Working with lat and long simply

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Working with lat and long simply

john whelan-2
In many parts of the world addresses don't exist.

There are multiple schemes that will create addresses using three words, etc.

However lat and long exists for everywhere on the planet.

Internally .osm files have the lat and long for every POI.

However dig it out of the xml code and drop it into Nomination and you get an error.  lat='45.472891' lon='-75.4891002'

What sort of accuracy would we need?  Do we need all the digits?  Can we build something with a check digit in to help with transposition errors.

Is there some way to be able to dig out the lat and long easily from OSM for a non technical user?  Something that could be cut and pasted?  and search for a location using latitude and longitude?

Note none of this cannot be solved technically its more finding a process(es) to make it more user friendly for those who may not have a PhD in GIS.

Thanks John


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Re: Working with lat and long simply

Oleksiy Muzalyev
On 10/09/16 17:43, john whelan wrote:
In many parts of the world addresses don't exist.

There are multiple schemes that will create addresses using three words, etc.

However lat and long exists for everywhere on the planet.

Internally .osm files have the lat and long for every POI.

However dig it out of the xml code and drop it into Nomination and you get an error.  lat='45.472891' lon='-75.4891002'

What sort of accuracy would we need?  Do we need all the digits?  Can we build something with a check digit in to help with transposition errors.

Is there some way to be able to dig out the lat and long easily from OSM for a non technical user?  Something that could be cut and pasted?  and search for a location using latitude and longitude?

Note none of this cannot be solved technically its more finding a process(es) to make it more user friendly for those who may not have a PhD in GIS.

Thanks John



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Hello John,

I usually create a link at the OSM map in the Share section and then dig out from the link a latitude and a longitude for a place.

It is a very good idea to create an easy way to extract a latitude and longitude for a location on the OSM map say to clipboard in one click, and then vice versa, just drop two figures into the search box and get a marker on the map, - does not matter if these two figures separated by colon, space, etc. And make the same functionality on mobile version, in JOSM, apps, etc.

Latitude and longitude are physical values, they will never change for a house on Earth, no matter what. They do not depend on politics, economics, linguistics of the current moment.

Certainly, for most OSM mappers an address is not an issue, however we could take a part of responsibility and create an address system for billions of people who do not have it.


I was impressed when I read Article #70 [1] of the new constitution of the Canton of Vaud (my translation in English):

Chapter 9 Associations and volunteers

Art. 70
1 The state and municipalities take into account the role of associations and recognize their importance.
2 They may grant to recognized associations support for their activities of general interest.
3 They may delegate them tasks within the framework of partnership contracts.
4 They facilitate volunteering and training for volunteers.


I mean an association like the OSM has got its importance and its share of responsibility, and it does not matter if it consists from volunteers.

Again great idea of yours, simple and elegant.

[1] https://www.admin.ch/opc/fr/classified-compilation/20030172/201503110000/131.231.pdf

Best regards,

Oleksiy





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Re: Working with lat and long simply

john whelan-2

To make it really simple if we could encode the lat and long in a bar code then a delivery person with a smartphone could scan the bar code and have the address displayed on a map.

That makes life much more interesting as now you can give someone a list of packages in the order they are to be delivered in and then all they need to do on delivering one is scan the next to see where to go to next on the map.

That saves time which means money which means it stands a much better chance of being adopted.

Cheerio John


On 10 Sep 2016 12:55 pm, "Oleksiy Muzalyev" <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 10/09/16 17:43, john whelan wrote:
In many parts of the world addresses don't exist.

There are multiple schemes that will create addresses using three words, etc.

However lat and long exists for everywhere on the planet.

Internally .osm files have the lat and long for every POI.

However dig it out of the xml code and drop it into Nomination and you get an error.  lat='45.472891' lon='-75.4891002'

What sort of accuracy would we need?  Do we need all the digits?  Can we build something with a check digit in to help with transposition errors.

Is there some way to be able to dig out the lat and long easily from OSM for a non technical user?  Something that could be cut and pasted?  and search for a location using latitude and longitude?

Note none of this cannot be solved technically its more finding a process(es) to make it more user friendly for those who may not have a PhD in GIS.

Thanks John



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Hello John,

I usually create a link at the OSM map in the Share section and then dig out from the link a latitude and a longitude for a place.

It is a very good idea to create an easy way to extract a latitude and longitude for a location on the OSM map say to clipboard in one click, and then vice versa, just drop two figures into the search box and get a marker on the map, - does not matter if these two figures separated by colon, space, etc. And make the same functionality on mobile version, in JOSM, apps, etc.

Latitude and longitude are physical values, they will never change for a house on Earth, no matter what. They do not depend on politics, economics, linguistics of the current moment.

Certainly, for most OSM mappers an address is not an issue, however we could take a part of responsibility and create an address system for billions of people who do not have it.


I was impressed when I read Article #70 [1] of the new constitution of the Canton of Vaud (my translation in English):

Chapter 9 Associations and volunteers

Art. 70
1 The state and municipalities take into account the role of associations and recognize their importance.
2 They may grant to recognized associations support for their activities of general interest.
3 They may delegate them tasks within the framework of partnership contracts.
4 They facilitate volunteering and training for volunteers.


I mean an association like the OSM has got its importance and its share of responsibility, and it does not matter if it consists from volunteers.

Again great idea of yours, simple and elegant.

[1] https://www.admin.ch/opc/fr/classified-compilation/20030172/201503110000/131.231.pdf

Best regards,

Oleksiy





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Re: Working with lat and long simply

Colin Smale
In reply to this post by Oleksiy Muzalyev

On 2016-09-10 18:55, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote:

Latitude and longitude are physical values, they will never change for a house on Earth, no matter what. They do not depend on politics, economics, linguistics of the current moment.

 

You sure about that? Plate tectonics means that everything is in motion, albeit slowly. On top of that there have been a couple of "adjustments" to WGS84 which have caused coordinates to change.

//colin


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Re: Working with lat and long simply

john whelan-2

I see to recall that Australia is on the move.  So it would seem that we should retain as much accuracy as possible then if we're a metre out it isn't quite so important.

I think any generic addressing scheme is going to suffer from parts of the world moving though and it is a limitation we have to work with.  From a practical point of view just grabbing a new address every decade would probably work fairly well.

Cheerio John


On 10 Sep 2016 2:26 pm, "Colin Smale" <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 2016-09-10 18:55, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote:

Latitude and longitude are physical values, they will never change for a house on Earth, no matter what. They do not depend on politics, economics, linguistics of the current moment.

 

You sure about that? Plate tectonics means that everything is in motion, albeit slowly. On top of that there have been a couple of "adjustments" to WGS84 which have caused coordinates to change.

//colin


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Re: Working with lat and long simply

Oleksiy Muzalyev
In reply to this post by Colin Smale
On 10/09/16 20:23, Colin Smale wrote:

On 2016-09-10 18:55, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote:

Latitude and longitude are physical values, they will never change for a house on Earth, no matter what. They do not depend on politics, economics, linguistics of the current moment.

 

You sure about that? Plate tectonics means that everything is in motion, albeit slowly. On top of that there have been a couple of "adjustments" to WGS84 which have caused coordinates to change.

//colin



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Indeed, 2 - 5 cm per year. It is a lot. I did not think they move so fast. Two-five meters per century. Then if we use this method, a marker should be pointed initially to the middle of a house, so that in a hundred years it is still pointing to its edge.


However, street names change too, - for example: http://novgorod.me/media/live/2015/04/AS9dCvAZDuY-1-600x310.jpg , sometimes several times per century as on this photo. Not even street name, but even language and alphabet changed three times.


I could not find out though how significantly coordinates changed with "adjustments" to WGS84, and if such adjustments will continue.

Best regards,

Oleksiy



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Re: Working with lat and long simply

Oleksiy Muzalyev
In reply to this post by john whelan-2
On 10/09/16 20:46, john whelan wrote:

>
> I see to recall that Australia is on the move.  So it would seem that
> we should retain as much accuracy as possible then if we're a metre
> out it isn't quite so important.
>
> I think any generic addressing scheme is going to suffer from parts of
> the world moving though and it is a limitation we have to work with.  
> From a practical point of view just grabbing a new address every
> decade would probably work fairly well.
>
> Cheerio John
>
I wish an address could be more stable than a decade, as it should be
used also in property documents. If it is 2 - 5 meters per century, then
it is still acceptable.

I wonder how "three words" services plan to deal with it? Recalculating
coordinates behind the scene? But in a century there will be probably no
these services, and no Internet as we know it. It is a lot of time. But
latitude and longitude will still exist. And it would be possible to
recalculate them taking into account the tectonic plates factual
movement to prove property rights.

Best regards,
Oleksiy

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Re: Working with lat and long simply

john whelan-2
I think 2-5 meters per century is acceptable and means lat / long is an acceptable method but since some houses are less than this in width it would probably be an idea to refresh the address once in a while.

Cheerio John

On 10 September 2016 at 15:02, Oleksiy Muzalyev <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 10/09/16 20:46, john whelan wrote:

I see to recall that Australia is on the move.  So it would seem that we should retain as much accuracy as possible then if we're a metre out it isn't quite so important.

I think any generic addressing scheme is going to suffer from parts of the world moving though and it is a limitation we have to work with.  From a practical point of view just grabbing a new address every decade would probably work fairly well.

Cheerio John

I wish an address could be more stable than a decade, as it should be used also in property documents. If it is 2 - 5 meters per century, then it is still acceptable.

I wonder how "three words" services plan to deal with it? Recalculating coordinates behind the scene? But in a century there will be probably no these services, and no Internet as we know it. It is a lot of time. But latitude and longitude will still exist. And it would be possible to recalculate them taking into account the tectonic plates factual movement to prove property rights.

Best regards,
Oleksiy


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Re: Working with lat and long simply

Jóhannes Birgir Jensson
In reply to this post by Oleksiy Muzalyev
Þann 10.09.2016 18:47, Oleksiy Muzalyev reit:

> On 10/09/16 20:23, Colin Smale wrote:
>
>> On 2016-09-10 18:55, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote:
>>
>>> Latitude and longitude are physical values, they will never change
>>> for a house on Earth, no matter what. They do not depend on
>>> politics, economics, linguistics of the current moment.
>>
>> You sure about that? Plate tectonics means that everything is in
>> motion, albeit slowly. On top of that there have been a couple of
>> "adjustments" to WGS84 which have caused coordinates to change.

Hello and welcome to the wonderful world of plate tectonics.

Iceland has its own co-ordinate system ISN and makes an updated version
every decade. We still use ISN93 mostly but we also have a ISN2004 and
the difference there was between 7 cm and 23 cm from the previous
decade. Iceland is slowly migrating not only north but the western part
is going west and the eastern part is going more east with the southern
part starting to lag behind in movement and a few points there starting
to migrate more south.

Work is ongoing on ISN2016 measurements.
http://www.euref.eu/symposia/2015Leipzig/06-12-Iceland.pdf

This is also why we are not always overly fastidious in making a
millimeter accurate feature on OpenStreetMap because it is gonna shift
anyways.

--
Jói

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Re: Working with lat and long simply

michael spreng
In reply to this post by john whelan-2
On 10/09/16 17:43, john whelan wrote:
> However dig it out of the xml code and drop it into Nomination and you
> get an error.  lat='45.472891' lon='-75.4891002'
What kind of error do you get? Works for me:
http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/search.php?q=45.4729+-75.4891

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Re: Working with lat and long simply

john whelan-2
The issue isn't that nomination won't handle lat and long it is that you cannot cut and paste from the xml code.  "lat='45.472891' lon='-75.4891002'" doesn't work.  You have to know enough or have the instructions to hand to strip off the unwanted lat= and lon=.

It is currently inconsistent, and that's a problem for those without a PhD in GIS.  One solution could be a write up in the wiki.

Cheerio John

On 10 September 2016 at 15:27, michael spreng <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 10/09/16 17:43, john whelan wrote:
> However dig it out of the xml code and drop it into Nomination and you
> get an error.  lat='45.472891' lon='-75.4891002'
What kind of error do you get? Works for me:
http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/search.php?q=45.4729+-75.4891

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Re: Working with lat and long simply

Imre Samu
>...nominatim ...
>It is currently inconsistent, and that's a problem for those without a PhD in GIS. 

If you have a suggestions ->  Nominatim issues:    https://github.com/twain47/Nominatim/issues


2016-09-10 21:34 GMT+02:00 john whelan <[hidden email]>:
The issue isn't that nomination won't handle lat and long it is that you cannot cut and paste from the xml code.  "lat='45.472891' lon='-75.4891002'" doesn't work.  You have to know enough or have the instructions to hand to strip off the unwanted lat= and lon=.

It is currently inconsistent, and that's a problem for those without a PhD in GIS.  One solution could be a write up in the wiki.

Cheerio John

On 10 September 2016 at 15:27, michael spreng <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 10/09/16 17:43, john whelan wrote:
> However dig it out of the xml code and drop it into Nomination and you
> get an error.  lat='45.472891' lon='-75.4891002'
What kind of error do you get? Works for me:
http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/search.php?q=45.4729+-75.4891

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Re: Working with lat and long simply

john whelan-2

I'm not sure that it is an issue.  If the lat and long can be extracted in the way that Nomination can handle it isn't an issue.

The bigger issue at the moment is how do you extract the lat and long easily?  Downloading a bit of OSM into JOSM, saving the file as .XML then using something like notepad++ to manually extract the values isn't a very practical way for nonmappers to extract the values.

Cheerio John


On 10 Sep 2016 4:09 pm, "Imre Samu" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>...nominatim ...
>It is currently inconsistent, and that's a problem for those without a PhD in GIS. 

If you have a suggestions ->  Nominatim issues:    https://github.com/twain47/Nominatim/issues


2016-09-10 21:34 GMT+02:00 john whelan <[hidden email]>:
The issue isn't that nomination won't handle lat and long it is that you cannot cut and paste from the xml code.  "lat='45.472891' lon='-75.4891002'" doesn't work.  You have to know enough or have the instructions to hand to strip off the unwanted lat= and lon=.

It is currently inconsistent, and that's a problem for those without a PhD in GIS.  One solution could be a write up in the wiki.

Cheerio John

On 10 September 2016 at 15:27, michael spreng <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 10/09/16 17:43, john whelan wrote:
> However dig it out of the xml code and drop it into Nomination and you
> get an error.  lat='45.472891' lon='-75.4891002'
What kind of error do you get? Works for me:
http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/search.php?q=45.4729+-75.4891

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Re: Working with lat and long simply

Craig Wallace
On 2016-09-10 21:23, john whelan wrote:
> I'm not sure that it is an issue.  If the lat and long can be extracted
> in the way that Nomination can handle it isn't an issue.
>
> The bigger issue at the moment is how do you extract the lat and long
> easily?  Downloading a bit of OSM into JOSM, saving the file as .XML
> then using something like notepad++ to manually extract the values isn't
> a very practical way for nonmappers to extract the values.

Click on "Where am I?", then it gives you the latitude/longitude for the
centre of the map.
Or click the "Share" button, then it gives several formats of URLs that
include the latitude/longitude.


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Re: Working with lat and long simply

Sarah Hoffmann
In reply to this post by john whelan-2
On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 04:23:21PM -0400, john whelan wrote:
> I'm not sure that it is an issue.  If the lat and long can be extracted in
> the way that Nomination can handle it isn't an issue.
>
> The bigger issue at the moment is how do you extract the lat and long
> easily?  Downloading a bit of OSM into JOSM, saving the file as .XML then
> using something like notepad++ to manually extract the values isn't a very
> practical way for nonmappers to extract the values.

For nodes, the location is displayed on osm.org in a format that is
nicely copyable and compatible with search.
For example: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1759453982
displays "Location: 51.5171393, -0.094835"
Reverse Query: https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=51.5171393,-0.094835
works like a charm.

It's a bit more complicated for areas. Nominatim can help but it's
not exactly straightforward.
Example:

1. go to https://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/
2. Type "Statue of Liberty"
3. Click on the desired result and then 'Details'.
4. Copy coordinates at 'Centre Point' line.

Sarah

>
> Cheerio John
>
> On 10 Sep 2016 4:09 pm, "Imre Samu" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > >...nominatim ...
> > >It is currently inconsistent, and that's a problem for those without a
> > PhD in GIS.
> >
> > If you have a suggestions ->  Nominatim issues:
> > https://github.com/twain47/Nominatim/issues
> >
> >
> > 2016-09-10 21:34 GMT+02:00 john whelan <[hidden email]>:
> >
> >> The issue isn't that nomination won't handle lat and long it is that you
> >> cannot cut and paste from the xml code.  "lat='45.472891'
> >> lon='-75.4891002'" doesn't work.  You have to know enough or have the
> >> instructions to hand to strip off the unwanted lat= and lon=.
> >>
> >> It is currently inconsistent, and that's a problem for those without a
> >> PhD in GIS.  One solution could be a write up in the wiki.
> >>
> >> Cheerio John
> >>
> >> On 10 September 2016 at 15:27, michael spreng <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 10/09/16 17:43, john whelan wrote:
> >>> > However dig it out of the xml code and drop it into Nomination and you
> >>> > get an error.  lat='45.472891' lon='-75.4891002'
> >>> What kind of error do you get? Works for me:
> >>> http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/search.php?q=45.4729+-75.4891
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> talk mailing list
> >>> [hidden email]
> >>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> talk mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >>
> >>
> >

> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


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Re: Working with lat and long simply

john whelan-2

So essentially we're saying it's just a matter of documentation.  OSMand has the capability to display the lat and long of a poi as well and this can be cut and pasted so it looks as if we can use lat and long as an address system.

Thanks John


On 10 Sep 2016 4:54 pm, "Sarah Hoffmann" <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 04:23:21PM -0400, john whelan wrote:
> I'm not sure that it is an issue.  If the lat and long can be extracted in
> the way that Nomination can handle it isn't an issue.
>
> The bigger issue at the moment is how do you extract the lat and long
> easily?  Downloading a bit of OSM into JOSM, saving the file as .XML then
> using something like notepad++ to manually extract the values isn't a very
> practical way for nonmappers to extract the values.

For nodes, the location is displayed on osm.org in a format that is
nicely copyable and compatible with search.
For example: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1759453982
displays "Location: 51.5171393, -0.094835"
Reverse Query: https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=51.5171393,-0.094835
works like a charm.

It's a bit more complicated for areas. Nominatim can help but it's
not exactly straightforward.
Example:

1. go to https://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/
2. Type "Statue of Liberty"
3. Click on the desired result and then 'Details'.
4. Copy coordinates at 'Centre Point' line.

Sarah

>
> Cheerio John
>
> On 10 Sep 2016 4:09 pm, "Imre Samu" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > >...nominatim ...
> > >It is currently inconsistent, and that's a problem for those without a
> > PhD in GIS.
> >
> > If you have a suggestions ->  Nominatim issues:
> > https://github.com/twain47/Nominatim/issues
> >
> >
> > 2016-09-10 21:34 GMT+02:00 john whelan <[hidden email]>:
> >
> >> The issue isn't that nomination won't handle lat and long it is that you
> >> cannot cut and paste from the xml code.  "lat='45.472891'
> >> lon='-75.4891002'" doesn't work.  You have to know enough or have the
> >> instructions to hand to strip off the unwanted lat= and lon=.
> >>
> >> It is currently inconsistent, and that's a problem for those without a
> >> PhD in GIS.  One solution could be a write up in the wiki.
> >>
> >> Cheerio John
> >>
> >> On 10 September 2016 at 15:27, michael spreng <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 10/09/16 17:43, john whelan wrote:
> >>> > However dig it out of the xml code and drop it into Nomination and you
> >>> > get an error.  lat='45.472891' lon='-75.4891002'
> >>> What kind of error do you get? Works for me:
> >>> http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/search.php?q=45.4729+-75.4891
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> talk mailing list
> >>> [hidden email]
> >>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> talk mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >>
> >>
> >

> _______________________________________________
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Re: Working with lat and long simply

Oleksiy Muzalyev
On 10/09/16 23:02, john whelan wrote:
>
> So essentially we're saying it's just a matter of documentation.  
> OSMand has the capability to display the lat and long of a poi as well
> and this can be cut and pasted so it looks as if we can use lat and
> long as an address system.
>
> Thanks John
>
I would not agree. It is not the case. Certainly, one can find
coordinates of a node, or find them in a link produced in the Share section.

But there is no way to make a single click on a house and get two
figures of latitude and longitude to the clipboard, or in a popup
message box for copying. Not of a middle of the screen, not as part of
an URL, but just of the place of the one click.

I encountered exactly this problem when I was trying to explain a person
how to find coordinates for the Upload photo page of Wikimedia. I've
made screen shots, where I showed the link from the Share of the OSM and
how to cut latitude and longitude of a marker from this URL. It seems
relatively simple for me, but this person said, - no it is too
complicated and added the photo without coordinates.

Reverse Query:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=51.5171393,-0.094835 does
work, but it does not produce a marker pointing to the house. It
requires formatting, - coma between, and if there is say semicolon
between it does not work.

If latitude and longitude are to be used as an address system in the
regions just getting online, extracting lat and long from the OSM should
be in one click on a house while a marker appears on it after the click,
and getting a marker back on this house via search on two real numbers
separated by coma, semicolon, space, etc.

Best regards,
Oleksiy



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Re: Working with lat and long simply

moltonel 3x Combo


On 11 September 2016 04:50:06 GMT+01:00, Oleksiy Muzalyev <[hidden email]> wrote:
>But there is no way to make a single click on a house and get two
>figures of latitude and longitude to the clipboard, or in a popup
>message box for copying. Not of a middle of the screen, not as part of
>an URL, but just of the place of the one click.

Sounds like a simple enough addition to the 'question mark / nearby features' functionality on osm.org: make that popup display the coordinates of the clicked point. Maybe even add a 'copy to clipboard' button beside it.

--
Vincent Dp

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Re: Working with lat and long simply

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Oleksiy Muzalyev


sent from a phone

> Il giorno 11 set 2016, alle ore 05:50, Oleksiy Muzalyev <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
>
> I encountered exactly this problem when I was trying to explain a person how to find coordinates for the Upload photo page of Wikimedia


btw, the coordinates of a photo should be the location from where it was taken, not where it points to/what is on it


cheers,
Martin
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Re: Working with lat and long simply

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Oleksiy Muzalyev


sent from a phone

> Il giorno 10 set 2016, alle ore 20:47, Oleksiy Muzalyev <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
>
> Then if we use this method, a marker should be pointed initially to the middle of a house, so that in a hundred years it is still pointing to its edge.


if you store the date together with the position you can later calculate where it pointed to at this time. The date is stored automatically if you assume that there's not to much time between the measurement and adding it to the db

cheers,
Martin
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