Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

Martin Vonwald (Imagic)
2015-01-21 7:35 GMT+01:00 Никита <[hidden email]>:
Probably because these are for developers, not for users.
Nonsense like any of your words.

Stop it right here! This is now really enough! If you are completely unwilling to accept other peoples opinion, OSM is _not_for_you_!

Friedrich clearly demonstrated that it can be done and that no magic is involved.

P.S: I want to disagree with "...not for users". It is "... not for users, which are unwilling to communicate and ask for help". Friedrich gave you examples how to do it. Document it and every "user" can now do it.

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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

David Bannon-2
In reply to this post by Никита
On Wed, 2015-01-21 at 09:35 +0300, Никита wrote:

> Well you actually smart person out there. Please query for features
> that support bitcoins or coins as currency ....

Come on please ! This is getting quite silly.

regexes are a basic part of the *nix and therefore internet world. Sure
they are cryptic and hard to deal with by those who don't regularly use
them but if we stopped regexe right now a lot more than OSM would stop
working !

Никита, you really need to accept regexe is a widely used technology and
one you really are not going to stamp out.

David

>
>
> <a href="http://overpass-turbo.eu/?w=%22payment:coins%22=%22yes%22%20or%20%">http://overpass-turbo.eu/?w=%22payment:coins%22=%22yes%22%20or%20%
> 22payment:bitcoin%22=%22yes%22
>
>
>
> Now try to query for only with bitcoin without litecoin tag:
> "payment:bitcoint"=* and "payment:litecoin"!=*
>
>
>
> Now try to qurery only for features without regular coins:
> ("payment:bitcoint"=* or "payment:litecoin"=*) and "payment:coint"!=*
>
>
>
> If really that dumb to answer questions above using regex, please
> write an regex to filter email address from plain text.
>
>
> > Probably because these are for developers, not for users.
> Nonsense like any of your words.
>
>
> How taginfo is for developers?
> http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/payment%3Acoins#values
>
>
>
> How wiki page is for developers?
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:payment:coins&redirect=no
>
>
> 2015-01-21 9:39 GMT+03:00 Friedrich Volkmann <[hidden email]>:
>         On 21.01.2015 03:59, Никита wrote:
>         > You don't know regexes and theory behind them. [...] There
>         always pattern
>         > that will broke your regex.
>        
>         E.g.?
>        
>         > You will never teach your ugly hacks to to OSM users.
>        
>         Probably because these are for developers, not for users.
>        
>         --
>         Friedrich K. Volkmann       http://www.volki.at/
>         Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria
>        
>         _______________________________________________
>         Tagging mailing list
>         [hidden email]
>         https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>        
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

Никита
Никита, you really need to accept regexe is a widely used technology and one you really are not going to stamp out.
You missing the point. I do aware of POSIX standard. I do aware of perl quirks and overengineered regex syntax.

JOSM uses Java. There no "command line wiht perl" in Java. STOP your insane perl advocating. FIRST you teach users who use JOSM and ID who to use regexes LATER we will listen to you.

If you trying to parse name=school with any regex to map it as amenity=school you are wrong. OSM is not for you.
If you trying to parse currency=bitcoin;coin for coin, then stop it right now. You have no idea how regexes or tags in osm work.


I don't really care if tagging pracites among English-speaking users so undeveloped and pathetic. Actually I don't care if English speaking world will not have tools to use data they enter.


2015-01-21 10:53 GMT+03:00 David Bannon <[hidden email]>:
On Wed, 2015-01-21 at 09:35 +0300, Никита wrote:

> Well you actually smart person out there. Please query for features
> that support bitcoins or coins as currency ....

Come on please ! This is getting quite silly.

regexes are a basic part of the *nix and therefore internet world. Sure
they are cryptic and hard to deal with by those who don't regularly use
them but if we stopped regexe right now a lot more than OSM would stop
working !

Никита, you really need to accept regexe is a widely used technology and
one you really are not going to stamp out.

David

>
>
> <a href="http://overpass-turbo.eu/?w=%22payment:coins%22=%22yes%22%20or%20%" target="_blank">http://overpass-turbo.eu/?w=%22payment:coins%22=%22yes%22%20or%20%
> 22payment:bitcoin%22=%22yes%22
>
>
>
> Now try to query for only with bitcoin without litecoin tag:
> "payment:bitcoint"=* and "payment:litecoin"!=*
>
>
>
> Now try to qurery only for features without regular coins:
> ("payment:bitcoint"=* or "payment:litecoin"=*) and "payment:coint"!=*
>
>
>
> If really that dumb to answer questions above using regex, please
> write an regex to filter email address from plain text.
>
>
> > Probably because these are for developers, not for users.
> Nonsense like any of your words.
>
>
> How taginfo is for developers?
> http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/payment%3Acoins#values
>
>
>
> How wiki page is for developers?
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:payment:coins&redirect=no
>
>
> 2015-01-21 9:39 GMT+03:00 Friedrich Volkmann <[hidden email]>:
>         On 21.01.2015 03:59, Никита wrote:
>         > You don't know regexes and theory behind them. [...] There
>         always pattern
>         > that will broke your regex.
>
>         E.g.?
>
>         > You will never teach your ugly hacks to to OSM users.
>
>         Probably because these are for developers, not for users.
>
>         --
>         Friedrich K. Volkmann       http://www.volki.at/
>         Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         Tagging mailing list
>         [hidden email]
>         https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

Nadjita
On 21.01.2015 09:06, Никита wrote:

> If you trying to parse name=school *with any regex *to map it as
> amenity=school* *you are wrong. OSM is not for you.
> If you trying to parse currency=bitcoin;coin for coin, then stop it
> right now. You have no idea how regexes or tags in osm work.

While I think, you should really calm down a bit and not sound so
aggressive, I have to agree with you. The purpose of structuring data is
not having to use a complicated, but a simple parser. Just because one
can use a regular expression to grep out a certain meaning doesn't mean
it's a good thing to do and will always work.
The only downside of currency:X=yes, currency:Y=yes to currency=X;Y is
that it involves more typing. In fact, nobody forces us to only use yes
and no as a value. The Healthcare 2.0 proposal uses partial, main, yes
and no. This can easily applied to a lot of values where it makes sense
and it gives the flexibility to distinguish between equal and
distinguished importance .
Using semicolon-lists for values was always considered a crutch until a
better tagging-scheme comes along.
We all know that the only real solution would be a native data type for
arrays in the database but as long as this isn't happening, we have to
work around.
But please let's not drag this down to a personal level and start
insulting each other, this isn't going to accomplish anything but anger.

- Nadjita

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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

Marc Gemis
In reply to this post by Никита
Please calm down. And do not insult other people.

Java has regular expressions as well [1], I know they are not for the every day user, but this problem also holds for OR, AND. There are a lot of people that do not understand logical expressions.
Furthermore, many word editors allow to search for word boundary (defined on spaces, and other punctuation), so you could search for "coin" without finding "bitcoin". If this is not possible in JOSM, maybe it has to be added.

regards

m


On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 9:06 AM, Никита <[hidden email]> wrote:
Никита, you really need to accept regexe is a widely used technology and one you really are not going to stamp out.
You missing the point. I do aware of POSIX standard. I do aware of perl quirks and overengineered regex syntax.

JOSM uses Java. There no "command line wiht perl" in Java. STOP your insane perl advocating. FIRST you teach users who use JOSM and ID who to use regexes LATER we will listen to you.

If you trying to parse name=school with any regex to map it as amenity=school you are wrong. OSM is not for you.
If you trying to parse currency=bitcoin;coin for coin, then stop it right now. You have no idea how regexes or tags in osm work.


I don't really care if tagging pracites among English-speaking users so undeveloped and pathetic. Actually I don't care if English speaking world will not have tools to use data they enter.


2015-01-21 10:53 GMT+03:00 David Bannon <[hidden email]>:
On Wed, 2015-01-21 at 09:35 +0300, Никита wrote:

> Well you actually smart person out there. Please query for features
> that support bitcoins or coins as currency ....

Come on please ! This is getting quite silly.

regexes are a basic part of the *nix and therefore internet world. Sure
they are cryptic and hard to deal with by those who don't regularly use
them but if we stopped regexe right now a lot more than OSM would stop
working !

Никита, you really need to accept regexe is a widely used technology and
one you really are not going to stamp out.

David

>
>
> <a href="http://overpass-turbo.eu/?w=%22payment:coins%22=%22yes%22%20or%20%" target="_blank">http://overpass-turbo.eu/?w=%22payment:coins%22=%22yes%22%20or%20%
> 22payment:bitcoin%22=%22yes%22
>
>
>
> Now try to query for only with bitcoin without litecoin tag:
> "payment:bitcoint"=* and "payment:litecoin"!=*
>
>
>
> Now try to qurery only for features without regular coins:
> ("payment:bitcoint"=* or "payment:litecoin"=*) and "payment:coint"!=*
>
>
>
> If really that dumb to answer questions above using regex, please
> write an regex to filter email address from plain text.
>
>
> > Probably because these are for developers, not for users.
> Nonsense like any of your words.
>
>
> How taginfo is for developers?
> http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/payment%3Acoins#values
>
>
>
> How wiki page is for developers?
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:payment:coins&redirect=no
>
>
> 2015-01-21 9:39 GMT+03:00 Friedrich Volkmann <[hidden email]>:
>         On 21.01.2015 03:59, Никита wrote:
>         > You don't know regexes and theory behind them. [...] There
>         always pattern
>         > that will broke your regex.
>
>         E.g.?
>
>         > You will never teach your ugly hacks to to OSM users.
>
>         Probably because these are for developers, not for users.
>
>         --
>         Friedrich K. Volkmann       http://www.volki.at/
>         Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         Tagging mailing list
>         [hidden email]
>         https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


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[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

Никита
In reply to this post by Nadjita
> Just because one can use a regular expression to grep out a certain meaning doesn't mean it's a good thing to do and will always work
We easily revert these edits in Russia. Quite often user who want to show their regex fu will fail so hard to guess actual properly of the real world. 

We care about data we map. 
We document it instead of guessing by taginfo.
We use real tags instead of regexes for users.

We like our newbies. We don't want to insist to use f$#$g perl regexes simply to map things around them.

I cannot stop you from using regex. But if I find your changsets erroneous I will revert them.

In fact, nobody forces us to only use yes and no as a value.
Wrong. It not forces you anything. You can still tag currency:X=fixme.

The Healthcare 2.0 proposal uses partial, main, yes and no. This can easily applied to a lot of values where it makes sense and it gives the flexibility to distinguish between equal and distinguished importance .
There way more tagging schemes than single Healthcare 2.0. Yes there differences, so what?

> Using semicolon-lists for values was always considered a crutch until a better tagging-scheme comes along.
You forgot to say "among English speaking users who fail to use JOSM search funtion or overpass or taginfo or wiki documentation". I don't care about them.

We all know that the only real solution would be a native data type for arrays in the database but as long as this isn't happening, we have to work around.
And obviously you choose the worst way to do this. With complicating things with REGEX. 


2015-01-21 11:42 GMT+03:00 Nadjita <[hidden email]>:
On 21.01.2015 09:06, Никита wrote:

> If you trying to parse name=school *with any regex *to map it as
> amenity=school* *you are wrong. OSM is not for you.
> If you trying to parse currency=bitcoin;coin for coin, then stop it
> right now. You have no idea how regexes or tags in osm work.

While I think, you should really calm down a bit and not sound so
aggressive, I have to agree with you. The purpose of structuring data is
not having to use a complicated, but a simple parser. Just because one
can use a regular expression to grep out a certain meaning doesn't mean
it's a good thing to do and will always work.
The only downside of currency:X=yes, currency:Y=yes to currency=X;Y is
that it involves more typing. In fact, nobody forces us to only use yes
and no as a value. The Healthcare 2.0 proposal uses partial, main, yes
and no. This can easily applied to a lot of values where it makes sense
and it gives the flexibility to distinguish between equal and
distinguished importance .
Using semicolon-lists for values was always considered a crutch until a
better tagging-scheme comes along.
We all know that the only real solution would be a native data type for
arrays in the database but as long as this isn't happening, we have to
work around.
But please let's not drag this down to a personal level and start
insulting each other, this isn't going to accomplish anything but anger.

- Nadjita

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

Dan S
Now you're insulting the one person who was supporting you? Please
STOP this thread everyone. Please.

2015-01-21 8:55 GMT+00:00 Никита <[hidden email]>:

>> Just because one can use a regular expression to grep out a certain
>> meaning doesn't mean it's a good thing to do and will always work
> We easily revert these edits in Russia. Quite often user who want to show
> their regex fu will fail so hard to guess actual properly of the real world.
>
> We care about data we map.
> We document it instead of guessing by taginfo.
> We use real tags instead of regexes for users.
>
> We like our newbies. We don't want to insist to use f$#$g perl regexes
> simply to map things around them.
>
> I cannot stop you from using regex. But if I find your changsets erroneous I
> will revert them.
>
>> In fact, nobody forces us to only use yes and no as a value.
> Wrong. It not forces you anything. You can still tag currency:X=fixme.
>
>> The Healthcare 2.0 proposal uses partial, main, yes and no. This can
>> easily applied to a lot of values where it makes sense and it gives the
>> flexibility to distinguish between equal and distinguished importance .
> There way more tagging schemes than single Healthcare 2.0. Yes there
> differences, so what?
>
>> Using semicolon-lists for values was always considered a crutch until a
>> better tagging-scheme comes along.
> You forgot to say "among English speaking users who fail to use JOSM search
> funtion or overpass or taginfo or wiki documentation". I don't care about
> them.
>
>> We all know that the only real solution would be a native data type for
>> arrays in the database but as long as this isn't happening, we have to work
>> around.
> And obviously you choose the worst way to do this. With complicating things
> with REGEX.
>
>
> 2015-01-21 11:42 GMT+03:00 Nadjita <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> On 21.01.2015 09:06, Никита wrote:
>>
>> > If you trying to parse name=school *with any regex *to map it as
>> > amenity=school* *you are wrong. OSM is not for you.
>> > If you trying to parse currency=bitcoin;coin for coin, then stop it
>> > right now. You have no idea how regexes or tags in osm work.
>>
>> While I think, you should really calm down a bit and not sound so
>> aggressive, I have to agree with you. The purpose of structuring data is
>> not having to use a complicated, but a simple parser. Just because one
>> can use a regular expression to grep out a certain meaning doesn't mean
>> it's a good thing to do and will always work.
>> The only downside of currency:X=yes, currency:Y=yes to currency=X;Y is
>> that it involves more typing. In fact, nobody forces us to only use yes
>> and no as a value. The Healthcare 2.0 proposal uses partial, main, yes
>> and no. This can easily applied to a lot of values where it makes sense
>> and it gives the flexibility to distinguish between equal and
>> distinguished importance .
>> Using semicolon-lists for values was always considered a crutch until a
>> better tagging-scheme comes along.
>> We all know that the only real solution would be a native data type for
>> arrays in the database but as long as this isn't happening, we have to
>> work around.
>> But please let's not drag this down to a personal level and start
>> insulting each other, this isn't going to accomplish anything but anger.
>>
>> - Nadjita
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tagging mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>

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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

Никита
Java has regular expressions as well [1], I know they are not for the every day user, but this problem also holds for OR, AND. There are a lot of people that do not understand logical expressions.
Furthermore, many word editors allow to search for word boundary (defined on spaces, and other punctuation), so you could search for "coin" without finding "bitcoin". If this is not possible in JOSM, maybe it has to be added.
My point is still the same. Java regexes are simpler, yes. They miss perl recursion and other perl specific stuff. God bless java language developers for doing this. But this is irrelevant to my points about wiki documentation or about need to teach any regex to josm user or id user.

We don't use multiple values for many things:
... just open taginfo or do postgres query to see actual numbers.

I have no idea why one would prefer semantickey=literal1;literal2;literal3 over key:semanticsubtag=value.

For the latter: 
- you make simple queries even with overpassQL or josm search
- you can make presets in iD or JOSM with translations in native language
- you can make wiki page about it
- you can send this link page to newbie
- you can be sure about meaning of this value

Why is there need to guess liretal values instead of semantically tagging using ":" in key. Russian community was doing this since 2010. Do English wiki or users that behind us? Is there real reason to support ';"? I was really surprised when my changes were simply reverted.


Now you're insulting the one person who was supporting you? Please
No I didn't. Quote them.

PS. Well I'm sorry for my tone if it was looking unacceptable in some messages.

2015-01-21 12:00 GMT+03:00 Dan S <[hidden email]>:
Now you're insulting the one person who was supporting you? Please
STOP this thread everyone. Please.

2015-01-21 8:55 GMT+00:00 Никита <[hidden email]>:
>> Just because one can use a regular expression to grep out a certain
>> meaning doesn't mean it's a good thing to do and will always work
> We easily revert these edits in Russia. Quite often user who want to show
> their regex fu will fail so hard to guess actual properly of the real world.
>
> We care about data we map.
> We document it instead of guessing by taginfo.
> We use real tags instead of regexes for users.
>
> We like our newbies. We don't want to insist to use f$#$g perl regexes
> simply to map things around them.
>
> I cannot stop you from using regex. But if I find your changsets erroneous I
> will revert them.
>
>> In fact, nobody forces us to only use yes and no as a value.
> Wrong. It not forces you anything. You can still tag currency:X=fixme.
>
>> The Healthcare 2.0 proposal uses partial, main, yes and no. This can
>> easily applied to a lot of values where it makes sense and it gives the
>> flexibility to distinguish between equal and distinguished importance .
> There way more tagging schemes than single Healthcare 2.0. Yes there
> differences, so what?
>
>> Using semicolon-lists for values was always considered a crutch until a
>> better tagging-scheme comes along.
> You forgot to say "among English speaking users who fail to use JOSM search
> funtion or overpass or taginfo or wiki documentation". I don't care about
> them.
>
>> We all know that the only real solution would be a native data type for
>> arrays in the database but as long as this isn't happening, we have to work
>> around.
> And obviously you choose the worst way to do this. With complicating things
> with REGEX.
>
>
> 2015-01-21 11:42 GMT+03:00 Nadjita <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> On 21.01.2015 09:06, Никита wrote:
>>
>> > If you trying to parse name=school *with any regex *to map it as
>> > amenity=school* *you are wrong. OSM is not for you.
>> > If you trying to parse currency=bitcoin;coin for coin, then stop it
>> > right now. You have no idea how regexes or tags in osm work.
>>
>> While I think, you should really calm down a bit and not sound so
>> aggressive, I have to agree with you. The purpose of structuring data is
>> not having to use a complicated, but a simple parser. Just because one
>> can use a regular expression to grep out a certain meaning doesn't mean
>> it's a good thing to do and will always work.
>> The only downside of currency:X=yes, currency:Y=yes to currency=X;Y is
>> that it involves more typing. In fact, nobody forces us to only use yes
>> and no as a value. The Healthcare 2.0 proposal uses partial, main, yes
>> and no. This can easily applied to a lot of values where it makes sense
>> and it gives the flexibility to distinguish between equal and
>> distinguished importance .
>> Using semicolon-lists for values was always considered a crutch until a
>> better tagging-scheme comes along.
>> We all know that the only real solution would be a native data type for
>> arrays in the database but as long as this isn't happening, we have to
>> work around.
>> But please let's not drag this down to a personal level and start
>> insulting each other, this isn't going to accomplish anything but anger.
>>
>> - Nadjita
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tagging mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>

_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

Marc Gemis
How do you tag traffic_calming = table; choker in Russia ?

I'm willing to adapt my tagging, but how can I do this ? Both forms of traffic calming are used at the same place sometimes, a table that is smaller than the rest of the road.

Furthermore what about cuisine ? Do you use cuisine:japanse=yes, cuisine:chinese=yes ?

If you are using all those subkeys since 2010, why aren't they documented in the wiki ? I only joined the project in 2011, but have never seen this being documented for all those keys...

regards

m.

On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 10:23 AM, Никита <[hidden email]> wrote:
Java has regular expressions as well [1], I know they are not for the every day user, but this problem also holds for OR, AND. There are a lot of people that do not understand logical expressions.
Furthermore, many word editors allow to search for word boundary (defined on spaces, and other punctuation), so you could search for "coin" without finding "bitcoin". If this is not possible in JOSM, maybe it has to be added.
My point is still the same. Java regexes are simpler, yes. They miss perl recursion and other perl specific stuff. God bless java language developers for doing this. But this is irrelevant to my points about wiki documentation or about need to teach any regex to josm user or id user.

We don't use multiple values for many things:
... just open taginfo or do postgres query to see actual numbers.

I have no idea why one would prefer semantickey=literal1;literal2;literal3 over key:semanticsubtag=value.

For the latter: 
- you make simple queries even with overpassQL or josm search
- you can make presets in iD or JOSM with translations in native language
- you can make wiki page about it
- you can send this link page to newbie
- you can be sure about meaning of this value

Why is there need to guess liretal values instead of semantically tagging using ":" in key. Russian community was doing this since 2010. Do English wiki or users that behind us? Is there real reason to support ';"? I was really surprised when my changes were simply reverted.


Now you're insulting the one person who was supporting you? Please
No I didn't. Quote them.

PS. Well I'm sorry for my tone if it was looking unacceptable in some messages.

2015-01-21 12:00 GMT+03:00 Dan S <[hidden email]>:
Now you're insulting the one person who was supporting you? Please
STOP this thread everyone. Please.

2015-01-21 8:55 GMT+00:00 Никита <[hidden email]>:
>> Just because one can use a regular expression to grep out a certain
>> meaning doesn't mean it's a good thing to do and will always work
> We easily revert these edits in Russia. Quite often user who want to show
> their regex fu will fail so hard to guess actual properly of the real world.
>
> We care about data we map.
> We document it instead of guessing by taginfo.
> We use real tags instead of regexes for users.
>
> We like our newbies. We don't want to insist to use f$#$g perl regexes
> simply to map things around them.
>
> I cannot stop you from using regex. But if I find your changsets erroneous I
> will revert them.
>
>> In fact, nobody forces us to only use yes and no as a value.
> Wrong. It not forces you anything. You can still tag currency:X=fixme.
>
>> The Healthcare 2.0 proposal uses partial, main, yes and no. This can
>> easily applied to a lot of values where it makes sense and it gives the
>> flexibility to distinguish between equal and distinguished importance .
> There way more tagging schemes than single Healthcare 2.0. Yes there
> differences, so what?
>
>> Using semicolon-lists for values was always considered a crutch until a
>> better tagging-scheme comes along.
> You forgot to say "among English speaking users who fail to use JOSM search
> funtion or overpass or taginfo or wiki documentation". I don't care about
> them.
>
>> We all know that the only real solution would be a native data type for
>> arrays in the database but as long as this isn't happening, we have to work
>> around.
> And obviously you choose the worst way to do this. With complicating things
> with REGEX.
>
>
> 2015-01-21 11:42 GMT+03:00 Nadjita <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> On 21.01.2015 09:06, Никита wrote:
>>
>> > If you trying to parse name=school *with any regex *to map it as
>> > amenity=school* *you are wrong. OSM is not for you.
>> > If you trying to parse currency=bitcoin;coin for coin, then stop it
>> > right now. You have no idea how regexes or tags in osm work.
>>
>> While I think, you should really calm down a bit and not sound so
>> aggressive, I have to agree with you. The purpose of structuring data is
>> not having to use a complicated, but a simple parser. Just because one
>> can use a regular expression to grep out a certain meaning doesn't mean
>> it's a good thing to do and will always work.
>> The only downside of currency:X=yes, currency:Y=yes to currency=X;Y is
>> that it involves more typing. In fact, nobody forces us to only use yes
>> and no as a value. The Healthcare 2.0 proposal uses partial, main, yes
>> and no. This can easily applied to a lot of values where it makes sense
>> and it gives the flexibility to distinguish between equal and
>> distinguished importance .
>> Using semicolon-lists for values was always considered a crutch until a
>> better tagging-scheme comes along.
>> We all know that the only real solution would be a native data type for
>> arrays in the database but as long as this isn't happening, we have to
>> work around.
>> But please let's not drag this down to a personal level and start
>> insulting each other, this isn't going to accomplish anything but anger.
>>
>> - Nadjita
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tagging mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


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[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

Никита
traffic_calming = table; choker in Russia?
This is not specific to Russia actually. Not many software will support tagging:
traffic_calming:table=yes
traffic_calming:chocker=yes

Is there problem to tag this in database and covert to "traffic_calming = table; choker" to get support in legacy software or outdated tools?

We use this pattern for almost anything in OSM that has multiple keys or values (different meanings actually "table"s "chocker"s):

Please see links above, they are in English. Also, fuel: key page was created at 2010.

I think we should start using both tagging schemes right now:
cuisine=simplevalueforoldsoftware

And actual tags for new software and presets
cuisine:japanse=yes
cuisine:chinese=yes

This is absolutely not new. See disused, abandoned.

Over time we will deprecate simple tags cuisine=X and possibly shop=X.


2015-01-21 12:37 GMT+03:00 Marc Gemis <[hidden email]>:
How do you tag traffic_calming = table; choker in Russia ?

I'm willing to adapt my tagging, but how can I do this ? Both forms of traffic calming are used at the same place sometimes, a table that is smaller than the rest of the road.

Furthermore what about cuisine ? Do you use cuisine:japanse=yes, cuisine:chinese=yes ?

If you are using all those subkeys since 2010, why aren't they documented in the wiki ? I only joined the project in 2011, but have never seen this being documented for all those keys...

regards

m.

On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 10:23 AM, Никита <[hidden email]> wrote:
Java has regular expressions as well [1], I know they are not for the every day user, but this problem also holds for OR, AND. There are a lot of people that do not understand logical expressions.
Furthermore, many word editors allow to search for word boundary (defined on spaces, and other punctuation), so you could search for "coin" without finding "bitcoin". If this is not possible in JOSM, maybe it has to be added.
My point is still the same. Java regexes are simpler, yes. They miss perl recursion and other perl specific stuff. God bless java language developers for doing this. But this is irrelevant to my points about wiki documentation or about need to teach any regex to josm user or id user.

We don't use multiple values for many things:
... just open taginfo or do postgres query to see actual numbers.

I have no idea why one would prefer semantickey=literal1;literal2;literal3 over key:semanticsubtag=value.

For the latter: 
- you make simple queries even with overpassQL or josm search
- you can make presets in iD or JOSM with translations in native language
- you can make wiki page about it
- you can send this link page to newbie
- you can be sure about meaning of this value

Why is there need to guess liretal values instead of semantically tagging using ":" in key. Russian community was doing this since 2010. Do English wiki or users that behind us? Is there real reason to support ';"? I was really surprised when my changes were simply reverted.


Now you're insulting the one person who was supporting you? Please
No I didn't. Quote them.

PS. Well I'm sorry for my tone if it was looking unacceptable in some messages.

2015-01-21 12:00 GMT+03:00 Dan S <[hidden email]>:
Now you're insulting the one person who was supporting you? Please
STOP this thread everyone. Please.

2015-01-21 8:55 GMT+00:00 Никита <[hidden email]>:
>> Just because one can use a regular expression to grep out a certain
>> meaning doesn't mean it's a good thing to do and will always work
> We easily revert these edits in Russia. Quite often user who want to show
> their regex fu will fail so hard to guess actual properly of the real world.
>
> We care about data we map.
> We document it instead of guessing by taginfo.
> We use real tags instead of regexes for users.
>
> We like our newbies. We don't want to insist to use f$#$g perl regexes
> simply to map things around them.
>
> I cannot stop you from using regex. But if I find your changsets erroneous I
> will revert them.
>
>> In fact, nobody forces us to only use yes and no as a value.
> Wrong. It not forces you anything. You can still tag currency:X=fixme.
>
>> The Healthcare 2.0 proposal uses partial, main, yes and no. This can
>> easily applied to a lot of values where it makes sense and it gives the
>> flexibility to distinguish between equal and distinguished importance .
> There way more tagging schemes than single Healthcare 2.0. Yes there
> differences, so what?
>
>> Using semicolon-lists for values was always considered a crutch until a
>> better tagging-scheme comes along.
> You forgot to say "among English speaking users who fail to use JOSM search
> funtion or overpass or taginfo or wiki documentation". I don't care about
> them.
>
>> We all know that the only real solution would be a native data type for
>> arrays in the database but as long as this isn't happening, we have to work
>> around.
> And obviously you choose the worst way to do this. With complicating things
> with REGEX.
>
>
> 2015-01-21 11:42 GMT+03:00 Nadjita <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> On 21.01.2015 09:06, Никита wrote:
>>
>> > If you trying to parse name=school *with any regex *to map it as
>> > amenity=school* *you are wrong. OSM is not for you.
>> > If you trying to parse currency=bitcoin;coin for coin, then stop it
>> > right now. You have no idea how regexes or tags in osm work.
>>
>> While I think, you should really calm down a bit and not sound so
>> aggressive, I have to agree with you. The purpose of structuring data is
>> not having to use a complicated, but a simple parser. Just because one
>> can use a regular expression to grep out a certain meaning doesn't mean
>> it's a good thing to do and will always work.
>> The only downside of currency:X=yes, currency:Y=yes to currency=X;Y is
>> that it involves more typing. In fact, nobody forces us to only use yes
>> and no as a value. The Healthcare 2.0 proposal uses partial, main, yes
>> and no. This can easily applied to a lot of values where it makes sense
>> and it gives the flexibility to distinguish between equal and
>> distinguished importance .
>> Using semicolon-lists for values was always considered a crutch until a
>> better tagging-scheme comes along.
>> We all know that the only real solution would be a native data type for
>> arrays in the database but as long as this isn't happening, we have to
>> work around.
>> But please let's not drag this down to a personal level and start
>> insulting each other, this isn't going to accomplish anything but anger.
>>
>> - Nadjita
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tagging mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



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[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
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|

Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

Jo-2
The 'new' public transport scheme actually has 'binary' keys for bus, tram, train, etc.

When you ask to have it rendered, one of the arguments for not doing so is that those extra fields are not imported in the DB specifically set up for rendering. It's considered too complicated, even though the system is better designed than what we started out with.

Just to add to the discussion that binary keys for all possible options are apparently not always the solution either.

In any case, it's not impossible to work with ; delimited lists, but it's enough if we try to limit their use. Just don't try to eradicate them, they do have their use.

I wouldn't want to have to add:

route_ref:318=yes
route_ref:616=yes


or

route_ref:BE:De_Lijn:1=yes
route_ref:BE:De_Lijn:2=yes
...
instead of this:

route_ref:De_Lijn=1;2;3;4;5;6;7;8;9;284;285;310;315;316;317;333;334;335;337;351;352;358;370;371;372;373;374;380;395;520;524;525;537;586;597

Polyglot

2015-01-21 11:08 GMT+01:00 Никита <[hidden email]>:
traffic_calming = table; choker in Russia?
This is not specific to Russia actually. Not many software will support tagging:
traffic_calming:table=yes
traffic_calming:chocker=yes

Is there problem to tag this in database and covert to "traffic_calming = table; choker" to get support in legacy software or outdated tools?

We use this pattern for almost anything in OSM that has multiple keys or values (different meanings actually "table"s "chocker"s):

Please see links above, they are in English. Also, fuel: key page was created at 2010.

I think we should start using both tagging schemes right now:
cuisine=simplevalueforoldsoftware

And actual tags for new software and presets
cuisine:japanse=yes
cuisine:chinese=yes

This is absolutely not new. See disused, abandoned.

Over time we will deprecate simple tags cuisine=X and possibly shop=X.


2015-01-21 12:37 GMT+03:00 Marc Gemis <[hidden email]>:
How do you tag traffic_calming = table; choker in Russia ?

I'm willing to adapt my tagging, but how can I do this ? Both forms of traffic calming are used at the same place sometimes, a table that is smaller than the rest of the road.

Furthermore what about cuisine ? Do you use cuisine:japanse=yes, cuisine:chinese=yes ?

If you are using all those subkeys since 2010, why aren't they documented in the wiki ? I only joined the project in 2011, but have never seen this being documented for all those keys...

regards

m.

On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 10:23 AM, Никита <[hidden email]> wrote:
Java has regular expressions as well [1], I know they are not for the every day user, but this problem also holds for OR, AND. There are a lot of people that do not understand logical expressions.
Furthermore, many word editors allow to search for word boundary (defined on spaces, and other punctuation), so you could search for "coin" without finding "bitcoin". If this is not possible in JOSM, maybe it has to be added.
My point is still the same. Java regexes are simpler, yes. They miss perl recursion and other perl specific stuff. God bless java language developers for doing this. But this is irrelevant to my points about wiki documentation or about need to teach any regex to josm user or id user.

We don't use multiple values for many things:
... just open taginfo or do postgres query to see actual numbers.

I have no idea why one would prefer semantickey=literal1;literal2;literal3 over key:semanticsubtag=value.

For the latter: 
- you make simple queries even with overpassQL or josm search
- you can make presets in iD or JOSM with translations in native language
- you can make wiki page about it
- you can send this link page to newbie
- you can be sure about meaning of this value

Why is there need to guess liretal values instead of semantically tagging using ":" in key. Russian community was doing this since 2010. Do English wiki or users that behind us? Is there real reason to support ';"? I was really surprised when my changes were simply reverted.


Now you're insulting the one person who was supporting you? Please
No I didn't. Quote them.

PS. Well I'm sorry for my tone if it was looking unacceptable in some messages.

2015-01-21 12:00 GMT+03:00 Dan S <[hidden email]>:
Now you're insulting the one person who was supporting you? Please
STOP this thread everyone. Please.

2015-01-21 8:55 GMT+00:00 Никита <[hidden email]>:
>> Just because one can use a regular expression to grep out a certain
>> meaning doesn't mean it's a good thing to do and will always work
> We easily revert these edits in Russia. Quite often user who want to show
> their regex fu will fail so hard to guess actual properly of the real world.
>
> We care about data we map.
> We document it instead of guessing by taginfo.
> We use real tags instead of regexes for users.
>
> We like our newbies. We don't want to insist to use f$#$g perl regexes
> simply to map things around them.
>
> I cannot stop you from using regex. But if I find your changsets erroneous I
> will revert them.
>
>> In fact, nobody forces us to only use yes and no as a value.
> Wrong. It not forces you anything. You can still tag currency:X=fixme.
>
>> The Healthcare 2.0 proposal uses partial, main, yes and no. This can
>> easily applied to a lot of values where it makes sense and it gives the
>> flexibility to distinguish between equal and distinguished importance .
> There way more tagging schemes than single Healthcare 2.0. Yes there
> differences, so what?
>
>> Using semicolon-lists for values was always considered a crutch until a
>> better tagging-scheme comes along.
> You forgot to say "among English speaking users who fail to use JOSM search
> funtion or overpass or taginfo or wiki documentation". I don't care about
> them.
>
>> We all know that the only real solution would be a native data type for
>> arrays in the database but as long as this isn't happening, we have to work
>> around.
> And obviously you choose the worst way to do this. With complicating things
> with REGEX.
>
>
> 2015-01-21 11:42 GMT+03:00 Nadjita <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> On 21.01.2015 09:06, Никита wrote:
>>
>> > If you trying to parse name=school *with any regex *to map it as
>> > amenity=school* *you are wrong. OSM is not for you.
>> > If you trying to parse currency=bitcoin;coin for coin, then stop it
>> > right now. You have no idea how regexes or tags in osm work.
>>
>> While I think, you should really calm down a bit and not sound so
>> aggressive, I have to agree with you. The purpose of structuring data is
>> not having to use a complicated, but a simple parser. Just because one
>> can use a regular expression to grep out a certain meaning doesn't mean
>> it's a good thing to do and will always work.
>> The only downside of currency:X=yes, currency:Y=yes to currency=X;Y is
>> that it involves more typing. In fact, nobody forces us to only use yes
>> and no as a value. The Healthcare 2.0 proposal uses partial, main, yes
>> and no. This can easily applied to a lot of values where it makes sense
>> and it gives the flexibility to distinguish between equal and
>> distinguished importance .
>> Using semicolon-lists for values was always considered a crutch until a
>> better tagging-scheme comes along.
>> We all know that the only real solution would be a native data type for
>> arrays in the database but as long as this isn't happening, we have to
>> work around.
>> But please let's not drag this down to a personal level and start
>> insulting each other, this isn't going to accomplish anything but anger.
>>
>> - Nadjita
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tagging mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

Никита
When you ask to have it rendered, one of the arguments for not doing so is that those extra fields are not imported in the DB specifically set up for rendering. It's considered too complicated, 
if data is clean and consistent, conversion process should be easy even for legacy renders or routing software. We should work on documentation for more user friendly tools (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Osmosis/Writing_Plugins)

If you know structure your information, there nothing complex for you. In most situations you say when some old tag should be replaced with newer version. But I do agree conversion software support may be not the ATM or poorly documented.

route_ref:De_Lijn=1;2;3;4;5;6;7;8;9;284;285;310;315;316;317;333;334;335;337;351;352;358;370;371;372;373;374;380;395;520;524;525;537;586;597
It is possible to get sting 

route_ref:De_Lijn=8;9;284

from keys in database

route_ref:De_Lijn:8=yes
route_ref:De_Lijn:9=yes
route_ref:De_Lijn:284=yes

I want to see bolded keys in database directly, for now tag with short key and multuple namespaced tags may duplicate each other. But you will also benefit from this. As I said previously, you can use queries like this:

"route_ref:De_Lijn:284"="yes" and "route_ref:De_Lijn:10"!=* — this query will capture missing 10 and present 284. You will spend hours for learning regexes for yourself and teaching other users how to use regex.

Now, after you realized "10" was missing, you have to enter this value at correct position in "1;2;3;4;5;6;7;8;9;284;285;310;315;316;317;333;334;335;337;351;352;358;370;371;372;373;374;380;395;520;524;525;537;586;597". 

You have sorted values already. But you dont need sorting to paste new tag "route_ref:De_Lijn:10"="yes". JOSM may sort or even hide tags for you, don't do computer job.

Also you get benefits from taginfo if your keys route_ref:De_Lijn: are popular, you can redirect taginfo users to wiki page about your project or tagging scheme.

Back to your problem. After tags are in database, you may develop universal plugin for JOSM that will do very simple thing:

for defined set of tags (route_ref:De_Lijn:, fuel:, cruisine: and others) it will glue their values together only for you. You may edit them as usual, but after it should somehow (it will be less tricky than everyone learn regex and ;; escaping) convert this string to the original keys.

Does this make sense for you? Will you adapt this approach?


2015-01-21 13:42 GMT+03:00 Jo <[hidden email]>:
The 'new' public transport scheme actually has 'binary' keys for bus, tram, train, etc.

When you ask to have it rendered, one of the arguments for not doing so is that those extra fields are not imported in the DB specifically set up for rendering. It's considered too complicated, even though the system is better designed than what we started out with.

Just to add to the discussion that binary keys for all possible options are apparently not always the solution either.

In any case, it's not impossible to work with ; delimited lists, but it's enough if we try to limit their use. Just don't try to eradicate them, they do have their use.

I wouldn't want to have to add:

route_ref:318=yes
route_ref:616=yes


or

route_ref:BE:De_Lijn:1=yes
route_ref:BE:De_Lijn:2=yes
...
instead of this:

route_ref:De_Lijn=1;2;3;4;5;6;7;8;9;284;285;310;315;316;317;333;334;335;337;351;352;358;370;371;372;373;374;380;395;520;524;525;537;586;597

Polyglot

2015-01-21 11:08 GMT+01:00 Никита <[hidden email]>:
traffic_calming = table; choker in Russia?
This is not specific to Russia actually. Not many software will support tagging:
traffic_calming:table=yes
traffic_calming:chocker=yes

Is there problem to tag this in database and covert to "traffic_calming = table; choker" to get support in legacy software or outdated tools?

We use this pattern for almost anything in OSM that has multiple keys or values (different meanings actually "table"s "chocker"s):

Please see links above, they are in English. Also, fuel: key page was created at 2010.

I think we should start using both tagging schemes right now:
cuisine=simplevalueforoldsoftware

And actual tags for new software and presets
cuisine:japanse=yes
cuisine:chinese=yes

This is absolutely not new. See disused, abandoned.

Over time we will deprecate simple tags cuisine=X and possibly shop=X.


2015-01-21 12:37 GMT+03:00 Marc Gemis <[hidden email]>:
How do you tag traffic_calming = table; choker in Russia ?

I'm willing to adapt my tagging, but how can I do this ? Both forms of traffic calming are used at the same place sometimes, a table that is smaller than the rest of the road.

Furthermore what about cuisine ? Do you use cuisine:japanse=yes, cuisine:chinese=yes ?

If you are using all those subkeys since 2010, why aren't they documented in the wiki ? I only joined the project in 2011, but have never seen this being documented for all those keys...

regards

m.

On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 10:23 AM, Никита <[hidden email]> wrote:
Java has regular expressions as well [1], I know they are not for the every day user, but this problem also holds for OR, AND. There are a lot of people that do not understand logical expressions.
Furthermore, many word editors allow to search for word boundary (defined on spaces, and other punctuation), so you could search for "coin" without finding "bitcoin". If this is not possible in JOSM, maybe it has to be added.
My point is still the same. Java regexes are simpler, yes. They miss perl recursion and other perl specific stuff. God bless java language developers for doing this. But this is irrelevant to my points about wiki documentation or about need to teach any regex to josm user or id user.

We don't use multiple values for many things:
... just open taginfo or do postgres query to see actual numbers.

I have no idea why one would prefer semantickey=literal1;literal2;literal3 over key:semanticsubtag=value.

For the latter: 
- you make simple queries even with overpassQL or josm search
- you can make presets in iD or JOSM with translations in native language
- you can make wiki page about it
- you can send this link page to newbie
- you can be sure about meaning of this value

Why is there need to guess liretal values instead of semantically tagging using ":" in key. Russian community was doing this since 2010. Do English wiki or users that behind us? Is there real reason to support ';"? I was really surprised when my changes were simply reverted.


Now you're insulting the one person who was supporting you? Please
No I didn't. Quote them.

PS. Well I'm sorry for my tone if it was looking unacceptable in some messages.

2015-01-21 12:00 GMT+03:00 Dan S <[hidden email]>:
Now you're insulting the one person who was supporting you? Please
STOP this thread everyone. Please.

2015-01-21 8:55 GMT+00:00 Никита <[hidden email]>:
>> Just because one can use a regular expression to grep out a certain
>> meaning doesn't mean it's a good thing to do and will always work
> We easily revert these edits in Russia. Quite often user who want to show
> their regex fu will fail so hard to guess actual properly of the real world.
>
> We care about data we map.
> We document it instead of guessing by taginfo.
> We use real tags instead of regexes for users.
>
> We like our newbies. We don't want to insist to use f$#$g perl regexes
> simply to map things around them.
>
> I cannot stop you from using regex. But if I find your changsets erroneous I
> will revert them.
>
>> In fact, nobody forces us to only use yes and no as a value.
> Wrong. It not forces you anything. You can still tag currency:X=fixme.
>
>> The Healthcare 2.0 proposal uses partial, main, yes and no. This can
>> easily applied to a lot of values where it makes sense and it gives the
>> flexibility to distinguish between equal and distinguished importance .
> There way more tagging schemes than single Healthcare 2.0. Yes there
> differences, so what?
>
>> Using semicolon-lists for values was always considered a crutch until a
>> better tagging-scheme comes along.
> You forgot to say "among English speaking users who fail to use JOSM search
> funtion or overpass or taginfo or wiki documentation". I don't care about
> them.
>
>> We all know that the only real solution would be a native data type for
>> arrays in the database but as long as this isn't happening, we have to work
>> around.
> And obviously you choose the worst way to do this. With complicating things
> with REGEX.
>
>
> 2015-01-21 11:42 GMT+03:00 Nadjita <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> On 21.01.2015 09:06, Никита wrote:
>>
>> > If you trying to parse name=school *with any regex *to map it as
>> > amenity=school* *you are wrong. OSM is not for you.
>> > If you trying to parse currency=bitcoin;coin for coin, then stop it
>> > right now. You have no idea how regexes or tags in osm work.
>>
>> While I think, you should really calm down a bit and not sound so
>> aggressive, I have to agree with you. The purpose of structuring data is
>> not having to use a complicated, but a simple parser. Just because one
>> can use a regular expression to grep out a certain meaning doesn't mean
>> it's a good thing to do and will always work.
>> The only downside of currency:X=yes, currency:Y=yes to currency=X;Y is
>> that it involves more typing. In fact, nobody forces us to only use yes
>> and no as a value. The Healthcare 2.0 proposal uses partial, main, yes
>> and no. This can easily applied to a lot of values where it makes sense
>> and it gives the flexibility to distinguish between equal and
>> distinguished importance .
>> Using semicolon-lists for values was always considered a crutch until a
>> better tagging-scheme comes along.
>> We all know that the only real solution would be a native data type for
>> arrays in the database but as long as this isn't happening, we have to
>> work around.
>> But please let's not drag this down to a personal level and start
>> insulting each other, this isn't going to accomplish anything but anger.
>>
>> - Nadjita
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tagging mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

jgpacker
In reply to this post by Никита
Getting all places with japanese and chinese cuisine around the globe in Overpass: http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/7b2

2015-01-21 8:09 GMT-02:00 Никита [via GIS] <[hidden email]>:
traffic_calming = table; choker in Russia?
This is not specific to Russia actually. Not many software will support tagging:
traffic_calming:table=yes
traffic_calming:chocker=yes

Is there problem to tag this in database and covert to "traffic_calming = table; choker" to get support in legacy software or outdated tools?

We use this pattern for almost anything in OSM that has multiple keys or values (different meanings actually "table"s "chocker"s):

Please see links above, they are in English. Also, fuel: key page was created at 2010.

I think we should start using both tagging schemes right now:
cuisine=simplevalueforoldsoftware

And actual tags for new software and presets
cuisine:japanse=yes
cuisine:chinese=yes

This is absolutely not new. See disused, abandoned.

Over time we will deprecate simple tags cuisine=X and possibly shop=X.


2015-01-21 12:37 GMT+03:00 Marc Gemis <[hidden email]>:
How do you tag traffic_calming = table; choker in Russia ?

I'm willing to adapt my tagging, but how can I do this ? Both forms of traffic calming are used at the same place sometimes, a table that is smaller than the rest of the road.

Furthermore what about cuisine ? Do you use cuisine:japanse=yes, cuisine:chinese=yes ?

If you are using all those subkeys since 2010, why aren't they documented in the wiki ? I only joined the project in 2011, but have never seen this being documented for all those keys...

regards

m.

On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 10:23 AM, Никита <[hidden email]> wrote:
Java has regular expressions as well [1], I know they are not for the every day user, but this problem also holds for OR, AND. There are a lot of people that do not understand logical expressions.
Furthermore, many word editors allow to search for word boundary (defined on spaces, and other punctuation), so you could search for "coin" without finding "bitcoin". If this is not possible in JOSM, maybe it has to be added.
My point is still the same. Java regexes are simpler, yes. They miss perl recursion and other perl specific stuff. God bless java language developers for doing this. But this is irrelevant to my points about wiki documentation or about need to teach any regex to josm user or id user.

We don't use multiple values for many things:
... just open taginfo or do postgres query to see actual numbers.

I have no idea why one would prefer semantickey=literal1;literal2;literal3 over key:semanticsubtag=value.

For the latter: 
- you make simple queries even with overpassQL or josm search
- you can make presets in iD or JOSM with translations in native language
- you can make wiki page about it
- you can send this link page to newbie
- you can be sure about meaning of this value

Why is there need to guess liretal values instead of semantically tagging using ":" in key. Russian community was doing this since 2010. Do English wiki or users that behind us? Is there real reason to support ';"? I was really surprised when my changes were simply reverted.


Now you're insulting the one person who was supporting you? Please
No I didn't. Quote them.

PS. Well I'm sorry for my tone if it was looking unacceptable in some messages.

2015-01-21 12:00 GMT+03:00 Dan S <[hidden email]>:
Now you're insulting the one person who was supporting you? Please
STOP this thread everyone. Please.

2015-01-21 8:55 GMT+00:00 Никита <[hidden email]>:
>> Just because one can use a regular expression to grep out a certain
>> meaning doesn't mean it's a good thing to do and will always work
> We easily revert these edits in Russia. Quite often user who want to show
> their regex fu will fail so hard to guess actual properly of the real world.
>
> We care about data we map.
> We document it instead of guessing by taginfo.
> We use real tags instead of regexes for users.
>
> We like our newbies. We don't want to insist to use f$#$g perl regexes
> simply to map things around them.
>
> I cannot stop you from using regex. But if I find your changsets erroneous I
> will revert them.
>
>> In fact, nobody forces us to only use yes and no as a value.
> Wrong. It not forces you anything. You can still tag currency:X=fixme.
>
>> The Healthcare 2.0 proposal uses partial, main, yes and no. This can
>> easily applied to a lot of values where it makes sense and it gives the
>> flexibility to distinguish between equal and distinguished importance .
> There way more tagging schemes than single Healthcare 2.0. Yes there
> differences, so what?
>
>> Using semicolon-lists for values was always considered a crutch until a
>> better tagging-scheme comes along.
> You forgot to say "among English speaking users who fail to use JOSM search
> funtion or overpass or taginfo or wiki documentation". I don't care about
> them.
>
>> We all know that the only real solution would be a native data type for
>> arrays in the database but as long as this isn't happening, we have to work
>> around.
> And obviously you choose the worst way to do this. With complicating things
> with REGEX.
>
>
> 2015-01-21 11:42 GMT+03:00 Nadjita <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> On 21.01.2015 09:06, Никита wrote:
>>
>> > If you trying to parse name=school *with any regex *to map it as
>> > amenity=school* *you are wrong. OSM is not for you.
>> > If you trying to parse currency=bitcoin;coin for coin, then stop it
>> > right now. You have no idea how regexes or tags in osm work.
>>
>> While I think, you should really calm down a bit and not sound so
>> aggressive, I have to agree with you. The purpose of structuring data is
>> not having to use a complicated, but a simple parser. Just because one
>> can use a regular expression to grep out a certain meaning doesn't mean
>> it's a good thing to do and will always work.
>> The only downside of currency:X=yes, currency:Y=yes to currency=X;Y is
>> that it involves more typing. In fact, nobody forces us to only use yes
>> and no as a value. The Healthcare 2.0 proposal uses partial, main, yes
>> and no. This can easily applied to a lot of values where it makes sense
>> and it gives the flexibility to distinguish between equal and
>> distinguished importance .
>> Using semicolon-lists for values was always considered a crutch until a
>> better tagging-scheme comes along.
>> We all know that the only real solution would be a native data type for
>> arrays in the database but as long as this isn't happening, we have to
>> work around.
>> But please let's not drag this down to a personal level and start
>> insulting each other, this isn't going to accomplish anything but anger.
>>
>> - Nadjita
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tagging mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>

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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

Никита
Getting all places with japanese and chinese cuisine around the globe in Overpass: http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/7b2
cuisine data is clean is easy to query right now. It may get more complicated at every moment.

Better try to query for "13" in ref="3;10;13;113;133" without loosing your sanity.
Next day I will add ref="3;10;13;113;133;13E" — will you update your query?

My query will always correct:
"ref"="13"

No matter how many 113 or 13A or 13/1 or 13-1 you may want to add.

OSM is not about writing regexes, it is about defining meaining in key=values and documenting them at wiki. We did this way before 2010.

Our current tools (JOSM, overpass, taginfo, osmosis, iD, presets in JOSM and iD, any other sane tool) and documentation (wiki) are key-sentric, not-something-in-the-middle-of-value-centric

2015-01-21 14:38 GMT+03:00 jgpacker <[hidden email]>:
Getting all places with japanese and chinese cuisine around the globe in Overpass: http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/7b2

2015-01-21 8:09 GMT-02:00 Никита [via GIS] <[hidden email]>:
traffic_calming = table; choker in Russia?
This is not specific to Russia actually. Not many software will support tagging:
traffic_calming:table=yes
traffic_calming:chocker=yes

Is there problem to tag this in database and covert to "traffic_calming = table; choker" to get support in legacy software or outdated tools?

We use this pattern for almost anything in OSM that has multiple keys or values (different meanings actually "table"s "chocker"s):

Please see links above, they are in English. Also, fuel: key page was created at 2010.

I think we should start using both tagging schemes right now:
cuisine=simplevalueforoldsoftware

And actual tags for new software and presets
cuisine:japanse=yes
cuisine:chinese=yes

This is absolutely not new. See disused, abandoned.

Over time we will deprecate simple tags cuisine=X and possibly shop=X.


2015-01-21 12:37 GMT+03:00 Marc Gemis <[hidden email]>:
How do you tag traffic_calming = table; choker in Russia ?

I'm willing to adapt my tagging, but how can I do this ? Both forms of traffic calming are used at the same place sometimes, a table that is smaller than the rest of the road.

Furthermore what about cuisine ? Do you use cuisine:japanse=yes, cuisine:chinese=yes ?

If you are using all those subkeys since 2010, why aren't they documented in the wiki ? I only joined the project in 2011, but have never seen this being documented for all those keys...

regards

m.

On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 10:23 AM, Никита <[hidden email]> wrote:
Java has regular expressions as well [1], I know they are not for the every day user, but this problem also holds for OR, AND. There are a lot of people that do not understand logical expressions.
Furthermore, many word editors allow to search for word boundary (defined on spaces, and other punctuation), so you could search for "coin" without finding "bitcoin". If this is not possible in JOSM, maybe it has to be added.
My point is still the same. Java regexes are simpler, yes. They miss perl recursion and other perl specific stuff. God bless java language developers for doing this. But this is irrelevant to my points about wiki documentation or about need to teach any regex to josm user or id user.

We don't use multiple values for many things:
... just open taginfo or do postgres query to see actual numbers.

I have no idea why one would prefer semantickey=literal1;literal2;literal3 over key:semanticsubtag=value.

For the latter: 
- you make simple queries even with overpassQL or josm search
- you can make presets in iD or JOSM with translations in native language
- you can make wiki page about it
- you can send this link page to newbie
- you can be sure about meaning of this value

Why is there need to guess liretal values instead of semantically tagging using ":" in key. Russian community was doing this since 2010. Do English wiki or users that behind us? Is there real reason to support ';"? I was really surprised when my changes were simply reverted.


Now you're insulting the one person who was supporting you? Please
No I didn't. Quote them.

PS. Well I'm sorry for my tone if it was looking unacceptable in some messages.

2015-01-21 12:00 GMT+03:00 Dan S <[hidden email]>:
Now you're insulting the one person who was supporting you? Please
STOP this thread everyone. Please.

2015-01-21 8:55 GMT+00:00 Никита <[hidden email]>:
>> Just because one can use a regular expression to grep out a certain
>> meaning doesn't mean it's a good thing to do and will always work
> We easily revert these edits in Russia. Quite often user who want to show
> their regex fu will fail so hard to guess actual properly of the real world.
>
> We care about data we map.
> We document it instead of guessing by taginfo.
> We use real tags instead of regexes for users.
>
> We like our newbies. We don't want to insist to use f$#$g perl regexes
> simply to map things around them.
>
> I cannot stop you from using regex. But if I find your changsets erroneous I
> will revert them.
>
>> In fact, nobody forces us to only use yes and no as a value.
> Wrong. It not forces you anything. You can still tag currency:X=fixme.
>
>> The Healthcare 2.0 proposal uses partial, main, yes and no. This can
>> easily applied to a lot of values where it makes sense and it gives the
>> flexibility to distinguish between equal and distinguished importance .
> There way more tagging schemes than single Healthcare 2.0. Yes there
> differences, so what?
>
>> Using semicolon-lists for values was always considered a crutch until a
>> better tagging-scheme comes along.
> You forgot to say "among English speaking users who fail to use JOSM search
> funtion or overpass or taginfo or wiki documentation". I don't care about
> them.
>
>> We all know that the only real solution would be a native data type for
>> arrays in the database but as long as this isn't happening, we have to work
>> around.
> And obviously you choose the worst way to do this. With complicating things
> with REGEX.
>
>
> 2015-01-21 11:42 GMT+03:00 Nadjita <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> On 21.01.2015 09:06, Никита wrote:
>>
>> > If you trying to parse name=school *with any regex *to map it as
>> > amenity=school* *you are wrong. OSM is not for you.
>> > If you trying to parse currency=bitcoin;coin for coin, then stop it
>> > right now. You have no idea how regexes or tags in osm work.
>>
>> While I think, you should really calm down a bit and not sound so
>> aggressive, I have to agree with you. The purpose of structuring data is
>> not having to use a complicated, but a simple parser. Just because one
>> can use a regular expression to grep out a certain meaning doesn't mean
>> it's a good thing to do and will always work.
>> The only downside of currency:X=yes, currency:Y=yes to currency=X;Y is
>> that it involves more typing. In fact, nobody forces us to only use yes
>> and no as a value. The Healthcare 2.0 proposal uses partial, main, yes
>> and no. This can easily applied to a lot of values where it makes sense
>> and it gives the flexibility to distinguish between equal and
>> distinguished importance .
>> Using semicolon-lists for values was always considered a crutch until a
>> better tagging-scheme comes along.
>> We all know that the only real solution would be a native data type for
>> arrays in the database but as long as this isn't happening, we have to
>> work around.
>> But please let's not drag this down to a personal level and start
>> insulting each other, this isn't going to accomplish anything but anger.
>>
>> - Nadjita
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tagging mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>

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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

Richard Fairhurst
Please

a) stop insulting people and using hyperbolic language
b) quote, and snip, properly rather than top-posting and repeating the entire previous message

As you can see from https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging I have administrative powers on this list, and if this thread continues in this vein I will use them.

Richard

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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

Frederik Ramm
In reply to this post by Никита
Hi,

On 01/21/2015 12:07 PM, Никита wrote:
> *route_ref:De_Lijn:8=yes*
> *route_ref:De_Lijn:9=yes*
> *route_ref:De_Lijn:284=yes*

> I want to see bolded keys in database directly

No. Relations have been invented specifically to avoid this.

Conceputally, the "value" space should not overflow into the "key"
space. While we allow arbitrary keys, we still want them to be keys, not
a mixture of keys and values. We don't want "name:Main Street=yes".

No matter what one thinks about semicolon lists, the above is clearly worse.

Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [hidden email]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

Andy Mabbett
In reply to this post by Никита
On 21 January 2015 at 02:16, Никита <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Ad hominem. Wow. You are so low.

Then:

> You are not only ignorant but annoying person. There no place for your
> proganda or your unjustified claims.

and:

> And you are egoiste who poison OSM database with garbage data.

Are any of the list's moderators reading?

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

Richard Fairhurst
Andy Mabbett wrote:
> Are any of the list's moderators reading?

Please see
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2015-January/021249.html

Richard

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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

Никита
In reply to this post by Frederik Ramm
We don't want "name:Main Street=yes".
You are mixing everything in key, this is not what I suggest.

fullsemantickey=fullsemangicvalue shouldn't be moved to 
fullsemantickey:fullsemangicvalue=yes

This makes to sense, now you have to parse key instead of value...

I only talk about separating key=part-of-value-withown-meaining1;part-of-value-withown-meaining2;part-of-value-withown-meaining3;part-of-value-withown-meaining4 into separate keys
key:semanticsubkey1=yes
key:semanticsubkey2=yes
key:semanticsubkey3=yes
key:semanticsubkey4=yes

and not
key:value=yes — this is horrible and impossible to query similar to multivalued keys
key=parsemevalue1;parsemevalue2;parsemevalue3 — this is also impossible to query (realistically, not with regexes)

But it also wrong if you remove all flexibility of multiple keys under really-log-unusable-value simply because "we have relations for that realson". Relations are fine, but keys are easier to understand for newbies and query. Instead of regexes you have to learn about querying only for relations, querying only for members with specific roles. This is donable, but this takes time. 

This is imporlant. Roles are not accessible by our documentation or tools. We cannot use this in presets or localize strings for it. There no difference in documentation for building=yes if it is with role 'inner' or 'address'.

Users should decide when to really use ';'. But we should discourage them from using it everywhere. It was proposal multiple times by many users already:


Again, see millionshighways with only 1 value http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/highway#values
Many name tags with only 1 value http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=name

Actually there very-very few examples where this can make sense:
ref=3;4 — reference roads with same meaning. There way more reference systems than you may think http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:ref&oldid=1129065
opening_hours — this is very specific key you have to process/parse its value each time, you can query "opening_hours"="24/7", but this tag is more complex than "simple tag to tag 24/7 feature"
lanes — used to indicate lanes, with specific order, left-to-right http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=lanes

Can somebody continue this list of exceptions?

2015-01-21 15:23 GMT+03:00 Frederik Ramm <[hidden email]>:
Hi,

On 01/21/2015 12:07 PM, Никита wrote:
> *route_ref:De_Lijn:8=yes*
> *route_ref:De_Lijn:9=yes*
> *route_ref:De_Lijn:284=yes*

> I want to see bolded keys in database directly

No. Relations have been invented specifically to avoid this.

Conceputally, the "value" space should not overflow into the "key"
space. While we allow arbitrary keys, we still want them to be keys, not
a mixture of keys and values. We don't want "name:Main Street=yes".

No matter what one thinks about semicolon lists, the above is clearly worse.

Bye
Frederik

--
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Re: Wiki Edit War on using/avoiding semicolon lists

jgpacker
This post has NOT been accepted by the mailing list yet.
In reply to this post by Никита
Better try to query for "13" in ref="3;10;13;113;133" without loosing your sanity.
Next day I will add ref="3;10;13;113;133;13E" — will you update your query?
I believe the following regular expression is enough for both examples:
ref ~ "\b13\b"
\b means word boundary (any character that starts or ends a word, such as space, colon, semicolon, etc)

However, word boundaries can be slow and are not recommended if you need to search large areas (e.g. whole world, germany or similar).
In this case, we could use something like:
ref ~ "(;|^)13(;|$)"
which can be read as: either semicolon or the start of the value, followed by 13, followed by either semicolon or the end of the value.
I would recommend to also allow a space before 13 (because people sometimes like to add an extra space after the semicolon), making it:
ref ~ "(;|^| )13(;|$)"

Semicolon-separated lists are pretty simple, so I would be surprised to see a need for a complex operation with them.


Note: For technical reasons, if you need to use a word boundary in Overpass QL, use \\b (you need to escape the backslash character). This is not the case in Overpass XML.

PS: I don't know Perl and don't want to learn it. Regular expression is a common feature in mature programming languages.


2015-01-21 9:47 GMT-02:00 Никита [via GIS] <[hidden email]>:
Getting all places with japanese and chinese cuisine around the globe in Overpass: http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/7b2
cuisine data is clean is easy to query right now. It may get more complicated at every moment.

Better try to query for "13" in ref="3;10;13;113;133" without loosing your sanity.
Next day I will add ref="3;10;13;113;133;13E" — will you update your query?

My query will always correct:
"ref"="13"

No matter how many 113 or 13A or 13/1 or 13-1 you may want to add.

OSM is not about writing regexes, it is about defining meaining in key=values and documenting them at wiki. We did this way before 2010.

Our current tools (JOSM, overpass, taginfo, osmosis, iD, presets in JOSM and iD, any other sane tool) and documentation (wiki) are key-sentric, not-something-in-the-middle-of-value-centric

2015-01-21 14:38 GMT+03:00 jgpacker <[hidden email]>:
Getting all places with japanese and chinese cuisine around the globe in Overpass: http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/7b2

2015-01-21 8:09 GMT-02:00 Никита [via GIS] <[hidden email]>:

traffic_calming = table; choker in Russia?
This is not specific to Russia actually. Not many software will support tagging:
traffic_calming:table=yes
traffic_calming:chocker=yes

Is there problem to tag this in database and covert to "traffic_calming = table; choker" to get support in legacy software or outdated tools?

We use this pattern for almost anything in OSM that has multiple keys or values (different meanings actually "table"s "chocker"s):

Please see links above, they are in English. Also, fuel: key page was created at 2010.

I think we should start using both tagging schemes right now:
cuisine=simplevalueforoldsoftware

And actual tags for new software and presets
cuisine:japanse=yes
cuisine:chinese=yes

This is absolutely not new. See disused, abandoned.

Over time we will deprecate simple tags cuisine=X and possibly shop=X.


2015-01-21 12:37 GMT+03:00 Marc Gemis <[hidden email]>:
How do you tag traffic_calming = table; choker in Russia ?

I'm willing to adapt my tagging, but how can I do this ? Both forms of traffic calming are used at the same place sometimes, a table that is smaller than the rest of the road.

Furthermore what about cuisine ? Do you use cuisine:japanse=yes, cuisine:chinese=yes ?

If you are using all those subkeys since 2010, why aren't they documented in the wiki ? I only joined the project in 2011, but have never seen this being documented for all those keys...

regards

m.

On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 10:23 AM, Никита <[hidden email]> wrote:
Java has regular expressions as well [1], I know they are not for the every day user, but this problem also holds for OR, AND. There are a lot of people that do not understand logical expressions.
Furthermore, many word editors allow to search for word boundary (defined on spaces, and other punctuation), so you could search for "coin" without finding "bitcoin". If this is not possible in JOSM, maybe it has to be added.
My point is still the same. Java regexes are simpler, yes. They miss perl recursion and other perl specific stuff. God bless java language developers for doing this. But this is irrelevant to my points about wiki documentation or about need to teach any regex to josm user or id user.

We don't use multiple values for many things:
... just open taginfo or do postgres query to see actual numbers.

I have no idea why one would prefer semantickey=literal1;literal2;literal3 over key:semanticsubtag=value.

For the latter: 
- you make simple queries even with overpassQL or josm search
- you can make presets in iD or JOSM with translations in native language
- you can make wiki page about it
- you can send this link page to newbie
- you can be sure about meaning of this value

Why is there need to guess liretal values instead of semantically tagging using ":" in key. Russian community was doing this since 2010. Do English wiki or users that behind us? Is there real reason to support ';"? I was really surprised when my changes were simply reverted.


Now you're insulting the one person who was supporting you? Please
No I didn't. Quote them.

PS. Well I'm sorry for my tone if it was looking unacceptable in some messages.

2015-01-21 12:00 GMT+03:00 Dan S <[hidden email]>:
Now you're insulting the one person who was supporting you? Please
STOP this thread everyone. Please.

2015-01-21 8:55 GMT+00:00 Никита <[hidden email]>:
>> Just because one can use a regular expression to grep out a certain
>> meaning doesn't mean it's a good thing to do and will always work
> We easily revert these edits in Russia. Quite often user who want to show
> their regex fu will fail so hard to guess actual properly of the real world.
>
> We care about data we map.
> We document it instead of guessing by taginfo.
> We use real tags instead of regexes for users.
>
> We like our newbies. We don't want to insist to use f$#$g perl regexes
> simply to map things around them.
>
> I cannot stop you from using regex. But if I find your changsets erroneous I
> will revert them.
>
>> In fact, nobody forces us to only use yes and no as a value.
> Wrong. It not forces you anything. You can still tag currency:X=fixme.
>
>> The Healthcare 2.0 proposal uses partial, main, yes and no. This can
>> easily applied to a lot of values where it makes sense and it gives the
>> flexibility to distinguish between equal and distinguished importance .
> There way more tagging schemes than single Healthcare 2.0. Yes there
> differences, so what?
>
>> Using semicolon-lists for values was always considered a crutch until a
>> better tagging-scheme comes along.
> You forgot to say "among English speaking users who fail to use JOSM search
> funtion or overpass or taginfo or wiki documentation". I don't care about
> them.
>
>> We all know that the only real solution would be a native data type for
>> arrays in the database but as long as this isn't happening, we have to work
>> around.
> And obviously you choose the worst way to do this. With complicating things
> with REGEX.
>
>
> 2015-01-21 11:42 GMT+03:00 Nadjita <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> On 21.01.2015 09:06, Никита wrote:
>>
>> > If you trying to parse name=school *with any regex *to map it as
>> > amenity=school* *you are wrong. OSM is not for you.
>> > If you trying to parse currency=bitcoin;coin for coin, then stop it
>> > right now. You have no idea how regexes or tags in osm work.
>>
>> While I think, you should really calm down a bit and not sound so
>> aggressive, I have to agree with you. The purpose of structuring data is
>> not having to use a complicated, but a simple parser. Just because one
>> can use a regular expression to grep out a certain meaning doesn't mean
>> it's a good thing to do and will always work.
>> The only downside of currency:X=yes, currency:Y=yes to currency=X;Y is
>> that it involves more typing. In fact, nobody forces us to only use yes
>> and no as a value. The Healthcare 2.0 proposal uses partial, main, yes
>> and no. This can easily applied to a lot of values where it makes sense
>> and it gives the flexibility to distinguish between equal and
>> distinguished importance .
>> Using semicolon-lists for values was always considered a crutch until a
>> better tagging-scheme comes along.
>> We all know that the only real solution would be a native data type for
>> arrays in the database but as long as this isn't happening, we have to
>> work around.
>> But please let's not drag this down to a personal level and start
>> insulting each other, this isn't going to accomplish anything but anger.
>>
>> - Nadjita
>>
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