Waterway tributary role

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Waterway tributary role

Eugene Podshivalov
Hi all,
Does anyone remember where "tributary" role of waterway relations was discussed.
It is used quite often in Fance but I could not find any reference on the wiki.

Thanks,
Eugene

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Re: Waterway tributary role

marc marc
Le 11.04.19 à 12:48, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :

> I could not find any reference on the wiki.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Frodrigo/Relation:Waterway
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Re: Waterway tributary role

Brad Neuhauser
Seems like this is essentially replaced by the destination key?

On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 4:24 PM marc marc <[hidden email]> wrote:
Le 11.04.19 à 12:48, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :

> I could not find any reference on the wiki.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Frodrigo/Relation:Waterway
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Re: Waterway tributary role

Eugene Podshivalov
Marc, thanks for the link. Do I understand correctly that that page is just a personal notes page?

Brad, imho "destination" key does not help much, because names are not unique and if you are making a waterway network, you still have to compare geometries.

Cheers,
Eugene

пт, 12 апр. 2019 г. в 00:27, Brad Neuhauser <[hidden email]>:
Seems like this is essentially replaced by the destination key?

On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 4:24 PM marc marc <[hidden email]> wrote:
Le 11.04.19 à 12:48, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :

> I could not find any reference on the wiki.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Frodrigo/Relation:Waterway
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Re: Waterway tributary role

marc marc
It's a little more than a personal note.

I feel like I remember several discussions about this on talk-fr,
but I didn't look for any other links that had been posted.
I also don't remember if the page as updated after a thread
or not. it's a several years old :)

destination is the opposite, no ?
if river A go into river B  :
in relation A : destination=B
in relation B : A with rôle tributary

Le 11.04.19 à 23:37, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :

> Marc, thanks for the link. Do I understand correctly that that page is
> just a personal notes page?
>
> Brad, imho "destination" key does not help much, because names are not
> unique and if you are making a waterway network, you still have to
> compare geometries.
>
> Cheers,
> Eugene
>
> пт, 12 апр. 2019 г. в 00:27, Brad Neuhauser <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>>:
>
>     Seems like this is essentially replaced by the destination key?
>
>     On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 4:24 PM marc marc <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>         Le 11.04.19 à 12:48, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
>
>          > I could not find any reference on the wiki.
>
>         https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Frodrigo/Relation:Waterway
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Re: Waterway tributary role

Florian Lohoff-2
On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 11:48:28AM +0000, marc marc wrote:

> It's a little more than a personal note.
>
> I feel like I remember several discussions about this on talk-fr,
> but I didn't look for any other links that had been posted.
> I also don't remember if the page as updated after a thread
> or not. it's a several years old :)
>
> destination is the opposite, no ?
> if river A go into river B  :
> in relation A : destination=B
> in relation B : A with rôle tributary
I dont think this is necessary to make it that complicated. Processing
geometries with some simple hints where to start enables to produce maps
like this:

https://www.kompf.de/gps/rivermap.html

The page is German but also describes common problems in Waterway
connectivity.

Flo
--
Florian Lohoff                                                 [hidden email]
        UTF-8 Test: The 🐈 ran after a 🐁, but the 🐁 ran away

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Re: Waterway tributary role

marc marc
Le 13.04.19 à 16:25, Florian Lohoff a écrit :

> On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 11:48:28AM +0000, marc marc wrote:
>> It's a little more than a personal note.
>>
>> I feel like I remember several discussions about this on talk-fr,
>> but I didn't look for any other links that had been posted.
>> I also don't remember if the page as updated after a thread
>> or not. it's a several years old :)
>>
>> destination is the opposite, no ?
>> if river A go into river B  :
>> in relation A : destination=B
>> in relation B : A with rôle tributary
>
> I dont think this is necessary to make it that complicated.

I also do not like the tributary role.
because it can be deduced from the geometry of the way waterway.
I only answered the one who was looking for the doc of this tag
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Re: Waterway tributary role

Werner Hoch
In reply to this post by Eugene Podshivalov
Hi,

Am Donnerstag, den 11.04.2019, 13:48 +0300 schrieb Eugene Podshivalov:
> Hi all,
> Does anyone remember where "tributary" role of waterway relations was
> discussed.
> It is used quite often in Fance but I could not find any reference on
> the wiki.

From 2010 to 2012 the mapping of waterway relations has been unified
and https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:waterway was the
result of it.

Part of the discussion about the tributary role is here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Relations/Proposed/Waterway#tributary_vs._tributary_of_relation_role

The role has not made it into the the final definition of the waterway
relation model, but is still used in France.

You can see the bad side effect in Wikipedia:
Nice rivers in the map:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_River

The Seine with it's tributaries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seine
displays the watershed.

In parallel there is the
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:watershed mapping. This at
least divides the mapping of watersheds and waterway into seperate
models. Nobody ever wrote a proposal about this.

Regards
Werner




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Re: Waterway tributary role

Werner Hoch
In reply to this post by marc marc
Hi,

Am Samstag, den 13.04.2019, 11:48 +0000 schrieb marc marc:
> destination is the opposite, no ?
> if river A go into river B  :
> in relation A : destination=B
> in relation B : A with rôle tributary

Destination helps human mappers to understand the data.
It is optional.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:waterway

Currently I only add it if the connection data of the waterway segments
do not end in another river.

e.g. a river flows into an ocean and it has the tag
destination="atlantic ocean".
This tag is usefull as you now don't have to look for an downstream
river, where just some node connection is missing.

For larger rivers you can use wikidata for connection analyses, too.
If the wikidata tags are added to the waterway relations you can
compare the geometric connection (from osm) with the logical
connections described in wikidata:

E.g. the Ohio River https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q4915 flows into
(mouth of the watercourse) the https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1497
Mississippi River that flows into Gulf of Mexico https://www.wikidata.
org/wiki/Q12630 which is part of the American Mediterranean Sea
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q470088 and that is part of the Atlantic
Ocean https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q97

In my opinion the best mapping method now is to add the wikidata tag
and define the mouth of watercourse in wikidata (if not already there).
I do not like the tributary role in waterway relations and not the
watershed relations.

Regars
Werner



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