We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

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We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

Paul White
Hello,

I wanted to raise a concern about tagging house numbers on a building using a hyphen to denote the address range (e.g 33-55 Main Street). This is a bad idea because some areas in the United States and possibly elsewhere use hyphenated street numbers for individual dwellings.[1] Data consumers see these hyphenated house numbers as one address, as well. Other methods documented here work better, in my opinion.

I hope to get some input on this issue and the best path forward.

Best, Paul

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Re: We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

Andrew Harvey-3
> Data consumers see these hyphenated house numbers as one address, as well.

Is that a problem? An address range can be considered a single address.

> Create an address node for each housenumber and place each node somewhere on the building outline (or inside the building)

I don't think that's a good idea, we should try to accurately map what's on the ground, when the street address is signposted as a range like "1-3" we should capture that as a single address "1-3" and not multiple addresses unless it's signed that way on the ground.

> If house numbers are associated with individual entrances, tag those numbers to entrance=* nodes.

Doesn't work when the whole site and single main entrance have the address range.

> Separate the numbers by commas (e.g., 11,13,15) or semicolon (e.g., 11;13;15).

Again I feel that's skewing what's actually represented on the ground, which is a single address which is a range and not multiple addresses.

> Specify the range (e.g. 10-95). Note that there is a risk of ambiguity between two meanings:
> When such a range is officially used for the entire house, this is the preferred method. In this case 10-95 is simply a label like any other. In this and other cases, house numbers officially contain a dash and are not meant to be treated as special.
> When such a range is meant to be interpreted as a list of addresses, use addr:interpolation=* (described below) to emphasise this. Some mappers will add a short "virtual" way which allows them to put addresses 10 and 95 on separate nodes as normal. Some mappers will specify the range 10-95 on a single object, where the addition of the addr:interpolation=* tag disambiguates it from the "simply a label" meaning, specifying that it is indeed to be treated as a range. Both approaches are used in practice and there is little consensus.
> Note that in some cases building or building complex has single address such as 3-5 that only looks like a housenumber range. As usual, do not convert such data blindly, without a verification.

I think this is the best option, since it depends exactly what's happening on the ground.

I think the only reasonable alternative is to have something like addr:housenumber:start=1 + addr:housenumber:end=3. Which is clearer that this is a range and allows data consumers to understand it better.

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 at 13:34, Paul White <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello,

I wanted to raise a concern about tagging house numbers on a building using a hyphen to denote the address range (e.g 33-55 Main Street). This is a bad idea because some areas in the United States and possibly elsewhere use hyphenated street numbers for individual dwellings.[1] Data consumers see these hyphenated house numbers as one address, as well. Other methods documented here work better, in my opinion.

I hope to get some input on this issue and the best path forward.

Best, Paul

[1]


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Re: We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

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Aug 18, 2020, 07:09 by [hidden email]:
> Data consumers see these hyphenated house numbers as one address, as well.

Is that a problem? An address range can be considered a single address.

> Create an address node for each housenumber and place each node somewhere on the building outline (or inside the building)

I don't think that's a good idea, we should try to accurately map what's on the ground, when the street address is signposted as a range like "1-3" we should capture that as a single address "1-3" and not multiple addresses unless it's signed that way on the ground.
It depends on what is actually on the ground, we are mapping addresses with addr:housenumber.

Single object using 1-3 range? OK, 1-3 is correct and other versions would be incorrect.

Single 1-3 signpost with three entrances? Then mapping each as a separate node with
addr:housenumber=1, addr:housenumber=2, addr:housenumber=3 is preferable.

Single entrance? Depends on a case, if there is later a clear split then three nodes are better
than one range.

Signposts are not sole address source, asking people - especially people living there -
is also perfectly acceptable on the ground survey method.

> If house numbers are associated with individual entrances, tag those numbers to entrance=* nodes.

Doesn't work when the whole site and single main entrance have the address range.
And in such case range may be OK or even preferable.
> Separate the numbers by commas (e.g., 11,13,15) or semicolon (e.g., 11;13;15).
why commas?
Again I feel that's skewing what's actually represented on the ground, which is a single address which is a range and not multiple addresses.
We are using addr:* to map addresses, not signposts. And in this specific case you are
anyway unable to specify range.
> Specify the range (e.g. 10-95). Note that there is a risk of ambiguity between two meanings:
> When such a range is officially used for the entire house, this is the preferred method. In this case 10-95 is simply a label like any other. In this and other cases, house numbers officially contain a dash and are not meant to be treated as special.
> When such a range is meant to be interpreted as a list of addresses, use addr:interpolation=* (described below) to emphasise this. Some mappers will add a short "virtual" way which allows them to put addresses 10 and 95 on separate nodes as normal. Some mappers will specify the range 10-95 on a single object, where the addition of the addr:interpolation=* tag disambiguates it from the "simply a label" meaning, specifying that it is indeed to be treated as a range. Both approaches are used in practice and there is little consensus.
> Note that in some cases building or building complex has single address such as 3-5 that only looks like a housenumber range. As usual, do not convert such data blindly, without a verification.
I think this is the best option, since it depends exactly what's happening on the ground.

I think the only reasonable alternative is to have something like addr:housenumber:start=1 + addr:housenumber:end=3. Which is clearer that this is a range and allows data consumers to understand it better.

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 at 13:34, Paul White <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello,

I wanted to raise a concern about tagging house numbers on a building using a hyphen to denote the address range (e.g 33-55 Main Street). This is a bad idea because some areas in the United States and possibly elsewhere use hyphenated street numbers for individual dwellings.[1] Data consumers see these hyphenated house numbers as one address, as well. Other methods documented here work better, in my opinion.

I hope to get some input on this issue and the best path forward.

Best, Paul

[1]


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Re: We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

SimonPoole

The correct ways to model a range of house numbers is to use an address interpolation or explicitly list the numbers (using comma or semi-colons as delimitiers), anything else is woefully underspecified, not to mention other issues, for example hyphens being used to delimit building and apartment/unit numbers as in AUS for example.

Simon

Am 18.08.2020 um 11:02 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging:



Aug 18, 2020, 07:09 by [hidden email]:
> Data consumers see these hyphenated house numbers as one address, as well.

Is that a problem? An address range can be considered a single address.

> Create an address node for each housenumber and place each node somewhere on the building outline (or inside the building)

I don't think that's a good idea, we should try to accurately map what's on the ground, when the street address is signposted as a range like "1-3" we should capture that as a single address "1-3" and not multiple addresses unless it's signed that way on the ground.
It depends on what is actually on the ground, we are mapping addresses with addr:housenumber.

Single object using 1-3 range? OK, 1-3 is correct and other versions would be incorrect.

Single 1-3 signpost with three entrances? Then mapping each as a separate node with
addr:housenumber=1, addr:housenumber=2, addr:housenumber=3 is preferable.

Single entrance? Depends on a case, if there is later a clear split then three nodes are better
than one range.

Signposts are not sole address source, asking people - especially people living there -
is also perfectly acceptable on the ground survey method.

> If house numbers are associated with individual entrances, tag those numbers to entrance=* nodes.

Doesn't work when the whole site and single main entrance have the address range.
And in such case range may be OK or even preferable.
> Separate the numbers by commas (e.g., 11,13,15) or semicolon (e.g., 11;13;15).
why commas?
Again I feel that's skewing what's actually represented on the ground, which is a single address which is a range and not multiple addresses.
We are using addr:* to map addresses, not signposts. And in this specific case you are
anyway unable to specify range.
> Specify the range (e.g. 10-95). Note that there is a risk of ambiguity between two meanings:
> When such a range is officially used for the entire house, this is the preferred method. In this case 10-95 is simply a label like any other. In this and other cases, house numbers officially contain a dash and are not meant to be treated as special.
> When such a range is meant to be interpreted as a list of addresses, use addr:interpolation=* (described below) to emphasise this. Some mappers will add a short "virtual" way which allows them to put addresses 10 and 95 on separate nodes as normal. Some mappers will specify the range 10-95 on a single object, where the addition of the addr:interpolation=* tag disambiguates it from the "simply a label" meaning, specifying that it is indeed to be treated as a range. Both approaches are used in practice and there is little consensus.
> Note that in some cases building or building complex has single address such as 3-5 that only looks like a housenumber range. As usual, do not convert such data blindly, without a verification.
I think this is the best option, since it depends exactly what's happening on the ground.

I think the only reasonable alternative is to have something like addr:housenumber:start=1 + addr:housenumber:end=3. Which is clearer that this is a range and allows data consumers to understand it better.

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 at 13:34, Paul White <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello,

I wanted to raise a concern about tagging house numbers on a building using a hyphen to denote the address range (e.g 33-55 Main Street). This is a bad idea because some areas in the United States and possibly elsewhere use hyphenated street numbers for individual dwellings.[1] Data consumers see these hyphenated house numbers as one address, as well. Other methods documented here work better, in my opinion.

I hope to get some input on this issue and the best path forward.

Best, Paul

[1]


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Re: We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

Andrew Harvey-3
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 at 19:15, Simon Poole <[hidden email]> wrote:

The correct ways to model a range of house numbers is to use an address interpolation or explicitly list the numbers (using comma or semi-colons as delimitiers), anything else is woefully underspecified, not to mention other issues, for example hyphens being used to delimit building and apartment/unit numbers as in AUS for example.

If they are actually individual addresses and you're just taking a shortcut when mapping by using addr:interpolation https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr#Tags_for_interpolation_ways then that's okay.

But when you have a single parcel of land which has a single address which uses a range, then I don't think addr:interpolation is best, that would imply there are n addresses along the way here, but actually there is just a single range address eg 1-3, it's different to an interpolation.

Apartment/unit numbers should be entered with addr:unit, seperate from the street address number.

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Re: We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

Jarek Piórkowski
In reply to this post by Paul White
On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 at 23:32, Paul White <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I wanted to raise a concern about tagging house numbers on a building using a hyphen to denote the address range (e.g 33-55 Main Street).

Let's keep in mind there are also buildings in London and possibly
elsewhere which have a _single_ entrance and nevertheless a
"hyphenated " address, e.g. 4-5 Bonhill Street
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/157901333 and buildings nearby.

> This is a bad idea because some areas in the United States and possibly elsewhere use hyphenated street numbers for individual dwellings.[1]

Which are properly entered as addr:unit anyhow

--Jarek

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Re: We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Paul White


sent from a phone

> On 18. Aug 2020, at 05:34, Paul White <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I wanted to raise a concern about tagging house numbers on a building using a hyphen to denote the address range (e.g 33-55 Main Street).


I am not sure for buildings, but for addresses I use this all the time, because these are common addresses around here. There are some issues with this, for example if the address is 35-39 you cannot tell for sure whether this means 35;37;39 or 35;36;37;38;39
On the other hand I don’t care ;-)
It’s their address, and I might also map the individual numbers and their positions additionally, so it might eventually become more clear to someone looking at the situation.
Sometimes when the business uses 37/39 I will admittedly convert this to 37;39 for clarity.

Cheers Martin
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Re: We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

Colin Smale

On 2020-08-18 16:10, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

sent from a phone

On 18. Aug 2020, at 05:34, Paul White <[hidden email]> wrote:

I wanted to raise a concern about tagging house numbers on a building using a hyphen to denote the address range (e.g 33-55 Main Street).
 
It's their address, and I might also map the individual numbers and their positions additionally, so it might eventually become more clear to someone looking at the situation.
Sometimes when the business uses 37/39 I will admittedly convert this to 37;39 for clarity.

There are two use cases here: one is "what is the address of this building (or whatever)" and the other is the reverse situation: "where can I find number XXX". As long as we have tagging that is potentially ambiguous we won't be able to cover both.
 
In the US I know of cases where an apartment number can follow the street address, i.e. 10-321 meaning Street Address 10, apartment 321. In Europe I know of the suffix being used to indicate apartment number, or floor number - e.g. 379-3 meaning Street Address 379, Floor/Flat 3. Sometimes other characters are used for the floor/flat such as A/B/C or I/II/III - in these cases it is unambiguous because it is non-numeric.
 
On the other hand using the "1-5" notation to indicate a range is pretty well understood in the UK at least. What it is missing is the "interpolation" value (even, odd, all).
 
So let us sort this mess out by defining:
1) that a hyphen indicates a range
2) sub-addresses like a floor or apartment number must not use the hyphen notation, but must be given in addr:unit
3) an address using the range syntax should indicate the interpolation scheme by means of addr:interpolation=*
 

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Re: We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

Clay Smalley
On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 11:26 AM Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:
There are two use cases here: one is "what is the address of this building (or whatever)" and the other is the reverse situation: "where can I find number XXX". As long as we have tagging that is potentially ambiguous we won't be able to cover both.
 
In the US I know of cases where an apartment number can follow the street address, i.e. 10-321 meaning Street Address 10, apartment 321. In Europe I know of the suffix being used to indicate apartment number, or floor number - e.g. 379-3 meaning Street Address 379, Floor/Flat 3. Sometimes other characters are used for the floor/flat such as A/B/C or I/II/III - in these cases it is unambiguous because it is non-numeric.

Can you point out some examples? I've never seen that syntax used in US addresses.

On the other hand using the "1-5" notation to indicate a range is pretty well understood in the UK at least. What it is missing is the "interpolation" value (even, odd, all).
 
So let us sort this mess out by defining:
1) that a hyphen indicates a range
2) sub-addresses like a floor or apartment number must not use the hyphen notation, but must be given in addr:unit
3) an address using the range syntax should indicate the interpolation scheme by means of addr:interpolation=*

This leaves the situation in Queens, NY unsolved, where hyphenated addresses do not indicate ranges.

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Re: We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

Colin Smale

On 2020-08-18 20:55, Clay Smalley wrote:

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 11:26 AM Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:
There are two use cases here: one is "what is the address of this building (or whatever)" and the other is the reverse situation: "where can I find number XXX". As long as we have tagging that is potentially ambiguous we won't be able to cover both.
In the US I know of cases where an apartment number can follow the street address, i.e. 10-321 meaning Street Address 10, apartment 321. In Europe I know of the suffix being used to indicate apartment number, or floor number - e.g. 379-3 meaning Street Address 379, Floor/Flat 3. Sometimes other characters are used for the floor/flat such as A/B/C or I/II/III - in these cases it is unambiguous because it is non-numeric.
 
Can you point out some examples? I've never seen that syntax used in US addresses.
 
If you mean the US example, some friends were living in Long Island City, Queens, NY, and their apartment address was something like 1100-157 50th Ave. The other examples are possibly typically European. Here in the Netherlands there are all kinds of notations in use for sub-units. The national addressing standard has a field for an alphanumeric "house number suffix" for this that people in IT know about, but the average Johan might not know what a "huisnummertoevoeging" is. Normally the full number, including the suffix, is written together with some kind of separator.
 
There are also areas where the whole neighbourhood has a single street name, and everybody has a very long house number; the initial digits of the house number indicate the specific road within the neighbourhood. Sometimes these house numbers are written as 123-45 to aid navigation.
 
On the other hand using the "1-5" notation to indicate a range is pretty well understood in the UK at least. What it is missing is the "interpolation" value (even, odd, all).
So let us sort this mess out by defining:
1) that a hyphen indicates a range
2) sub-addresses like a floor or apartment number must not use the hyphen notation, but must be given in addr:unit
3) an address using the range syntax should indicate the interpolation scheme by means of addr:interpolation=*
 
This leaves the situation in Queens, NY unsolved, where hyphenated addresses do not indicate ranges.
 

As I mentioned above I know that hyphenated addresses can be used for subdivisions (apartments etc). Are there any other scenarios for hyphenated addresses?



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Re: We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

Clay Smalley
If you

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 12:51 PM Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 2020-08-18 20:55, Clay Smalley wrote:

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 11:26 AM Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:
There are two use cases here: one is "what is the address of this building (or whatever)" and the other is the reverse situation: "where can I find number XXX". As long as we have tagging that is potentially ambiguous we won't be able to cover both.
In the US I know of cases where an apartment number can follow the street address, i.e. 10-321 meaning Street Address 10, apartment 321. In Europe I know of the suffix being used to indicate apartment number, or floor number - e.g. 379-3 meaning Street Address 379, Floor/Flat 3. Sometimes other characters are used for the floor/flat such as A/B/C or I/II/III - in these cases it is unambiguous because it is non-numeric.
 
Can you point out some examples? I've never seen that syntax used in US addresses.
 
If you mean the US example, some friends were living in Long Island City, Queens, NY, and their apartment address was something like 1100-157 50th Ave. The other examples are possibly typically European. Here in the Netherlands there are all kinds of notations in use for sub-units. The national addressing standard has a field for an alphanumeric "house number suffix" for this that people in IT know about, but the average Johan might not know what a "huisnummertoevoeging" is. Normally the full number, including the suffix, is written together with some kind of separator.

I think you misunderstand hyphenated addresses in Queens. The second part of the hyphenation is not a flat/apartment number. As an example, the Dunkin Donuts at the corner of 31st St and 36th Ave has an address of 31-02 36th Ave, with no apartment number. The US Postal Service considers this to be equivalent to 3102 36th Ave, and will deliver mail to the same place regardless of whether you include the hyphen, though the address written on the entrance is hyphenated. Most building numbers in Queens have a hyphen before the last two digits.

There are also areas where the whole neighbourhood has a single street name, and everybody has a very long house number; the initial digits of the house number indicate the specific road within the neighbourhood. Sometimes these house numbers are written as 123-45 to aid navigation.

Examples?

-Clay

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Re: We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

Colin Smale

On 2020-08-18 22:39, Clay Smalley wrote:

If you

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 12:51 PM Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 2020-08-18 20:55, Clay Smalley wrote:

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 11:26 AM Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:
There are two use cases here: one is "what is the address of this building (or whatever)" and the other is the reverse situation: "where can I find number XXX". As long as we have tagging that is potentially ambiguous we won't be able to cover both.
In the US I know of cases where an apartment number can follow the street address, i.e. 10-321 meaning Street Address 10, apartment 321. In Europe I know of the suffix being used to indicate apartment number, or floor number - e.g. 379-3 meaning Street Address 379, Floor/Flat 3. Sometimes other characters are used for the floor/flat such as A/B/C or I/II/III - in these cases it is unambiguous because it is non-numeric.
Can you point out some examples? I've never seen that syntax used in US addresses.
If you mean the US example, some friends were living in Long Island City, Queens, NY, and their apartment address was something like 1100-157 50th Ave. The other examples are possibly typically European. Here in the Netherlands there are all kinds of notations in use for sub-units. The national addressing standard has a field for an alphanumeric "house number suffix" for this that people in IT know about, but the average Johan might not know what a "huisnummertoevoeging" is. Normally the full number, including the suffix, is written together with some kind of separator.
 
I think you misunderstand hyphenated addresses in Queens. The second part of the hyphenation is not a flat/apartment number. As an example, the Dunkin Donuts at the corner of 31st St and 36th Ave has an address of 31-02 36th Ave, with no apartment number. The US Postal Service considers this to be equivalent to 3102 36th Ave, and will deliver mail to the same place regardless of whether you include the hyphen, though the address written on the entrance is hyphenated. Most building numbers in Queens have a hyphen before the last two digits.
 
Thanks for the explanation.. It is indeed a while ago since I was there. Any idea how this is structured in IT systems? Is "house number" alphanumeric? Are the two parts stored separately? Or is it simply a question of formatting, inserting a "-" before the final two digits?
 
Maybe we should use a different character to indicate a range, such as a slash?
 
There are also areas where the whole neighbourhood has a single street name, and everybody has a very long house number; the initial digits of the house number indicate the specific road within the neighbourhood. Sometimes these house numbers are written as 123-45 to aid navigation.
 
Examples?
 

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Re: We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

Tod Fitch-2

On Aug 18, 2020, at 2:29 PM, Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:


Maybe we should use a different character to indicate a range, such as a slash?
 

In the United States it is not too uncommon for infill housing in urban areas to have fractional street numbers. So you can see addresses like “123 1/2 North Main Street” for a building located between 123 and 125 (odd numbers are usually on one side of the street so 124 is not available in this example). I already am annoyed by QA checkers that flag that as an error. Defining a slash to mean something other that the, to me, obvious use as a fraction would make things worse.

Cheers,

Tod



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Re: We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

Graeme Fitzpatrick
In reply to this post by Colin Smale



On Wed, 19 Aug 2020 at 05:51, Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
On the other hand using the "1-5" notation to indicate a range is pretty well understood in the UK at least. What it is missing is the "interpolation" value (even, odd, all).
So let us sort this mess out by defining:
1) that a hyphen indicates a range

Are there any other scenarios for hyphenated addresses?

As Andrew mentioned earlier, out here it is very common to have an address like 1-5 which means that one property is built across 3 blocks, so it's official address is "1 to 5", with no interpolation. Even numbers are on the other side of the road, so nobody is going to be looking here for 2 & 4.

Thanks

Graeme


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Re: We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

Andrew Harvey-3
In reply to this post by Colin Smale
On Wed, 19 Aug 2020 at 04:26, Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:
There are two use cases here: one is "what is the address of this building (or whatever)" and the other is the reverse situation: "where can I find number XXX". As long as we have tagging that is potentially ambiguous we won't be able to cover both.
 
In the US I know of cases where an apartment number can follow the street address, i.e. 10-321 meaning Street Address 10, apartment 321. In Europe I know of the suffix being used to indicate apartment number, or floor number - e.g. 379-3 meaning Street Address 379, Floor/Flat 3. Sometimes other characters are used for the floor/flat such as A/B/C or I/II/III - in these cases it is unambiguous because it is non-numeric. 
 
On the other hand using the "1-5" notation to indicate a range is pretty well understood in the UK at least. What it is missing is the "interpolation" value (even, odd, all).
 
So let us sort this mess out by defining:
1) that a hyphen indicates a range
2) sub-addresses like a floor or apartment number must not use the hyphen notation, but must be given in addr:unit

Agreed, in those cases when it's not a range but actually an apartment number or unit number addr:unit is best.
 
3) an address using the range syntax should indicate the interpolation scheme by means of addr:interpolation=*

The problem with this is addr:interpolation is currently defined as "Every nth house between the end nodes is represented by the interpolation way.", when mapping an address which uses a range, there is no start and end nodes, it's just a single address, you're not saying this range interpolates multiple addresses here, you're saying there is a single address and it's a range. In this case we don't need to record the addr:interpolation since the interpolated addresses don't actually exist (where exists means signposted).

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Re: We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

Jonathon Rossi
In reply to this post by Graeme Fitzpatrick
On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 9:28 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, 19 Aug 2020 at 05:51, Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
On the other hand using the "1-5" notation to indicate a range is pretty well understood in the UK at least. What it is missing is the "interpolation" value (even, odd, all).
So let us sort this mess out by defining:
1) that a hyphen indicates a range

Are there any other scenarios for hyphenated addresses?

As Andrew mentioned earlier, out here it is very common to have an address like 1-5 which means that one property is built across 3 blocks, so it's official address is "1 to 5", with no interpolation. Even numbers are on the other side of the road, so nobody is going to be looking here for 2 & 4.

Agreed. It is really common in Australian rural areas that the address number range is actually allocated to a single lot, not one per lot. Australia Post several decades ago allocated street numbers to every lot in the country that previously only had a lot number, lot numbers are now only acceptable until the street number is allocated by council. When this allocation occurred the street numbers were allocated for every 10 metres (left odd, right even, with other rules to determine the starting point), so if your lot started 1500m from the start of the street on the right side and had 500m of street frontage they'd have allocated your street number as 150-198. Australia Post expects that the street number range be used rather than just the first number no matter where your driveway is. It sounds like this is all defined in Rural Addressing in AS4819:2011, but the QLD Government link below has a short explanation similar to what I've said.


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Jono

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Re: We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

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In reply to this post by Colin Smale



18 Aug 2020, 23:29 by [hidden email]:

On 2020-08-18 22:39, Clay Smalley wrote:

If you

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 12:51 PM Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 2020-08-18 20:55, Clay Smalley wrote:

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 11:26 AM Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:
There are two use cases here: one is "what is the address of this building (or whatever)" and the other is the reverse situation: "where can I find number XXX". As long as we have tagging that is potentially ambiguous we won't be able to cover both.
In the US I know of cases where an apartment number can follow the street address, i.e. 10-321 meaning Street Address 10, apartment 321. In Europe I know of the suffix being used to indicate apartment number, or floor number - e.g. 379-3 meaning Street Address 379, Floor/Flat 3. Sometimes other characters are used for the floor/flat such as A/B/C or I/II/III - in these cases it is unambiguous because it is non-numeric.
Can you point out some examples? I've never seen that syntax used in US addresses.
If you mean the US example, some friends were living in Long Island City, Queens, NY, and their apartment address was something like 1100-157 50th Ave. The other examples are possibly typically European. Here in the Netherlands there are all kinds of notations in use for sub-units. The national addressing standard has a field for an alphanumeric "house number suffix" for this that people in IT know about, but the average Johan might not know what a "huisnummertoevoeging" is. Normally the full number, including the suffix, is written together with some kind of separator.
 
I think you misunderstand hyphenated addresses in Queens. The second part of the hyphenation is not a flat/apartment number. As an example, the Dunkin Donuts at the corner of 31st St and 36th Ave has an address of 31-02 36th Ave, with no apartment number. The US Postal Service considers this to be equivalent to 3102 36th Ave, and will deliver mail to the same place regardless of whether you include the hyphen, though the address written on the entrance is hyphenated. Most building numbers in Queens have a hyphen before the last two digits.
 
Thanks for the explanation.. It is indeed a while ago since I was there. Any idea how this is structured in IT systems? Is "house number" alphanumeric? Are the two parts stored separately? Or is it simply a question of formatting, inserting a "-" before the final two digits?
 
Maybe we should use a different character to indicate a range, such as a slash?
Slash is used in Poland to separate
housenumber from unit number.

For example 22/5 Streetname
would be house 22 at Streetname,
flat number 5.

Using it for range would be 
unbelievably confusing 

And at least some addresses are
in form addr:housenumber=1-3
denoting single housenumber,
not a range.

I added recently such example to
a Wiki page about addresses.

 
There are also areas where the whole neighbourhood has a single street name, and everybody has a very long house number; the initial digits of the house number indicate the specific road within the neighbourhood. Sometimes these house numbers are written as 123-45 to aid navigation.
 
Examples?
 


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Re: We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

Peter Elderson
In reply to this post by Tod Fitch-2
Two dots are used in some circles to indicate inclusive range. eg 21..27. 

Best, Peter Elderson


Op wo 19 aug. 2020 om 00:25 schreef Tod Fitch <[hidden email]>:

On Aug 18, 2020, at 2:29 PM, Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:


Maybe we should use a different character to indicate a range, such as a slash?
 

In the United States it is not too uncommon for infill housing in urban areas to have fractional street numbers. So you can see addresses like “123 1/2 North Main Street” for a building located between 123 and 125 (odd numbers are usually on one side of the street so 124 is not available in this example). I already am annoyed by QA checkers that flag that as an error. Defining a slash to mean something other that the, to me, obvious use as a fraction would make things worse.

Cheers,

Tod


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Re: We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

Sarah Hoffmann
In reply to this post by Colin Smale
On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 11:29:50PM +0200, Colin Smale wrote:

> I think you misunderstand hyphenated addresses in Queens. The second
> part of the hyphenation is not a flat/apartment number. As an example,
> the Dunkin Donuts at the corner of 31st St and 36th Ave has an address
> of 31-02 36th Ave, with no apartment number. The US Postal Service
> considers this to be equivalent to 3102 36th Ave, and will deliver mail
> to the same place regardless of whether you include the hyphen, though
> the address written on the entrance is hyphenated. Most building numbers
> in Queens have a hyphen before the last two digits.
>
> Thanks for the explanation.. It is indeed a while ago since I was there.
> Any idea how this is structured in IT systems? Is "house number"
> alphanumeric? Are the two parts stored separately? Or is it simply a
> question of formatting, inserting a "-" before the final two digits?
>
> Maybe we should use a different character to indicate a range, such as a
> slash?

No matter what character you suggest, there will be some place in the world
where that is a valid addition to a house number.

Lets be honest, the main reason why we keep discussing how to get a range into
the addr:housenumber tag is good old tagging for the renderer:
addr:housenumber gets rendered on the map, a different tag doesn't. I've
even had people arguing that they must use housenumber ranges because single
housenumbers do not fit the map[1]. This is a slippery slope to go down.
It makes the tag less and less useful for uses beyond rendering.

[1] https://github.com/osm-search/Nominatim/issues/565#issuecomment-315131285

I'm strongly in favour of coming up with a new tag for ranges on building/nodes.
I'd be happy to quickly add such a tag to be searchable and I'm sure it would also be
fairly simple to convince the carto people to add support for an additional tagging
schema here.

Martin's suggestion of addr:housenumber:start/addr:housenumber:end wasn't half way bad.
Something like addr:housenumber_range=<from>-<to> with an explicit definition of the
hyphen as separator would work as well but add the restriction that you can't have
hyphened housenumbers in interpolation ranges (probably rare enough to be okay).

We'd also need a new tag to indicate the interpolation steps odd/even/all. It's not really
a good idea to reuse addr:interpolation because on a building outline it becomes ambigious:
you'd have to check for the presence of other tags to figure out if the way denotes an
interpolation line or an address range on a building.

Sarah

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Re: We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

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Aug 19, 2020, 10:46 by [hidden email]:
On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 11:29:50PM +0200, Colin Smale wrote:
I think you misunderstand hyphenated addresses in Queens. The second
part of the hyphenation is not a flat/apartment number. As an example,
the Dunkin Donuts at the corner of 31st St and 36th Ave has an address
of 31-02 36th Ave, with no apartment number. The US Postal Service
considers this to be equivalent to 3102 36th Ave, and will deliver mail
to the same place regardless of whether you include the hyphen, though
the address written on the entrance is hyphenated. Most building numbers
in Queens have a hyphen before the last two digits.

Thanks for the explanation.. It is indeed a while ago since I was there.
Any idea how this is structured in IT systems? Is "house number"
alphanumeric? Are the two parts stored separately? Or is it simply a
question of formatting, inserting a "-" before the final two digits?

Maybe we should use a different character to indicate a range, such as a
slash?

No matter what character you suggest, there will be some place in the world
where that is a valid addition to a house number.

Lets be honest, the main reason why we keep discussing how to get a range into
the addr:housenumber tag is good old tagging for the renderer:
addr:housenumber gets rendered on the map, a different tag doesn't. I've
even had people arguing that they must use housenumber ranges because single
housenumbers do not fit the map[1]. This is a slippery slope to go down.
It makes the tag less and less useful for uses beyond rendering.

[1] https://github.com/osm-search/Nominatim/issues/565#issuecomment-315131285

I'm strongly in favour of coming up with a new tag for ranges on building/nodes.
I'd be happy to quickly add such a tag to be searchable and I'm sure it would also be
fairly simple to convince the carto people to add support for an additional tagging
schema here.

Martin's suggestion of addr:housenumber:start/addr:housenumber:end wasn't half way bad.
Something like addr:housenumber_range=<from>-<to> with an explicit definition of the
hyphen as separator would work as well but add the restriction that you can't have
hyphened housenumbers in interpolation ranges (probably rare enough to be okay).
And it may be useful to have tag to mark "yes this is actually a single housenumber despite
that includes hyphen or something else that suggests range" 
We'd also need a new tag to indicate the interpolation steps odd/even/all. It's not really
a good idea to reuse addr:interpolation because on a building outline it becomes ambigious:
you'd have to check for the presence of other tags to figure out if the way denotes an
interpolation line or an address range on a building.

Sarah

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