What was the outcome of the discussion about C class roads with ref tags?

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What was the outcome of the discussion about C class roads with ref tags?

Dave F.
Hi

I seem to remember there was general consensus that C class roads
shouldn't have their reference number in the ref tag as they aren't
really for public use, such as on signs or maps, but the official use of
local councils etc.

It was suggested, therefore, to swap them to a tag like off_ref, or some
such similar. Was this agreed upon?

If there is consensus I personally think this would be a valid use of a
mass edit due to the large number http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/98Y Does
anyone have experience of doing such a auto edit?

Cheers
Dave F.



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Re: What was the outcome of the discussion about C class roads with ref tags?

Graham Jones-2

I don't know where the discussion got to, but thought I should point out that at least one road in North Yorkshire is a C road that is signposted as such.
The road here does have signs with the C designation.   http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/54.5696/-1.0016
I don't think I added it so at least one other person must agree!

Cheers

Graham

from my Phone (hence dodgy spelling!)

On 4 May 2015 01:20, "Dave F." <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi

I seem to remember there was general consensus that C class roads shouldn't have their reference number in the ref tag as they aren't really for public use, such as on signs or maps, but the official use of local councils etc.

It was suggested, therefore, to swap them to a tag like off_ref, or some such similar. Was this agreed upon?

If there is consensus I personally think this would be a valid use of a mass edit due to the large number http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/98Y Does anyone have experience of doing such a auto edit?

Cheers
Dave F.



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Re: What was the outcome of the discussion about C class roads with ref tags?

SomeoneElse-2
On 04/05/2015 08:35, Graham Jones wrote:
>
> I don't know where the discussion got to, but thought I should point
> out that at least one road in North Yorkshire is a C road that is
> signposted as such.
> The road here does have signs with the C designation.
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/54.5696/-1.0016
> I don't think I added it so at least one other person must agree!
>

The concensus I think is that if a road has had a "C" number added
purely as a bookkeeping reference by the council, but doesn't appear on
any signage, then a tag such as "official_ref" or "admin_ref" makes more
sense.  See previous discussions here:

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2013-April/thread.html#14788

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2014-August/thread.html#16392

(and others linked from those threads).

http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/search?q=ref

suggests more traction for "official_ref" over "admin_ref".


However yours looks more interesting than the usual OSM "C" road:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/25020986/history

It looks like it was previously a B road (OOC maps suggest the B1268)
and kept its number when it was downgraded.  If it's a real ref on a
real road sign I don't think that anyone would disagree with it being
tagged with a C road ref.

I've seen at least one other signposted one in North Yorkshire (north of
Castle Howard somewhere - I suspect there are more) so it's not unique.

Cheers,

Andy



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Re: What was the outcome of the discussion about C class roads with ref tags?

Bogus Zaba
In reply to this post by Dave F.
On 04/05/15 02:18, Dave F. wrote:

> Hi
>
> I seem to remember there was general consensus that C class roads
> shouldn't have their reference number in the ref tag as they aren't
> really for public use, such as on signs or maps, but the official use
> of local councils etc.
>
> It was suggested, therefore, to swap them to a tag like off_ref, or
> some such similar. Was this agreed upon?
>
> If there is consensus I personally think this would be a valid use of
> a mass edit due to the large number http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/98Y 
> Does anyone have experience of doing such a auto edit?
>
> Cheers
> Dave F.
If you go back in the archives of this list to 17/3/13 you will find a
discussion labelled "Refs on Tertiary and Unclassified Roads in
Highland". You will perhaps not be surprised to see that there is no
definitive outcome of the discussion but there are two suggestions (both
seem to me to be perfectly sound) for alternative tags to use instead of
"ref=" for these roads. The suggestions were "official:ref=" and
"official_ref=". I made a suggestion that we could use "local:ref=" but
nobody seemed to think this was worth supporting. My reasoning was that
these road references are maintained at a local level by Councils and
have no national significance.

Anyway I think that either of the tags which incorporate the word
"official" seem to be acceptable.

bogzab

--
Dr Bogumil N Zaba


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Re: What was the outcome of the discussion about C class roads with ref tags?

Philip Barnes
In reply to this post by Graham Jones-2
On Mon, 2015-05-04 at 08:35 +0100, Graham Jones wrote:
> I don't know where the discussion got to, but thought I should point
> out that at least one road in North Yorkshire is a C road that is
> signposted as such.
> The road here does have signs with the C designation.
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/54.5696/-1.0016
> I don't think I added it so at least one other person must agree!

That will probably only last until the council realise and order a new
sign, there is government guidance to councils that these numbers should
not be used on signs. A satnav saying to turn onto the Cxxxx when it is
not signed makes OSM look quirky to bad to someone who has just
downloaded an app from the app store.

In this case if you have surveyed it and it is signed then it would be
helpful if it was tagged as signed=yes, or something similar.
SomeoneElse I think he has used similar tagging for unsigned A roads.

One obvious reason for not using C/D/U references is that they are not
unique, the number will be reused in different counties which would be
confusing. We would end up with a similar problems as France has after
turning most of their N (National) roads to D (Departmental) where
nearly every route now involves the D1 at some stage. Was so much easier
before they changed it.

I did do a test edit on changing ref=C/D/U to official_ref, however I
reverted it after some problems mostly with path number continuing onto
roads (which never happens) and I had not created a wiki page (have no
idea how to do that), just had general agreement here.

I have been surveying out the ones in Wrexham, but that takes time. I do
know that the guy who added them worked for the council, I suspect
Norfolk and Pembrokeshire are similar, I did no see any signed C roads
in Pembrokeshire last year.

I would like to see this issue resolved, obviously surveying is just too
big a task for a community of this size, so a mechanical edit is the
only way.



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Re: What was the outcome of the discussion about C class roads with ref tags?

sdoerr
In reply to this post by Graham Jones-2
I once saw some friends on Facebook discussing the state of a road local to them in Dorset, and they referred to it by its C number throughout. Personally, I quite like the fact that our map has C numbers on where other maps don't. What I don't like, though, is seeing U numbers for unclassified roads, which are cluttering up the map of my home area (http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/51.42292/0.34775).

Steve

On 04/05/2015 08:35, Graham Jones wrote:

I don't know where the discussion got to, but thought I should point out that at least one road in North Yorkshire is a C road that is signposted as such.
The road here does have signs with the C designation.   http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/54.5696/-1.0016
I don't think I added it so at least one other person must agree!

Cheers

Graham

from my Phone (hence dodgy spelling!)

On 4 May 2015 01:20, "Dave F." <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi

I seem to remember there was general consensus that C class roads shouldn't have their reference number in the ref tag as they aren't really for public use, such as on signs or maps, but the official use of local councils etc.

It was suggested, therefore, to swap them to a tag like off_ref, or some such similar. Was this agreed upon?

If there is consensus I personally think this would be a valid use of a mass edit due to the large number http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/98Y Does anyone have experience of doing such a auto edit?

Cheers
Dave F.



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Re: What was the outcome of the discussion about C class roads with ref tags?

SomeoneElse-2
In reply to this post by Philip Barnes
On 04/05/2015 10:50, Philip Barnes wrote:
> In this case if you have surveyed it and it is signed then it would be
> helpful if it was tagged as signed=yes, or something similar.
> SomeoneElse I think he has used similar tagging for unsigned A roads.

FWIW I've used "name:signed=no" and "ref:signed=no" where appropriate,
but there's no concensus around that:

http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/keys/ref%3Asigned#overview

http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/keys/name%3Asigned#overview

Cheers,

Andy


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Re: What was the outcome of the discussion about C class roads with ref tags?

SomeoneElse-2
In reply to this post by sdoerr
On 04/05/2015 11:10, Steve Doerr wrote:
Personally, I quite like the fact that our map has C numbers on where other maps don't. What I don't like, though, is seeing U numbers for unclassified roads, which are cluttering up the map of my home area (http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/51.42292/0.34775).

... what _I_ like is the ability to create a map that shows whatever I want it to show!

I certainly don't see the "standard" style as "our map" (singular) - it's just one of many and these days isn't particularly useful for what I normally use a map for.  That doesn't mean that it isn't a good compromise though - there can't be "one perfect style for every possible use".

Cheers,

Andy


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Re: What was the outcome of the discussion about C class roads with ref tags?

Dave F.
In reply to this post by sdoerr
Well, the C refs are "are cluttering up the map of my home area" (& others, by the sound of it). I recently used a screen grab of the area in my OP. I got more replies about the displaying of the C refs than what I was actually trying to describe - It just confused people.

It's not removing the data just reassigning it to a more appropriate tag. A render displaying them can still be created. As I said, if they're just used for authorities internally, then I don't see their relevance on the 'standard' map.

Dave F.



On 04/05/2015 11:10, Steve Doerr wrote:
I once saw some friends on Facebook discussing the state of a road local to them in Dorset, and they referred to it by its C number throughout. Personally, I quite like the fact that our map has C numbers on where other maps don't. What I don't like, though, is seeing U numbers for unclassified roads, which are cluttering up the map of my home area (http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/51.42292/0.34775).

Steve

On 04/05/2015 08:35, Graham Jones wrote:

I don't know where the discussion got to, but thought I should point out that at least one road in North Yorkshire is a C road that is signposted as such.
The road here does have signs with the C designation.   http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/54.5696/-1.0016
I don't think I added it so at least one other person must agree!

Cheers

Graham

from my Phone (hence dodgy spelling!)

On 4 May 2015 01:20, "Dave F." <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi

I seem to remember there was general consensus that C class roads shouldn't have their reference number in the ref tag as they aren't really for public use, such as on signs or maps, but the official use of local councils etc.

It was suggested, therefore, to swap them to a tag like off_ref, or some such similar. Was this agreed upon?

If there is consensus I personally think this would be a valid use of a mass edit due to the large number http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/98Y Does anyone have experience of doing such a auto edit?

Cheers
Dave F.



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Re: What was the outcome of the discussion about C class roads with ref tags?

Dave F.
In reply to this post by Philip Barnes
On 04/05/2015 10:50, Philip Barnes wrote:
> I did do a test edit on changing ref=C/D/U to official_ref, however I
> reverted it after some problems mostly with path number continuing onto
> roads (which never happens)

There needs to be adequate verifying which is why it should be done by
someone with previous experience of mech edits.

Things to test for:
Is it a tertiary way
Does it have a ref that starts with 'C'
Is it followed by a number?
Is the number < 4 characters (unsure if there are any with 4 digits)
Does it already have a 'official_ref' tag?
etc

If there are tertiary ways that don't meet the above criteria they
should be listed in some form of text file for individual editing if
appropriate.

Dave F.

> and I had not created a wiki page (have no
> idea how to do that), just had general agreement here.
>
> I have been surveying out the ones in Wrexham, but that takes time. I do
> know that the guy who added them worked for the council, I suspect
> Norfolk and Pembrokeshire are similar, I did no see any signed C roads
> in Pembrokeshire last year.
>
> I would like to see this issue resolved, obviously surveying is just too
> big a task for a community of this size, so a mechanical edit is the
> only way.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-GB mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb


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Re: What was the outcome of the discussion about C class roads with ref tags?

Neil Matthews
> If there are tertiary ways that don't meet the above criteria they
> should be listed in some form of text file for individual editing if
> appropriate.

Where does this text file live? Better to add notes to the map / fixmes
to the data.

Neil


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Re: What was the outcome of the discussion about C class roads with ref tags?

Paul Berry
I would have thought lists like this should be on the Wiki, even if they don't make it to the map.

Regards,
Paul

On Sun, 23 Sep 2018 at 21:34, Neil Matthews <[hidden email]> wrote:
> If there are tertiary ways that don't meet the above criteria they
> should be listed in some form of text file for individual editing if
> appropriate.

Where does this text file live? Better to add notes to the map / fixmes
to the data.

Neil


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Re: What was the outcome of the discussion about C class roads with ref tags?

Stuart Reynolds
[Side question, albeit not totally off-topic]

Out of curiosity, I understand what a C road is, conceptually, but what might an “MC” designation mean? E.g. https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/426675505

Regards,
Stuart




On 24 Sep 2018, at 09:30, Paul Berry <[hidden email]> wrote:

I would have thought lists like this should be on the Wiki, even if they don't make it to the map.

Regards,
Paul

On Sun, 23 Sep 2018 at 21:34, Neil Matthews <[hidden email]> wrote:
> If there are tertiary ways that don't meet the above criteria they
> should be listed in some form of text file for individual editing if
> appropriate.

Where does this text file live? Better to add notes to the map / fixmes
to the data.

Neil


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Re: What was the outcome of the discussion about C class roads with ref tags?

sdoerr

The same thing, by the looks of it: https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=Buckinghamshire_Council#Classified_Unnumbered_.28Class_III.29_and_Unclassified_Roads


Steve


On 24/09/2018 09:34, Stuart Reynolds wrote:
[Side question, albeit not totally off-topic]

Out of curiosity, I understand what a C road is, conceptually, but what might an “MC” designation mean? E.g. https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/426675505

Regards,
Stuart




On 24 Sep 2018, at 09:30, Paul Berry <[hidden email]> wrote:

I would have thought lists like this should be on the Wiki, even if they don't make it to the map.

Regards,
Paul

On Sun, 23 Sep 2018 at 21:34, Neil Matthews <[hidden email]> wrote:
> If there are tertiary ways that don't meet the above criteria they
> should be listed in some form of text file for individual editing if
> appropriate.

Where does this text file live? Better to add notes to the map / fixmes
to the data.

Neil


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Re: What was the outcome of the discussion about C class roads with ref tags?

Mark Goodge
In reply to this post by Stuart Reynolds


On 24/09/2018 09:34, Stuart Reynolds wrote:
> [Side question, albeit not totally off-topic]
>
> Out of curiosity, I understand what a C road is, conceptually, but what
> might an “MC” designation mean? E.g.
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/426675505

It's a local designation for what are more commonly known as C roads.
See, for example:

https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=MC17_(Buckinghamshire)

https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=Buckinghamshire_Council

Mark

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