Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/50a5pk/without_an_address_an_icelandic_tourist_drew_this/?ref=share&ref_source=link

I never saw this type of addressing on an envelope. It is interesting
because the system with the street name signs and the house number
plaques is very expensive, requires a lot of service, dedicated
lightning, etc.

Here is this place on the OSM map:

http://osm.org/go/e1DQElSx--?m=

It took just several seconds to find it (even without knowledge of the
Icelandic language).


_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Jóhannes Birgir Jensson]

The actual address to that farm would be much shorter even, Hólar,
Búðardal.

Simple phone book lookup gives us this
https://ja.is/?q=h%C3%B3lar%20b%C3%BA%C3%B0ardal (here Hólar has been
changed to dative case Hólum).

Probably you'll find a small sign by the driveway to the farm at the
main road with the farm name, thats about it for signage in rural areas.


Þann 30.08.2016 13:44, Oleksiy Muzalyev reit:

> https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/50a5pk/without_an_address_an_icelandic_tourist_drew_this/?ref=share&ref_source=link
>
> I never saw this type of addressing on an envelope. It is interesting
> because the system with the street name signs and the house number
> plaques is very expensive, requires a lot of service, dedicated
> lightning, etc.
>
> Here is this place on the OSM map:
>
> http://osm.org/go/e1DQElSx--?m=
>
> It took just several seconds to find it (even without knowledge of the
> Icelandic language).
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

It is clear that in Iceland there are street signs. However, a growing
number of people on Earth is living in slums [1] or slum-like areas,
where a classical system of addresses from the 19th century is not
affordable. The majority of people do not have any addresses and will
never have them, unless something better is invented, - a robust
universal system based on physical laws. Sometimes dwellers may have
smartphones but not addresses.
[1] http://www.who.int/gho/urban_health/en/

On 30.08.2016 16:25, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson wrote:

> The actual address to that farm would be much shorter even, Hólar,
> Búðardal.
>
> Simple phone book lookup gives us this
> https://ja.is/?q=h%C3%B3lar%20b%C3%BA%C3%B0ardal (here Hólar has been
> changed to dative case Hólum).
>
> Probably you'll find a small sign by the driveway to the farm at the
> main road with the farm name, thats about it for signage in rural areas.
>
>
> Þann 30.08.2016 13:44, Oleksiy Muzalyev reit:
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/50a5pk/without_an_address_an_icelandic_tourist_drew_this/?ref=share&ref_source=link 
>>
>>
>> I never saw this type of addressing on an envelope. It is interesting
>> because the system with the street name signs and the house number
>> plaques is very expensive, requires a lot of service, dedicated
>> lightning, etc.
>>
>> Here is this place on the OSM map:
>>
>> http://osm.org/go/e1DQElSx--?m=
>>
>> It took just several seconds to find it (even without knowledge of the
>> Icelandic language).

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Iván Sánchez Ortega]

Warning: flame thread about to start.



El tirsdag 30. august 2016 16.50.14 CEST Oleksiy Muzalyev escribió:
> It is clear that in Iceland there are street signs. However, a growing
> number of people on Earth is living in slums [1] or slum-like areas,
> where a classical system of addresses from the 19th century is not
> affordable.

Oh for fucks sake. Tell me what's not affordable about spray-painting letters
on the sides of buildings?


> The majority of people do not have any addresses and will
> never have them, unless something better is invented, - a
> robust universal system based on physical laws.

That's a huge false dichotomy. You're implying that there is *one* *only* way
to improve un-addresable dwellings.


> Sometimes dwellers may have smartphones but not addresses.

And sometimes they have names of things in paper maps and street signs, but no
power. Duh.


</flame>

--
Iván Sánchez Ortega <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]>
<[hidden email]>


_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 30.08.2016 17:03, Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote:
> ... Tell me what's not affordable about spray-painting letters
> on the sides of buildings?
>
> ...

If it were as simple as this. An address, currently a street name and
house number, is to be present in a property title, so it should be
unambiguous and recognized legally. Besides, streets could be renamed
from time to time due to changing political moods. Letters painted with
a cheap paint fade quickly under the sun light. There is an issue of
illegal construction, - there are cities where about half of an urban
agglomeration may be an illegal slum. And so on and so forth. So it is
an expensive system which requires maintenance and enforcing.


Though you may be right, - maybe it is not possible to invent anything
better than a system of addresses based on street names and house
numbers. May be it is the final system, where the human ingenuity
reached the Wall of Physical Laws, and no other progress is possible.


I just saw this envelope with the map, and it was something new and
original.


_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Florian Lohoff-2]

Hola,

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 05:03:39PM +0200, Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote:

> Warning: flame thread about to start.
>
> El tirsdag 30. august 2016 16.50.14 CEST Oleksiy Muzalyev escribió:
> > It is clear that in Iceland there are street signs. However, a growing
> > number of people on Earth is living in slums [1] or slum-like areas,
> > where a classical system of addresses from the 19th century is not
> > affordable.
>
> Oh for fucks sake. Tell me what's not affordable about spray-painting letters
> on the sides of buildings?

http://www.upu.int/en/activities/addressing/addressing-the-world-initiative.html
http://www.upu.int/fileadmin/documentsFiles/activities/addressingAssistance/brochureWhitePaperEn.pdf
http://www.upu.int/fileadmin/documentsFiles/activities/addressingAssistance/brochureAddressingTheWorldEn.pdf

Although i think the Upu has some serious conflicts in their members and goals.

Deutsche Post and British Postal Service are both members, and both claim copyright
on the postcode database. So the members of the UPU do not conform to the claimed "public good"
of addressing.

I think OSM could be a major piece in generating addresses for the billions
currently unaddressed - still - its a huge task.

Flo
--
Florian Lohoff                                                 [hidden email]
             UTF-8 Test: The 🐈 ran after a 🐁, but the 🐁 ran away

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Colin Smale]

I am going to say this very quietly.... what3words

 

 

On 2016-08-30 19:12, Florian Lohoff wrote:

Hola,

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 05:03:39PM +0200, Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote:

Warning: flame thread about to start.

El tirsdag 30. august 2016 16.50.14 CEST Oleksiy Muzalyev escribió:

It is clear that in Iceland there are street signs. However, a growing
number of people on Earth is living in slums [1] or slum-like areas,
where a classical system of addresses from the 19th century is not
affordable.

Oh for fucks sake. Tell me what's not affordable about spray-painting letters
on the sides of buildings?

http://www.upu.int/en/activities/addressing/addressing-the-world-initiative.html
http://www.upu.int/fileadmin/documentsFiles/activities/addressingAssistance/brochureWhitePaperEn.pdf
http://www.upu.int/fileadmin/documentsFiles/activities/addressingAssistance/brochureAddressingTheWorldEn.pdf

Although i think the Upu has some serious conflicts in their members and goals.

Deutsche Post and British Postal Service are both members, and both claim copyright
on the postcode database. So the members of the UPU do not conform to the claimed "public good"
of addressing.

I think OSM could be a major piece in generating addresses for the billions
currently unaddressed - still - its a huge task.

Flo

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Florian Lohoff-2]

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 07:24:02PM +0200, Colin Smale wrote:
> I am going to say this very quietly.... what3words

I dont think what3words solves the issue of structured Addressing.

Addresses are typically strict hierarchical and offer some serious
concepts you cant build with what3words.

"Fuzzy" or "Blurry" addresses - You cant express something like
"between housenumber 5 and 10" or - "Across number 10 High Street".

Its exact in every aspect.

Or a concept of "Naming all streets after birds in the north
of the village and all streets after mammals on the south"
every child can tell you the direction to walk and from the
Name you get a rough guess where to head to.

When you tell them where is "allgemein.ausfüllen.fahrpreis" everybody
will look a little confused.

What3Words is not made for humans, its made for Machines.

Flo
--
Florian Lohoff                                                 [hidden email]
             UTF-8 Test: The 🐈 ran after a 🐁, but the 🐁 ran away

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Paul Johnson-3]

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 8:44 AM, Oleksiy Muzalyev <[hidden email]> wrote:

https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/50a5pk/without_an_address_an_icelandic_tourist_drew_this/?ref=share&ref_source=link

I never saw this type of addressing on an envelope. It is interesting because the system with the street name signs and the house number plaques is very expensive, requires a lot of service, dedicated lightning, etc.

Here is this place on the OSM map:

http://osm.org/go/e1DQElSx--?m=

It took just several seconds to find it (even without knowledge of the Icelandic language).

This is how you register to vote in Oklahoma if your location doesn't yet have a formal address.  Mail will get there eventually but it might take a little bit of sleuthing on the part of an overworked postman, so until they're used to it, expect mail to arrive with a pretty brutal delay.

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Colin Smale]

w3w solves the problem of you not having a (compact) answer to "what´s your address?" if you want to have something delivered. The fact that you only have to remember three words is for humans. But indeed the delivery person needs a computer.

 

//colin

On 2016-08-30 19:43, Florian Lohoff wrote:

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 07:24:02PM +0200, Colin Smale wrote:

I am going to say this very quietly.... what3words

I dont think what3words solves the issue of structured Addressing.

Addresses are typically strict hierarchical and offer some serious
concepts you cant build with what3words.

"Fuzzy" or "Blurry" addresses - You cant express something like
"between housenumber 5 and 10" or - "Across number 10 High Street".

Its exact in every aspect.

Or a concept of "Naming all streets after birds in the north
of the village and all streets after mammals on the south"
every child can tell you the direction to walk and from the
Name you get a rough guess where to head to.

When you tell them where is "allgemein.ausfüllen.fahrpreis" everybody
will look a little confused.

What3Words is not made for humans, its made for Machines.

Flo

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Craig Wallace]

On 2016-08-30 18:24, Colin Smale wrote:
> I am going to say this very quietly.... what3words

Which forces you to use the what3words website, or an officially
licensed app.

If you want to use a postcode/coordinate system, there are plenty of
better options.
eg Open Location Codes (Plus Codes). https://plus.codes/
They are actually a free/open system, so can be used in other software etc.
And you can just use the first part, to refer to a larger block. Or
shorten it, if you know part of the address.


_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Paul Johnson-3]

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 1:05 PM, Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:

w3w solves the problem of you not having a (compact) answer to "what´s your address?" if you want to have something delivered. The fact that you only have to remember three words is for humans. But indeed the delivery person needs a computer.

I swear to god we've been over this... Not that it really helps when even in the US, your average delivery driver's not going to make heads or tails of purple,monkey,dishwasher in the first place, much less be able to sort it out because their truck doesn't have a computer.

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[sabas88]

2016-08-30 19:24 GMT+02:00 Colin Smale <[hidden email]>:

I am going to say this very quietly.... what3words

 

IKEA furniture is more recognizable than english words

http://www.what3ikea.com/

/s

Cheers,

Stefano

 

On 2016-08-30 19:12, Florian Lohoff wrote:

Hola,

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 05:03:39PM +0200, Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote:

Warning: flame thread about to start.

El tirsdag 30. august 2016 16.50.14 CEST Oleksiy Muzalyev escribió:

It is clear that in Iceland there are street signs. However, a growing
number of people on Earth is living in slums [1] or slum-like areas,
where a classical system of addresses from the 19th century is not
affordable.

Oh for fucks sake. Tell me what's not affordable about spray-painting letters
on the sides of buildings?

http://www.upu.int/en/activities/addressing/addressing-the-world-initiative.html
http://www.upu.int/fileadmin/documentsFiles/activities/addressingAssistance/brochureWhitePaperEn.pdf
http://www.upu.int/fileadmin/documentsFiles/activities/addressingAssistance/brochureAddressingTheWorldEn.pdf

Although i think the Upu has some serious conflicts in their members and goals.

Deutsche Post and British Postal Service are both members, and both claim copyright
on the postcode database. So the members of the UPU do not conform to the claimed "public good"
of addressing.

I think OSM could be a major piece in generating addresses for the billions
currently unaddressed - still - its a huge task.

Flo

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Colin Smale]

On 2016-08-30 20:10, Paul Johnson wrote:

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 1:05 PM, Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:

w3w solves the problem of you not having a (compact) answer to "what´s your address?" if you want to have something delivered. The fact that you only have to remember three words is for humans. But indeed the delivery person needs a computer.

I swear to god we've been over this... Not that it really helps when even in the US, your average delivery driver's not going to make heads or tails of purple,monkey,dishwasher in the first place, much less be able to sort it out because their truck doesn't have a computer.

 

We have - that's why I am whispering. But w3w is not intended for the US. It's for places which don't have addresses already, which apparently is a large part of the world. And I would be surprised if even a US delivery driver doesn't have a sat nav, which can easily deal with w3w (check out Navmii for example).

 

 

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Andy Townsend]

On 30/08/2016 19:10, Paul Johnson wrote:

I swear to god we've been over this...

Surely the natural conclusion is a "what3osmtalkthreads" - something like "your address is 'sidewalks, imports, licensing' ..." :)

Cheers,

Andy


_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Paul Johnson-3]

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:

We have - that's why I am whispering. But w3w is not intended for the US. It's for places which don't have addresses already, which apparently is a large part of the world. And I would be surprised if even a US delivery driver doesn't have a sat nav, which can easily deal with w3w (check out Navmii for example).

OK, then you seemed to miss the simple fact that, (gets out megaphone, aims directly at Colin's head) NOBODY USES W3W BUT ALMOST EVERYONE KNOWS LATITUDE AND LONGITUDE.

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Colin Smale]

On 2016-08-30 20:25, Paul Johnson wrote:

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:

We have - that's why I am whispering. But w3w is not intended for the US. It's for places which don't have addresses already, which apparently is a large part of the world. And I would be surprised if even a US delivery driver doesn't have a sat nav, which can easily deal with w3w (check out Navmii for example).

OK, then you seemed to miss the simple fact that, (gets out megaphone, aims directly at Colin's head) NOBODY USES W3W BUT ALMOST EVERYONE KNOWS LATITUDE AND LONGITUDE.

 

OK you win Paul, put away your megaphone and gather your toys up off the ground. After all remembering two 7-digit floating point numbers is much easier than remembering three words to the average person in these underdeveloped areas. It must be my brain's off-day. Have you shared your idea with USPS? Let's all use lat/lon and scrap all that silly business with street names and zip codes. What's not to like?

 

Oh, and tell all these people they are stupid as well

http://what3words.com/using-what3words/delivery-ecommerce/

 

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[john whelan-2]

I think the long latitude is unfortunately well understand, groups nearby places together and these days with word-processing and cut and paste not that difficult to handle.

Unfortunately it doesn't have a check digit so if it's written with two digits transposed you've had it.

Post offices depend on the address contain redundant information, a post code can be misread or miswritten but if it has a street address as well it stands a very good chance of being delivered.

I think the answer is to assist countries without addresses to one up with a postcode town / village address that can be expanded to a house number at a later date.

Difficult to remember?   Write it on a scrap of paper and pin it on the wall.

Hopefully we can talk the Red Cross / World bank etc into doing some of this sort of basic infrastructure work.

Cheerio John

On 30 Aug 2016 2:39 pm, "Colin Smale" <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 2016-08-30 20:25, Paul Johnson wrote:

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:

We have - that's why I am whispering. But w3w is not intended for the US. It's for places which don't have addresses already, which apparently is a large part of the world. And I would be surprised if even a US delivery driver doesn't have a sat nav, which can easily deal with w3w (check out Navmii for example).

OK, then you seemed to miss the simple fact that, (gets out megaphone, aims directly at Colin's head) NOBODY USES W3W BUT ALMOST EVERYONE KNOWS LATITUDE AND LONGITUDE.

 

OK you win Paul, put away your megaphone and gather your toys up off the ground. After all remembering two 7-digit floating point numbers is much easier than remembering three words to the average person in these underdeveloped areas. It must be my brain's off-day. Have you shared your idea with USPS? Let's all use lat/lon and scrap all that silly business with street names and zip codes. What's not to like?

 

Oh, and tell all these people they are stupid as well

http://what3words.com/using-what3words/delivery-ecommerce/

 

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Paul Johnson-3]

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 1:36 PM, Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:

Have you shared your idea with USPS? Let's all use lat/lon and scrap all that silly business with street names and zip codes.

Having hauled mail, I would occasionally come across something addressed by latitude/longitude and we'd have to make an educated guess (but as others have pointed out, don't exactly have the time or the motivation to care about accuracy).  Hence zip codes aren't about the public's convenience, but the mail haulers.  The postal service can figure out a latitude and longitude (and they sort of have to if there's no actual street address, which happens).  But, largely thanks to magazine contests before the rule came in place in the US (and thus the postal service would have to figure out where it was trying to go no matter how long it took) trying to figure out just how to make something undeliverable, the postal service is "best effort" if you're not conforming to postal standards.

That said, properly wrap your mail ('FRAGILE' doesn't mean anything to the postal service, assume your package is going to get on the bottom of a 1400 pound pallette of mail with something heavy and pointed on top if you want it to survive; there's no such thing as overprotecting your contents if you want it there in one piece).  The postal service can work with a name and a missile address.  The postal service can work with a name and a zip code if it's rural enough.  But, and I don't even do that line of work anymore, if you pull shit like mail a gallon of milk unprotected and without a cooler...I hate you.

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Iván Sánchez Ortega]

El martes, 30 de agosto de 2016 19:10:15 (CEST) Craig Wallace escribió:
> If you want to use a postcode/coordinate system, there are plenty of
> better options.
> eg Open Location Codes (Plus Codes). https://plus.codes/

Or www.what3fucks.com.


--
Iván Sánchez Ortega <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]>

http://ivan.sanchezortega.es
@RealIvanSanchez

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk