What is the role of "role=guidepost"

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What is the role of "role=guidepost"

voschix
I have only now detected this (optional?) role value in route relations.
What's the purpose of this?
Or put in other words: I have a node tagged with "information=guidepost". What is the difference between inserting it in a route relation with or without "role=guidepost"
I must be missing something because it has 50k uses.

Thanks

Volker

 

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Re: What is the role of "role=guidepost"

Andy Townsend
On 13/04/2019 09:52, Volker Schmidt wrote:
> I have only now detected this (optional?) role value in route relations.
> What's the purpose of this?
> Or put in other words: I have a node tagged with
> "information=guidepost". What is the difference between inserting it
> in a route relation with or without "role=guidepost"
>
Without a role you have no idea how a guidepost or route_marker relates
to the route as a whole.  Does it tell you how to go to the next bit? 
Is it the start or the finish?  Is it something else?  Also, it's
possible for one guidepost or route_marker to have different roles
within different routes.

Here's one locally that I've tried to annotate with roles:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6563955

(see https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=marker#roles for the
usage of those tags, or lack of them).

I suspect that "role=guidepost" is someone doing the same thing, but
only for guideposts.

Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: What is the role of "role=guidepost"

voschix
But your example is different. You put the function into the name field. For me the role of an object tagged information=guidepost is exactly that, a guidepost.  I am sure I am missing something, otherwise it would not have 50k uses.
I admit to being Overpass-ignorant. Can someone help me find examples, where a guidepost in a route relation has a role that is neither <empty> nor "guidepost. 

On Sat, 13 Apr 2019, 11:09 [hidden email], <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 13/04/2019 09:52, Volker Schmidt wrote:
> I have only now detected this (optional?) role value in route relations.
> What's the purpose of this?
> Or put in other words: I have a node tagged with
> "information=guidepost". What is the difference between inserting it
> in a route relation with or without "role=guidepost"
>
Without a role you have no idea how a guidepost or route_marker relates
to the route as a whole.  Does it tell you how to go to the next bit? 
Is it the start or the finish?  Is it something else?  Also, it's
possible for one guidepost or route_marker to have different roles
within different routes.

Here's one locally that I've tried to annotate with roles:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6563955

(see https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=marker#roles for the
usage of those tags, or lack of them).

I suspect that "role=guidepost" is someone doing the same thing, but
only for guideposts.

Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: What is the role of "role=guidepost"

Marián Kyral
Hi,
When I started mapping, someone told me that is good practice to set the role to guidepost. Despite that validators don't like it.
I think it could helps sometime. But I have no example for it.

Marián



But your example is different. You put the function into the name field. For me the role of an object tagged information=guidepost is exactly that, a guidepost.  I am sure I am missing something, otherwise it would not have 50k uses.
I admit to being Overpass-ignorant. Can someone help me find examples, where a guidepost in a route relation has a role that is neither <empty> nor "guidepost. 

On Sat, 13 Apr 2019, 11:09 [hidden email], <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 13/04/2019 09:52, Volker Schmidt wrote:
> I have only now detected this (optional?) role value in route relations.
> What's the purpose of this?
> Or put in other words: I have a node tagged with
> "information=guidepost". What is the difference between inserting it
> in a route relation with or without "role=guidepost"
>
Without a role you have no idea how a guidepost or route_marker relates
to the route as a whole.  Does it tell you how to go to the next bit? 
Is it the start or the finish?  Is it something else?  Also, it's
possible for one guidepost or route_marker to have different roles
within different routes.

Here's one locally that I've tried to annotate with roles:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6563955

(see https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=marker#roles for the
usage of those tags, or lack of them).

I suspect that "role=guidepost" is someone doing the same thing, but
only for guideposts.

Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: What is the role of "role=guidepost"

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by voschix


sent from a phone

> On 13. Apr 2019, at 12:06, Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> But your example is different. You put the function into the name field. For me the role of an object tagged information=guidepost is exactly that, a guidepost.  I am sure I am missing something, otherwise it would not have 50k uses.


I guess people are putting the guideposts into the relations because they feel they belong to the route, and they add the role so it becomes evident in the relation editor why there are node members.
It doesn’t seem to create problems, but it also doesn’t seem to add anything (provided there would not be objects acting as guideposts that aren’t guideposts)


Cheers, Martin
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Re: What is the role of "role=guidepost"

voschix
I would like to see clearer on that one, as we have just launched the collaboration between OSM and the Italian Alpine Club (CAI). And that collaboration will insert a large number of guideposts.
Anyone able to check how many information=guidepost without role=guidepost there are in route relations in the database (I still am a beginner at the level of Overpass turbo Wizard)

Volker

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On Sat, 13 Apr 2019 at 20:52, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


sent from a phone

> On 13. Apr 2019, at 12:06, Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> But your example is different. You put the function into the name field. For me the role of an object tagged information=guidepost is exactly that, a guidepost.  I am sure I am missing something, otherwise it would not have 50k uses.


I guess people are putting the guideposts into the relations because they feel they belong to the route, and they add the role so it becomes evident in the relation editor why there are node members.
It doesn’t seem to create problems, but it also doesn’t seem to add anything (provided there would not be objects acting as guideposts that aren’t guideposts)


Cheers, Martin
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Re: What is the role of "role=guidepost"

Sarah Hoffmann
Hi,

I'd argue that in most cases it is wrong to add the guidepost
at all to the route, with ot without role. They are not part of
the route they just happen to be along the side of it.

We don't add direction signs on motorways to a motorway relation
either just because the motorway happens to be mentioned on the
sign.

There are a couple of exceptions where adding the guidepost may
be valid (for example when they are official section markers
maybe even equipped with collection stamps) but then the role
is pretty much always something other than guidepost.

Kind regards

Sarah

On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 10:50:16PM +0200, Volker Schmidt wrote:

> I would like to see clearer on that one, as we have just launched the
> collaboration between OSM and the Italian Alpine Club (CAI). And that
> collaboration will insert a large number of guideposts.
> Anyone able to check how many information=guidepost without role=guidepost
> there are in route relations in the database (I still am a beginner at the
> level of Overpass turbo Wizard)
>
> Volker
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
> Virus-free.
> www.avast.com
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
> On Sat, 13 Apr 2019 at 20:52, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > sent from a phone
> >
> > > On 13. Apr 2019, at 12:06, Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > But your example is different. You put the function into the name field.
> > For me the role of an object tagged information=guidepost is exactly that,
> > a guidepost.  I am sure I am missing something, otherwise it would not have
> > 50k uses.
> >
> >
> > I guess people are putting the guideposts into the relations because they
> > feel they belong to the route, and they add the role so it becomes evident
> > in the relation editor why there are node members.
> > It doesn’t seem to create problems, but it also doesn’t seem to add
> > anything (provided there would not be objects acting as guideposts that
> > aren’t guideposts)
> >
> >
> > Cheers, Martin
> > _______________________________________________
> > Tagging mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> >

> _______________________________________________
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Re: What is the role of "role=guidepost"

Warin
At least some guide posts are to guide people along a particular route, particularly where a few paths meet, where the route diverges off the main path/road, or where there has been a long distance since the last guide post.

Some of these are simply small signs with symbols only, nailed to a farmers fence post or tree and may be easy to miss unless you are looking for them.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5817e87e414fb5c2f568ec3a/582948be5016e1a4d86f949d/582948f5579fb3ac54f56e95/1479879448958/HH_Gallery+-+31.jpg?format=1000w


Provided these are indicators of the route I think they should be included in the route relation.


On 14/04/19 07:19, Sarah Hoffmann wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'd argue that in most cases it is wrong to add the guidepost
> at all to the route, with ot without role. They are not part of
> the route they just happen to be along the side of it.
>
> We don't add direction signs on motorways to a motorway relation
> either just because the motorway happens to be mentioned on the
> sign.
>
> There are a couple of exceptions where adding the guidepost may
> be valid (for example when they are official section markers
> maybe even equipped with collection stamps) but then the role
> is pretty much always something other than guidepost.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Sarah
>
> On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 10:50:16PM +0200, Volker Schmidt wrote:
>> I would like to see clearer on that one, as we have just launched the
>> collaboration between OSM and the Italian Alpine Club (CAI). And that
>> collaboration will insert a large number of guideposts.
>> Anyone able to check how many information=guidepost without role=guidepost
>> there are in route relations in the database (I still am a beginner at the
>> level of Overpass turbo Wizard)
>>
>> Volker
>>
>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
>> Virus-free.
>> www.avast.com
>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
>> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>
>> On Sat, 13 Apr 2019 at 20:52, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> sent from a phone
>>>
>>>> On 13. Apr 2019, at 12:06, Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> But your example is different. You put the function into the name field.
>>> For me the role of an object tagged information=guidepost is exactly that,
>>> a guidepost.  I am sure I am missing something, otherwise it would not have
>>> 50k uses.
>>>
>>>
>>> I guess people are putting the guideposts into the relations because they
>>> feel they belong to the route, and they add the role so it becomes evident
>>> in the relation editor why there are node members.
>>> It doesn’t seem to create problems, but it also doesn’t seem to add
>>> anything (provided there would not be objects acting as guideposts that
>>> aren’t guideposts)
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers, Martin
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>


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Re: What is the role of "role=guidepost"

Peter Elderson
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
Loose guidepost nodes are a nuisance when processing route relations by hand or by software. On the other hand, you might argue that most routes are nothing else than imaginary lines between guideposts.

But I would say, practically, guideposts do not need to be in the route relation. If a guidepost is part of a route, it is also part of a way so the point location is already in there. No need to add it again. You could simply take an existing node or add one on the existing way, add some tags to it, if you want to enable special rendering or processing. If it's not on a way, it's also not part of a route. It just happens to be near.

Vr gr Peter Elderson


Op za 13 apr. 2019 om 20:52 schreef Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]>:


sent from a phone

> On 13. Apr 2019, at 12:06, Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> But your example is different. You put the function into the name field. For me the role of an object tagged information=guidepost is exactly that, a guidepost.  I am sure I am missing something, otherwise it would not have 50k uses.


I guess people are putting the guideposts into the relations because they feel they belong to the route, and they add the role so it becomes evident in the relation editor why there are node members.
It doesn’t seem to create problems, but it also doesn’t seem to add anything (provided there would not be objects acting as guideposts that aren’t guideposts)


Cheers, Martin
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Re: What is the role of "role=guidepost"

Warin
On 14/04/19 08:37, Peter Elderson wrote:
Loose guidepost nodes are a nuisance when processing route relations by hand or by software. On the other hand, you might argue that most routes are nothing else than imaginary lines between guideposts.

But I would say, practically, guideposts do not need to be in the route relation. If a guidepost is part of a route, it is also part of a way so the point location is already in there. No need to add it again.

A way can be used by several routes. The guidepost may only point or confirm one of those routes. Unless it is in the route relation it cannot be assumed to be part of that route.


You could simply take an existing node or add one on the existing way, add some tags to it, if you want to enable special rendering or processing. If it's not on a way, it's also not part of a route. It just happens to be near.

How close to the way does a node have to be to be considered as "on a way" ??
Usually a guide post is not centred in the way but off to one side so it can be mapped as a separate node that is not connected to the way, this provides more information and maps the truth compared to simply placing the node on the way. 


Vr gr Peter Elderson


Op za 13 apr. 2019 om 20:52 schreef Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]>:


sent from a phone

> On 13. Apr 2019, at 12:06, Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> But your example is different. You put the function into the name field. For me the role of an object tagged information=guidepost is exactly that, a guidepost.  I am sure I am missing something, otherwise it would not have 50k uses.


I guess people are putting the guideposts into the relations because they feel they belong to the route, and they add the role so it becomes evident in the relation editor why there are node members.
It doesn’t seem to create problems, but it also doesn’t seem to add anything (provided there would not be objects acting as guideposts that aren’t guideposts)


Cheers, Martin
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Re: What is the role of "role=guidepost"

Andy Townsend
In reply to this post by Peter Elderson
On 13/04/2019 23:37, Peter Elderson wrote:
>
> ... If a guidepost is part of a route, it is also part of a way so the
> point location is already in there.

In my experience that's generally not the case - guideposts and route
markers are usually added in there actual location (off to one side of
the path) rather than in an artificial location in the middle of the path.

Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: What is the role of "role=guidepost"

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Warin


sent from a phone

On 13. Apr 2019, at 23:45, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:

Some of these are simply small signs with symbols only, nailed to a farmers fence post or tree and may be easy to miss unless you are looking for them.



Cheers, Martin 

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Re: What is the role of "role=guidepost"

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by Peter Elderson
Apr 14, 2019, 12:37 AM by [hidden email]:
But I would say, practically, guideposts do not need to be in the route relation. If a guidepost is part of a route, it is also part of a way so the point location is already in there.
AFAIK most (many?) guideposts are not tagged this wat, but rather at their real location (that is
usually not in the middle of path).

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