amenity=tourist_bus_parking

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amenity=tourist_bus_parking

voschix
I have just detected the wiki page "amenity=tourist_bus_parking"
It has so far only 16 uses (including one by myself a few minutes ago)
I am not happy with this new tag. Agreed, we have the tags amenity=bicycle_parking and amenity=motorcycle_parking, but they have been with OSM for years, whereas the tourist_bus parking is new (from Feb 2019) and has so far very few uses.

My feeling is that we should not add more humanities along that line, like RV_parking, hgv_parking, snowmobile_parking, cargo_bike_parking and so on, but try to think,of something better.
In particular I would like some tagging scheme that allows you to identify a parking facility, and within that same facility (which carries the name) the parking sub-facilities for cars,  buses, HGVs, motorcycles, ...That would make more sense.The parking I have just inserted has two separate areas and separate entrances for cars and tourist buses, but it has only one name. Another frequent situation are motorway stations where parking is usually split into cars, busses, and HGVs.
Hopefully it's just my ignorance and someone else has already implemented the prefect tagging scheme somewhere.

Volker

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Re: amenity=tourist_bus_parking

Tom Pfeifer
I agree, I had the problem on motorway service areas, where parking is segregated between HGVs and
cars. I solved it with access tags for the respective vehicle class.

On 04.01.2020 22:10, Volker Schmidt wrote:

> I have just detected the wiki page "amenity=tourist_bus_parking"
> It has so far only 16 uses (including one by myself a few minutes ago)
> I am not happy with this new tag. Agreed, we have the tags amenity=bicycle_parking and
> amenity=motorcycle_parking, but they have been with OSM for years, whereas the tourist_bus parking
> is new (from Feb 2019) and has so far very few uses.
>
> My feeling is that we should not add more humanities along that line, like RV_parking, hgv_parking,
> snowmobile_parking, cargo_bike_parking and so on, but try to think,of something better.
> In particular I would like some tagging scheme that allows you to identify a parking facility, and
> within that same facility (which carries the name) the parking sub-facilities for cars,  buses,
> HGVs, motorcycles, ...That would make more sense.The parking I have just inserted has two separate
> areas and separate entrances for cars and tourist buses, but it has only one name. Another frequent
> situation are motorway stations where parking is usually split into cars, busses, and HGVs.
> Hopefully it's just my ignorance and someone else has already implemented the prefect tagging scheme
> somewhere.


tom

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Re: amenity=tourist_bus_parking

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by voschix


sent from a phone

> On 4. Jan 2020, at 22:12, Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> My feeling is that we should not add more humanities along that line, like RV_parking, hgv_parking, snowmobile_parking, cargo_bike_parking and so on, but try to think,of something better.
> In particular I would like some tagging scheme that allows you to identify a parking facility, and within that same facility (which carries the name) the parking sub-facilities for cars,  buses, HGVs, motorcycles, ...That would make more sense.


it depends. When a parking has dedicated subareas (parking lot/s / groups of them) it doesn’t seem perfect to tag them as tI don’t see a problem with RV parking (apart the abbreviation, but it’s generally introduced in OpenStreetMap as in real life), if they exist (as RV only parking), and I don’t see a benefit if we’d tag all parkings the same and shift meaningful principal distinctions to a second level.


Ciao Martin
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Re: amenity=tourist_bus_parking

Florimond Berthoux
In reply to this post by voschix
Hi,

Real case in Paris, we have : bicycle parking, motorcycle parking,
bicycle-motorcycle parking mixed, free floating (dock less)
scooter-bicycle parking, and cargo bike parking.
How can I map that with only motorcycle_parking and bicycle_parking
tags ??? I can't properly.
Using access tags is the good way to go, so we can use
[vehicle]=yes/no/designated.
Designated is to explicitly say that the place is specifically made for them.

In the point of view of a data consumer, adding tags just for each
(sub) use case is a maintenance nightmare, and most will not update
there software for each case.
If you render a map for instance, the first step would be to render
every parking area the same way, then may be you'd go into detail and
render each type of them.

Le sam. 4 janv. 2020 à 22:12, Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]> a écrit :

>
> I have just detected the wiki page "amenity=tourist_bus_parking"
> It has so far only 16 uses (including one by myself a few minutes ago)
> I am not happy with this new tag. Agreed, we have the tags amenity=bicycle_parking and amenity=motorcycle_parking, but they have been with OSM for years, whereas the tourist_bus parking is new (from Feb 2019) and has so far very few uses.
>
> My feeling is that we should not add more humanities along that line, like RV_parking, hgv_parking, snowmobile_parking, cargo_bike_parking and so on, but try to think,of something better.
> In particular I would like some tagging scheme that allows you to identify a parking facility, and within that same facility (which carries the name) the parking sub-facilities for cars,  buses, HGVs, motorcycles, ...That would make more sense.The parking I have just inserted has two separate areas and separate entrances for cars and tourist buses, but it has only one name. Another frequent situation are motorway stations where parking is usually split into cars, busses, and HGVs.
> Hopefully it's just my ignorance and someone else has already implemented the prefect tagging scheme somewhere.
>
> Volker
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



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Florimond Berthoux

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Re: amenity=tourist_bus_parking

dieterdreist
is “designated” implying that other vehicles cannot (legally or physically?) use the parking, or that there are specific measures so that the designated vehicles fit perfectly into the fixtures?

Cheers Martin
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Re: amenity=tourist_bus_parking

Florimond Berthoux
Le dim. 5 janv. 2020 à 18:41, Martin Koppenhoefer
<[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> is “designated” implying that other vehicles cannot (legally or physically?) use the parking, or that there are specific measures so that the designated vehicles fit perfectly into the fixtures?

No, that would depend on the other access keys, I think the wiki is
clear https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:access%3Ddesignated
"The value designated is not meant to imply that OpenStreetMap
access=* permissions have been automatically "designated" only to that
transport mode!"

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Re: amenity=tourist_bus_parking

Markus-5
In reply to this post by voschix
On Sat, 4 Jan 2020 at 22:12, Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> In particular I would like some tagging scheme that allows you to identify a parking facility, and within that same facility (which carries the name) the parking sub-facilities for cars,  buses, HGVs, motorcycles, ...That would make more sense.

I agree that the current tagging scheme doesn't work well with
mixed-type parking facilities.

However, a new tagging scheme would likely mean that we need a new tag
for parking facilities as i don't think that an automated edit (e.g.
changing access=* to motorcar=*) on over 3 million amenity=parking
would be accepted.

As for the areas within a parking facility, we could use something
similar to building:part: for example amenity=parking_facility:part if
the parking facility is tagged amenity=parking_facility.

Regards

Markus

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Re: amenity=tourist_bus_parking

Markus-5
In reply to this post by Florimond Berthoux
On Sun, 5 Jan 2020 at 17:29, Florimond Berthoux
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Using access tags is the good way to go, so we can use
> [vehicle]=yes/no/designated.
> Designated is to explicitly say that the place is specifically made for them.

How would you tag a designated car park for customers only? designated
seems to be orthogonal to yes/no/private/customers/visitors....

Regards

Markus

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Re: amenity=tourist_bus_parking

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Florimond Berthoux


sent from a phone

> On 5. Jan 2020, at 20:18, Florimond Berthoux <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> is “designated” implying that other vehicles cannot (legally or physically?) use the parking, or that there are specific measures so that the designated vehicles fit perfectly into the fixtures?
>
> No, that would depend on the other access keys, I think the wiki is
> clear https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:access%3Ddesignated
> "The value designated is not meant to imply that OpenStreetMap
> access=* permissions have been automatically "designated" only to that
> transport mode!"


can you explain the difference of cargo_bike=yes and cargo_bike=designated? Can these occur together with bicycle=no? Are there cases of the other way round (bicycle=yes with cargo_bike=no)?

Cheers Martin
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Re: amenity=tourist_bus_parking

voschix
We had this discussion recently regardng parking spaces. The cargobike vs bike is the same as the car vs motorcycle access when it comes to parking spaces.

My approach in my foot-bicycle-vehicle-motor_vehicle world is:
x=yes means x is allowed and nothing is said about other means of transportation.
x=yes AND y=yes means x and y are allowed and nothing is said about other means of transportation.
x=designated means access only for x and and there is a sign, ore something equivalent, stating this 
x=designated AND y=designated means access only for x and for y and there is a sign, ore something equivalent, stating this

Volker


On Sun, 5 Jan 2020 at 20:37, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


sent from a phone

> On 5. Jan 2020, at 20:18, Florimond Berthoux <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> is “designated” implying that other vehicles cannot (legally or physically?) use the parking, or that there are specific measures so that the designated vehicles fit perfectly into the fixtures?
>
> No, that would depend on the other access keys, I think the wiki is
> clear https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:access%3Ddesignated
> "The value designated is not meant to imply that OpenStreetMap
> access=* permissions have been automatically "designated" only to that
> transport mode!"


can you explain the difference of cargo_bike=yes and cargo_bike=designated? Can these occur together with bicycle=no? Are there cases of the other way round (bicycle=yes with cargo_bike=no)?

Cheers Martin
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Re: amenity=tourist_bus_parking

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 5. Jan 2020, at 23:22, Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> x=designated means access only for x and and there is a sign, ore something equivalent, stating this
> x=designated AND y=designated means access only for x and for y and there is a sign, ore something equivalent, stating this


sure, the reason why I was asking these questions is that people told me that cargo bike wasn’t a defined vehicle class in the French jurisdiction.
If you see a sign motor_vehicle=designated you know that a motorcycle and a motorcar are both permitted on the way.
IIRR the thread about cargo bicycle parking went dead without providing answers about implications or legalities, that’s why I was asking again.

Cheers Martin
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Re: amenity=tourist_bus_parking

Tagging mailing list
In reply to this post by Florimond Berthoux


On Jan 6, 2020, at 1:27 AM, Florimond Berthoux <[hidden email]> wrote:

I have just detected the wiki page "amenity=tourist_bus_parking"

Why is this it’s own amenity, instead of 

amenity=parking
bus=designated
access=customers

?

Many Service areas in Japan has an HGV/BUS parking lot with amenities for tour buses - should all those parking lots be retagged?

I really want to be able to tag specific uses and types of parking lots, but I think it is better left to a subkey (parking=*) to define them better, rather than having to make up new amenities for the same thing.

parking=tourism
parking=disabled
parking=loading_dock
parking=taxi
parking=waiting_lot
etc


Javbw

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Re: amenity=tourist_bus_parking

dieterdreist

Am Mo., 6. Jan. 2020 um 03:25 Uhr schrieb John Willis via Tagging <[hidden email]>:


On Jan 6, 2020, at 1:27 AM, Florimond Berthoux <[hidden email]> wrote:

I have just detected the wiki page "amenity=tourist_bus_parking"

Why is this it’s own amenity, instead of 

amenity=parking
bus=designated
access=customers


"bus" is about a bus acting as public service vehicle. *=designated does not exclude other means of transport: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:access%3Ddesignated
"The value designated is not meant to imply that OpenStreetMap access=* permissions have been automatically "designated" only to that transport mode! If an element is meant only to be used by specific designated transport methods (overriding whatever defaults may exist for that way), use access=no in addition of the *=designated value."

For a municipal tourist bus parking, who is "customers" referring to? Customers of what?

Cheers
Martin

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Re: amenity=tourist_bus_parking

Florimond Berthoux
In reply to this post by dieterdreist
Sorry I don't understand the point of the questions.
Legally a cargo bike is a bicycle (or a tricycle which is the same) in France.
But road laws (Code de la route) only apply on roads open to public
traffic in France so the diversity can be wider than the law.
And we don't tag the law in OSM.

Le lun. 6 janv. 2020 à 00:05, Martin Koppenhoefer
<[hidden email]> a écrit :

> > On 5. Jan 2020, at 23:22, Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > x=designated means access only for x and and there is a sign, ore something equivalent, stating this
> > x=designated AND y=designated means access only for x and for y and there is a sign, ore something equivalent, stating this
>
>
> sure, the reason why I was asking these questions is that people told me that cargo bike wasn’t a defined vehicle class in the French jurisdiction.
> If you see a sign motor_vehicle=designated you know that a motorcycle and a motorcar are both permitted on the way.
> IIRR the thread about cargo bicycle parking went dead without providing answers about implications or legalities, that’s why I was asking again.
>
> Cheers Martin

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Re: amenity=tourist_bus_parking

voschix
With access tags we "tag the law" (I like your experssion). Access tags are about legal access (unfortunately with some prominent exeptions, like wheelchair=yes|no).


On Tue, 7 Jan 2020 at 22:28, Florimond Berthoux <[hidden email]> wrote:
Sorry I don't understand the point of the questions.
Legally a cargo bike is a bicycle (or a tricycle which is the same) in France.
But road laws (Code de la route) only apply on roads open to public
traffic in France so the diversity can be wider than the law.
And we don't tag the law in OSM.

Le lun. 6 janv. 2020 à 00:05, Martin Koppenhoefer
<[hidden email]> a écrit :
> > On 5. Jan 2020, at 23:22, Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > x=designated means access only for x and and there is a sign, ore something equivalent, stating this
> > x=designated AND y=designated means access only for x and for y and there is a sign, ore something equivalent, stating this
>
>
> sure, the reason why I was asking these questions is that people told me that cargo bike wasn’t a defined vehicle class in the French jurisdiction.
> If you see a sign motor_vehicle=designated you know that a motorcycle and a motorcar are both permitted on the way.
> IIRR the thread about cargo bicycle parking went dead without providing answers about implications or legalities, that’s why I was asking again.
>
> Cheers Martin

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Re: amenity=tourist_bus_parking

Phake Nick
With all those different types of parking facilities, wouldn't it be easier to create some tag combinations like the following?
amenity=parking
parking=bus
bus=tourist_bus


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Re: amenity=tourist_bus_parking

marc marc
In reply to this post by Tagging mailing list
Le 06.01.20 à 03:24, John Willis via Tagging a écrit :
> parking=tourism
> parking=disabled
> parking=loading_dock
> parking=taxi
> parking=waiting_lot

that conflit with the current meaning :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:parking
parking=surface/underground/roof top would have looked better in the
location tag, but changing that is... too late, it's past Christmas :)
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Re: amenity=tourist_bus_parking

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Phake Nick

sent from a phone

> On 7. Jan 2020, at 23:10, Phake Nick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> amenity=parking
> parking=bus
> bus=tourist_bus


a tourist_bus is not a subtype of a “bus” in OpenStreetMap.

Cheers Martin
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Re: amenity=tourist_bus_parking

voschix
In reply to this post by marc marc
What about going back to the wiki and make use of the fact that amenity=parking_space can be used for this.
Make separate parking space areas for different vehicle types. Add parking entrances (at present restricted fto underground and multi-level car parks, but I acan see no reason ot to us ita lso for surface parking). Tie it together with a relation.





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Re: amenity=tourist_bus_parking

Andy Townsend


On 08/01/2020 10:14, Volker Schmidt wrote:
What about going back to the wiki and make use of the fact that amenity=parking_space can be used for this.
Make separate parking space areas for different vehicle types. Add parking entrances (at present restricted fto underground and multi-level car parks, but I acan see no reason ot to us ita lso for surface parking). Tie it together with a relation.


... and if anyone wants to look at the usage of that around the world, try here:

https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Pyw

(move the map to where you're interested in and hit "run").

Best Regards,

Andy



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