Worried about task 1018

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Worried about task 1018

Extra Paul
Dear openstreetmappers :)

I'm quite worried about the quality of maps for task 1018.
Many of mappers, obviously, did not check the instructions or even the tutorials. People want to help, and that's awesome, but maybe validation should be done my more experienced and meticulous mappers.
I've seen mappers validating more that 10 areas in less than an hour, and those areas still contain many errors : clusters of buildings mapped as one, landuse=residential area used for clusters of nothing more than 1 or 2 buildings, many streams seen as footpath, many paths in the middle of nowhere... 
Maybe instructions should contain some images to show clearly what is expected, and explain that the purpose of this map is to count each individual buildings and have roads and paths connected to them so buildings can be reached by humanitarian teams.
Currently, most of my time on 1018 is to check validated areas because half of those areas are not correctly mapped.

Paul

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Re: Worried about task 1018

severin
Hi all,

I understand your worry Paul, and have the same experience of unvalidating tasks. I put clear comments for the people to know why. There is no offense I hope, everyone has been a beginner once and learning and improving is part of the motivation with OSM, IMHO.
I just suggested this change in the asking Manager that should prevent in the future the fact that tiles are validated by beginners:

https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/issues/598, titled: Validate button only for mappers who clicked previously on Edit with JOSM. 

I also hope iD will have in the future not only a building mapping tool, but also (as mappers may not use the building tool) an automatic proposition to square or round the shape that has just been traced as soon as a building tag is chosen (GitHub issue: https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2624).


The tools and the documentation apart, we also need to organize and exchange between us the people: who is interested in validation checking meaning also providing feedback or monitoring beginners? Basically you need to be a proficient user of JOSM and having a lot of edits (not less than with 4-5 zeros, I would say)

It takes a bit of time but it is valuable and a nice way to interact. My hello to Suzan Reed who asked me  directly for monitoring her tasks.

We have a list (thanks to Pascal Neis!) of the beginners from the start of the Activation, some are drive-bys (typically only 1 day of mapping, a few edits) and others more to super committed mappers. I have started a spreadsheet for those who would like to monitor these committed mappers.


Sincerely,


Severin


On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 10:10 AM, Extra Paul <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear openstreetmappers :)

I'm quite worried about the quality of maps for task 1018.
Many of mappers, obviously, did not check the instructions or even the tutorials. People want to help, and that's awesome, but maybe validation should be done my more experienced and meticulous mappers.
I've seen mappers validating more that 10 areas in less than an hour, and those areas still contain many errors : clusters of buildings mapped as one, landuse=residential area used for clusters of nothing more than 1 or 2 buildings, many streams seen as footpath, many paths in the middle of nowhere... 
Maybe instructions should contain some images to show clearly what is expected, and explain that the purpose of this map is to count each individual buildings and have roads and paths connected to them so buildings can be reached by humanitarian teams.
Currently, most of my time on 1018 is to check validated areas because half of those areas are not correctly mapped.

Paul

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[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot



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Re: Worried about task 1018

pierzen
We have to adapt to an awesome contribution with this Nepal emergency. We need more people. At the same time, we need to adapt in various ways to crowdsourcing as we see various problems arizing.

I also opened a ticket. This would be for the validators to prioritize validating first for the less experienced. A checkbox could let show only tiles selected by less experienced contributors.
regard
 
Pierre


De : Severin Menard <[hidden email]>
À : Extra Paul <[hidden email]>
Cc : "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Envoyé le : Samedi 9 mai 2015 7h49
Objet : Re: [HOT] Worried about task 1018

Hi all,

I understand your worry Paul, and have the same experience of unvalidating tasks. I put clear comments for the people to know why. There is no offense I hope, everyone has been a beginner once and learning and improving is part of the motivation with OSM, IMHO.
I just suggested this change in the asking Manager that should prevent in the future the fact that tiles are validated by beginners:
https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/issues/598, titled: Validate button only for mappers who clicked previously on Edit with JOSM. 
I also hope iD will have in the future not only a building mapping tool, but also (as mappers may not use the building tool) an automatic proposition to square or round the shape that has just been traced as soon as a building tag is chosen (GitHub issue: https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2624).

The tools and the documentation apart, we also need to organize and exchange between us the people: who is interested in validation checking meaning also providing feedback or monitoring beginners? Basically you need to be a proficient user of JOSM and having a lot of edits (not less than with 4-5 zeros, I would say)
It takes a bit of time but it is valuable and a nice way to interact. My hello to Suzan Reed who asked me  directly for monitoring her tasks.
We have a list (thanks to Pascal Neis!) of the beginners from the start of the Activation, some are drive-bys (typically only 1 day of mapping, a few edits) and others more to super committed mappers. I have started a spreadsheet for those who would like to monitor these committed mappers.

Sincerely,

Severin

On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 10:10 AM, Extra Paul <[hidden email]> wrote:


Dear openstreetmappers :)

I'm quite worried about the quality of maps for task 1018.
Many of mappers, obviously, did not check the instructions or even the tutorials. People want to help, and that's awesome, but maybe validation should be done my more experienced and meticulous mappers.
I've seen mappers validating more that 10 areas in less than an hour, and those areas still contain many errors : clusters of buildings mapped as one, landuse=residential area used for clusters of nothing more than 1 or 2 buildings, many streams seen as footpath, many paths in the middle of nowhere... 
Maybe instructions should contain some images to show clearly what is expected, and explain that the purpose of this map is to count each individual buildings and have roads and paths connected to them so buildings can be reached by humanitarian teams.
Currently, most of my time on 1018 is to check validated areas because half of those areas are not correctly mapped.

Paul


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Re: Worried about task 1018

john whelan-2
I think I'm moderately experienced in mapping.  In West Africa I'm very comfortable validating, in Nepal I'm happy I know what a building looks like but paths, streams etc I'm not so comfortable with, there is a lot of distracting detail on the images.  Do I validate and clean up the building and tag side?  Or just add a few more buildings?

Thoughts?

Thanks John

On 9 May 2015 at 08:27, Pierre Béland <[hidden email]> wrote:
We have to adapt to an awesome contribution with this Nepal emergency. We need more people. At the same time, we need to adapt in various ways to crowdsourcing as we see various problems arizing.

I also opened a ticket. This would be for the validators to prioritize validating first for the less experienced. A checkbox could let show only tiles selected by less experienced contributors.
regard
 
Pierre


De : Severin Menard <[hidden email]>
À : Extra Paul <[hidden email]>
Cc : "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Envoyé le : Samedi 9 mai 2015 7h49
Objet : Re: [HOT] Worried about task 1018

Hi all,

I understand your worry Paul, and have the same experience of unvalidating tasks. I put clear comments for the people to know why. There is no offense I hope, everyone has been a beginner once and learning and improving is part of the motivation with OSM, IMHO.
I just suggested this change in the asking Manager that should prevent in the future the fact that tiles are validated by beginners:
https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/issues/598, titled: Validate button only for mappers who clicked previously on Edit with JOSM. 
I also hope iD will have in the future not only a building mapping tool, but also (as mappers may not use the building tool) an automatic proposition to square or round the shape that has just been traced as soon as a building tag is chosen (GitHub issue: https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2624).

The tools and the documentation apart, we also need to organize and exchange between us the people: who is interested in validation checking meaning also providing feedback or monitoring beginners? Basically you need to be a proficient user of JOSM and having a lot of edits (not less than with 4-5 zeros, I would say)
It takes a bit of time but it is valuable and a nice way to interact. My hello to Suzan Reed who asked me  directly for monitoring her tasks.
We have a list (thanks to Pascal Neis!) of the beginners from the start of the Activation, some are drive-bys (typically only 1 day of mapping, a few edits) and others more to super committed mappers. I have started a spreadsheet for those who would like to monitor these committed mappers.

Sincerely,

Severin

On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 10:10 AM, Extra Paul <[hidden email]> wrote:


Dear openstreetmappers :)

I'm quite worried about the quality of maps for task 1018.
Many of mappers, obviously, did not check the instructions or even the tutorials. People want to help, and that's awesome, but maybe validation should be done my more experienced and meticulous mappers.
I've seen mappers validating more that 10 areas in less than an hour, and those areas still contain many errors : clusters of buildings mapped as one, landuse=residential area used for clusters of nothing more than 1 or 2 buildings, many streams seen as footpath, many paths in the middle of nowhere... 
Maybe instructions should contain some images to show clearly what is expected, and explain that the purpose of this map is to count each individual buildings and have roads and paths connected to them so buildings can be reached by humanitarian teams.
Currently, most of my time on 1018 is to check validated areas because half of those areas are not correctly mapped.

Paul


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[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot



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Re: Worried about task 1018

Barbara Figge
Hi to everyone,
I am one of the beginners of the last weeks, since last friday I mapped - mostly buildings (and mostly unsquared, I am one of them, too), tried some paths. I try to read the mailing list notes in between, I started with the mapgive things before first mapping, I read the instructions before starting, I did not validate and though these mistakes happened. But I am learning a lot.
Currently I am a little irritated about all the mistakes one can make and so I made up my mind not to stop mapping, but to stay on the safe side of the street: mapping buildings, and after I noticed the importance of buildings being squared, squaring my and the buildings of others.
Now there are some questions left: in the tile I worked in there are some areas without description (and no bulding or something else to see)- shall I delete them or do they have a special reason I overread in the mailing list conversation?
There are a lot of mapped buildings, where the symbol is some meters away from the building. Shall I correct or is it okay?
And: is there a possibility to go back to a tile I worked on by searching the number or must I search inside the map?
Best wishes and: as far as I can see from my small desk, a lot of people are doing great work!
Barbara
barbaraulrike in osm
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 09. Mai 2015 um 15:11 Uhr
Von: "john whelan" <[hidden email]>
An: "Pierre Béland" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Betreff: Re: [HOT] Worried about task 1018
I think I'm moderately experienced in mapping.  In West Africa I'm very comfortable validating, in Nepal I'm happy I know what a building looks like but paths, streams etc I'm not so comfortable with, there is a lot of distracting detail on the images.  Do I validate and clean up the building and tag side?  Or just add a few more buildings?
 
Thoughts?
 
Thanks John
 
On 9 May 2015 at 08:27, Pierre Béland <pierzenh@...> wrote:
We have to adapt to an awesome contribution with this Nepal emergency. We need more people. At the same time, we need to adapt in various ways to crowdsourcing as we see various problems arizing.
 
I also opened a ticket. This would be for the validators to prioritize validating first for the less experienced. A checkbox could let show only tiles selected by less experienced contributors.
 
regard
 
Pierre
 

De : Severin Menard <severin.menard@...>
À : Extra Paul <paulokoko@...>
Cc : "hot@..." <hot@...>
Envoyé le : Samedi 9 mai 2015 7h49
Objet : Re: [HOT] Worried about task 1018
 
Hi all,
 
I understand your worry Paul, and have the same experience of unvalidating tasks. I put clear comments for the people to know why. There is no offense I hope, everyone has been a beginner once and learning and improving is part of the motivation with OSM, IMHO.
I just suggested this change in the asking Manager that should prevent in the future the fact that tiles are validated by beginners:
https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/issues/598, titled: Validate button only for mappers who clicked previously on Edit with JOSM. 
I also hope iD will have in the future not only a building mapping tool, but also (as mappers may not use the building tool) an automatic proposition to square or round the shape that has just been traced as soon as a building tag is chosen (GitHub issue: https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2624).
 
The tools and the documentation apart, we also need to organize and exchange between us the people: who is interested in validation checking meaning also providing feedback or monitoring beginners? Basically you need to be a proficient user of JOSM and having a lot of edits (not less than with 4-5 zeros, I would say)
It takes a bit of time but it is valuable and a nice way to interact. My hello to Suzan Reed who asked me  directly for monitoring her tasks.
We have a list (thanks to Pascal Neis!) of the beginners from the start of the Activation, some are drive-bys (typically only 1 day of mapping, a few edits) and others more to super committed mappers. I have started a spreadsheet for those who would like to monitor these committed mappers.
 
Sincerely,
 
Severin
 
On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 10:10 AM, Extra Paul <paulokoko@...> wrote:

 
Dear openstreetmappers :)
 
I'm quite worried about the quality of maps for task 1018.
Many of mappers, obviously, did not check the instructions or even the tutorials. People want to help, and that's awesome, but maybe validation should be done my more experienced and meticulous mappers.
I've seen mappers validating more that 10 areas in less than an hour, and those areas still contain many errors : clusters of buildings mapped as one, landuse=residential area used for clusters of nothing more than 1 or 2 buildings, many streams seen as footpath, many paths in the middle of nowhere... 
Maybe instructions should contain some images to show clearly what is expected, and explain that the purpose of this map is to count each individual buildings and have roads and paths connected to them so buildings can be reached by humanitarian teams.
Currently, most of my time on 1018 is to check validated areas because half of those areas are not correctly mapped.
 
Paul

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https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
 
_______________________________________________ HOT mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

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Re: Worried about task 1018

Tom McDonald
In reply to this post by severin
Though I am active, I do NOT show up on Pascal's new contributor's list (user tmcd123, joined April 30). There must others missing as well?

Paul's suggestion "Maybe instructions should contain some images to show clearly what is expected," is excellent. I still find it difficult to decide what to mark as landuse=residential in rural Nepal. An example in the documentation would be great.

Could someone please point me to a validated square that I could look at with landuse=residential used appropriately in a rural area.

Tom
I may be new here, but I am definitely getting the hang of it. I use JOSM. 


On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 4:49 AM, Severin Menard <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi all,

I understand your worry Paul, and have the same experience of unvalidating tasks. I put clear comments for the people to know why. There is no offense I hope, everyone has been a beginner once and learning and improving is part of the motivation with OSM, IMHO.
I just suggested this change in the asking Manager that should prevent in the future the fact that tiles are validated by beginners:

https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/issues/598, titled: Validate button only for mappers who clicked previously on Edit with JOSM. 

I also hope iD will have in the future not only a building mapping tool, but also (as mappers may not use the building tool) an automatic proposition to square or round the shape that has just been traced as soon as a building tag is chosen (GitHub issue: https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2624).


The tools and the documentation apart, we also need to organize and exchange between us the people: who is interested in validation checking meaning also providing feedback or monitoring beginners? Basically you need to be a proficient user of JOSM and having a lot of edits (not less than with 4-5 zeros, I would say)

It takes a bit of time but it is valuable and a nice way to interact. My hello to Suzan Reed who asked me  directly for monitoring her tasks.

We have a list (thanks to Pascal Neis!) of the beginners from the start of the Activation, some are drive-bys (typically only 1 day of mapping, a few edits) and others more to super committed mappers. I have started a spreadsheet for those who would like to monitor these committed mappers.


Sincerely,


Severin


On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 10:10 AM, Extra Paul <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear openstreetmappers :)

I'm quite worried about the quality of maps for task 1018.
Many of mappers, obviously, did not check the instructions or even the tutorials. People want to help, and that's awesome, but maybe validation should be done my more experienced and meticulous mappers.
I've seen mappers validating more that 10 areas in less than an hour, and those areas still contain many errors : clusters of buildings mapped as one, landuse=residential area used for clusters of nothing more than 1 or 2 buildings, many streams seen as footpath, many paths in the middle of nowhere... 
Maybe instructions should contain some images to show clearly what is expected, and explain that the purpose of this map is to count each individual buildings and have roads and paths connected to them so buildings can be reached by humanitarian teams.
Currently, most of my time on 1018 is to check validated areas because half of those areas are not correctly mapped.

Paul

_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot



_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot



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Re: Worried about task 1018

pierzen
In reply to this post by Barbara Figge
Hi Barbara

I appreciate your testimony about beginners experience. Your various testtimony are important for us to adapt and find the best strategy to adapt our workflow including training material, mapathons, Tasks instructions, Validations.

Areas with no Description : If this correspond to a polygon where no tags were added, our Global Validation process can take care with Query to the database and spot all of these and correct.

Buildings not aligned : Bing imagery is our basis to align objects. When we work with post-disaster imagery, it might be slighlty moved away from Bing. Both in ID and JOSM it is possible to realign the imagery to correspond to what was previously mapped. The importance is to keep coherence among all objects mapped. This is often a mistake of new contributors to each realign buildings using various images.

To go back to a tile you worked on, You go back to the Task Manager job you workded on.  Go to the Stats panel of the TM job and pass the mouse over your OSM-ID. This will show the tile you worked on. If nobody works presently on the tile, you can click to review the tile.
To show your TM history, click on your OSM-ID in this Stats panel.

Yes, a lot of people, of volunteer people from around the world are doing great work supporting Kathmandu Living Labs and the Nepal population, including you! Thanks a lot!

Sometimes frustrating this crowdsourcing, but we surely all gain something working together, gathering from around the world and exploring ways to provide better answers while participating to such disaster managements. As many have said in the medias, this is a great way to make the difference other then providing money to caritative organizatons. And be assured that the organizations appreciate the efforts made by this virtual volunteered community.

cheers
 
 
Pierre


De : Barbara Figge <[hidden email]>
À : john whelan <[hidden email]>
Cc : Pierre Béland <[hidden email]>; "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Envoyé le : Samedi 9 mai 2015 11h12
Objet : Aw: Re: [HOT] Worried about task 1018

Hi to everyone,
I am one of the beginners of the last weeks, since last friday I mapped - mostly buildings (and mostly unsquared, I am one of them, too), tried some paths. I try to read the mailing list notes in between, I started with the mapgive things before first mapping, I read the instructions before starting, I did not validate and though these mistakes happened. But I am learning a lot.
Currently I am a little irritated about all the mistakes one can make and so I made up my mind not to stop mapping, but to stay on the safe side of the street: mapping buildings, and after I noticed the importance of buildings being squared, squaring my and the buildings of others.
Now there are some questions left: in the tile I worked in there are some areas without description (and no bulding or something else to see)- shall I delete them or do they have a special reason I overread in the mailing list conversation?
There are a lot of mapped buildings, where the symbol is some meters away from the building. Shall I correct or is it okay?
And: is there a possibility to go back to a tile I worked on by searching the number or must I search inside the map?
Best wishes and: as far as I can see from my small desk, a lot of people are doing great work!
Barbara
barbaraulrike in osm
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 09. Mai 2015 um 15:11 Uhr
Von: "john whelan" <[hidden email]>
An: "Pierre Béland" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Betreff: Re: [HOT] Worried about task 1018
I think I'm moderately experienced in mapping.  In West Africa I'm very comfortable validating, in Nepal I'm happy I know what a building looks like but paths, streams etc I'm not so comfortable with, there is a lot of distracting detail on the images.  Do I validate and clean up the building and tag side?  Or just add a few more buildings?
 
Thoughts?
 
Thanks John
 
On 9 May 2015 at 08:27, Pierre Béland <pierzenh@...> wrote:
We have to adapt to an awesome contribution with this Nepal emergency. We need more people. At the same time, we need to adapt in various ways to crowdsourcing as we see various problems arizing.
 
I also opened a ticket. This would be for the validators to prioritize validating first for the less experienced. A checkbox could let show only tiles selected by less experienced contributors.
 
regard
 
Pierre
 

De : Severin Menard <severin.menard@...>
À : Extra Paul <paulokoko@...>
Cc : "hot@..." <hot@...>
Envoyé le : Samedi 9 mai 2015 7h49
Objet : Re: [HOT] Worried about task 1018
 
Hi all,
 
I understand your worry Paul, and have the same experience of unvalidating tasks. I put clear comments for the people to know why. There is no offense I hope, everyone has been a beginner once and learning and improving is part of the motivation with OSM, IMHO.
I just suggested this change in the asking Manager that should prevent in the future the fact that tiles are validated by beginners:
https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/issues/598, titled: Validate button only for mappers who clicked previously on Edit with JOSM. 
I also hope iD will have in the future not only a building mapping tool, but also (as mappers may not use the building tool) an automatic proposition to square or round the shape that has just been traced as soon as a building tag is chosen (GitHub issue: https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2624).
 
The tools and the documentation apart, we also need to organize and exchange between us the people: who is interested in validation checking meaning also providing feedback or monitoring beginners? Basically you need to be a proficient user of JOSM and having a lot of edits (not less than with 4-5 zeros, I would say)
It takes a bit of time but it is valuable and a nice way to interact. My hello to Suzan Reed who asked me  directly for monitoring her tasks.
We have a list (thanks to Pascal Neis!) of the beginners from the start of the Activation, some are drive-bys (typically only 1 day of mapping, a few edits) and others more to super committed mappers. I have started a spreadsheet for those who would like to monitor these committed mappers.
 
Sincerely,
 
Severin
 
On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 10:10 AM, Extra Paul <paulokoko@...> wrote:

 
Dear openstreetmappers :)
 
I'm quite worried about the quality of maps for task 1018.
Many of mappers, obviously, did not check the instructions or even the tutorials. People want to help, and that's awesome, but maybe validation should be done my more experienced and meticulous mappers.
I've seen mappers validating more that 10 areas in less than an hour, and those areas still contain many errors : clusters of buildings mapped as one, landuse=residential area used for clusters of nothing more than 1 or 2 buildings, many streams seen as footpath, many paths in the middle of nowhere... 
Maybe instructions should contain some images to show clearly what is expected, and explain that the purpose of this map is to count each individual buildings and have roads and paths connected to them so buildings can be reached by humanitarian teams.
Currently, most of my time on 1018 is to check validated areas because half of those areas are not correctly mapped.
 
Paul

_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
HOT@...
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot



 
_______________________________________________ HOT mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot



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Re: Worried about task 1018

john whelan-2
In reply to this post by Barbara Figge
Pierre says it best but my thoughts follow.

To me the unsquared buildings are not a major issue in Nepal.  Within a tile a JOSM user can select buildings, then select an unsquared one remember the user select buildings once more then square all the buildings for that user in one keystroke.

As a beginner I suggest you don't correct odd areas, let someone else do the dirty deed, it saves having upset users and sometimes its just a matter of someone forgetting to tag it and often an experienced mapper can glance at it and give it a tag.

Paths and tracks unless its very clear I stay away from these in Nepal and I'm fairly experienced.  There are a number of terraces, the land can be quite steep so even though two ends of a path may look close together reality is its a long drop between the two.

For the moment I'd just add buildings, if you can manage to use JOSM and the building_tool plugin, you'll need the remote control plugin as well you'll find it's very easy to use and produces squared buildings correctly tagged and we have a lot of buildings to add.

Cheerio John

On 9 May 2015 at 11:12, Barbara Figge <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi to everyone,
I am one of the beginners of the last weeks, since last friday I mapped - mostly buildings (and mostly unsquared, I am one of them, too), tried some paths. I try to read the mailing list notes in between, I started with the mapgive things before first mapping, I read the instructions before starting, I did not validate and though these mistakes happened. But I am learning a lot.
Currently I am a little irritated about all the mistakes one can make and so I made up my mind not to stop mapping, but to stay on the safe side of the street: mapping buildings, and after I noticed the importance of buildings being squared, squaring my and the buildings of others.
Now there are some questions left: in the tile I worked in there are some areas without description (and no bulding or something else to see)- shall I delete them or do they have a special reason I overread in the mailing list conversation?
There are a lot of mapped buildings, where the symbol is some meters away from the building. Shall I correct or is it okay?
And: is there a possibility to go back to a tile I worked on by searching the number or must I search inside the map?
Best wishes and: as far as I can see from my small desk, a lot of people are doing great work!
Barbara
barbaraulrike in osm
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 09. Mai 2015 um 15:11 Uhr
Von: "john whelan" <[hidden email]>
An: "Pierre Béland" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Betreff: Re: [HOT] Worried about task 1018
I think I'm moderately experienced in mapping.  In West Africa I'm very comfortable validating, in Nepal I'm happy I know what a building looks like but paths, streams etc I'm not so comfortable with, there is a lot of distracting detail on the images.  Do I validate and clean up the building and tag side?  Or just add a few more buildings?
 
Thoughts?
 
Thanks John
 
On 9 May 2015 at 08:27, Pierre Béland <pierzenh@...> wrote:
We have to adapt to an awesome contribution with this Nepal emergency. We need more people. At the same time, we need to adapt in various ways to crowdsourcing as we see various problems arizing.
 
I also opened a ticket. This would be for the validators to prioritize validating first for the less experienced. A checkbox could let show only tiles selected by less experienced contributors.
 
regard
 
Pierre
 

De : Severin Menard <severin.menard@...>
À : Extra Paul <paulokoko@...>
Cc : "hot@..." <hot@...>
Envoyé le : Samedi 9 mai 2015 7h49
Objet : Re: [HOT] Worried about task 1018
 
Hi all,
 
I understand your worry Paul, and have the same experience of unvalidating tasks. I put clear comments for the people to know why. There is no offense I hope, everyone has been a beginner once and learning and improving is part of the motivation with OSM, IMHO.
I just suggested this change in the asking Manager that should prevent in the future the fact that tiles are validated by beginners:
https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/issues/598, titled: Validate button only for mappers who clicked previously on Edit with JOSM. 
I also hope iD will have in the future not only a building mapping tool, but also (as mappers may not use the building tool) an automatic proposition to square or round the shape that has just been traced as soon as a building tag is chosen (GitHub issue: https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2624).
 
The tools and the documentation apart, we also need to organize and exchange between us the people: who is interested in validation checking meaning also providing feedback or monitoring beginners? Basically you need to be a proficient user of JOSM and having a lot of edits (not less than with 4-5 zeros, I would say)
It takes a bit of time but it is valuable and a nice way to interact. My hello to Suzan Reed who asked me  directly for monitoring her tasks.
We have a list (thanks to Pascal Neis!) of the beginners from the start of the Activation, some are drive-bys (typically only 1 day of mapping, a few edits) and others more to super committed mappers. I have started a spreadsheet for those who would like to monitor these committed mappers.
 
Sincerely,
 
Severin
 
On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 10:10 AM, Extra Paul <paulokoko@...> wrote:

 
Dear openstreetmappers :)
 
I'm quite worried about the quality of maps for task 1018.
Many of mappers, obviously, did not check the instructions or even the tutorials. People want to help, and that's awesome, but maybe validation should be done my more experienced and meticulous mappers.
I've seen mappers validating more that 10 areas in less than an hour, and those areas still contain many errors : clusters of buildings mapped as one, landuse=residential area used for clusters of nothing more than 1 or 2 buildings, many streams seen as footpath, many paths in the middle of nowhere... 
Maybe instructions should contain some images to show clearly what is expected, and explain that the purpose of this map is to count each individual buildings and have roads and paths connected to them so buildings can be reached by humanitarian teams.
Currently, most of my time on 1018 is to check validated areas because half of those areas are not correctly mapped.
 
Paul

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Re: Worried about task 1018

Barbara Figge
Thanks for the words and information, so I will continue mapping buildings!
Greetings,
Barbara
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 09. Mai 2015 um 18:08 Uhr
Von: "john whelan" <[hidden email]>
An: "Barbara Figge" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Pierre Béland" <[hidden email]>, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Betreff: Re: Re: [HOT] Worried about task 1018
Pierre says it best but my thoughts follow.

To me the unsquared buildings are not a major issue in Nepal.  Within a tile a JOSM user can select buildings, then select an unsquared one remember the user select buildings once more then square all the buildings for that user in one keystroke.
 
As a beginner I suggest you don't correct odd areas, let someone else do the dirty deed, it saves having upset users and sometimes its just a matter of someone forgetting to tag it and often an experienced mapper can glance at it and give it a tag.
 
Paths and tracks unless its very clear I stay away from these in Nepal and I'm fairly experienced.  There are a number of terraces, the land can be quite steep so even though two ends of a path may look close together reality is its a long drop between the two.
 
For the moment I'd just add buildings, if you can manage to use JOSM and the building_tool plugin, you'll need the remote control plugin as well you'll find it's very easy to use and produces squared buildings correctly tagged and we have a lot of buildings to add.
 
Cheerio John
 
On 9 May 2015 at 11:12, Barbara Figge <bfigge@...> wrote:
Hi to everyone,
I am one of the beginners of the last weeks, since last friday I mapped - mostly buildings (and mostly unsquared, I am one of them, too), tried some paths. I try to read the mailing list notes in between, I started with the mapgive things before first mapping, I read the instructions before starting, I did not validate and though these mistakes happened. But I am learning a lot.
Currently I am a little irritated about all the mistakes one can make and so I made up my mind not to stop mapping, but to stay on the safe side of the street: mapping buildings, and after I noticed the importance of buildings being squared, squaring my and the buildings of others.
Now there are some questions left: in the tile I worked in there are some areas without description (and no bulding or something else to see)- shall I delete them or do they have a special reason I overread in the mailing list conversation?
There are a lot of mapped buildings, where the symbol is some meters away from the building. Shall I correct or is it okay?
And: is there a possibility to go back to a tile I worked on by searching the number or must I search inside the map?
Best wishes and: as far as I can see from my small desk, a lot of people are doing great work!
Barbara
barbaraulrike in osm
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 09. Mai 2015 um 15:11 Uhr
Von: "john whelan" <jwhelan0112@...>
An: "Pierre Béland" <pierzenh@...>
Cc: "hot@..." <hot@...>
Betreff: Re: [HOT] Worried about task 1018
I think I'm moderately experienced in mapping.  In West Africa I'm very comfortable validating, in Nepal I'm happy I know what a building looks like but paths, streams etc I'm not so comfortable with, there is a lot of distracting detail on the images.  Do I validate and clean up the building and tag side?  Or just add a few more buildings?
 
Thoughts?
 
Thanks John
 
On 9 May 2015 at 08:27, Pierre Béland <pierzenh@...> wrote:
We have to adapt to an awesome contribution with this Nepal emergency. We need more people. At the same time, we need to adapt in various ways to crowdsourcing as we see various problems arizing.
 
I also opened a ticket. This would be for the validators to prioritize validating first for the less experienced. A checkbox could let show only tiles selected by less experienced contributors.
 
regard
 
Pierre
 

De : Severin Menard <severin.menard@...>
À : Extra Paul <paulokoko@...>
Cc : "hot@..." <hot@...>
Envoyé le : Samedi 9 mai 2015 7h49
Objet : Re: [HOT] Worried about task 1018
 
Hi all,
 
I understand your worry Paul, and have the same experience of unvalidating tasks. I put clear comments for the people to know why. There is no offense I hope, everyone has been a beginner once and learning and improving is part of the motivation with OSM, IMHO.
I just suggested this change in the asking Manager that should prevent in the future the fact that tiles are validated by beginners:
https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/issues/598, titled: Validate button only for mappers who clicked previously on Edit with JOSM. 
I also hope iD will have in the future not only a building mapping tool, but also (as mappers may not use the building tool) an automatic proposition to square or round the shape that has just been traced as soon as a building tag is chosen (GitHub issue: https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2624).
 
The tools and the documentation apart, we also need to organize and exchange between us the people: who is interested in validation checking meaning also providing feedback or monitoring beginners? Basically you need to be a proficient user of JOSM and having a lot of edits (not less than with 4-5 zeros, I would say)
It takes a bit of time but it is valuable and a nice way to interact. My hello to Suzan Reed who asked me  directly for monitoring her tasks.
We have a list (thanks to Pascal Neis!) of the beginners from the start of the Activation, some are drive-bys (typically only 1 day of mapping, a few edits) and others more to super committed mappers. I have started a spreadsheet for those who would like to monitor these committed mappers.
 
Sincerely,
 
Severin
 
On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 10:10 AM, Extra Paul <paulokoko@...> wrote:

 
Dear openstreetmappers :)
 
I'm quite worried about the quality of maps for task 1018.
Many of mappers, obviously, did not check the instructions or even the tutorials. People want to help, and that's awesome, but maybe validation should be done my more experienced and meticulous mappers.
I've seen mappers validating more that 10 areas in less than an hour, and those areas still contain many errors : clusters of buildings mapped as one, landuse=residential area used for clusters of nothing more than 1 or 2 buildings, many streams seen as footpath, many paths in the middle of nowhere... 
Maybe instructions should contain some images to show clearly what is expected, and explain that the purpose of this map is to count each individual buildings and have roads and paths connected to them so buildings can be reached by humanitarian teams.
Currently, most of my time on 1018 is to check validated areas because half of those areas are not correctly mapped.
 
Paul

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HOT@...
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
 
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Re: Worried about task 1018

Joshua Kennedy
In reply to this post by Extra Paul

My impression was that if a couple buildings are out by themselves, it makes sense to tag them as a residential area so that these areas are not missed by the relief agencies.  More detailed explanations of how these maps are used would definitely be helpful, as would some guidance on distinguishing paths from dry stream beds.

Joshua



On May 9, 2015, at 6:10 AM, Extra Paul wrote:

Dear openstreetmappers :)

I'm quite worried about the quality of maps for task 1018.
Many of mappers, obviously, did not check the instructions or even the tutorials. People want to help, and that's awesome, but maybe validation should be done my more experienced and meticulous mappers.
I've seen mappers validating more that 10 areas in less than an hour, and those areas still contain many errors : clusters of buildings mapped as one, landuse=residential area used for clusters of nothing more than 1 or 2 buildings, many streams seen as footpath, many paths in the middle of nowhere... 
Maybe instructions should contain some images to show clearly what is expected, and explain that the purpose of this map is to count each individual buildings and have roads and paths connected to them so buildings can be reached by humanitarian teams.
Currently, most of my time on 1018 is to check validated areas because half of those areas are not correctly mapped.

Paul
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Re: Worried about task 1018

Julian Haag
In reply to this post by john whelan-2

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
 
Hi,
having very limited time at the moment, I wasn't able to map the last days.
I have been active in Nepal since the end of 2014 and I had the time to learn reading the Imagery regarding roads. Sometimes you have to map from both sides until it becomes clear, how this track is going.

But I have a quite different perspective than some experienced mappers. Its not a problem, if 2,3 or 10 buildings are marked as landuse=residential. Its not important if buildings are squared or not. Its not important, if these buildings are off by 50m or even a bit more. Its absolutely not important, if 3 single buildings are drawn as one big. And its not important, if this is a track, a road, unclassified or residental street.
No, I'm not a retard and not a troll. But I feel some slightly lost the focus on our goal!

Our goal is to help rescue and relief organisations! Search and Rescue from debris is important a few days from the incident. NOW our goal is to provide a map for logistics only! People struggle for food and clean water as well as shelter.
So it is important, that these organisations know that there is a building, there are spontaneous camps, there are major damages in this village. Is absolutely doesn't matter if the shapes are correct.

So, please, let us finish with our work before cleaning up. The cleanup from this desaster need several years - both, in nepal as well as in OSM.

Yes, I complained a lot about new contributors also, but despite of invalidating tiles that are not perfect, I corrected important things and validated them tough - not a perfect workflow, but it's an encouraging one!

So, stay healthy!

Julian

Am 09.05.2015 um 18:08 schrieb john whelan:
> Pierre says it best but my thoughts follow.
>
> To me the unsquared buildings are not a major issue in Nepal.  Within a tile a JOSM user can select buildings, then select an unsquared one remember the user select buildings once more then square all the buildings for that user in one keystroke.
>
> As a beginner I suggest you don't correct odd areas, let someone else do the dirty deed, it saves having upset users and sometimes its just a matter of someone forgetting to tag it and often an experienced mapper can glance at it and give it a tag.
>
> Paths and tracks unless its very clear I stay away from these in Nepal and I'm fairly experienced.  There are a number of terraces, the land can be quite steep so even though two ends of a path may look close together reality is its a long drop between the two.
>
> For the moment I'd just add buildings, if you can manage to use JOSM and the building_tool plugin, you'll need the remote control plugin as well you'll find it's very easy to use and produces squared buildings correctly tagged and we have a lot of buildings to add.
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On 9 May 2015 at 11:12, Barbara Figge <[hidden email] [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>     Hi to everyone,
>     I am one of the beginners of the last weeks, since last friday I mapped - mostly buildings (and mostly unsquared, I am one of them, too), tried some paths. I try to read the mailing list notes in between, I started with the mapgive things before first mapping, I read the instructions before starting, I did not validate and though these mistakes happened. But I am learning a lot.
>     Currently I am a little irritated about all the mistakes one can make and so I made up my mind not to stop mapping, but to stay on the safe side of the street: mapping buildings, and after I noticed the importance of buildings being squared, squaring my and the buildings of others.
>     Now there are some questions left: in the tile I worked in there are some areas without description (and no bulding or something else to see)- shall I delete them or do they have a special reason I overread in the mailing list conversation?
>     There are a lot of mapped buildings, where the symbol is some meters away from the building. Shall I correct or is it okay?
>     And: is there a possibility to go back to a tile I worked on by searching the number or must I search inside the map?
>     Best wishes and: as far as I can see from my small desk, a lot of people are doing great work!
>     Barbara
>     barbaraulrike in osm
>     
>     *Gesendet:* Samstag, 09. Mai 2015 um 15:11 Uhr
>     *Von:* "john whelan" <[hidden email] [hidden email]>
>     *An:* "Pierre Béland" <[hidden email] [hidden email]>
>     *Cc:* "[hidden email] [hidden email]" <[hidden email] [hidden email]>
>     *Betreff:* Re: [HOT] Worried about task 1018
>     I think I'm moderately experienced in mapping.  In West Africa I'm very comfortable validating, in Nepal I'm happy I know what a building looks like but paths, streams etc I'm not so comfortable with, there is a lot of distracting detail on the images.  Do I validate and clean up the building and tag side?  Or just add a few more buildings?
>     
>     Thoughts?
>     
>     Thanks John
>     
>     On 9 May 2015 at 08:27, Pierre Béland <[hidden email] <http://pierzenh@...>> wrote:
>
>         We have to adapt to an awesome contribution with this Nepal emergency. We need more people. At the same time, we need to adapt in various ways to crowdsourcing as we see various problems arizing.
>         
>         I also opened a ticket. This would be for the validators to prioritize validating first for the less experienced. A checkbox could let show only tiles selected by less experienced contributors.
>         https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/issues/599
>         
>         regard
>         
>         Pierre
>         
>         -------------------------
>         *De :* Severin Menard <[hidden email] <http://severin.menard@...>>
>         *À :* Extra Paul <[hidden email] <http://paulokoko@...>>
>         *Cc :* "[hidden email] <http://hot@...>" <[hidden email] <http://hot@...>>
>         *Envoyé le :* Samedi 9 mai 2015 7h49
>         *Objet :* Re: [HOT] Worried about task 1018
>         
>         Hi all,
>         
>         I understand your worry Paul, and have the same experience of unvalidating tasks. I put clear comments for the people to know why. There is no offense I hope, everyone has been a beginner once and learning and improving is part of the motivation with OSM, IMHO.
>         I just suggested this change in the asking Manager that should prevent in the future the fact that tiles are validated by beginners:
>         https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/issues/598, titled: Validate button only for mappers who clicked previously on Edit with JOSM.
>         I also hope iD will have in the future not only a building mapping tool, but also (as mappers may not use the building tool) an automatic proposition to square or round the shape that has just been traced as soon as a building tag is chosen (GitHub issue: https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2624).
>         
>         The tools and the documentation apart, we also need to organize and exchange between us the people: who is interested in validation checking meaning also providing feedback or monitoring beginners? Basically you need to be a proficient user of JOSM and having a lot of edits (not less than with 4-5 zeros, I would say)
>         It takes a bit of time but it is valuable and a nice way to interact. My hello to Suzan Reed who asked me  directly for monitoring her tasks.
>         We have a list <http://tools.neis-one.org/tmp/20150425-20150505_Nepal_NewContributorsOSM.txt> (thanks to Pascal Neis!) of the beginners from the start of the Activation, some are drive-bys (typically only 1 day of mapping, a few edits) and others more to super committed mappers. I have started a spreadsheet for those who would like to monitor these committed mappers.
>         
>         Sincerely,
>         
>         Severin
>         
>         On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 10:10 AM, Extra Paul <[hidden email] <http://paulokoko@...>> wrote:
>
>
>             
>             Dear openstreetmappers :)
>             
>             I'm quite worried about the quality of maps for task 1018.
>             Many of mappers, obviously, did not check the instructions or even the tutorials. People want to help, and that's awesome, but maybe validation should be done my more experienced and meticulous mappers.
>             I've seen mappers validating more that 10 areas in less than an hour, and those areas still contain many errors : clusters of buildings mapped as one, landuse=residential area used for clusters of nothing more than 1 or 2 buildings, many streams seen as footpath, many paths in the middle of nowhere...
>             Maybe instructions should contain some images to show clearly what is expected, and explain that the purpose of this map is to count each individual buildings and have roads and paths connected to them so buildings can be reached by humanitarian teams.
>             Currently, most of my time on 1018 is to check validated areas because half of those areas are not correctly mapped.
>             
>             Paul
>
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         HOT mailing list
>         [hidden email] <http://HOT@...>
>         https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>         
>
>     _______________________________________________ HOT mailing list [hidden email] [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> HOT mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot


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Re: Worried about task 1018

Suzan Reed
In reply to this post by severin
Validating:
Validation button only shows up for user with x number of edits/tiles completed and/or passing a quick validation test.

Survey:
Survey to all new users would provide data for improvement of OSM marketing, use, and training. The sooner the better.

Where do you comment?
Don't know where else to make these suggestions as OSM seems to be quite scattered in training and feedback.

One place to list all training:
Would suggest someone take leadership to bring all training under one umbrella, i.e. a site where every training link is listed, with the goal to eventually have all training on one site.

It seems to me a lot of highly talented and intelligent people are doing excellent work to provide background and training, but it's done ad hoc without any coordination. If it were coordinated, what a treasure it would be.

I volunteer to work on a team with more experienced OSM members to 1) set up this page/site at OSM.org 2) gather all links to training in every language 3) organize them 4) promote them.

Suzan Reed
USA

On May 9, 2015, at 4:49 AM, Severin Menard wrote:

Hi all,

I understand your worry Paul, and have the same experience of unvalidating tasks. I put clear comments for the people to know why. There is no offense I hope, everyone has been a beginner once and learning and improving is part of the motivation with OSM, IMHO.
I just suggested this change in the asking Manager that should prevent in the future the fact that tiles are validated by beginners:
https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/issues/598, titled: Validate button only for mappers who clicked previously on Edit with JOSM.
I also hope iD will have in the future not only a building mapping tool, but also (as mappers may not use the building tool) an automatic proposition to square or round the shape that has just been traced as soon as a building tag is chosen (GitHub issue: https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2624).

The tools and the documentation apart, we also need to organize and exchange between us the people: who is interested in validation checking meaning also providing feedback or monitoring beginners? Basically you need to be a proficient user of JOSM and having a lot of edits (not less than with 4-5 zeros, I would say)
It takes a bit of time but it is valuable and a nice way to interact. My hello to Suzan Reed who asked me  directly for monitoring her tasks.
We have a list (thanks to Pascal Neis!) of the beginners from the start of the Activation, some are drive-bys (typically only 1 day of mapping, a few edits) and others more to super committed mappers. I have started a spreadsheet for those who would like to monitor these committed mappers.

Sincerely,

Severin

On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 10:10 AM, Extra Paul <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear openstreetmappers :)

I'm quite worried about the quality of maps for task 1018.
Many of mappers, obviously, did not check the instructions or even the tutorials. People want to help, and that's awesome, but maybe validation should be done my more experienced and meticulous mappers.
I've seen mappers validating more that 10 areas in less than an hour, and those areas still contain many errors : clusters of buildings mapped as one, landuse=residential area used for clusters of nothing more than 1 or 2 buildings, many streams seen as footpath, many paths in the middle of nowhere...
Maybe instructions should contain some images to show clearly what is expected, and explain that the purpose of this map is to count each individual buildings and have roads and paths connected to them so buildings can be reached by humanitarian teams.
Currently, most of my time on 1018 is to check validated areas because half of those areas are not correctly mapped.

Paul

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Re: Worried about task 1018

Springfield Harrison
I agree with the comments that I've formatted in bold below, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring


At 09-05-2015 15:34 Saturday, Suzan Reed wrote:
Validating: Validation button only shows up for user with x number of edits/tiles completed and/or passing a quick validation test. Survey: Survey to all new users would provide data for improvement of OSM marketing, use, and training. The sooner the better. Where do you comment? Don't know where else to make these suggestions as OSM seems to be quite scattered in training and feedback. One place to list all training: Would suggest someone take leadership to bring all training under one umbrella, i.e. a site where every training link is listed, with the goal to eventually have all training on one site. It seems to me a lot of highly talented and intelligent people are doing excellent work to provide background and training, but it's done ad hoc without any coordination. If it were coordinated, what a treasure it would be. I volunteer to work on a team with more experienced OSM members to 1) set up this page/site at OSM.org 2) gather all links to training in every language 3) organize them 4) promote them. Suzan Reed USA On May 9, 2015, at 4:49 AM, Severin Menard wrote: Hi all, I understand your worry Paul, and have the same experience of unvalidating tasks. I put clear comments for the people to know why. There is no offense I hope, everyone has been a beginner once and learning and improving is part of the motivation with OSM, IMHO. I just suggested this change in the asking Manager that should prevent in the future the fact that tiles are validated by beginners: https://github.com/hotosm/osm- tasking-manager2/issues/598, titled: Validate button only for mappers who clicked previously on Edit with JOSM. I also hope iD will have in the future not only a building mapping tool, but also (as mappers may not use the building tool) an automatic proposition to square or round the shape that has just been traced as soon as a building tag is chosen (GitHub issue: https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2624). The tools and the documentation apart, we also need to organize and exchange between us the people: who is interested in validation checking meaning also providing feedback or monitoring beginners? Basically you need to be a proficient user of JOSM and having a lot of edits (not less than with 4-5 zeros, I would say) It takes a bit of time but it is valuable and a nice way to interact. My hello to Suzan Reed who asked me directly for monitoring her tasks. We have a list (thanks to Pascal Neis!) of the beginners from the start of the Activation, some are drive-bys (typically only 1 day of mapping, a few edits) and others more to super committed mappers. I have started a spreadsheet for those who would like to monitor these committed mappers. Sincerely, Severin On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 10:10 AM, Extra Paul <[hidden email]> wrote: Dear openstreetmappers :) I'm quite worried about the quality of maps for task 1018. Many of mappers, obviously, did not check the instructions or even the tutorials. People want to help, and that's awesome, but maybe validation should be done my more experienced and meticulous mappers. I've seen mappers validating more that 10 areas in less than an hour, and those areas still contain many errors : clusters of buildings mapped as one, landuse=residential area used for clusters of nothing more than 1 or 2 buildings, many streams seen as footpath, many paths in the middle of nowhere... Maybe instructions should contain some images to show clearly what is expected, and explain that the purpose of this map is to count each individual buildings and have roads and paths connected to them so buildings can be reached by humanitarian teams. Currently, most of my time on 1018 is to check validated areas because half of those areas are not correctly mapped. Paul _______________________________________________ HOT mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot _______________________________________________ HOT mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot _______________________________________________ HOT mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

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Re: Worried about task 1018

Russell Deffner-3
Hi Springfield,

We do have that, it's http://LearnOSM.org and is generally organized and maintained by our Training Working Group which I believe meets tomorrow.


On May 10, 2015, at 12:35 AM, Springfield Harrison <[hidden email]> wrote:

I agree with the comments that I've formatted in bold below, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring


At 09-05-2015 15:34 Saturday, Suzan Reed wrote:
Validating: Validation button only shows up for user with x number of edits/tiles completed and/or passing a quick validation test. Survey: Survey to all new users would provide data for improvement of OSM marketing, use, and training. The sooner the better. Where do you comment? Don't know where else to make these suggestions as OSM seems to be quite scattered in training and feedback. One place to list all training: Would suggest someone take leadership to bring all training under one umbrella, i.e. a site where every training link is listed, with the goal to eventually have all training on one site. It seems to me a lot of highly talented and intelligent people are doing excellent work to provide background and training, but it's done ad hoc without any coordination. If it were coordinated, what a treasure it would be. I volunteer to work on a team with more experienced OSM members to 1) set up this page/site at OSM.org 2) gather all links to training in every language 3) organize them 4) promote them. Suzan Reed USA On May 9, 2015, at 4:49 AM, Severin Menard wrote: Hi all, I understand your worry Paul, and have the same experience of unvalidating tasks. I put clear comments for the people to know why. There is no offense I hope, everyone has been a beginner once and learning and improving is part of the motivation with OSM, IMHO. I just suggested this change in the asking Manager that should prevent in the future the fact that tiles are validated by beginners: https://github.com/hotosm/osm- tasking-manager2/issues/598, titled: Validate button only for mappers who clicked previously on Edit with JOSM. I also hope iD will have in the future not only a building mapping tool, but also (as mappers may not use the building tool) an automatic proposition to square or round the shape that has just been traced as soon as a building tag is chosen (GitHub issue: https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2624). The tools and the documentation apart, we also need to organize and exchange between us the people: who is interested in validation checking meaning also providing feedback or monitoring beginners? Basically you need to be a proficient user of JOSM and having a lot of edits (not less than with 4-5 zeros, I would say) It takes a bit of time but it is valuable and a nice way to interact. My hello to Suzan Reed who asked me directly for monitoring her tasks. We have a list (thanks to Pascal Neis!) of the beginners from the start of the Activation, some are drive-bys (typically only 1 day of mapping, a few edits) and others more to super committed mappers. I have started a spreadsheet for those who would like to monitor these committed mappers. Sincerely, Severin On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 10:10 AM, Extra Paul <[hidden email]> wrote: Dear openstreetmappers :) I'm quite worried about the quality of maps for task 1018. Many of mappers, obviously, did not check the instructions or even the tutorials. People want to help, and that's awesome, but maybe validation should be done my more experienced and meticulous mappers. I've seen mappers validating more that 10 areas in less than an hour, and those areas still contain many errors : clusters of buildings mapped as one, landuse=residential area used for clusters of nothing more than 1 or 2 buildings, many streams seen as footpath, many paths in the middle of nowhere... Maybe instructions should contain some images to show clearly what is expected, and explain that the purpose of this map is to count each individual buildings and have roads and paths connected to them so buildings can be reached by humanitarian teams. Currently, most of my time on 1018 is to check validated areas because half of those areas are not correctly mapped. Paul _______________________________________________ HOT mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot _______________________________________________ HOT mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot _______________________________________________ HOT mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
_______________________________________________
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Re: Worried about task 1018

Springfield Harrison
Hi Russ,

        Thanks for that, I believe I had looked at it earlier.  It is a bit general but good for starters.

         Specifically, what are the rules around validating tiles?  In other words, who qualifies to be a validator and what does the validator actually do?  Do they mark each mapped feature as valid?  Do they correct features according to their own criteria?  Or do they just peruse the whole tile and Mark the whole thing valid if they don't see any gross errors?  This is probably explained somewhere, but I haven't stumbled across it yet.

        I ask this because I see references to mapping problems not necessarily being remedied by the validating process.  How is it supposed to work?

                 Thanks very much, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring



At 10-05-2015 07:47 Sunday, Russell Deffner wrote:
Hi Springfield,

We do have that, it's http://LearnOSM.org and is generally organized and maintained by our Training Working Group which I believe meets tomorrow.

=Russ

http://hotosm.org

On May 10, 2015, at 12:35 AM, Springfield Harrison <[hidden email]> wrote:

I agree with the comments that I've formatted in bold below, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring


At 09-05-2015 15:34 Saturday, Suzan Reed wrote:
Validating: Validation button only shows up for user with x number of edits/tiles completed and/or passing a quick validation test. Survey: Survey to all new users would provide data for improvement of OSM marketing, use, and training. The sooner the better. Where do you comment? Don't know where else to make these suggestions as OSM seems to be quite scattered in training and feedback. One place to list all training: Would suggest someone take leadership to bring all training under one umbrella, i.e. a site where every training link is listed, with the goal to eventually have all training on one site. It seems to me a lot of highly talented and intelligent people are doing excellent work to provide background and training, but it's done ad hoc without any coordination. If it were coordinated, what a treasure it would be. I volunteer to work on a team with more experienced OSM members to 1) set up this page/site at OSM.org 2) gather all links to training in every language 3) organize them 4) promote them. Suzan Reed USA On May 9, 2015, at 4:49 AM, Severin Menard wrote: Hi all, I understand your worry Paul, and have the same experience of unvalidating tasks. I put clear comments for the people to know why. There is no offense I hope, everyone has been a beginner once and learning and improving is part of the motivation with OSM, IMHO. I just suggested this change in the asking Manager that should prevent in the future the fact that tiles are validated by beginners: https://github.com/hotosm/osm- tasking-manager2/issues/598, titled: Validate button only for mappers who clicked previously on Edit with JOSM. I also hope iD will have in the future not only a building mapping tool, but also (as mappers may not use the building tool) an automatic proposition to square or round the shape that has just been traced as soon as a building tag is chosen (GitHub issue: https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2624). The tools and the documentation apart, we also need to organize and exchange between us the people: who is interested in validation checking meaning also providing feedback or monitoring beginners? Basically you need to be a proficient user of JOSM and having a lot of edits (not less than with 4-5 zeros, I would say) It takes a bit of time but it is valuable and a nice way to interact. My hello to Suzan Reed who asked me directly for monitoring her tasks. We have a list (thanks to Pascal Neis!) of the beginners from the start of the Activation, some are drive-bys (typically only 1 day of mapping, a few edits) and others more to super committed mappers. I have started a spreadsheet for those who would like to monitor these committed mappers. Sincerely, Severin On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 10:10 AM, Extra Paul <[hidden email]> wrote: Dear openstreetmappers :) I'm quite worried about the quality of maps for task 1018. Many of mappers, obviously, did not check the instructions or even the tutorials. People want to help, and that's awesome, but maybe validation should be done my more experienced and meticulous mappers. I've seen mappers validating more that 10 areas in less than an hour, and those areas still contain many errors : clusters of buildings mapped as one, landuse=residential area used for clusters of nothing more than 1 or 2 buildings, many streams seen as footpath, many paths in the middle of nowhere... Maybe instructions should contain some images to show clearly what is expected, and explain that the purpose of this map is to count each individual buildings and have roads and paths connected to them so buildings can be reached by humanitarian teams. Currently, most of my time on 1018 is to check validated areas because half of those areas are not correctly mapped. Paul _______________________________________________ HOT mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot _______________________________________________ HOT mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot _______________________________________________ HOT mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
_______________________________________________
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Re: Worried about task 1018

Nick Allen-2
Spring,

The guidance on validating is currently at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Tasking_Manager/Validating_data

In theory anyone can validate, but the recent influx of thousands of newbies has caused a lot of discussion. I suspect that by the time we have finished the software will have been updated so that only those who ....... to be decided, will be able to validate.

For HOT we need to be able to provide a level of confidence in what we produce, and that is difficult at present, in the initial stages as we've had newbies validating their own work, as well as each others. Nice green covered maps, but no confidence in the accuracy. There is a lot of work taking place to rectify this.

My view on validating has always been that it has two purposes:
1/. A form of coaching, whereby we help each other to improve our mapping skills by giving guidance in the form of messages by the validator, and
2/. Maintain a standard of confidence in what we produce.

We all make mistakes, and I would expect anyone validating any squares I have completed to correct any minor errors rather than invalidate just because one or two buildings are missing. The last thing we need is resentment. Everyone will have their own opinion as to exactly what is correct, and whether a road should be a path / track / or unclassified etc..

The whole process does not stop with someone changing the square to green, so many of the errors are corrected later, but it is a lot easier if they are not made in the first place, or quickly corrected by a competent validator who also gives encouraging feedback.

The whole process, together with information about sending messages using the tasking manager, is explained here  http://learnosm.org/en/coordination/tasking-manager/

There are also sections in LearnOSM about aerial imagery http://learnosm.org/en/editing/aerial-imagery/  and in the following chapter about imagery offset http://learnosm.org/en/editing/correcting-imagery-offset/  but I'm not sure if they are detailed enough for the subjects you have been discussing.

Regards

Nick


On 11/05/15 05:30, Springfield Harrison wrote:
Hi Russ,

        Thanks for that, I believe I had looked at it earlier.  It is a bit general but good for starters.

         Specifically, what are the rules around validating tiles?  In other words, who qualifies to be a validator and what does the validator actually do?  Do they mark each mapped feature as valid?  Do they correct features according to their own criteria?  Or do they just peruse the whole tile and Mark the whole thing valid if they don't see any gross errors?  This is probably explained somewhere, but I haven't stumbled across it yet.

        I ask this because I see references to mapping problems not necessarily being remedied by the validating process.  How is it supposed to work?

                 Thanks very much, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring



At 10-05-2015 07:47 Sunday, Russell Deffner wrote:
Hi Springfield,

We do have that, it's http://LearnOSM.org and is generally organized and maintained by our Training Working Group which I believe meets tomorrow.

=Russ

http://hotosm.org

On May 10, 2015, at 12:35 AM, Springfield Harrison <[hidden email]> wrote:

I agree with the comments that I've formatted in bold below, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring


At 09-05-2015 15:34 Saturday, Suzan Reed wrote:
Validating: Validation button only shows up for user with x number of edits/tiles completed and/or passing a quick validation test. Survey: Survey to all new users would provide data for improvement of OSM marketing, use, and training. The sooner the better. Where do you comment? Don't know where else to make these suggestions as OSM seems to be quite scattered in training and feedback. One place to list all training: Would suggest someone take leadership to bring all training under one umbrella, i.e. a site where every training link is listed, with the goal to eventually have all training on one site. It seems to me a lot of highly talented and intelligent people are doing excellent work to provide background and training, but it's done ad hoc without any coordination. If it were coordinated, what a treasure it would be. I volunteer to work on a team with more experienced OSM members to 1) set up this page/site at OSM.org 2) gather all links to training in every language 3) organize them 4) promote them. Suzan Reed USA On May 9, 2015, at 4:49 AM, Severin Menard wrote: Hi all, I understand your worry Paul, and have the same experience of unvalidating tasks. I put clear comments for the people to know why. There is no offense I hope, everyone has been a beginner once and learning and improving is part of the motivation with OSM, IMHO. I just suggested this change in the asking Manager that should prevent in the future the fact that tiles are validated by beginners: https://github.com/hotosm/osm- tasking-manager2/issues/598, titled: Validate button only for mappers who clicked previously on Edit with JOSM. I also hope iD will have in the future not only a building mapping tool, but also (as mappers may not use the building tool) an automatic proposition to square or round the shape that has just been traced as soon as a building tag is chosen (GitHub issue: https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2624). The tools and the documentation apart, we also need to organize and exchange between us the people: who is interested in validation checking meaning also providing feedback or monitoring beginners? Basically you need to be a proficient user of JOSM and having a lot of edits (not less than with 4-5 zeros, I would say) It takes a bit of time but it is valuable and a nice way to interact. My hello to Suzan Reed who asked me directly for monitoring her tasks. We have a list (thanks to Pascal Neis!) of the beginners from the start of the Activation, some are drive-bys (typically only 1 day of mapping, a few edits) and others more to super committed mappers. I have started a spreadsheet for those who would like to monitor these committed mappers. Sincerely, Severin On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 10:10 AM, Extra Paul <[hidden email]> wrote: Dear openstreetmappers :) I'm quite worried about the quality of maps for task 1018. Many of mappers, obviously, did not check the instructions or even the tutorials. People want to help, and that's awesome, but maybe validation should be done my more experienced and meticulous mappers. I've seen mappers validating more that 10 areas in less than an hour, and those areas still contain many errors : clusters of buildings mapped as one, landuse=residential area used for clusters of nothing more than 1 or 2 buildings, many streams seen as footpath, many paths in the middle of nowhere... Maybe instructions should contain some images to show clearly what is expected, and explain that the purpose of this map is to count each individual buildings and have roads and paths connected to them so buildings can be reached by humanitarian teams. Currently, most of my time on 1018 is to check validated areas because half of those areas are not correctly mapped. Paul _______________________________________________ HOT mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot _______________________________________________ HOT mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot _______________________________________________ HOT mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot


_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
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Re: Worried about task 1018

Barbara Figge
In reply to this post by Barbara Figge
Hello everyone!
As promided I continued mapping buildings today. I just right now wanted to save the changes (nearly 200 buildings, now I know why one should do it earlier...) and get a message" You are just to delete 466 elements, are you sure?" Surely I not want to delete these ones but also I want to save my 200 buildings... Sonmeone here who knows what I did or what I can do now? It's again task 1018, #2777.
Thank your very much and greetings!
Barbara
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 09. Mai 2015 um 18:22 Uhr
Von: "Barbara Figge" <[hidden email]>
An: "john whelan" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Betreff: Re: [HOT] Worried about task 1018
Thanks for the words and information, so I will continue mapping buildings!
Greetings,
Barbara
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 09. Mai 2015 um 18:08 Uhr
Von: "john whelan" <[hidden email]>
An: "Barbara Figge" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Pierre Béland" <[hidden email]>, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Betreff: Re: Re: [HOT] Worried about task 1018
Pierre says it best but my thoughts follow.

To me the unsquared buildings are not a major issue in Nepal.  Within a tile a JOSM user can select buildings, then select an unsquared one remember the user select buildings once more then square all the buildings for that user in one keystroke.
 
As a beginner I suggest you don't correct odd areas, let someone else do the dirty deed, it saves having upset users and sometimes its just a matter of someone forgetting to tag it and often an experienced mapper can glance at it and give it a tag.
 
Paths and tracks unless its very clear I stay away from these in Nepal and I'm fairly experienced.  There are a number of terraces, the land can be quite steep so even though two ends of a path may look close together reality is its a long drop between the two.
 
For the moment I'd just add buildings, if you can manage to use JOSM and the building_tool plugin, you'll need the remote control plugin as well you'll find it's very easy to use and produces squared buildings correctly tagged and we have a lot of buildings to add.
 
Cheerio John
 
On 9 May 2015 at 11:12, Barbara Figge <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi to everyone,
I am one of the beginners of the last weeks, since last friday I mapped - mostly buildings (and mostly unsquared, I am one of them, too), tried some paths. I try to read the mailing list notes in between, I started with the mapgive things before first mapping, I read the instructions before starting, I did not validate and though these mistakes happened. But I am learning a lot.
Currently I am a little irritated about all the mistakes one can make and so I made up my mind not to stop mapping, but to stay on the safe side of the street: mapping buildings, and after I noticed the importance of buildings being squared, squaring my and the buildings of others.
Now there are some questions left: in the tile I worked in there are some areas without description (and no bulding or something else to see)- shall I delete them or do they have a special reason I overread in the mailing list conversation?
There are a lot of mapped buildings, where the symbol is some meters away from the building. Shall I correct or is it okay?
And: is there a possibility to go back to a tile I worked on by searching the number or must I search inside the map?
Best wishes and: as far as I can see from my small desk, a lot of people are doing great work!
Barbara
barbaraulrike in osm
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 09. Mai 2015 um 15:11 Uhr
Von: "john whelan" <[hidden email]>
An: "Pierre Béland" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Betreff: Re: [HOT] Worried about task 1018
I think I'm moderately experienced in mapping.  In West Africa I'm very comfortable validating, in Nepal I'm happy I know what a building looks like but paths, streams etc I'm not so comfortable with, there is a lot of distracting detail on the images.  Do I validate and clean up the building and tag side?  Or just add a few more buildings?
 
Thoughts?
 
Thanks John
 
On 9 May 2015 at 08:27, Pierre Béland <pierzenh@...> wrote:
We have to adapt to an awesome contribution with this Nepal emergency. We need more people. At the same time, we need to adapt in various ways to crowdsourcing as we see various problems arizing.
 
I also opened a ticket. This would be for the validators to prioritize validating first for the less experienced. A checkbox could let show only tiles selected by less experienced contributors.
 
regard
 
Pierre
 

De : Severin Menard <severin.menard@...>
À : Extra Paul <paulokoko@...>
Cc : "hot@..." <hot@...>
Envoyé le : Samedi 9 mai 2015 7h49
Objet : Re: [HOT] Worried about task 1018
 
Hi all,
 
I understand your worry Paul, and have the same experience of unvalidating tasks. I put clear comments for the people to know why. There is no offense I hope, everyone has been a beginner once and learning and improving is part of the motivation with OSM, IMHO.
I just suggested this change in the asking Manager that should prevent in the future the fact that tiles are validated by beginners:
https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/issues/598, titled: Validate button only for mappers who clicked previously on Edit with JOSM. 
I also hope iD will have in the future not only a building mapping tool, but also (as mappers may not use the building tool) an automatic proposition to square or round the shape that has just been traced as soon as a building tag is chosen (GitHub issue: https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2624).
 
The tools and the documentation apart, we also need to organize and exchange between us the people: who is interested in validation checking meaning also providing feedback or monitoring beginners? Basically you need to be a proficient user of JOSM and having a lot of edits (not less than with 4-5 zeros, I would say)
It takes a bit of time but it is valuable and a nice way to interact. My hello to Suzan Reed who asked me  directly for monitoring her tasks.
We have a list (thanks to Pascal Neis!) of the beginners from the start of the Activation, some are drive-bys (typically only 1 day of mapping, a few edits) and others more to super committed mappers. I have started a spreadsheet for those who would like to monitor these committed mappers.
 
Sincerely,
 
Severin
 
On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 10:10 AM, Extra Paul <paulokoko@...> wrote:

 
Dear openstreetmappers :)
 
I'm quite worried about the quality of maps for task 1018.
Many of mappers, obviously, did not check the instructions or even the tutorials. People want to help, and that's awesome, but maybe validation should be done my more experienced and meticulous mappers.
I've seen mappers validating more that 10 areas in less than an hour, and those areas still contain many errors : clusters of buildings mapped as one, landuse=residential area used for clusters of nothing more than 1 or 2 buildings, many streams seen as footpath, many paths in the middle of nowhere... 
Maybe instructions should contain some images to show clearly what is expected, and explain that the purpose of this map is to count each individual buildings and have roads and paths connected to them so buildings can be reached by humanitarian teams.
Currently, most of my time on 1018 is to check validated areas because half of those areas are not correctly mapped.
 
Paul

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_______________________________________________ HOT mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
_______________________________________________ HOT mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

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Re: Worried about task 1018

piz
probably while editing you have changed/deleted something, and the system is telling what you are going to save

Roberto




~~~~~~~~ quote of the day ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"more beer!"
(Big Wednesday - 1978)


-- In data lunedì 11 maggio 2015 13:51:05, Barbara Figge ha scritto:

> <html><head></head><body><div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;"><div>
> <div>Hello everyone!</div>
>
> <div>As promided I continued mapping buildings today. I just right now wanted to save the changes (nearly 200 buildings, now I know why one should do it earlier...) and get a message&quot; You are just to delete 466 elements, are you sure?&quot; Surely I not want to delete these ones but also I want to save my 200 buildings... Sonmeone here who knows what I did or what I can do now? It&#39;s again task 1018, #2777.</div>
>
> <div>Thank your very much and greetings!</div>
>
> <div>Barbara</div>
>
> <div>&nbsp;
> <div name="quote" style="margin:10px 5px 5px 10px; padding: 10px 0 10px 10px; border-left:2px solid #C3D9E5; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">
> <div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b>&nbsp;Samstag, 09. Mai 2015 um 18:22 Uhr<br/>
> <b>Von:</b>&nbsp;&quot;Barbara Figge&quot; &lt;[hidden email]&gt;<br/>
> <b>An:</b>&nbsp;&quot;john whelan&quot; &lt;[hidden email]&gt;<br/>
> <b>Cc:</b>&nbsp;&quot;[hidden email]&quot; &lt;[hidden email]&gt;<br/>
> <b>Betreff:</b>&nbsp;Re: [HOT] Worried about task 1018</div>
>
> <div name="quoted-content">
> <div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
> <div>
> <div>Thanks for the words and information, so I will continue mapping buildings!</div>
>
> <div>Greetings,</div>
>
> <div>Barbara</div>
>
> <div>&nbsp;
> <div style="margin: 10.0px 5.0px 5.0px 10.0px;padding: 10.0px 0 10.0px 10.0px;border-left: 2.0px solid rgb(195,217,229);">
> <div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b>&nbsp;Samstag, 09. Mai 2015 um 18:08 Uhr<br/>
> <b>Von:</b>&nbsp;&quot;john whelan&quot; &lt;[hidden email]&gt;<br/>
> <b>An:</b>&nbsp;&quot;Barbara Figge&quot; &lt;[hidden email]&gt;<br/>
> <b>Cc:</b>&nbsp;&quot;Pierre B&eacute;land&quot; &lt;[hidden email]&gt;, &quot;[hidden email]&quot; &lt;[hidden email]&gt;<br/>
> <b>Betreff:</b>&nbsp;Re: Re: [HOT] Worried about task 1018</div>
>
> <div>
> <div>
> <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: verdana , sans-serif;font-size: small;">Pierre says it best but my thoughts follow.</div>
>
> <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: verdana , sans-serif;font-size: small;"><br/>
> To me the unsquared buildings are not a major issue in Nepal.&nbsp; Within a tile a JOSM user can select buildings, then select an unsquared one remember the user select buildings once more then square all the buildings for that user in one keystroke.<br/>
> &nbsp;</div>
>
> <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: verdana , sans-serif;font-size: small;">As a beginner I suggest you don&#39;t correct odd areas, let someone else do the dirty deed, it saves having upset users and sometimes its just a matter of someone forgetting to tag it and often an experienced mapper can glance at it and give it a tag.<br/>
> &nbsp;</div>
>
> <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: verdana , sans-serif;font-size: small;">Paths and tracks unless its very clear I stay away from these in Nepal and I&#39;m fairly experienced.&nbsp; There are a number of terraces, the land can be quite steep so even though two ends of a path may look close together reality is its a long drop between the two.<br/>
> &nbsp;</div>
>
> <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: verdana , sans-serif;font-size: small;">For the moment I&#39;d just add buildings, if you can manage to use JOSM and the building_tool plugin, you&#39;ll need the remote control plugin as well you&#39;ll find it&#39;s very easy to use and produces squared buildings correctly tagged and we have a lot of buildings to add.<br/>
> &nbsp;</div>
>
> <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: verdana , sans-serif;font-size: small;">Cheerio John</div>
> </div>
>
> <div class="gmail_extra">&nbsp;
> <div class="gmail_quote">On 9 May 2015 at 11:12, Barbara Figge <span>&lt;<a>[hidden email]</a>&gt;</span> wrote:
>
> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0 0 0 0.8ex;border-left: 1.0px rgb(204,204,204) solid;padding-left: 1.0ex;">
> <div>
> <div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
> <div>
> <div>Hi to everyone,</div>
>
> <div>I am one of the beginners of the last weeks, since last friday I mapped - mostly buildings (and mostly unsquared, I am one of them, too), tried some paths. I try to read the mailing list notes in between, I started with the mapgive things before first mapping, I read the instructions before starting, I did not validate and though these mistakes happened. But I am learning a lot.</div>
>
> <div>Currently I am a little irritated about all the mistakes one can make and so I made up my mind not to stop mapping, but to stay on the safe side of the street: mapping buildings, and after I noticed the importance of buildings being squared, squaring my and the buildings of others.</div>
>
> <div>Now there are some questions left: in the tile I worked in there are some areas without description (and no bulding or something else to see)- shall I delete them or do they have a special reason I overread in the mailing list conversation?</div>
>
> <div>There are a lot of mapped buildings, where the symbol is some meters away from the building. Shall I correct or is it okay?</div>
>
> <div>And: is there a possibility to go back to a tile I worked on by searching the number or must I search inside the map?</div>
>
> <div>Best wishes and: as far as I can see from my small desk, a lot of people are doing great work!</div>
>
> <div>Barbara</div>
>
> <div>barbaraulrike in osm</div>
>
> <div>&nbsp;
> <div style="margin: 10.0px 5.0px 5.0px 10.0px;padding: 10.0px 0 10.0px 10.0px;border-left: 2.0px solid rgb(195,217,229);">
> <div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b>&nbsp;Samstag, 09. Mai 2015 um 15:11 Uhr<br/>
> <b>Von:</b>&nbsp;&quot;john whelan&quot; &lt;<a>[hidden email]</a>&gt;<br/>
> <b>An:</b>&nbsp;&quot;Pierre B&eacute;land&quot; &lt;<a>[hidden email]</a>&gt;<br/>
> <b>Cc:</b>&nbsp;&quot;<a>[hidden email]</a>&quot; &lt;<a>[hidden email]</a>&gt;<br/>
> <b>Betreff:</b>&nbsp;Re: [HOT] Worried about task 1018</div>
>
> <div>
> <div class="h5">
> <div>
> <div>
> <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: verdana , sans-serif;font-size: small;">I think I&#39;m moderately experienced in mapping.&nbsp; In West Africa I&#39;m very comfortable validating, in Nepal I&#39;m happy I know what a building looks like but paths, streams etc I&#39;m not so comfortable with, there is a lot of distracting detail on the images.&nbsp; Do I validate and clean up the building and tag side?&nbsp; Or just add a few more buildings?<br/>
> &nbsp;</div>
>
> <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: verdana , sans-serif;font-size: small;">Thoughts?<br/>
> &nbsp;</div>
>
> <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family: verdana , sans-serif;font-size: small;">Thanks John</div>
> </div>
>
> <div class="gmail_extra">&nbsp;
> <div class="gmail_quote">On 9 May 2015 at 08:27, Pierre B&eacute;land <span>&lt;<a href="http://pierzenh@..." target="_blank">[hidden email]</a>&gt;</span> wrote:
>
> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0 0 0 0.8ex;border-left: 1.0px rgb(204,204,204) solid;padding-left: 1.0ex;">
> <div>
> <div style="color: rgb(0,0,0);background-color: rgb(255,255,255);font-family: verdana , helvetica , sans-serif;font-size: 13.0px;">
> <div>We have to adapt to an awesome contribution with this Nepal emergency. We need more people. At the same time, we need to adapt in various ways to crowdsourcing as we see various problems arizing.</div>
>
> <div>&nbsp;</div>
>
> <div>I also opened a ticket. This would be for the validators to prioritize validating first for the less experienced. A checkbox could let show only tiles selected by less experienced contributors.</div>
>
> <div><a href="https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/issues/599" target="_blank">https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/issues/599</a></div>
>
> <div>&nbsp;</div>
>
> <div>
> <div>regard</div>
> </div>
>
> <div><span style="font-style: italic;color: rgb(0,0,191);font-weight: bold;">&nbsp;<br/>
> <font face="garamond, new york, times, serif">Pierre </font></span></div>
> &nbsp;
>
> <div style="font-family: verdana , helvetica , sans-serif;font-size: 13.0px;">
> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue , Helvetica Neue , Helvetica , Arial , Lucida Grande , sans-serif;font-size: 16.0px;">
> <div>
> <hr size="1"/><font face="Arial" size="2"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">De&nbsp;:</span></b> Severin Menard &lt;<a href="http://severin.menard@..." target="_blank">[hidden email]</a>&gt;<br/>
> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">&Agrave;&nbsp;:</span></b> Extra Paul &lt;<a href="http://paulokoko@..." target="_blank">[hidden email]</a>&gt;<br/>
> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc&nbsp;:</span></b> &quot;<a href="http://hot@..." target="_blank">[hidden email]</a>&quot; &lt;<a href="http://hot@..." target="_blank">[hidden email]</a>&gt;<br/>
> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Envoy&eacute; le :</span></b> Samedi 9 mai 2015 7h49<br/>
> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Objet&nbsp;:</span></b> Re: [HOT] Worried about task 1018</font></div>
>
> <div>
> <div>
> <div>&nbsp;
> <div>
> <div>
> <div>
> <div>
> <div>Hi all,<br clear="none"/>
> &nbsp;</div>
> I understand your worry Paul, and have the same experience of unvalidating tasks. I put clear comments for the people to know why. There is no offense I hope, everyone has been a beginner once and learning and improving is part of the motivation with OSM, IMHO.</div>
> I just suggested this change in the asking Manager that should prevent in the future the fact that tiles are validated by beginners:
>
> <div style="margin: 0.0px;text-indent: 0.0px;"><a href="https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/issues/598" target="_blank">https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/issues/598</a>, titled: Validate button only for mappers who clicked previously on Edit with JOSM.&nbsp;</div>
>
> <div style="margin: 0.0px;text-indent: 0.0px;">I also hope iD will have in the future not only a building mapping tool, but also (as mappers may not use the building tool) an automatic proposition to square or round the shape that has just been traced as soon as a building tag is chosen (GitHub issue: <a href="https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2624" target="_blank">https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2624</a>).</div>
>
> <div style="margin: 0.0px;text-indent: 0.0px;">&nbsp;</div>
>
> <div style="margin: 0.0px;text-indent: 0.0px;">The tools and the documentation apart, we also need to organize and exchange between us the people: who is interested in validation checking meaning also providing feedback or monitoring beginners? Basically you need to be a proficient user of JOSM and having a lot of edits (not less than with 4-5 zeros, I would say)</div>
>
> <div style="margin: 0.0px;text-indent: 0.0px;">It takes a bit of time but it is valuable and a nice way to interact. My hello to Suzan Reed who asked me&nbsp; directly for monitoring her tasks.</div>
>
> <div style="margin: 0.0px;text-indent: 0.0px;">We have a <a href="http://tools.neis-one.org/tmp/20150425-20150505_Nepal_NewContributorsOSM.txt" target="_blank">list</a> (thanks to Pascal Neis!) of the beginners from the start of the Activation, some are drive-bys (typically only 1 day of mapping, a few edits) and others more to super committed mappers. I have started a spreadsheet for those who would like to monitor these committed mappers.</div>
>
> <div style="margin: 0.0px;text-indent: 0.0px;">&nbsp;</div>
>
> <div style="margin: 0.0px;text-indent: 0.0px;">Sincerely,</div>
>
> <div style="margin: 0.0px;text-indent: 0.0px;">&nbsp;</div>
>
> <div style="margin: 0.0px;text-indent: 0.0px;">Severin</div>
>
> <div>
> <div>
> <div>
> <div>&nbsp;
> <div>On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 10:10 AM, Extra Paul <span>&lt;<a href="http://paulokoko@..." target="_blank">[hidden email]</a>&gt;</span> wrote:
>
> <blockquote style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.8ex;border-left: 1.0px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left: 1.0ex;">
> <div><br/>
> &nbsp;</div>
>
> <div>
> <div>
> <div>Dear openstreetmappers :)
> <div>&nbsp;</div>
>
> <div>I&#39;m quite worried about the quality of maps for task 1018.</div>
>
> <div>Many of mappers, obviously, did not check the instructions or even the tutorials.&nbsp;<span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">People want to help, and that&#39;s awesome, but maybe validation should be done my more experienced and meticulous mappers.</span></div>
>
> <div>I&#39;ve seen mappers validating more that 10 areas in less than an hour, and those areas still contain many errors : clusters of buildings mapped as one, landuse=residential area used for clusters of nothing more than 1 or 2 buildings, many streams seen as footpath, many paths in the middle of nowhere...&nbsp;</div>
>
> <div>Maybe instructions should contain some images to show clearly what is expected, and explain that the purpose of this map is to count each individual buildings and have roads and paths connected to them so buildings can be reached by humanitarian teams.</div>
>
> <div>Currently, most of my time on 1018 is to check validated areas because half of those areas are not correctly mapped.</div>
>
> <div>&nbsp;</div>
>
> <div>Paul</div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </blockquote>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> <br/>
> _______________________________________________<br/>
> HOT mailing list<br/>
> <a href="http://HOT@..." target="_blank">[hidden email]</a><br/>
> <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot</a><br/>
> &nbsp;</blockquote>
> </div>
> </div>
> _______________________________________________ HOT mailing list <a>[hidden email]</a> <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot</a></div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </blockquote>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> _______________________________________________ HOT mailing list [hidden email] <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot</a></div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div></div></body></html>
>
>

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Re: Worried about task 1018

Steve Bower
Barbara,
Sounds like you should determine what those 466 deleted elements were before saving your changeset. Which editor are you using? If you're using JOSM you can save your changes to a temporary file (File > Save as) to give yourself time to sort things out. If necessary you could abandon your changes (so as not to accidentally delete 466 elements) and use the local temporary saved file to check your work as you re-do the buildings for that tile.

Steve

On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 9:10 AM, Steve Bower <[hidden email]> wrote:
Sounds like you should determine what those 466 deleted elements were before saving your changeset. Which editor are you using? If you're using JOSM you can save your changes to a temporary file (File > Save as) to give yourself time to sort things out. If necessary you could abandon your changes (so as not to accidentally delete 466 elements) and use the local temporary saved file to check your work as you re-do the buildings for that tile.


On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 8:14 AM, piz <[hidden email]> wrote:
probably while editing you have changed/deleted something, and the system is telling what you are going to save

Roberto




~~~~~~~~ quote of the day ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"more beer!"
(Big Wednesday - 1978)



<snip> 

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Re: Worried about task 1018

Nick Allen-2
In reply to this post by Barbara Figge

Barbara,

Go ahead and upload.  Each rectangular buildings is 4 corners (nodes) and a connecting way.

Removing one building is at least 5 elements.

Worse case scenario is you upload and realise that you've made it worse and have to ask for a revert by someone.  I think that the need for a revert is very unlikely.

Hope this is in time.

Nick
(OSM=Tallguy)

dodgy didgits as using a phone with a spell chequer.

Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team Member

On 11 May 2015 12:53, "Barbara Figge" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello everyone!
As promided I continued mapping buildings today. I just right now wanted to save the changes (nearly 200 buildings, now I know why one should do it earlier...) and get a message" You are just to delete 466 elements, are you sure?" Surely I not want to delete these ones but also I want to save my 200 buildings... Sonmeone here who knows what I did or what I can do now? It's again task 1018, #2777.
Thank your very much and greetings!
Barbara
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 09. Mai 2015 um 18:22 Uhr
Von: "Barbara Figge" <[hidden email]>
An: "john whelan" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Betreff: Re: [HOT] Worried about task 1018
Thanks for the words and information, so I will continue mapping buildings!
Greetings,
Barbara
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 09. Mai 2015 um 18:08 Uhr
Von: "john whelan" <[hidden email]>
An: "Barbara Figge" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Pierre Béland" <[hidden email]>, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Betreff: Re: Re: [HOT] Worried about task 1018
Pierre says it best but my thoughts follow.

To me the unsquared buildings are not a major issue in Nepal.  Within a tile a JOSM user can select buildings, then select an unsquared one remember the user select buildings once more then square all the buildings for that user in one keystroke.
 
As a beginner I suggest you don't correct odd areas, let someone else do the dirty deed, it saves having upset users and sometimes its just a matter of someone forgetting to tag it and often an experienced mapper can glance at it and give it a tag.
 
Paths and tracks unless its very clear I stay away from these in Nepal and I'm fairly experienced.  There are a number of terraces, the land can be quite steep so even though two ends of a path may look close together reality is its a long drop between the two.
 
For the moment I'd just add buildings, if you can manage to use JOSM and the building_tool plugin, you'll need the remote control plugin as well you'll find it's very easy to use and produces squared buildings correctly tagged and we have a lot of buildings to add.
 
Cheerio John
 
On 9 May 2015 at 11:12, Barbara Figge <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi to everyone,
I am one of the beginners of the last weeks, since last friday I mapped - mostly buildings (and mostly unsquared, I am one of them, too), tried some paths. I try to read the mailing list notes in between, I started with the mapgive things before first mapping, I read the instructions before starting, I did not validate and though these mistakes happened. But I am learning a lot.
Currently I am a little irritated about all the mistakes one can make and so I made up my mind not to stop mapping, but to stay on the safe side of the street: mapping buildings, and after I noticed the importance of buildings being squared, squaring my and the buildings of others.
Now there are some questions left: in the tile I worked in there are some areas without description (and no bulding or something else to see)- shall I delete them or do they have a special reason I overread in the mailing list conversation?
There are a lot of mapped buildings, where the symbol is some meters away from the building. Shall I correct or is it okay?
And: is there a possibility to go back to a tile I worked on by searching the number or must I search inside the map?
Best wishes and: as far as I can see from my small desk, a lot of people are doing great work!
Barbara
barbaraulrike in osm
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 09. Mai 2015 um 15:11 Uhr
Von: "john whelan" <[hidden email]>
An: "Pierre Béland" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Betreff: Re: [HOT] Worried about task 1018
I think I'm moderately experienced in mapping.  In West Africa I'm very comfortable validating, in Nepal I'm happy I know what a building looks like but paths, streams etc I'm not so comfortable with, there is a lot of distracting detail on the images.  Do I validate and clean up the building and tag side?  Or just add a few more buildings?
 
Thoughts?
 
Thanks John
 
On 9 May 2015 at 08:27, Pierre Béland <pierzenh@...> wrote:
We have to adapt to an awesome contribution with this Nepal emergency. We need more people. At the same time, we need to adapt in various ways to crowdsourcing as we see various problems arizing.
 
I also opened a ticket. This would be for the validators to prioritize validating first for the less experienced. A checkbox could let show only tiles selected by less experienced contributors.
 
regard
 
Pierre
 

De : Severin Menard <severin.menard@...>
À : Extra Paul <paulokoko@...>
Cc : "hot@..." <hot@...>
Envoyé le : Samedi 9 mai 2015 7h49
Objet : Re: [HOT] Worried about task 1018
 
Hi all,
 
I understand your worry Paul, and have the same experience of unvalidating tasks. I put clear comments for the people to know why. There is no offense I hope, everyone has been a beginner once and learning and improving is part of the motivation with OSM, IMHO.
I just suggested this change in the asking Manager that should prevent in the future the fact that tiles are validated by beginners:
https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/issues/598, titled: Validate button only for mappers who clicked previously on Edit with JOSM. 
I also hope iD will have in the future not only a building mapping tool, but also (as mappers may not use the building tool) an automatic proposition to square or round the shape that has just been traced as soon as a building tag is chosen (GitHub issue: https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2624).
 
The tools and the documentation apart, we also need to organize and exchange between us the people: who is interested in validation checking meaning also providing feedback or monitoring beginners? Basically you need to be a proficient user of JOSM and having a lot of edits (not less than with 4-5 zeros, I would say)
It takes a bit of time but it is valuable and a nice way to interact. My hello to Suzan Reed who asked me  directly for monitoring her tasks.
We have a list (thanks to Pascal Neis!) of the beginners from the start of the Activation, some are drive-bys (typically only 1 day of mapping, a few edits) and others more to super committed mappers. I have started a spreadsheet for those who would like to monitor these committed mappers.
 
Sincerely,
 
Severin
 
On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 10:10 AM, Extra Paul <paulokoko@...> wrote:

 
Dear openstreetmappers :)
 
I'm quite worried about the quality of maps for task 1018.
Many of mappers, obviously, did not check the instructions or even the tutorials. People want to help, and that's awesome, but maybe validation should be done my more experienced and meticulous mappers.
I've seen mappers validating more that 10 areas in less than an hour, and those areas still contain many errors : clusters of buildings mapped as one, landuse=residential area used for clusters of nothing more than 1 or 2 buildings, many streams seen as footpath, many paths in the middle of nowhere... 
Maybe instructions should contain some images to show clearly what is expected, and explain that the purpose of this map is to count each individual buildings and have roads and paths connected to them so buildings can be reached by humanitarian teams.
Currently, most of my time on 1018 is to check validated areas because half of those areas are not correctly mapped.
 
Paul

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