World wide coverage?

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World wide coverage?

Andrew Turner
Hey everyone,

I'm curious on the slippy map and other displays that worldwide
coverage seems not only sparse/unshown, areas of the world just aren't
even displayed. For example, if you zoom out to the world view, you
only get the Northern Hemisphere, and not even the whole thing (west
coast of US and further cut off)

And at least in the US - when you zoom into areas that have apparent
OSM coverage - you just get the "... more OSM coming soon" message.

From right next to the map:
"OpenStreetMap is a free editable map of the whole world. It is made
by people like you.
OpenStreetMap allows you to view, edit and use geographical data in a
collaborative way from anywhere on Earth. "

I'm curious what the problem is with incorporating other areas? It
seems like it would be difficult to attract interest/excitement if
someone's country isn't even visible. I'm traveling to New Zealand and
wanted to use the OSMGarminMap to load some maps - and also contribute
waypoints back. However, it's discouraging that NZ isn't even on the
map at all.

Andrew

--
Andrew Turner
[hidden email]        42.4266N x 83.4931W
http://highearthorbit.com              Northville, Michigan, USA

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Re: World wide coverage?

Steve Coast
* @ 15/12/06 11:15:38 PM [hidden email] wrote:

> Hey everyone,
>
> I'm curious on the slippy map and other displays that worldwide
> coverage seems not only sparse/unshown, areas of the world just aren't
> even displayed. For example, if you zoom out to the world view, you
> only get the Northern Hemisphere, and not even the whole thing (west
> coast of US and further cut off)
>
> And at least in the US - when you zoom into areas that have apparent
> OSM coverage - you just get the "... more OSM coming soon" message.

Hi Andrew

This is the "why isn't $AREA shown on the slippy map" problem.

> >From right next to the map:
> "OpenStreetMap is a free editable map of the whole world. It is made
> by people like you.
> OpenStreetMap allows you to view, edit and use geographical data in a
> collaborative way from anywhere on Earth. "
>
> I'm curious what the problem is with incorporating other areas? It
> seems like it would be difficult to attract interest/excitement if
> someone's country isn't even visible. I'm traveling to New Zealand and

The second part of the first sentance you quoted is 'It is made by
people like you.'

I know you're a (F||O)SS person so I hope you take that to heart. :-)

If something is broken it isn't due to intended neglect or willful
ignorance. You're welcome to help tiles@home use the excellent
osmarender or metacarta with their WMS-C project. The default tiles also
need help, there are docs on the wiki for all of these I think.

have fun,

SteveC [hidden email] http://www.asklater.com/steve/

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Re: World wide coverage?

Andrew Turner
Agreed that I really want to contribute - like many others out there.
I was just voicing that I feel discouraged when I can't see the
efforts or even "availability to map here" of various - large -
geographic areas.

Right - so I guess I was pointing out that the front of OSM is very
Euro-centric, which is understandable given its history and probably
large current user/developer base. But as a non-Euro, with the
visitbility and assumedly desired visibility to branch out, may want
to consider how it appears to others.

Then I was hoping, as you did slightly, to get pointed to resources
that would help on this specific front. I haven't been able to keep up
with everything - but got the gist that TIGER is proving logistically
difficult - too bad. I'll get right on uploading my Michigan GPX files
;)

Andrew

On 12/15/06, SteveC <[hidden email]> wrote:

> * @ 15/12/06 11:15:38 PM [hidden email] wrote:
> > Hey everyone,
> >
> > I'm curious on the slippy map and other displays that worldwide
> > coverage seems not only sparse/unshown, areas of the world just aren't
> > even displayed. For example, if you zoom out to the world view, you
> > only get the Northern Hemisphere, and not even the whole thing (west
> > coast of US and further cut off)
> >
> > And at least in the US - when you zoom into areas that have apparent
> > OSM coverage - you just get the "... more OSM coming soon" message.
>
> Hi Andrew
>
> This is the "why isn't $AREA shown on the slippy map" problem.
>
> > >From right next to the map:
> > "OpenStreetMap is a free editable map of the whole world. It is made
> > by people like you.
> > OpenStreetMap allows you to view, edit and use geographical data in a
> > collaborative way from anywhere on Earth. "
> >
> > I'm curious what the problem is with incorporating other areas? It
> > seems like it would be difficult to attract interest/excitement if
> > someone's country isn't even visible. I'm traveling to New Zealand and
>
> The second part of the first sentance you quoted is 'It is made by
> people like you.'
>
> I know you're a (F||O)SS person so I hope you take that to heart. :-)
>
> If something is broken it isn't due to intended neglect or willful
> ignorance. You're welcome to help tiles@home use the excellent
> osmarender or metacarta with their WMS-C project. The default tiles also
> need help, there are docs on the wiki for all of these I think.
>
> have fun,
>
> SteveC [hidden email] http://www.asklater.com/steve/
>


--
Andrew Turner
[hidden email]        42.4266N x 83.4931W
http://highearthorbit.com              Northville, Michigan, USA

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Re: World wide coverage?

Mikel Maron
In reply to this post by Andrew Turner
A longish email where I talk about TIGER, data stewardship, almien coastlines, VMAP0 and New Zealand...


TIGER has been a bit of a saga. Ben Gimpert has put a lot of time into it, and has other things to focus on now.
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2006-November/009182.html
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2006-December/009231.html

Perhaps we should rethink how we're importing TIGER. One huge update script, running for months on end,
no one monitoring it closely, and one misstep in the implementation, it has to start all over again. Too long
between iterations.

If someone comes in and is interested in doing OSM for a particular US area, there should be a set of tools
to import just the counties they want. For instance, I wanted a few SFBay counties imported for Where 2.0
this year. Once imported, that data is going to be closely inspected. If there's a problem with the import
script, that will quickly be iterated out, and a counties worth of bad data can be removed vis JOSM easily.

This is the kind of personal stewardship we have with GPS derived data, and that should be fostered for
automated import as well.


I've added http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/WikiProject_United_States#Users_interested_in_the_United_States
to kick off some community around this.


Almien Coastlines works something like this, afaik, and even there I think there may need to be some revision
since areas are needed to designate the sea (a topic for another thread I think..).


At lower resolution, Mapnik is rendering VMap0. The global VMap 0 coverage is split into four files. Looks like
only the two northern hemisphere files are being used now. That should be easy to add into the tile generation.


For New Zealand, one of the OSM GPS units is currently taking a tour of New Zealand with  "John Wash (Surrey LUG)",
so looks like data collection is starting there. There's also apparently data for New Zealand in the public domain
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Potential_Datasources#New_Zealand, which has been converted for use in Garmins
(see the link there). Yahoo has detailed imagery over Auckland, so tracing possible.

So maybe after your (Andrew) trip around NZ, you'll be really stoked to kick these off as well ;)

-Mikel



----- Original Message ----
From: Andrew Turner <[hidden email]>
To: SteveC <[hidden email]>
Cc: Talk Openstreetmap <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 3:38:41 AM
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] World wide coverage?

Agreed that I really want to contribute - like many others out there.
I was just voicing that I feel discouraged when I can't see the
efforts or even "availability to map here" of various - large -
geographic areas.

Right - so I guess I was pointing out that the front of OSM is very
Euro-centric, which is understandable given its history and probably
large current user/developer base. But as a non-Euro, with the
visitbility and assumedly desired visibility to branch out, may want
to consider how it appears to others.

Then I was hoping, as you did slightly, to get pointed to resources
that would help on this specific front. I haven't been able to keep up
with everything - but got the gist that TIGER is proving logistically
difficult - too bad. I'll get right on uploading my Michigan GPX files
;)

Andrew

On 12/15/06, SteveC <[hidden email]> wrote:

> * @ 15/12/06 11:15:38 PM [hidden email] wrote:
> > Hey everyone,
> >
> > I'm curious on the slippy map and other displays that worldwide
> > coverage seems not only sparse/unshown, areas of the world just aren't
> > even displayed. For example, if you zoom out to the world view, you
> > only get the Northern Hemisphere, and not even the whole thing (west
> > coast of US and further cut off)
> >
> > And at least in the US - when you zoom into areas that have apparent
> > OSM coverage - you just get the "... more OSM coming soon" message.
>
> Hi Andrew
>
> This is the "why isn't $AREA shown on the slippy map" problem.
>
> > >From right next to the map:
> > "OpenStreetMap is a free editable map of the whole world. It is made
> > by people like you.
> > OpenStreetMap allows you to view, edit and use geographical data in a
> > collaborative way from anywhere on Earth. "
> >
> > I'm curious what the problem is with incorporating other areas? It
> > seems like it would be difficult to attract interest/excitement if
> > someone's country isn't even visible. I'm traveling to New Zealand and
>
> The second part of the first sentance you quoted is 'It is made by
> people like you.'
>
> I know you're a (F||O)SS person so I hope you take that to heart. :-)
>
> If something is broken it isn't due to intended neglect or willful
> ignorance. You're welcome to help tiles@home use the excellent
> osmarender or metacarta with their WMS-C project. The default tiles also
> need help, there are docs on the wiki for all of these I think.
>
> have fun,
>
> SteveC [hidden email] http://www.asklater.com/steve/
>


--
Andrew Turner
[hidden email]        42.4266N x 83.4931W
http://highearthorbit.com              Northville, Michigan, USA

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[hidden email]
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk




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Re: World wide coverage?

ANDY ROBINSON-2
Excellent post Mikel,
Cheers

Andy

Andy Robinson
[hidden email]

>-----Original Message-----
>From: [hidden email] [mailto:talk-
>[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mikel Maron
>Sent: 16 December 2006 7:56 AM
>To: Andrew Turner; SteveC
>Cc: Talk Openstreetmap
>Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] World wide coverage?
>
>A longish email where I talk about TIGER, data stewardship, almien
>coastlines, VMAP0 and New Zealand...
>
>
>TIGER has been a bit of a saga. Ben Gimpert has put a lot of time into it,
>and has other things to focus on now.
>http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2006-November/009182.html
>http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2006-December/009231.html
>
>Perhaps we should rethink how we're importing TIGER. One huge update
>script, running for months on end,
>no one monitoring it closely, and one misstep in the implementation, it has
>to start all over again. Too long
>between iterations.
>
>If someone comes in and is interested in doing OSM for a particular US
>area, there should be a set of tools
>to import just the counties they want. For instance, I wanted a few SFBay
>counties imported for Where 2.0
>this year. Once imported, that data is going to be closely inspected. If
>there's a problem with the import
>script, that will quickly be iterated out, and a counties worth of bad data
>can be removed vis JOSM easily.
>
>This is the kind of personal stewardship we have with GPS derived data, and
>that should be fostered for
>automated import as well.
>
>
>I've added
>http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/WikiProject_United_States#Users_int
>erested_in_the_United_States
>to kick off some community around this.
>
>
>Almien Coastlines works something like this, afaik, and even there I think
>there may need to be some revision
>since areas are needed to designate the sea (a topic for another thread I
>think..).
>
>
>At lower resolution, Mapnik is rendering VMap0. The global VMap 0 coverage
>is split into four files. Looks like
>only the two northern hemisphere files are being used now. That should be
>easy to add into the tile generation.
>
>
>For New Zealand, one of the OSM GPS units is currently taking a tour of New
>Zealand with  "John Wash (Surrey LUG)",
>so looks like data collection is starting there. There's also apparently
>data for New Zealand in the public domain
>http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Potential_Datasources#New_Zealand,
>which has been converted for use in Garmins
>(see the link there). Yahoo has detailed imagery over Auckland, so tracing
>possible.
>
>So maybe after your (Andrew) trip around NZ, you'll be really stoked to
>kick these off as well ;)
>
>-Mikel
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Andrew Turner <[hidden email]>
>To: SteveC <[hidden email]>
>Cc: Talk Openstreetmap <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 3:38:41 AM
>Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] World wide coverage?
>
>Agreed that I really want to contribute - like many others out there.
>I was just voicing that I feel discouraged when I can't see the
>efforts or even "availability to map here" of various - large -
>geographic areas.
>
>Right - so I guess I was pointing out that the front of OSM is very
>Euro-centric, which is understandable given its history and probably
>large current user/developer base. But as a non-Euro, with the
>visitbility and assumedly desired visibility to branch out, may want
>to consider how it appears to others.
>
>Then I was hoping, as you did slightly, to get pointed to resources
>that would help on this specific front. I haven't been able to keep up
>with everything - but got the gist that TIGER is proving logistically
>difficult - too bad. I'll get right on uploading my Michigan GPX files
>;)
>
>Andrew
>
>On 12/15/06, SteveC <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> * @ 15/12/06 11:15:38 PM [hidden email] wrote:
>> > Hey everyone,
>> >
>> > I'm curious on the slippy map and other displays that worldwide
>> > coverage seems not only sparse/unshown, areas of the world just aren't
>> > even displayed. For example, if you zoom out to the world view, you
>> > only get the Northern Hemisphere, and not even the whole thing (west
>> > coast of US and further cut off)
>> >
>> > And at least in the US - when you zoom into areas that have apparent
>> > OSM coverage - you just get the "... more OSM coming soon" message.
>>
>> Hi Andrew
>>
>> This is the "why isn't $AREA shown on the slippy map" problem.
>>
>> > >From right next to the map:
>> > "OpenStreetMap is a free editable map of the whole world. It is made
>> > by people like you.
>> > OpenStreetMap allows you to view, edit and use geographical data in a
>> > collaborative way from anywhere on Earth. "
>> >
>> > I'm curious what the problem is with incorporating other areas? It
>> > seems like it would be difficult to attract interest/excitement if
>> > someone's country isn't even visible. I'm traveling to New Zealand and
>>
>> The second part of the first sentance you quoted is 'It is made by
>> people like you.'
>>
>> I know you're a (F||O)SS person so I hope you take that to heart. :-)
>>
>> If something is broken it isn't due to intended neglect or willful
>> ignorance. You're welcome to help tiles@home use the excellent
>> osmarender or metacarta with their WMS-C project. The default tiles also
>> need help, there are docs on the wiki for all of these I think.
>>
>> have fun,
>>
>> SteveC [hidden email] http://www.asklater.com/steve/
>>
>
>
>--
>Andrew Turner
>[hidden email]        42.4266N x 83.4931W
>http://highearthorbit.com              Northville, Michigan, USA
>
>_______________________________________________
>talk mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>talk mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk



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Re: World wide coverage?

Andrew Turner
In reply to this post by Mikel Maron
Thanks for the great pointers - this is exactly what I was looking
for. There's a lot of history and knowledge in OSM and I just wasn't
sure where to start for the US.

I agree that imported data should be treated with the same care as
user-generated data. Perhaps as even a first pass would be to just
expose the TIGER data like GPS collected data for others (like myself
in Michigan) to make segments & ways from.

Once I get back from NZ - I'm willing to help babysit import scripts
for areas that I know.

And perhaps I'll run into John Wash - wonder if he's keeping a
geoblog/location tracker anywhere... ;)

Andrew

--
Andrew Turner
[hidden email]        42.4266N x 83.4931W
http://highearthorbit.com              Northville, Michigan, USA

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Re: World wide coverage?

Andrew Findlay
In reply to this post by Andrew Turner
On Fri, Dec 15, 2006 at 06:15:38PM -0500, Andrew Turner wrote:

> I'm curious what the problem is with incorporating other areas? It
> seems like it would be difficult to attract interest/excitement if
> someone's country isn't even visible. I'm traveling to New Zealand and
> wanted to use the OSMGarminMap to load some maps - and also contribute
> waypoints back. However, it's discouraging that NZ isn't even on the
> map at all.

There is certainly OSM data for NZ because I put some there! In
particular there is coverage around the Tongariro National Park and
on Great Barrier Island. Someone else has been at work too, a bit
further west.

Unfortunately the slippy map does not seem to have coast outlines for
that part of the world so it can be rather hard to find. Here is a
URL that JOSM should understand:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/index.html?lat=-39.140497673380764&lon=175.573797226&zoom=8

I am currently updating some of the ways to the current map-features
standard so that they will render properly.

Andrew

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Re: World wide coverage?

Robert T Wyatt
In reply to this post by Mikel Maron
Mikel Maron wrote:

> If someone comes in and is interested in doing OSM for a particular US area, there should be a set of tools
> to import just the counties they want. For instance, I wanted a few SFBay counties imported for Where 2.0
> this year. Once imported, that data is going to be closely inspected. If there's a problem with the import
> script, that will quickly be iterated out, and a counties worth of bad data can be removed vis JOSM easily.
>
> This is the kind of personal stewardship we have with GPS derived data, and that should be fostered for
> automated import as well.
>
> I've added http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/WikiProject_United_States#Users_interested_in_the_United_States
> to kick off some community around this.

Signed up! Thanks! I'm new to OSM and only just starting to edit around
Austin, TX. I've been trying to learn how to do things. It *seems* to me
that the only editing option I have is JOSM since none of the slippy map
layers seem to contain anything in my region even though there have been
edits.

This is something I don't understand. Are there additional actions that
have to be taken in order to get edits via JOSM to show up on the slippy
map? Are these actions something that the contributors do or are
these actions by the site admins? Must they be requested or
are they automated? Thanks for insights.

===
Without really knowing the extent of what is currently accepted, I would
comment in regards to the tertiary road discussion that I think OSM
should accept number of lanes and lane width as well as road surface
material. Lane width is more important than the width of the road in my
estimation, but the width of the road can be derived from the number of
lanes and the lane width. It is the lane width that would best predict
safe travel speeds.

Is it important to know how the roads are striped? Can one keep abreast
of local lane striping crews and their contracts? Would one endeavour to
comment on the condition of the stripes without knowing when they might
be repainted? Hmmm, much more difficult I think. Knowing whether one has
eight, ten, or twelve feet of lane is more useful in my mind.

There should also be designations for whether hazardous cargo is allowed
on the road, hurricane evacuation routes, and all kinds of other things
like seasonal roads (the Dalton Hwy in Alaska comes to mind--one needs a
permit from the Governor's office to drive the road in winter). If
private roads are mapped, then they need to be designated as such. I've
seen roads that are originally cut by governments for utility lines, but
are maintained by the local land owner and have padlocks on access
gates. I'm thinking here of very large cattle ranches. USGS maps will
show these as "county" roads, but there is no indication that they are
accessible only to people who know the padlock combination. Certainly
this is an important attribute to record/contribute. I'm thinking that
access: restricted and another attribute indicating the type of
restriction (seasonal, padlock) and possibly contact URLs (for the
Governor's office) or phone numbers (for the ranch manager), could be
included. Yes, I really think that contact info needs to be present.

Best,
Robert

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Re: World wide coverage?

ANDY ROBINSON-2
Robert,

Welcome to OSM. Will try to respond to a few of your questions in your text
below.

Cheers

Andy Robinson
[hidden email]

>-----Original Message-----
>From: [hidden email] [mailto:talk-
>[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Robert T Wyatt
>Sent: 20 December 2006 4:09 PM
>To: Talk Openstreetmap
>Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] World wide coverage?
>
>Mikel Maron wrote:
>> If someone comes in and is interested in doing OSM for a particular US
>area, there should be a set of tools
>> to import just the counties they want. For instance, I wanted a few SFBay
>counties imported for Where 2.0
>> this year. Once imported, that data is going to be closely inspected. If
>there's a problem with the import
>> script, that will quickly be iterated out, and a counties worth of bad
>data can be removed vis JOSM easily.
>>
>> This is the kind of personal stewardship we have with GPS derived data,
>and that should be fostered for
>> automated import as well.
>>
>> I've added
>http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/WikiProject_United_States#Users_int
>erested_in_the_United_States
>> to kick off some community around this.
>
>Signed up! Thanks! I'm new to OSM and only just starting to edit around
>Austin, TX. I've been trying to learn how to do things. It *seems* to me
>that the only editing option I have is JOSM since none of the slippy map
>layers seem to contain anything in my region even though there have been
>edits.
>
>This is something I don't understand. Are there additional actions that
>have to be taken in order to get edits via JOSM to show up on the slippy
>map? Are these actions something that the contributors do or are
>these actions by the site admins? Must they be requested or
>are they automated? Thanks for insights.
>

The current slippy map does not use live data, to provide a quick response
time its set up to use a dump of the data called "planet". The refresh rate
of the tiles in the slippy map depends therefore on which planet version is
being used and which renderer is utilised. Expect this to improve with time
to the point that the slippy should generally be a week maximum behind the
current edit condition. If you use the edit function via the web interface
then this does use the current real time data. If you wish to see the fruits
of your recent editing then the best method is probably to run Osmarender
for the area of interest.


>===
>Without really knowing the extent of what is currently accepted, I would
>comment in regards to the tertiary road discussion that I think OSM
>should accept number of lanes and lane width as well as road surface
>material. Lane width is more important than the width of the road in my
>estimation, but the width of the road can be derived from the number of
>lanes and the lane width. It is the lane width that would best predict
>safe travel speeds.
>
>Is it important to know how the roads are striped? Can one keep abreast
>of local lane striping crews and their contracts? Would one endeavour to
>comment on the condition of the stripes without knowing when they might
>be repainted? Hmmm, much more difficult I think. Knowing whether one has
>eight, ten, or twelve feet of lane is more useful in my mind.
>
>There should also be designations for whether hazardous cargo is allowed
>on the road, hurricane evacuation routes, and all kinds of other things
>like seasonal roads (the Dalton Hwy in Alaska comes to mind--one needs a
>permit from the Governor's office to drive the road in winter). If
>private roads are mapped, then they need to be designated as such. I've
>seen roads that are originally cut by governments for utility lines, but
>are maintained by the local land owner and have padlocks on access
>gates. I'm thinking here of very large cattle ranches. USGS maps will
>show these as "county" roads, but there is no indication that they are
>accessible only to people who know the padlock combination. Certainly
>this is an important attribute to record/contribute. I'm thinking that
>access: restricted and another attribute indicating the type of
>restriction (seasonal, padlock) and possibly contact URLs (for the
>Governor's office) or phone numbers (for the ranch manager), could be
>included. Yes, I really think that contact info needs to be present.

Some of these ideas simply haven't been thought of to date. i.e. nobody has
needed to tag their highways in this way. We are very aware that highways
across the world vary in classification and physical properties. The current
"Map Features" tagging system does not properly separate out these two
aspects. I have it on my to-do list to rework a proper separation between
the physical and the administrative. For the physical it should be possible
to make certain definitions that for instance describe the typical
configuration of a freeway lane width and overall construction for the USA
and do the same for other locations around the world. With this information
located and referenced centrally at OSM it should make the tagging of
highway types in each country more logical. The motorway/trunk/primary etc
classification methods might also be split by location.

With respect to some of the other useful tags you suggested, you are welcome
to use and suggest on the wiki additional tagging which fits your needs. If
you do this in keeping with the Map Features format then you will be on the
right track.


>
>Best,
>Robert
>
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Re: World wide coverage?

Interlug
In reply to this post by Robert T Wyatt
Oops.  Meant to send this to the list, not just the original poster.
Trying again.

> ===
> Without really knowing the extent of what is currently accepted, I would
> comment in regards to the tertiary road discussion that I think OSM
> should accept number of lanes and lane width as well as road surface
> material. Lane width is more important than the width of the road in my
> estimation, but the width of the road can be derived from the number of
> lanes and the lane width. It is the lane width that would best predict
> safe travel speeds.

You may use k="lanes", v="3" in your highway ways to indicate number
of diving lanes in aech direction.

You may use k="surface", v="gravel" in your highway ways to indicate
surface composition.

Lots of other features here
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Map_features

> There should also be designations for whether hazardous cargo is allowed
> on the road,

Interesting.  Perhaps use the note field until you can add this to
proposed features.

> hurricane evacuation routes,

Like contraflow?  Interesting again, but emergency crews will be
over-riding many normal navigation cues anyway.  Best to watch the
folks with the flashlights and vests, rather than the gps system.
Useful as a note.

> and all kinds of other things
> like seasonal roads (the Dalton Hwy in Alaska comes to mind--one needs a
> permit from the Governor's office to drive the road in winter).

Other "timely" routes are included in OSM.  Best not try to use a
ferry route without the ferry.  A seasonal ice-road would qualify as
time-dependent.  Sounds like the Dalton Highway is a special case of a
Toll Road.

> If
> private roads are mapped, then they need to be designated as such. I've
> seen roads that are originally cut by governments for utility lines, but
> are maintained by the local land owner and have padlocks on access
> gates. I'm thinking here of very large cattle ranches.

There is a "gate" tag.  Perhaps add a note and mention that it is
normally locked.  Perhaps these private roads should also render
differently?  (Or not at all?)  Good topic for a wiki-discussion.

And welcome, Robert.

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Re: World wide coverage?

Ralf Zimmermann
In reply to this post by Robert T Wyatt
Robert T Wyatt wrote:
> It *seems* to me
> that the only editing option I have is JOSM since none of the slippy map
> layers seem to contain anything in my region even though there have been
> edits.

This page tries to give an overview of the available editors:
   http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Editing
I personally use JOSM and I like it very much.

> This is something I don't understand. Are there additional actions that
> have to be taken in order to get edits via JOSM to show up on the slippy
> map? Are these actions something that the contributors do or are
> these actions by the site admins? Must they be requested or
> are they automated? Thanks for insights.

Currently, the slippy maps are not using the online database but the
weekly planet data dump. This leads to some delay. Also, some of the
slippy maps are currently updated by hand rather than automatically.

There is lot's of development in the area of the slippy maps currently.
If you wait a while, it will be sorted out.

In short: You don't have to do anything, the data you edited in JOSM
will find its way to the maps!

Have fun with OSM!

Ralf
Munich, Germany


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Re: World wide coverage?

Dirk-Lüder Kreie
In reply to this post by Robert T Wyatt
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Robert T Wyatt schrieb:

[edits don't show up on slippy map]

> This is something I don't understand. Are there additional actions that
> have to be taken in order to get edits via JOSM to show up on the slippy
> map? Are these actions something that the contributors do or are
> these actions by the site admins? Must they be requested or
> are they automated? Thanks for insights.

Additionally to the Mapnik tiles (which are updated once a week) there
are the osmarender tiles, which, currently, are not updated for the
slippy map, but that will change soon, when the transfer between the
(current, but mostly outdated) bandnet server and the new server (dev)
has taken place.

so in the meantime use this: http://dev.openstreetmap.org/~ojw/Browse/
to see current tiles (current as rendered by the tiles@home clients)
unfortunately that is not a slippy map and doesn't work with lat/lon
either, but with the tilenames themselves, see [[Slippy_map_tilenames]]
 on the wiki for the conversion.

HTH

Dirk-Lüder "Deelkar" Kreie
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Re: newbie stuff [was: World wide coverage?]

Robert T Wyatt
Thanks for the warm welcome! I'm learning. Since there have been several
responses, I've tried to put them together here, in no particular order,
but I know that readability will suffer. Sorry about that, nothing ground
shaking here if you want to move on to the next message. :-)

====
Ralf Zimmermann wrote:
> This page tries to give an overview of the available editors:
>    http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Editing
> I personally use JOSM and I like it very much.

I'm getting the hang of JOSM too. It works. It seems to me that it won't
upload my GPX tracks though, but I can do that via the Web interface.

====


Andy Robinson wrote:
> Welcome to OSM. Will try to respond to a few of your questions in your text
> below.
> Cheers
> Andy Robinson
> [hidden email]

> The current slippy map does not use live data, to provide a quick
> response time its set up to use a dump of the data called "planet". The
> refresh rate of the tiles in the slippy map depends therefore on which
> planet version is being used and which renderer is utilised. Expect this
> to improve with time to the point that the slippy should generally be a
> week maximum behind the current edit condition. If you use the edit
> function via the web interface then this does use the current real time
> data. If you wish to see the fruits of your recent editing then the best
> method is probably to run Osmarender for the area of interest.

I haven't used Osmarender yet. I'll check that out. Now that I'm beginning
to understand how the slippy map is built, things are starting to fall into
place for me.

> Some of these ideas simply haven't been thought of to date. i.e. nobody
> has needed to tag their highways in this way. We are very aware that
> highways across the world vary in classification and physical
> properties. The current "Map Features" tagging system does not properly
> separate out these two aspects. I have it on my to-do list to rework a
> proper separation between the physical and the administrative.

Yes, I think this is important! In the US there can be many different
administrative bodies involved with a single road project. Which agencies
are involved can make a difference to the end user. One might ask,"What are
you talking about?" Well, one long-distance traveler might prefer to avoid
county roads, while the next might be attracted to them, for instance. Same
with interregional highways (which is what our interstates ought to be
called in the wiki--I'll try to find a definitive source before I start to
edit though); someone on a moped will want to avoid 80mph truck traffic,
but the truckers will prefer it. Yes, some of this information can be
inferred from other sources, but the Natchez Trace Parkway in Mississippi
might be a good example for us. It could be discovered as a 50mph highway
that traverses the state, but perhaps it could be better described as a
National Park roadway which prohibits truck traffic and is surrounded by
ancient Indian burial mounds and the old Pony Express route. Okay, while
the description is true maybe I'm still stretching it as far as OSM goes,
but I think the idea is valid even if I don't have the perfect example at hand.

> For the
> physical it should be possible to make certain definitions that for
> instance describe the typical configuration of a freeway lane width and
> overall construction for the USA and do the same for other locations
> around the world. With this information located and referenced centrally
> at OSM it should make the tagging of highway types in each country more
> logical. The motorway/trunk/primary etc classification methods might
> also be split by location.

Sounds like the best approach.

====
Interlug wrote:
> You may use k="lanes", v="3" in your highway ways to indicate number
> of diving lanes in each direction.
>
> You may use k="surface", v="gravel" in your highway ways to indicate
> surface composition.

Ahh, I missed those the first time I looked. So we give road width and
using number of lanes can derive lane width. Okay.

>> There should also be designations for whether hazardous cargo is allowed
>> on the road,
> Interesting.  Perhaps use the note field until you can add this to
> proposed features.

m'kay. That's reasonable. :-) So the key="notes", value="Hazardous Cargo"
or "HC" I guess the full-text is preferred. There is a US symbol (if not
international) for this, btw.

>> hurricane evacuation routes,
> Like contraflow?  Interesting again, but emergency crews will be
> over-riding many normal navigation cues anyway.  Best to watch the
> folks with the flashlights and vests, rather than the gps system.
> Useful as a note.

I wasn't thinking contraflow, but I like the way you think. I believe there
are uses for this data even when there is not a pending evacuation. It's
also possible that the data might be importable from some government
source. There are probably (exercise left for later) multiple useful
attributes of ways designated as evacuation routes. Off the top of my head,
it is pretty much guaranteed not to be a dead end--no pun intended--so even
with incomplete map data, there is useful information in this attribute.

>> like seasonal roads (the Dalton Hwy in Alaska comes to mind--one needs a
>> permit from the Governor's office to drive the road in winter).
> Other "timely" routes are included in OSM.  Best not try to use a
> ferry route without the ferry.  A seasonal ice-road would qualify as
> time-dependent.  Sounds like the Dalton Highway is a special case of a
> Toll Road.

Good points and suggestions. I'll put these ideas to use.

>> If
>> private roads are mapped, then they need to be designated as such. I've
>> seen roads that are originally cut by governments for utility lines, but
>> are maintained by the local land owner and have padlocks on access
>> gates. I'm thinking here of very large cattle ranches.
>
> There is a "gate" tag.  Perhaps add a note and mention that it is
> normally locked.  Perhaps these private roads should also render
> differently?  (Or not at all?)  Good topic for a wiki-discussion.
>
> And welcome, Robert.

I guess, like lane numbers, I missed the description of the "notes" field
on the Map Features page; I'll try to use it sparingly of course and
encourage discussion on issues that I find a need to use the notes field for.

====
Dirk-Lüder Kreie wrote:
> so in the meantime use this: http://dev.openstreetmap.org/~ojw/Browse/
> to see current tiles (current as rendered by the tiles@home clients)
> unfortunately that is not a slippy map and doesn't work with lat/lon
> either, but with the tilenames themselves, see [[Slippy_map_tilenames]]
>  on the wiki for the conversion.

Didn't know about that one previously. Still don't quite understand it, but
it looks interesting and I'll give it a go over the holidays.

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