Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

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Re: Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

Maurizio Napolitano-3
On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 8:12 PM, Stefano <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> 2016-08-30 19:24 GMT+02:00 Colin Smale <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> I am going to say this very quietly.... what3words
>>
>>
>
>
> IKEA furniture is more recognizable than english words
> http://www.what3ikea.com/

don't forget:
most of the names of the ikea's products are name of locations in
Sweden or Norway (the others come from names of people, flowers,
animals ...)

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Re: Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

Oleksiy Muzalyev
In reply to this post by sabas88
On 30/08/16 20:12, Stefano wrote:


2016-08-30 19:24 GMT+02:00 Colin Smale <[hidden email]>:

I am going to say this very quietly.... what3words

 

IKEA furniture is more recognizable than english words

/s

Cheers,
Stefano
These all are good tries, however it should be something like MP3. When MP3 appeared it immediately became clear that the era of CD is over. Or a Cartesian coordinate system. For two thousand years the dot was considered as a final indivisible entity, an axiom. Until René Descartes split the dot in two coordinates x and y. Now it seems to be obvious, but at that time Isaac Newton had to reread Descartes' La Géométrie, where this idea was published, nine times. A Cartesian coordinate system was a ground-breaking idea.

It is flying in the air, but it is not there yet. Perhaps, it requires a thinker like René Descartes to formulate, if it is doable at all.



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Re: Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

john whelan-2
>When MP3 appeared it immediately became clear that the era of CD is over.

No, anyone who listens to Classical music will tell you they are not the same thing at all.

John

On 30 August 2016 at 17:05, Oleksiy Muzalyev <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 30/08/16 20:12, Stefano wrote:


2016-08-30 19:24 GMT+02:00 Colin Smale <[hidden email]>:

I am going to say this very quietly.... what3words

 

IKEA furniture is more recognizable than english words

/s

Cheers,
Stefano
These all are good tries, however it should be something like MP3. When MP3 appeared it immediately became clear that the era of CD is over. Or a Cartesian coordinate system. For two thousand years the dot was considered as a final indivisible entity, an axiom. Until René Descartes split the dot in two coordinates x and y. Now it seems to be obvious, but at that time Isaac Newton had to reread Descartes' La Géométrie, where this idea was published, nine times. A Cartesian coordinate system was a ground-breaking idea.

It is flying in the air, but it is not there yet. Perhaps, it requires a thinker like René Descartes to formulate, if it is doable at all.



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Re: Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

Andreas Vilén
In reply to this post by Colin Smale
"frame;lock;door" hmm... or was it "frame;lock;window"? ---> mail gets delivered to the other side of the world. If you write "Main street 15" instead of "Main street 13" it will probably get delivered correctly anyway as long as the name is correct.

Also, tell people who are supposed to deliver mail in the favelas of Brazil to constantly wear a smartphone around their neck and you will see very few people willing to do that work...

Imo it's better to let these areas choose their own (classic) addresses and then report these to the authorities.

/Andreas

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 7:24 PM, Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:

I am going to say this very quietly.... what3words

 

 

On 2016-08-30 19:12, Florian Lohoff wrote:


Hola,

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 05:03:39PM +0200, Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote:
Warning: flame thread about to start.

El tirsdag 30. august 2016 16.50.14 CEST Oleksiy Muzalyev escribió:
It is clear that in Iceland there are street signs. However, a growing
number of people on Earth is living in slums [1] or slum-like areas,
where a classical system of addresses from the 19th century is not
affordable.

Oh for fucks sake. Tell me what's not affordable about spray-painting letters
on the sides of buildings?

http://www.upu.int/en/activities/addressing/addressing-the-world-initiative.html
http://www.upu.int/fileadmin/documentsFiles/activities/addressingAssistance/brochureWhitePaperEn.pdf
http://www.upu.int/fileadmin/documentsFiles/activities/addressingAssistance/brochureAddressingTheWorldEn.pdf

Although i think the Upu has some serious conflicts in their members and goals.

Deutsche Post and British Postal Service are both members, and both claim copyright
on the postcode database. So the members of the UPU do not conform to the claimed "public good"
of addressing.

I think OSM could be a major piece in generating addresses for the billions
currently unaddressed - still - its a huge task.

Flo

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Re: Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

Oleksiy Muzalyev
On 31/08/16 07:54, Andreas Vilén wrote:
"frame;lock;door" hmm... or was it "frame;lock;window"? ---> mail gets delivered to the other side of the world. If you write "Main street 15" instead of "Main street 13" it will probably get delivered correctly anyway as long as the name is correct.

Also, tell people who are supposed to deliver mail in the favelas of Brazil to constantly wear a smartphone around their neck and you will see very few people willing to do that work...

Imo it's better to let these areas choose their own (classic) addresses and then report these to the authorities.

/Andreas
It looks like they are trying to do exactly this. Here is a map of a part of Rio de Janeiro in Brasil: http://osm.org/go/OVcch3Alh- .

But this approach is not scalable, - even on this map you can see three Rua C, four Rua A (Rua means Street in Portuguese). Without a central authority it will end up in numerous duplicates.

I heard that in such areas of a city a smartphone is a basic necessity, because if one leaves home when it is dark outside it is difficult to find way back as there are no street signs, and one may realistically get lost till dawn.

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Re: Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

Maarten Deen
On 2016-08-31 09:39, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote:
> On 31/08/16 07:54, Andreas Vilén wrote:

>> Imo it's better to let these areas choose their own (classic)
>> addresses and then report these to the authorities.
>>
>> /Andreas
>  It looks like they are trying to do exactly this. Here is a map of a
> part of Rio de Janeiro in Brasil: http://osm.org/go/OVcch3Alh- .
>
> But this approach is not scalable, - even on this map you can see
> three _Rua C_, four _Rua A_ (Rua means Street in Portuguese). Without
> a central authority it will end up in numerous duplicates.

These look to be gated communities. Like here:
<http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/-22.92908/-43.37196>
<https://goo.gl/maps/hGeikyk4X2r>
Condominio Barao da Taquara

So the address would be something like Rua E., Condominio Barao da
Taquara, Rio de Janeiro.

> I heard that in such areas of a city a smartphone is a basic
> necessity, because if one leaves home when it is dark outside it is
> difficult to find way back as there are no street signs, and one may
> realistically get lost till dawn.

How did people manage before the age of smartphones, accurate GPS and
free maps?

Regards,
Maarten


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Re: Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Oleksiy Muzalyev


sent from a phone

Il giorno 31 ago 2016, alle ore 09:39, Oleksiy Muzalyev <[hidden email]> ha scritto:

But this approach is not scalable, - even on this map you can see three Rua C, four Rua A (Rua means Street in Portuguese).


first it wouldn't harm to get a tiny bit more creative when choosing the street names and second this is where post codes come into play 


Without a central authority it will end up in numerous duplicates.


there is a central authority in Brazil, there are very few places without any kind of central authority 


cheers,
Martin 

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Re: Maritime boundary missing. How to fix?

Walter Nordmann
In reply to this post by Oleksiy Muzalyev
Hi Evan,

this has been done right now. (not by me, but i know and trust that guy).

Mapnik rendering is not yet finished on all levels.

Regards
walter/germany



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[url=http://osm.wno-edv-service.de/residentials] Missing Residentials Map 1.17[/url] [url=http://osm.wno-edv-service.de/plz] Postcode Map 2.0.2[/url]
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Re: [flame] Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

Iván Sánchez Ortega
In reply to this post by Oleksiy Muzalyev
El onsdag 31. august 2016 09.39.46 CEST Oleksiy Muzalyev escribió:
> But this approach is not scalable, - even on this map you can see three
> /Rua C/, four /Rua A/ (Rua means Street in Portuguese). Without a
> central authority it will end up in numerous duplicates.

See, Oleksiy, you're once again trying to steer the conversation your way by
abusing strawman arguments and false dichotomies.

So it goes like this:

You: "Classical addresses suffer from problem A, and it's either perfection or
a huge problem A, so magical addressing system must be put in place".

Someone else: "You will not achieve perfection with magical addressing system,
besides, A will be a problem no matter what and there are other alternatives
to mitigate A."

You: "Those alternatives suffer from problem B, and it's either perfection or
a huge problem B, so magical addressing system must be put in place".

Someone else: "You will not achieve perfection with magical addressing system,
besides, B will be a problem no matter what and there are other alternatives
to mitigate B."

You: "Those alternatives suffer from problem C, and it's either perfection or
a huge problem C, so magical addressing system must be put in place".

... and so on, and so on, and so on.

After years of seeing flame threads and trolling, detecting this stuff gets
tiring. You're mixing the use cases of delivering mail with being lost at
night, creating a strawman out of that, and with a false dichotomy, point out
that there is one and just one solution.


Postal addressing, land rights, parcel ownership, record management, and
territories contested between authorities are all difficult and interconnected
issues, AND THERE IS NO FUCKING MAGIC SILVER BULLET THAT WILL SOLVE ALL OR ANY
OF THOSE.


So if anybody tries to push a silver bullet solution to any of those, it will
trigger reactions and problems in the rest.

e.g. A change in the addressing system will impact land ownership management.
Does a person reachable by an address own the rights to just the addressed
area, to more, or to less? How to link those?


I know it's very easy to have this kind of tunnel vision where something cool
will fix a problem, and fixing that problem cascades in fixing all the
problems. But in the vast majority of cases, the side effects of these "silver
bullet solutions" are way, way greater than the good of the expected outcome.


</flame>


P.S. Kudos to the folks at Cadasta, who know the challenges of land ownership
better than me or anybody on this list.

P.P.S. If you want to give a fuck about magic addressing systems, use
www.what3fucks.com

--
Iván Sánchez Ortega <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]>
<[hidden email]>

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Re: Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

Oleksiy Muzalyev
In reply to this post by Maarten Deen
On 31/08/16 10:03, Maarten Deen wrote:
>
> How did people manage before the age of smartphones, accurate GPS and
> free maps?
>
> Regards,
> Maarten
Felix Dellatre, a German who lives in Managua, told in his presentation
"Community mapping in Nicaragua" at the OSM US conference in San
Francisco in 2013, that people do not come after dark because of the
risk of being lost. They cannot go to the cinema, theater, courses, etc.

He also said that the absence of address system makes it impossible to
call police or ambulance, and as a result local informal "authorities"
emerge which try to establish a semblance of an order. He told that
addresses are given is such a way as: "make four hundred steps to the
north from the place of a burnt church, and ask Miguel".

Please, note than both Nicaragua and especially Brasil are relatively
well-to-do countries with stable central authorities. You may look at
the maps of the cities of many other countries and see that a lot of
areas do not have street names at all and will never have them. The
current system of street names and house numbers is not scalable, and it
is not suitable for the whole world. The same as say, excuse me, a flush
toilet system, which is common in Europe and North America, and yet it
is absolutely not applicable for many other places. You may see this
excellent BBC documentary "The Toilet An unspoken History" about it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZHm3vkavgM .

I am sorry for this a bit too strong example, but it illustrates well
that not all things to which we are accustomed are applicable elsewhere,
especially in a places with scarce resources.

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Re: Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

ebel
In reply to this post by Oleksiy Muzalyev
Related to this, someone in Ireland is playing a game with the Irish
postal service (An Post), and seeing what sort of addresses they will
interpret.

   https://www.thejournal.ie/me-versus-an-post-2143603-Jun2015/
   http://meversusanpost.tumblr.com/

He's posted a mobius strip, crossword puzzle, and sliding puzzle.


On 30/08/16 15:44, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote:

> https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/50a5pk/without_an_address_an_icelandic_tourist_drew_this/?ref=share&ref_source=link
>
>
> I never saw this type of addressing on an envelope. It is interesting
> because the system with the street name signs and the house number
> plaques is very expensive, requires a lot of service, dedicated
> lightning, etc.
>
> Here is this place on the OSM map:
>
> http://osm.org/go/e1DQElSx--?m=
>
> It took just several seconds to find it (even without knowledge of the
> Icelandic language).
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


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Re: Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

Andy Mabbett
In reply to this post by Iván Sánchez Ortega
On 30 August 2016 at 16:03, Iván Sánchez Ortega <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> a classical system of addresses from the 19th century is not
>> affordable.

> Tell me what's not affordable about spray-painting letters
> on the sides of buildings?

The costs of surveying, allocating street names (while ensuring no
duplicates), allocating numbers to properties/ entrances, hosting a
lookup database, etc.

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

Morten Lange
Hi,

1. Did anyone yet bring into this discussion the Japanese adresse system ? 

According to Wikipedia: 
"Street names are seldom used in postal addresses (except in Kyoto and some Hokkaidō cities such as Sapporo), and most Japanese streets do not have names.
Banchi blocks often have an irregular shape, as banchi numbers were assigned by order of registration in the older system, meaning that especially in older areas of the city they will not run in a linear order. It is for this reason that when giving directions to a location, most people will offer cross streets, visual landmarks andsubway stations, such as "at Chūō-dori and Matsuya-dori across the street from Matsuya and Ginza station" for a store in Tokyo. In fact, many businesses have maps on their literature and business cards. In addition, signs attached to utility poles often specify the city district name and block number, and detailed block maps of the immediate area are sometimes posted near bus stops and train station exits.
In addition to the address itself, all locations in Japan have a postal code. After the reform of 1998, this begins with a three-digit number, a hyphen, and a four-digit number, for example 123-4567. A postal mark, 〒, may precede the code to indicate that the number following is a postal code.
"


2. 
I also feel a need to reiterate that in Iceland there are formal postal addresses that work. The thing in the story that started this thread was the letter was sent from a guy/gal who did not bother to try write down the address (or lost it or only though of writing once they got home ).  And being a not very populous society, and especially a sparsely built area of Iceland, drawing a simple map and describing the people worked "flawlessly" :-)   A fun story and heartening, but if many would do the same and not research a bit before sending letters, if would not be fun any more ... especially if sending to someone more "anonymos"   ;-) 

 
-- 
 Regards / Kveðja / Hilsen Morten Lange, Reykjavík



From: Andy Mabbett <[hidden email]>
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, 5 September 2016, 10:11
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

On 30 August 2016 at 16:03, Iván Sánchez Ortega <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> a classical system of addresses from the 19th century is not
>> affordable.

> Tell me what's not affordable about spray-painting letters
> on the sides of buildings?

The costs of surveying, allocating street names (while ensuring no
duplicates), allocating numbers to properties/ entrances, hosting a
lookup database, etc.

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk


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Re: Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

Oleksiy Muzalyev
In reply to this post by ebel
I typed "slums" in Google and looked at resulting numerous images of slums. I tried to imagine where to place street signs or block number plaques. Often the walls of shacks are made from a mixture of worn-out fabric, cardboard, corrugated iron.

Even if street signs are placed on poles, I am afraid these poles will be stolen and reused for building or improving a shack. At the same time there are quite a few multi-storey cabins, so just GPS coordinates or three words are not enough. The address should also contain somehow a floor number.

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