settling basins then they should be mapped as such. But as I said, all of the plants I've seen use clarifiers and digesters.


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Re: Wastewater Plants

Clifford Snow
In reply to this post by Graeme Fitzpatrick


On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 7:46 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:

Would you also change the main  man_made=wastewater_plant listing?

Maybe wastewater=plant / facility?

If we man_made=wastewater_plant didn't exist, then I would propose a new key of wastewater=* similar to the power=*. At this point, I'm reluctant to suggest wasterwater as a new high level key. I'd be interested to hear others opinion on wastewater=* 

Clifford 
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Re: Wastewater Plants

SelfishSeahorse
In reply to this post by Paul Allen
On Sat, 27 Oct 2018 at 15:06, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> It has the disadvantage that it doesn't make sense.  At least not to me, as a native speaker of
> British English (which is the normal language for defining OSM tags) and as somebody who
> doesn't work in sanitation.  Maybe a British sanitation engineer would use basin or a non-British
> speaker would use basin but I most definitely would not.
>
> Firstly, I don't think of a settling tank or clarifier as a basin.  A porcelain object for washing hands
> in a bathroom is a basin and a geological depression in which water collects is a basin, and a
> man-made depression for holding water might be a basin but a clarifier isn't.  I can see the
> commonalities in all of those but a clarifier just isn't a basin.  Other than bathroom porcelain,
> a basin requires a depression in the ground.

Sorry, my mistake, i didn't think of tanks. The wastewater plants i've
mapped so far have concrete lined depressions like those on these
images:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Flug_Leer_nach_Emden_2010_11.JPG
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kläranlage_Heidelberg_Grenzhof.JPG
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:090913-EpurationOupeye_0020.jpeg
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sedimentation_tank.jpg

I think it's okay to call them basins, isn't it?

> Secondly, if you're going to apply landuse to a man-mad object rather than to an area of ground
> that holds a collection of man-made objects then instead of building=house we should have
> landuse=house.  We don't do things that way.

You're right, basins aren't land uses.

What about man_made=basin and man_made=tank then? (I know that there
is man_made=storage_tank, but these tanks are for treating waste
water, not for storing them.) These tags could also be used for basins
and tanks that serve other purposes, for example slurry basins or
tanks.

Regards
Markus

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Re: Wastewater Plants

Mark Wagner
In reply to this post by Clifford Snow
On Sat, 27 Oct 2018 08:20:03 -0700
Clifford Snow <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 6:05 AM Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >
> > It has the disadvantage that it doesn't make sense.  At least not
> > to me, as a native speaker of
> > British English (which is the normal language for defining OSM
> > tags) and as somebody who
> > doesn't work in sanitation.  Maybe a British sanitation engineer
> > would use basin or a non-British
> > speaker would use basin but I most definitely would not.
> >
> > Firstly, I don't think of a settling tank or clarifier as a basin.
> > A porcelain object for washing hands
> > in a bathroom is a basin and a geological depression in which water
> > collects is a basin, and a
> > man-made depression for holding water might be a basin but a
> > clarifier isn't.  I can see the
> > commonalities in all of those but a clarifier just isn't a basin.
> > Other than bathroom porcelain,
> > a basin requires a depression in the ground.
> >  
>
> There are some wastewater treatment facilities that use settling
> basins. The ones I've mapped all use more advanced technology. Where
> I have heard of settling basins is those used by large farm
> operations. The one that comes to mind is during the flooding in the
> US Southeast where pig farmers settling basins were covered by flood
> waters which resulted in tons of waste flowing into the area.
>
> If the wastewater plant used settling basins then they should be
> mapped as such. But as I said, all of the plants I've seen use
> clarifiers and digesters.

You should visit the other side of the state, then.  Virtually every
small town here has a group of two to six settling ponds, usually on the
downwind side.

--
Mark

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Re: Wastewater Plants

Graeme Fitzpatrick
In reply to this post by SelfishSeahorse



On Sun, 28 Oct 2018 at 01:53, SelfishSeahorse <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think it's okay to call them basins, isn't it?

I would actually call them tanks rather than basins 
 
(I know that there is man_made=storage_tank, but these tanks are for treating waste
water, not for storing them.)

When you look at storage_tanks https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dstorage_tank, there are actually sub-tags for 
content=sewage & content=wastewater, a so it would seem to be OK to use that?

These could also be used with Clifford's possible wastewater= key? 

Thanks 

Graeme

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Re: Wastewater Plants

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by SelfishSeahorse


sent from a phone

> On 27. Oct 2018, at 09:27, SelfishSeahorse <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Another idea i see is to extend the current tagging scheme with
> landuse=basin (+ content=sewage) by creating new basin=* values
> basin=clarifier and basin=digester.


landuse for tagging features is not a good fit, I prefer man_made for these, as it fits better with the general scheme of tags


Cheers, Martin
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Re: Wastewater Plants

SelfishSeahorse
In reply to this post by Graeme Fitzpatrick
On Sun, 28 Oct 2018 at 02:07, Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I would actually call them tanks rather than basins

Doesn't a tank need to be closed?

> When you look at storage_tanks https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dstorage_tank, there are actually sub-tags for
> content=sewage & content=wastewater, a so it would seem to be OK to use that?

Just because it's in use doesn't mean it makes sense, does it? See
landuse=basin.

> These could also be used with Clifford's possible wastewater= key?

You mean wastewater=clarifier|digester? I think so.

Regards
Markus

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Re: Wastewater Plants

SelfishSeahorse
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
On Sun, 28 Oct 2018 at 08:14, Martin Koppenhoefer
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> landuse for tagging features is not a good fit, I prefer man_made for these, as it fits better with the general scheme of tags

I agree. This is why i proposed man_made=basin|tank in a later message.

Regards
Markus

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Re: Wastewater Plants

marc marc
In reply to this post by Graeme Fitzpatrick
Le 28. 10. 18 à 02:06, Graeme Fitzpatrick a écrit :
>>     (I know that there is man_made=storage_tank

it's a 2-in-1 tag :
man_made=tank + usage=storage
because if the same tank is used for wastewater,
it 'll look the same, only the usage change.
and using man_made=storage_tank for a not-a-storage tank is strange

On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 8:28 AM SelfishSeahorse wrote:

> basin=clarifier and basin=digester.
man_made=tank + usage=clarifier or usage=digester
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Re: Wastewater Plants

SelfishSeahorse
On Sun, 28 Oct 2018 at 23:30, marc marc <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> man_made=tank + usage=clarifier or usage=digester

+1

Regards
Markus

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