Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

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Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

NopMap

There seems to be an edit war on the wiki page
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Avoid_semi-colon_value_separator

I personally think that the problem has been discussed many times and it is well understood that semicolon lists only work for some special tags and would generally be discarded as invalid values. Some of the more tricky problems like undefined order are harder to grasp. So making the problem as clear as possible in the wiki has its merits.

However, the changes were somewhat extreme - especially the change of the page name would rather be hiding information. And they are not backed up by a link to any discussion.

On the other hand, just reverting them does not feel right to me either. Some of the examples have their merit.

What do you think?

bye, Nop
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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

Martin Vonwald (Imagic)
I support the revert. The edits by Xxzme are in my opinion completely unacceptable.

Best regards,
Martin

2015-01-19 11:03 GMT+01:00 NopMap <[hidden email]>:

There seems to be an edit war on the wiki page
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Avoid_semi-colon_value_separator

I personally think that the problem has been discussed many times and it is
well understood that semicolon lists only work for some special tags and
would generally be discarded as invalid values. Some of the more tricky
problems like undefined order are harder to grasp. So making the problem as
clear as possible in the wiki has its merits.

However, the changes were somewhat extreme - especially the change of the
page name would rather be hiding information. And they are not backed up by
a link to any discussion.

On the other hand, just reverting them does not feel right to me either.
Some of the examples have their merit.

What do you think?

bye, Nop




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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

Frederik Ramm
In reply to this post by NopMap
Hi,

On 01/19/2015 11:03 AM, NopMap wrote:
> On the other hand, just reverting them does not feel right to me either.
> Some of the examples have their merit.

Revert the lot (which has been already done) and then step by step weave
in the examples that have merit, in a neutral language (i.e. not "some
mappers still use..." etc.)

Bye
Frederik

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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

moltonel 3x Combo
In reply to this post by NopMap
On 19/01/2015, NopMap <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> There seems to be an edit war on the wiki page
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Avoid_semi-colon_value_separator
>
> I personally think that the problem has been discussed many times and it is
> well understood that semicolon lists only work for some special tags and
> would generally be discarded as invalid values. Some of the more tricky
> problems like undefined order are harder to grasp. So making the problem as
> clear as possible in the wiki has its merits.
>
> However, the changes were somewhat extreme - especially the change of the
> page name would rather be hiding information. And they are not backed up by
> a link to any discussion.
>
> On the other hand, just reverting them does not feel right to me either.
> Some of the examples have their merit.
>
> What do you think?

Disclaimer: I lean in the "avoid semicolons" camp but am not hard-set
against them.

That doesn't look like an all-out edit war yet (as of 02:14, 18
January 2015), just user xxzme doing a few edits in a row to make the
page much more onesided than it was, and user Aseerel4c26 returning
some level-headedness and neutrality to the matter. Only if we start
seeing more blind reverts and re-reverts will it be an issue.

For what it's worth (and keeping in mind my disclaimer), I think the
page as it stands right now (02:14, 18 January 2015) is pretty
decent.It lacks the mention of "numbered keys" schemes, but otherwise
presents all the info nicely.

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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

Paul Johnson-3
On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 4:27 AM, moltonel 3x Combo <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 19/01/2015, NopMap <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> There seems to be an edit war on the wiki page
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Avoid_semi-colon_value_separator
>
> I personally think that the problem has been discussed many times and it is
> well understood that semicolon lists only work for some special tags and
> would generally be discarded as invalid values. Some of the more tricky
> problems like undefined order are harder to grasp. So making the problem as
> clear as possible in the wiki has its merits.
>
> However, the changes were somewhat extreme - especially the change of the
> page name would rather be hiding information. And they are not backed up by
> a link to any discussion.
>
> On the other hand, just reverting them does not feel right to me either.
> Some of the examples have their merit.
>
> What do you think?

Disclaimer: I lean in the "avoid semicolons" camp but am not hard-set
against them.

I'm curious how this is going to work given that route relations aren't universally replacing tagging road refs on the underlying ways yet, as these are frequently multiplexed in North America (at pretty much every level) and Europe (particularly with E routes), and there seems to be some opposition to fixing this by moving refs to relations still for Europe reasons that don't seem to be applicable at all (because of the E route situation causing multiplexes there anyway).


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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

Richard Z.
In reply to this post by NopMap
On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 03:03:21AM -0700, NopMap wrote:

> On the other hand, just reverting them does not feel right to me either.
> Some of the examples have their merit.
>
> What do you think?

so lets look at the points that were reverted:

##== Disadvantages of semicolon separated lists ==

##* parsing of values is required

sure parsing is required. How terribly difficult is it to split
a string by ";"?
 
##* uncertainty if order is important: {{tag|example|value1;value2}} vs {{tag|example|value2;value1}}. Should data consumers threat them differently? Very few ''mappers who use semicolon'' care to define this.
         
one of the reasons of the existence of multivalued entries is that the
mapper could not decide what is more important.
Data consumers are not required to be smarter than the mapper but specialised
consumers could pick the value they care about.

##* insane complexity when using simple querying tools ([[JOSM/Search function|JOSM search]], [[OverpassQL]]) <!-- can't think about good example ATM -->

is it really so hard? In most cases not even regexps are required.
 
##* prone to errors and they are hard to detect without parsing of values. In contrast to this, if you make mistake in [[key]] it will be easily detected by users of [[Taginfo]] and we may correct tags planetwide.

I would be curious to know if it would be hard to change taginfo to offer
alternative views to multivalued entries.

Richard



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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

jgpacker
In reply to this post by NopMap
I understand that the main tags of an object should avoid using semicolons to make map renderer's life easier, but I don't think only exceptional tags should use it and think most lists of values should be separated by semicolon.

Particularly, I don't see how the example given in the page is better.

I.e. How is this:
>  amenity=library
>  library:stock=books;newspapers;recorded_music

better than this?:
>  amenity=library
>  library:stock:books=yes
>  library:stock:newspapers=yes
>  library:stock:recorded_music=yes

As a programmer, I find the first alternative to be easier to handle by a data consumer. And while it could be slightly easier for a mapper to visualize the second alternative (and this is debatable), it would take longer to write it down.

So I definitely disagree with "In general avoid ';' separated values whenever possible." (as it's said in the wiki right now).
I only agree with avoiding semicolons in "main" tags or in tags that logically shouldn't have multiple values.

Cheers,
John
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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

Martin Vonwald (Imagic)
Hi!

2015-01-19 12:34 GMT+01:00 jgpacker <[hidden email]>:
I.e. How is this:
>  amenity=library
>  library:stock=books;newspapers;recorded_music

better than this?:
>  amenity=library
>  library:stock:books=yes
>  library:stock:newspapers=yes
>  library:stock:recorded_music=yes

As a programmer, I find the first alternative to be easier to handle by a
data consumer. And while it could be slightly easier for a mapper to
visualize the second alternative (and this is debatable), it would take
longer to write it down.

If I had to guess, I would think that most people find the second alternative much more complicated than the first one.

 
So I definitely disagree with "In general avoid ';' separated values
whenever possible." (as it's said in the wiki right now).
I only agree with avoiding semicolons in "main" tags or in tags that
logically shouldn't have multiple values.

Fully agree!


Best regards,
Martin

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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

jgpacker
> If I had to guess, I would think that most people find the second alternative much more complicated than the first one.

Oops, my bad; that's actually what I meant. I agree with you.
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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

Martin Vonwald (Imagic)


2015-01-19 13:01 GMT+01:00 jgpacker <[hidden email]>:
> If I had to guess, I would think that most people find the second
alternative much more complicated than the first one.

Oops, my bad; that's actually what I meant. I agree with you.

I understood you that way and just wanted to add one more voice. Next time I simply write: +1.

Keep it simple ;-)
Martin


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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

Jo-2
In reply to this post by jgpacker
This is what I used when I was integrating bus stops:

route_ref="(^|.+;)26(;.+|$)" inview odbl=new

26 is the line for which I wanted to find stops (among 40000). JOSM supports regex searches, tick that box.
The odbl tag is only used because it will be discarded automatically before uploading the data. Of course I have a MapCSS style which shows me the stops still having such a tag in a different way, so I could keep track of my progress.

So not, it's not terribly hard to work with semi-colon separated lists.

Cheers,

Jo



2015-01-19 13:01 GMT+01:00 jgpacker <[hidden email]>:
> If I had to guess, I would think that most people find the second
alternative much more complicated than the first one.

Oops, my bad; that's actually what I meant. I agree with you.



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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

jgpacker
> route_ref="(^|.+;)26(;.+|$)"
I haven't tested this, but usually you can safely remove the ".+", shortening it to route_ref="(^|;)26(;|$)"  i.e. start of string OR semicolon, followed by 26, followed by end of string OR semicolon.
You can further shorten it to route_ref="26" if you don't need to make sure that it's only 26 instead of X26, 26Y, X26Y or similar (which I believe is more common in semicolon-separated lists that are not numbers).

I still find it better than to search in JOSM for something like
route_ref:"^26$" OR route_ref1:"^26$" OR route_ref2:"^26$"
Yes, you would need to explicitly search for every alternative because most tools don't have support for regexes in the left side of the tag (i.e. the key).

Cheers,
John
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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

Friedrich Volkmann
In reply to this post by jgpacker
On 19.01.2015 12:34, jgpacker wrote:

> I understand that the main tags of an object should avoid using semicolons to
> make map renderer's life easier, but I don't think only exceptional tags
> should use it and think most lists of values should be separated by
> semicolon.
>
> Particularly, I don't see how the example given in the page is better.
>
> I.e. How is this:
>>  amenity=library
>>  library:stock=books;newspapers;recorded_music
>
> better than this?:
>>  amenity=library
>>  library:stock:books=yes
>>  library:stock:newspapers=yes
>>  library:stock:recorded_music=yes
>
> As a programmer, I find the first alternative to be easier to handle by a
> data consumer. And while it could be slightly easier for a mapper to
> visualize the second alternative (and this is debatable), it would take
> longer to write it down.

I even find the second example more difficult to visualize. It's just worse
than the first in every respect.

> So I definitely disagree with "In general avoid ';' separated values
> whenever possible." (as it's said in the wiki right now).
> I only agree with avoiding semicolons in "main" tags or in tags that
> logically shouldn't have multiple values.

I don't see why semicolons should be avoided in main tags. Let's take the
amenity=cafe;bar example given on the wiki page. A renderer (which must be
aware of semicolon notation anyway!) only needs to take the first value,
while a search engine may take both. Say, if you are searching for the
nearest bar, you want it to return that establishment as the first item. But
it's fine if it's titled as a cafe.

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Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria

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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

Никита
Wow. Quality of discussion here.

I even find the second example more difficult to visualize. It's just worse than the first in every respect

payment=efectivo;visa;mastercard;american␣express
payment=mastercard;visa;efectivo

Now try to find efectivo with your regexes.

If you want to tell me something about /.*efectivo.*/ you have no idea what OSM about and how regexes work. Say hello to

payment=mastercard;visa;efectivonotinspain

There programmers out there but I'm an idiot and cannot teach how to write REGEX to casual user. They are true heros OSM need: http://xkcd.com/208/.

How to query for "payment:efectivo"="yes"? I definitely need regex here. Please, help me!


2015-01-21 4:58 GMT+03:00 Friedrich Volkmann <[hidden email]>:
On 19.01.2015 12:34, jgpacker wrote:
> I understand that the main tags of an object should avoid using semicolons to
> make map renderer's life easier, but I don't think only exceptional tags
> should use it and think most lists of values should be separated by
> semicolon.
>
> Particularly, I don't see how the example given in the page is better.
>
> I.e. How is this:
>>  amenity=library
>>  library:stock=books;newspapers;recorded_music
>
> better than this?:
>>  amenity=library
>>  library:stock:books=yes
>>  library:stock:newspapers=yes
>>  library:stock:recorded_music=yes
>
> As a programmer, I find the first alternative to be easier to handle by a
> data consumer. And while it could be slightly easier for a mapper to
> visualize the second alternative (and this is debatable), it would take
> longer to write it down.

I even find the second example more difficult to visualize. It's just worse
than the first in every respect.

> So I definitely disagree with "In general avoid ';' separated values
> whenever possible." (as it's said in the wiki right now).
> I only agree with avoiding semicolons in "main" tags or in tags that
> logically shouldn't have multiple values.

I don't see why semicolons should be avoided in main tags. Let's take the
amenity=cafe;bar example given on the wiki page. A renderer (which must be
aware of semicolon notation anyway!) only needs to take the first value,
while a search engine may take both. Say, if you are searching for the
nearest bar, you want it to return that establishment as the first item. But
it's fine if it's titled as a cafe.

--
Friedrich K. Volkmann       http://www.volki.at/
Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria

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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

Friedrich Volkmann
In reply to this post by Richard Z.
On 19.01.2015 12:10, Richard Z. wrote:
> ##== Disadvantages of semicolon separated lists ==
>
> ##* parsing of values is required
>
> sure parsing is required. How terribly difficult is it to split
> a string by ";"?

It's trivial.

Xxzme is one of those mappers who try to design tagging rules which simplify
software development, by making assumptions instead of asking those who
know. The resulting tagging rules are actually a burden for both mappers and
developers alike. People like him would better focus on aspects they are
familiar with. OSM is a collaborative project after all.

--
Friedrich K. Volkmann       http://www.volki.at/
Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria

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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

Никита
> Friedrich Volkmann 

Ad hominem. Wow. You are so low. 

>, by making assumptions instead of asking those who know.
This is called data analys. Statistics. Numbers. There nobody to ask if users prefer one method over another.

>The resulting tagging rules are actually a burden for both mappers and developers alike.

Have you ever seen what resulted opening_hours? Do you have at least slight idea how many hours were spent on this library https://github.com/AMDmi3/opening_hours.js?

You are not only ignorant but annoying person. There no place for your proganda or your unjustified claims.

>OSM is a collaborative project after all. 
And you are egoiste who poison OSM database with garbage data. Unusable by other mappers or developers.

2015-01-21 5:37 GMT+03:00 Friedrich Volkmann <[hidden email]>:
On 19.01.2015 12:10, Richard Z. wrote:
> ##== Disadvantages of semicolon separated lists ==
>
> ##* parsing of values is required
>
> sure parsing is required. How terribly difficult is it to split
> a string by ";"?

It's trivial.

Xxzme is one of those mappers who try to design tagging rules which simplify
software development, by making assumptions instead of asking those who
know. The resulting tagging rules are actually a burden for both mappers and
developers alike. People like him would better focus on aspects they are
familiar with. OSM is a collaborative project after all.

--
Friedrich K. Volkmann       http://www.volki.at/
Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria

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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

Friedrich Volkmann
In reply to this post by Никита
On 21.01.2015 02:51, Никита wrote:
> payment=efectivo;visa;mastercard;american␣express
> payment=mastercard;visa;efectivo
>
> Now try to find *efectivo *with your regexes.

With a perl regex:
^[^=]+=(.*;)?\s*efectivo\s*(;.*)?$

Usually you only have the value in your variable, so you only need:
^(.*;)?\s*efectivo\s*(;.*)?$

But it's better programming style to split the values into arrays before you
work with them, like (in perl):
$_->{single_vals} = split /;/, $_->{compound_val} for keys @tags;

Then you need no regexp at all for your comparisons.

> How to query for "payment:efectivo"="yes"? I definitely need regex here.

You have to be aware of values like "1", "true", "unknown" etc.

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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

Никита
You don't know regexes and theory behind them. I don't care about your one-line perl hacks.
You will never teach your ugly hacks to to OSM users. You are insane to write these things as argument for using ";".
You will always fail when I add more data to database. There always pattern that will broke your regex. But you are guy with rope.


I just an idiot who knows that literal sting "payment:efectivo"="yes" requires no computational power other than index search.
There no regex to write for "payment:efectivo"="yes" at all. JOSM and overpass will understand this query right now, without any modification.



You have to be aware of values like "1", "true", "unknown" etc.
SO WHAT? How this is relevant to ''';" usage in value at all? Have you ever seen numbers in database? Do you too busy with your regexes? What are you talking about?


2015-01-21 6:13 GMT+03:00 Friedrich Volkmann <[hidden email]>:
On 21.01.2015 02:51, Никита wrote:
> payment=efectivo;visa;mastercard;american␣express
> payment=mastercard;visa;efectivo
>
> Now try to find *efectivo *with your regexes.

With a perl regex:
^[^=]+=(.*;)?\s*efectivo\s*(;.*)?$

Usually you only have the value in your variable, so you only need:
^(.*;)?\s*efectivo\s*(;.*)?$

But it's better programming style to split the values into arrays before you
work with them, like (in perl):
$_->{single_vals} = split /;/, $_->{compound_val} for keys @tags;

Then you need no regexp at all for your comparisons.

> How to query for "payment:efectivo"="yes"? I definitely need regex here.

You have to be aware of values like "1", "true", "unknown" etc.

--
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Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria

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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

Friedrich Volkmann
On 21.01.2015 03:59, Никита wrote:
> You don't know regexes and theory behind them. [...] There always pattern
> that will broke your regex.

E.g.?

> You will never teach your ugly hacks to to OSM users.

Probably because these are for developers, not for users.

--
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Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria

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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

Никита
>E.g.?
Well you actually smart person out there. Please query for features that support bitcoins or coins as currency 


Now try to query for only with bitcoin without litecoin tag:
"payment:bitcoint"=* and "payment:litecoin"!=*

Now try to qurery only for features without regular coins:
("payment:bitcoint"=* or "payment:litecoin"=*) and "payment:coint"!=*

If really that dumb to answer questions above using regex, please write an regex to filter email address from plain text.

Probably because these are for developers, not for users.
Nonsense like any of your words. 

How taginfo is for developers?

How wiki page is for developers?

2015-01-21 9:39 GMT+03:00 Friedrich Volkmann <[hidden email]>:
On 21.01.2015 03:59, Никита wrote:
> You don't know regexes and theory behind them. [...] There always pattern
> that will broke your regex.

E.g.?

> You will never teach your ugly hacks to to OSM users.

Probably because these are for developers, not for users.

--
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Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria

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