amenity=faculty?

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amenity=faculty?

Tagging mailing list
Universities may have faculties, that often deserved to be mapped separately.

For example university may take a large area, possibly disjointed area across the city
but Faculty of dentistry, Faculty of forestry, Faculty of mathematics etc may be
possible to be mapped as an area/node.

Currently typical way to do that is to either
- map name on building
- create fake amenity=university with amenity=university

It seems to me that amenity=faculty would be useful.

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Re: amenity=faculty?

Philip Barnes
On Tuesday, 4 February 2020, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:

> Universities may have faculties, that often deserved to be mapped separately.
>
> For example university may take a large area, possibly disjointed area across the city
> but Faculty of dentistry, Faculty of forestry, Faculty of mathematics etc may be
> possible to be mapped as an area/node.
>
> Currently typical way to do that is to either
> - map name on building
> - create fake amenity=university with amenity=university
>
> It seems to me that amenity=faculty would be useful.
>
Or university=faculty and keep the amenity tag for the overall university, on the relation if it multi-site.

Phil (trigpoint)
--
Sent from my Sailfish device
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Re: amenity=faculty?

Tagging mailing list
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On 04/02/2020 16:03, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:

> Universities may have faculties, that often deserved to be mapped separately.
>
> For example university may take a large area, possibly disjointed area across the city
> but Faculty of dentistry, Faculty of forestry, Faculty of mathematics etc may be
> possible to be mapped as an area/node.
>
> Currently typical way to do that is to either
> - map name on building
> - create fake amenity=university with amenity=university
>
> It seems to me that amenity=faculty would be useful.

But faculty is a subset of university. The primary tag is already used
as amenity=university

Faculty=* is already in use.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Duniversity#Faculties_and_departments

Cheers
DaveF


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Re: amenity=faculty?

Paul Allen
In reply to this post by Philip Barnes
On Tue, 4 Feb 2020 at 16:31, Philip Barnes <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Tuesday, 4 February 2020, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:

> It seems to me that amenity=faculty would be useful.
>
Or university=faculty and keep the amenity tag for the overall university, on the relation if it multi-site.

I'm not happy with amenity=faculty (what's it a faculty of?).  I have no real
argument with university=faculty as a subkey of amenity=university but it
appears that it's fairly common to add faculty=* as a subkey instead:

--
Paul


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Re: amenity=faculty?

Greg Troxel-2
In reply to this post by Tagging mailing list
Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]> writes:

> Universities may have faculties, that often deserved to be mapped separately.
>
> For example university may take a large area, possibly disjointed area across the city
> but Faculty of dentistry, Faculty of forestry, Faculty of mathematics etc may be
> possible to be mapped as an area/node.
>
> Currently typical way to do that is to either
> - map name on building
> - create fake amenity=university with amenity=university
>
> It seems to me that amenity=faculty would be useful.

Perhaps, but beware that in US English, this is bizarre usage.  Faculty
refers to the set of people that are professors, not a place, and not a
subdivision of a university.

As an example, one well-known University has within in
  School of Science
  School of Engineering
  School of Architecture of Planning
  School of Humanities, Arts, and Social Sciences.
  School of Management
and
  College of Computing

I'm sure other universities contain within them colleges, and I suspect
"school" is fairly common.

Really my point is that "Faculty of mathematics" is going to be
confusing to en_US speakers.  I have no idea if it's used in en_GB, but
I've never heard of it.


To your real point, it does seem make sense to have a tag for a
subdivision of a university.   But, often these sub-parts are
administrative and not physical.

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Re: amenity=faculty?

Tagging mailing list
In reply to this post by Philip Barnes



4 Feb 2020, 17:30 by [hidden email]:
On Tuesday, 4 February 2020, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:
Universities may have faculties, that often deserved to be mapped separately.

For example university may take a large area, possibly disjointed area across the city
but Faculty of dentistry, Faculty of forestry, Faculty of mathematics etc may be
possible to be mapped as an area/node.

Currently typical way to do that is to either
- map name on building
- create fake amenity=university with amenity=university

It seems to me that amenity=faculty would be useful.
Or university=faculty and keep the amenity tag for the overall university, on the relation if it multi-site
So you purpose one area with an
amenity=university (maybe multipolygon).
And nodes/areas with just university=faculty?

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Re: amenity=faculty?

Sebastian Dicke
Some chairs of faculties have separate locations, too.

Regards

Sebastian

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Re: amenity=faculty?

Paul Allen
In reply to this post by Greg Troxel-2
On Tue, 4 Feb 2020 at 16:45, Greg Troxel <[hidden email]> wrote:

Perhaps, but beware that in US English, this is bizarre usage.  Faculty
refers to the set of people that are professors, not a place, and not a
subdivision of a university.

But in British English it more normally refers to a division of a university.  The
US appears to use meaning 1 of https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/faculty
whilst the British use meaning 2.  See, for example,

--
Paul




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Re: amenity=faculty?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Greg Troxel-2
Am Di., 4. Feb. 2020 um 17:45 Uhr schrieb Greg Troxel <[hidden email]>:
Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]> writes:

> Universities may have faculties, that often deserved to be mapped separately.


+1, I agree with this. Also institutes, departments, and whatever subdivision there may be which can be associated to some space.


To your real point, it does seem make sense to have a tag for a
subdivision of a university.   But, often these sub-parts are
administrative and not physical.


Sometimes, these may be only administrative (and we would probably not create their own osm objects, but might want to add them as tag properties) , but there are also entities (parts of universities) which occupy "their own space", with dedicated buildings and grounds. We do not have documented standards for more detail then "university", while the parts can be very big and do have properties (like the field of endeavor) which can be standardized and are fundamental to know when you look for something (we are currently mostly relying on name).

Looking at the tags in use:

50584 amenity=university (no common combination that would be useful for us here)

773 uses of faculty=* with values: School of Medicine, engineering, Facultad␣de␣Química,␣UNAM, Facultad␣de␣Ciencias,␣UNAM, law (20)

1138 uses of university=* with the values specifying parts of a university rather than a type of university: institute, lecture_hall, faculty (91), seminar_room, student_association

there is also a department tag which is used 51 times in combination with faculty, and has useful values like mathematics (12), computer_science (11), physics (11), Chemistry (9), 09: Chemie (7), etc

for institutes there is a key with 40 uses.


 
Perhaps, but beware that in US English, this is bizarre usage.  Faculty
refers to the set of people that are professors, not a place, and not a
subdivision of a university.

As an example, one well-known University has within in
  School of Science
  School of Engineering
  School of Architecture of Planning
  School of Humanities, Arts, and Social Sciences.
  School of Management
and
  College of Computing

I'm sure other universities contain within them colleges, and I suspect
"school" is fairly common.


"school" does not have values that seem to refer to universities so far: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/school#values
IMHO it is not a good term as tag in osm for parts of universities, because it could easily be misunderstood.

My preference would be "institute" for institutes, "faculty" for faculties (if useful) and maybe the department as the operator? The details will depend on the national and local situation.

Cheers
Martin


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Re: amenity=faculty?

Jarek Piórkowski
In reply to this post by Greg Troxel-2
On Tue, 4 Feb 2020 at 11:44, Greg Troxel <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]> writes:
> > Universities may have faculties, that often deserved to be mapped separately.
> > ...
> > It seems to me that amenity=faculty would be useful.
>
> Perhaps, but beware that in US English, this is bizarre usage.  Faculty
> refers to the set of people that are professors, not a place, and not a
> subdivision of a university.
> ...
>
> I'm sure other universities contain within them colleges, and I suspect
> "school" is fairly common.
>
> Really my point is that "Faculty of mathematics" is going to be
> confusing to en_US speakers.  I have no idea if it's used in en_GB, but
> I've never heard of it.

As a counterpoint, at my en_CA university established in 1957 we did
have faculties in the sense used by Mateusz. Schools were generally
ordered lower than faculties: School of Architecture was part of
Faculty of Engineering. Most sub-parts of faculties were named
Departments.

--Jarek

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Re: amenity=faculty?

Lionel Giard
Each country (and maybe university) have different subdivision, and sometimes even inside one university there are multiple different subdivision co-existing : for example in Belgium i know at least a few universities that use two separate division at the same time : 
  • for the education part : Université > Faculty > School ;
  • for the research part : University > Sector > Institute.
All of these can overlap. One professor can be part of one (or multiple) school and institute at the same time. And for buildings, an institute can be spread across multiple building, sharing space with a school ... It is not simple and purely administrative as there isn't always an unique spatial localisation for each institute or school. At the moment, i sometimes see the institute or school name on the building if it is generally located in one place. I have also seen many research institute tagged on a node with "office=research" as they are well known publicly, but again that's not always the case.

Thus, it seems difficult to find "one" subdivision that will always work worldwide ?! :-) Maybe that we should keep a generic word and allow everything in it (like subdivision=* with the name of "School", "Institute", "College",... if relevant) ? 

Le mer. 5 févr. 2020 à 03:24, Jarek Piórkowski <[hidden email]> a écrit :
On Tue, 4 Feb 2020 at 11:44, Greg Troxel <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]> writes:
> > Universities may have faculties, that often deserved to be mapped separately.
> > ...
> > It seems to me that amenity=faculty would be useful.
>
> Perhaps, but beware that in US English, this is bizarre usage.  Faculty
> refers to the set of people that are professors, not a place, and not a
> subdivision of a university.
> ...
>
> I'm sure other universities contain within them colleges, and I suspect
> "school" is fairly common.
>
> Really my point is that "Faculty of mathematics" is going to be
> confusing to en_US speakers.  I have no idea if it's used in en_GB, but
> I've never heard of it.

As a counterpoint, at my en_CA university established in 1957 we did
have faculties in the sense used by Mateusz. Schools were generally
ordered lower than faculties: School of Architecture was part of
Faculty of Engineering. Most sub-parts of faculties were named
Departments.

--Jarek

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Re: amenity=faculty?

voschix
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Apart from technicalities, there is another problem. Universities in different countries are subdivide in dìfferent ways: faculties, departments, institutes, colleges. Except for campus-type universities they are often distributed over an entire city.
I have not looked into this in detail, but this seems to me a strong case for site relations.

On Tue, 4 Feb 2020 at 17:05, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:
Universities may have faculties, that often deserved to be mapped separately.

For example university may take a large area, possibly disjointed area across the city
but Faculty of dentistry, Faculty of forestry, Faculty of mathematics etc may be
possible to be mapped as an area/node.

Currently typical way to do that is to either
- map name on building
- create fake amenity=university with amenity=university

It seems to me that amenity=faculty would be useful.
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Re: amenity=faculty?

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> Il giorno 5 feb 2020, alle ore 11:53, Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
>
> I have not looked into this in detail, but this seems to me a strong case for site relations.


I don’t see how site relations would solve the different levels of structure in different countries/universities.

Site relations could solve the problem of connecting things added as nodes only, on the other hand this would slow down more detailed mapping as areas (which are generally preferable for everything with some size IMHO, even if approximate).

When a faculty is distributed over several locations, it could be represented as multipolygons, or even just with a faculty tag in combination with other tags (like name of the university it is part of).

I’m not dismissing the idea of site relations for this in general, but there isn’t a strong case in favor of them either (semantically, I would see a faculty at 2 locations as 2 “sites”).

Cheers Martin
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Re: amenity=faculty?

Graeme Fitzpatrick
You also have the problem of different Schools sharing the same building.

With the Uni I'm familiar with, in one case you have the Clinical Sciences building 1, which holds 3 lecture theatres, plus the School of Nursing & the School of Pharmacy.

It's currently mapped as "G16 - Clinical Science 1", which is how the Uni refers to it.

& that Uni, incidentally, is spread over 5 separate campuses across 2 cities!

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: amenity=faculty?

Lionel Giard
Site relation are more used to put the tag "amenity=university" and all the information only 1 time for the whole university when it is spread across a city or multiple sites. This site relation equal to the amenity=university area under a campus that's all grouped into one place. Otherwise, if you query the data, you'll see many amenity=university (which means multiple universities) that are exactly the same which is wrong. But i don't see how it solve the subdivision either. 

I also map the building name or ref as what the university use in general, and put node "POI" for school or institute if they are officially located there in one place (or if you could argue that their main office is there). 


Le mer. 5 févr. 2020 à 22:55, Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> a écrit :
You also have the problem of different Schools sharing the same building.

With the Uni I'm familiar with, in one case you have the Clinical Sciences building 1, which holds 3 lecture theatres, plus the School of Nursing & the School of Pharmacy.

It's currently mapped as "G16 - Clinical Science 1", which is how the Uni refers to it.

& that Uni, incidentally, is spread over 5 separate campuses across 2 cities!

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: amenity=faculty?

Jmapb
In reply to this post by Lionel Giard
On 2/5/2020 4:36 AM, Lionel Giard wrote:

> Thus, it seems difficult to find "one" subdivision that will always
> work worldwide ?! :-) Maybe that we should keep a generic word and
> allow everything in it (like subdivision=* with the name of "School",
> "Institute", "College",... if relevant) ?

I agree the various terms I've seen (faculty, department, school,
college, institute, program(me), division, educational unit) don't seem
to line up worldwide or even within some small regions.

A generic term, with the site-specific term listed as part of the name=*
tag, seems like a good solution. I'd probably be happier with department
or division as the generic term, but subdivision might work.

(In discussions like these I can't help thinking about the various
proposals for a unifying education=* tag, and how that might affect the
tagging of sort of hierarchy. The most recent one, currently "under
way", is
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_Features/Education_Reform_Alternative
.)

Jason


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Re: amenity=faculty?

Jmapb
In reply to this post by Lionel Giard
On 2/5/2020 6:21 PM, Lionel Giard wrote:
> Site relation are more used to put the tag "amenity=university" and
> all the information only 1 time for the whole university when it is
> spread across a city or multiple sites. This site relation equal to
> the amenity=university area under a campus that's all grouped into one
> place. Otherwise, if you query the data, you'll see many
> amenity=university (which means multiple universities) that are
> exactly the same which is wrong.

I would generally just use a multipolygon relation for this. Any
contiguous portions of university campus are mapped as closed ways with
role "outer." Any isolated university buildings are also added to the
relation with role "outer". All the top-level university tags, including
amenity=university, go on the relation. (But it can get tricky if some
university office or department occupies an undefined portion of a
particular building that is otherwise not controlled by the university
-- I tend to just use nodes tagged with name/operator/website and leave
these out of the relation, which is not ideal.)

J


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Re: amenity=faculty?

Joseph Eisenberg
> ... put the tag "amenity=university" and all the information only 1 time for the whole university

> I would generally just use a multipolygon relation for this

+1 for the common multipolygon relation, not type=site.

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Re: amenity=faculty?

Lionel Giard
One problem with multipolygon relation is that by definition you can't put node it those and you can't put contiguous buildings either. How do you group "node + polygons + multipolygon" (some buildings are a multipolygon already where the hole is not part of the university ^_^) with other thing than a site relation ? If you have any suggestion feel free to share as i never find anything else (and we already discussed it in the past on this mailing list, always to say "okay it is the best fit for the time being"). :-)

You can't put big polygon around these things either, as many of these "city university" don't own the ground around the building (they are really in the middle of the city spread across it) and as you said, many parts are only an "office" in a building shared with other companies or services (so only nodes in OSM). 

Le jeu. 6 févr. 2020 à 02:58, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> a écrit :
> ... put the tag "amenity=university" and all the information only 1 time for the whole university

> I would generally just use a multipolygon relation for this

+1 for the common multipolygon relation, not type=site.

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Re: amenity=faculty?

dieterdreist


Am Do., 6. Feb. 2020 um 10:16 Uhr schrieb Lionel Giard <[hidden email]>:
One problem with multipolygon relation is that by definition you can't put node it those and you can't put contiguous buildings either. How do you group "node + polygons + multipolygon" (some buildings are a multipolygon already where the hole is not part of the university ^_^) with other thing than a site relation ?


It would likely be wrong to cut the hole of a building out from a faculty. You would not add the multipolygon relation to the faculty (if there really is just a building a no grounds around it to add), but the outer way(s) that form the building.
For buildings and grounds and even for building parts that are currently mapped as nodes, it doesn't seem disproportionate to ask for mapping as a polygon before they can added to a faculty or department, or do you have any examples for things that shall make up a university subpart which are better represented as nodes?

Cheers
Martin



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