amenity=vending_machine/vending=bottle_return - operator=

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
25 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

amenity=vending_machine/vending=bottle_return - operator=

Tagging mailing list
Some bottle return vending machines are placed inside supermarket stores and give the user a discount coupon to redeem in-store when paying for their shopping. The supermarket chain may not own, empty or maintain the machine but it appears operator=* is already being used for this case. Should we continue and add it to additional tags?
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: amenity=vending_machine/vending=bottle_return - operator=

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 5. Jan 2020, at 13:39, Jake Edmonds via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Some bottle return vending machines are placed inside supermarket stores and give the user a discount coupon to redeem in-store when paying for their shopping. The supermarket chain may not own, empty or maintain the machine but it appears operator=* is already being used for this case. Should we continue and add it to additional tags?


I would characterize them completely differently, nothing is sold, and you don’t get a discount coupon but rather a receipt to get back your deposit. The term vending machine is misrepresenting these machines and should not be used.

Cheers Martin
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: amenity=vending_machine/vending=bottle_return - operator=

Colin Smale

On 2020-01-05 16:22, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

sent from a phone

I would characterize them completely differently, nothing is sold, and you don't get a discount coupon but rather a receipt to get back your deposit. The term vending machine is misrepresenting these machines and should not be used.

They are frequently called "reverse vending" machines - instead of the customer trading money for goods, they trade goods for money.
 
 

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: amenity=vending_machine/vending=bottle_return - operator=

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

On 5. Jan 2020, at 16:46, Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:

The term vending machine is misrepresenting these machines and should not be used.

They are frequently called "reverse vending" machines - instead of the customer trading money for goods, they trade goods for money.
 


clearly „reverse vending machine“ is a completely different term/concept than „vending machine“, although it plays with the idea of using the same words and change the meaning by adding „reverse“ to it


Cheers Martin 

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: amenity=vending_machine/vending=bottle_return - operator=

Colin Smale

On 2020-01-05 21:02, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone

On 5. Jan 2020, at 16:46, Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:

The term vending machine is misrepresenting these machines and should not be used.

They are frequently called "reverse vending" machines - instead of the customer trading money for goods, they trade goods for money.

 
clearly „reverse vending machine" is a completely different term/concept than „vending machine", although it plays with the idea of using the same words and change the meaning by adding „reverse" to it
 
It is also a clearly related concept. I hereby propose:
   amenity=reverse_vending_machine
   reverse_vending=bottle_return
Problem solved.
 
 

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: amenity=vending_machine/vending=bottle_return - operator=

Tagging mailing list
Regardless of whether the main tag should be changed or not, on second thought, I think the following tags should be used:

brand= To indicate how the service is branded, for example, a recycling/bottle return company or the name of the super market where the machine is located
Located inside and branded as Fresh (a supermarket), the receipt can only be exchanged in Fresh.
Located outside and branded as Return and Earn (a government scheme), retail vouchers, PayPal an e-vouchers are available.
operator= To indicate who maintains/services the machine, possibly the same as the brand, maybe hard to find out.
breweries= To indicate the brands of containers that the machine accepts 

On 5 Jan 2020, at 21:43, Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 2020-01-05 21:02, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone

On 5. Jan 2020, at 16:46, Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:

The term vending machine is misrepresenting these machines and should not be used.

They are frequently called "reverse vending" machines - instead of the customer trading money for goods, they trade goods for money.

 
clearly „reverse vending machine" is a completely different term/concept than „vending machine", although it plays with the idea of using the same words and change the meaning by adding „reverse" to it
 
It is also a clearly related concept. I hereby propose:
   amenity=reverse_vending_machine
   reverse_vending=bottle_return
Problem solved.
 
 
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Fwd: amenity=vending_machine/vending=bottle_return - operator=

Tagging mailing list
On third thought, breweries isn’t appropriate because not all reverse vending machine is for beer bottles, or even bottles at all. 

If something like brands_accepted existed, that would be fine. I’d rather not create something new. 


amenity=reverse_vending_machine
reverse_vending=bottle_return
 
Machines may take more than one type of item. Some here take bottles and bottle creates. Some take metal cans. 

Reverse vending machines are not the only vending machine type that’s not technically a vending machine, although you are exchanging one thing for another. 

I propose
amenity=vending_machine
vending=reverse_vending (or keep bottle_return as its already in use)
recycling:glass_bottles=yes/no (already is use)
recycling:<other types>=yes/no
Plus another optional tag to dictate which brands the machine takes
Sent from Jake Edmonds' iPhone

Begin forwarded message:

From: Jake Edmonds via Tagging <[hidden email]>
Date: 6 January 2020 at 07:36:52 CET
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" <[hidden email]>
Cc: Jake Edmonds <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re:  [Tagging] amenity=vending_machine/vending=bottle_return - operator=
Reply-To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" <[hidden email]>

Regardless of whether the main tag should be changed or not, on second thought, I think the following tags should be used:

brand= To indicate how the service is branded, for example, a recycling/bottle return company or the name of the super market where the machine is located
Located inside and branded as Fresh (a supermarket), the receipt can only be exchanged in Fresh.
Located outside and branded as Return and Earn (a government scheme), retail vouchers, PayPal an e-vouchers are available.
operator= To indicate who maintains/services the machine, possibly the same as the brand, maybe hard to find out.
breweries= To indicate the brands of containers that the machine accepts 

On 5 Jan 2020, at 21:43, Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 2020-01-05 21:02, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone

On 5. Jan 2020, at 16:46, Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:

The term vending machine is misrepresenting these machines and should not be used.

They are frequently called "reverse vending" machines - instead of the customer trading money for goods, they trade goods for money.

 
clearly „reverse vending machine" is a completely different term/concept than „vending machine", although it plays with the idea of using the same words and change the meaning by adding „reverse" to it
 
It is also a clearly related concept. I hereby propose:
  amenity=reverse_vending_machine
   reverse_vending=bottle_return
Problem solved.
 
 
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fwd: amenity=vending_machine/vending=bottle_return - operator=

Marc Gemis
> amenity=reverse_vending_machine
> reverse_vending=bottle_return
>
> Machines may take more than one type of item. Some here take bottles and bottle creates. Some take metal cans.
>
> Reverse vending machines are not the only vending machine type that’s not technically a vending machine, although you are exchanging one thing for another.
>
> I propose
> amenity=vending_machine
> vending=reverse_vending (or keep bottle_return as its already in use)
> recycling:glass_bottles=yes/no (already is use)
> recycling:<other types>=yes/no

Since you use recycling tags, why not use amenity=recycling with some
subtags to indicate that you get money. Why stick to vending machine?

regards

m.

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fwd: amenity=vending_machine/vending=bottle_return - operator=

dieterdreist


Am Fr., 10. Jan. 2020 um 08:58 Uhr schrieb Marc Gemis <[hidden email]>:
> amenity=reverse_vending_machine
> reverse_vending=bottle_return
>
> Machines may take more than one type of item. Some here take bottles and bottle creates. Some take metal cans.
>
> Reverse vending machines are not the only vending machine type that’s not technically a vending machine, although you are exchanging one thing for another.
>
> I propose
> amenity=vending_machine
> vending=reverse_vending (or keep bottle_return as its already in use)
> recycling:glass_bottles=yes/no (already is use)
> recycling:<other types>=yes/no

Since you use recycling tags, why not use amenity=recycling with some
subtags to indicate that you get money. Why stick to vending machine?


sometimes (e.g. common typology in German shops) you can add both, plastic bottles for recycling and reusable bottles in plastic or glass (but usually not bottles in glass for recycling) into the same "machine" (which will often just be a conveyor belt with a scanner and a receipt printer, while sorting takes place manually behind the curtain). Other machines are only for plastic bottles for recycling and they will crush the bottles to reduce space requirements. I have never seen a machine that accepts glass bottles for recycling (but maybe they exist somewhere), usually there are containers for the collection of glass or the bottles will be reused.

Technically, the term "reverse vending" only applies to machines where you get something for the items you have put in (is typical for reusable containers but may often not be true in the case of containers destined for recycling), maybe if we want to lump them together we should prefer a more generic tag for it?

Cheers,
Martin

Cheers
Martin

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fwd: amenity=vending_machine/vending=bottle_return - operator=

Graeme Fitzpatrick


On Fri, 10 Jan 2020 at 18:55, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

Am Fr., 10. Jan. 2020 um 08:58 Uhr schrieb Marc Gemis <[hidden email]>:
> amenity=reverse_vending_machine
> reverse_vending=bottle_return
>
> Machines may take more than one type of item. Some here take bottles and bottle creates. Some take metal cans.

sometimes (e.g. common typology in German shops) you can add both, plastic bottles for recycling and reusable bottles in plastic or glass (but usually not bottles in glass for recycling) into the same "machine" (which will often just be a conveyor belt with a scanner and a receipt printer, while sorting takes place manually behind the curtain). Other machines are only for plastic bottles for recycling and they will crush the bottles to reduce space requirements. I have never seen a machine that accepts glass bottles for recycling (but maybe they exist somewhere),


  Thanks

Graeme

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: amenity=vending_machine/vending=bottle_return - operator=

Tagging mailing list
Is the different between recycling and reusing important for the average consumer who a) wants to claim their deposit and b)  doesn’t want to put the item into landfill? 

Even schemes designed to reused containers have a limit on the number of reuses, the container I return might be on it’s first use or it’s thirtieth use.


On 10 Jan 2020, at 23:19, Graeme Fitzpatrick <[hidden email]> wrote:



On Fri, 10 Jan 2020 at 18:55, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

Am Fr., 10. Jan. 2020 um 08:58 Uhr schrieb Marc Gemis <[hidden email]>:
> amenity=reverse_vending_machine
> reverse_vending=bottle_return
>
> Machines may take more than one type of item. Some here take bottles and bottle creates. Some take metal cans.

sometimes (e.g. common typology in German shops) you can add both, plastic bottles for recycling and reusable bottles in plastic or glass (but usually not bottles in glass for recycling) into the same "machine" (which will often just be a conveyor belt with a scanner and a receipt printer, while sorting takes place manually behind the curtain). Other machines are only for plastic bottles for recycling and they will crush the bottles to reduce space requirements. I have never seen a machine that accepts glass bottles for recycling (but maybe they exist somewhere),


  Thanks

Graeme
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: amenity=vending_machine/vending=bottle_return - operator=

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 11. Jan 2020, at 08:07, Jake Edmonds via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Is the different between recycling and reusing important for the average consumer who a) wants to claim their deposit and b)  doesn’t want to put the item into landfill?


first of all it is indicating the (rough) typology of container that is accepted, secondly it would seem strange to tag something “recycling” when it’s actually much more beneficial for the environment because of reuse.

Cheers Martin
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: amenity=vending_machine/vending=bottle_return - operator=

Marc Gemis
> > Is the different between recycling and reusing important for the average consumer who a) wants to claim their deposit and b)  doesn’t want to put the item into landfill?
>
>
> first of all it is indicating the (rough) typology of container that is accepted, secondly it would seem strange to tag something “recycling” when it’s actually much more beneficial for the environment because of reuse.

I don't understand this "typology of container that is accepted". Some
glass bottles I have into put a container, others I can return to a
shop and get some money back. There is no difference in container, the
only difference is a mark on the bottle itself.

regards

m.

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: amenity=vending_machine/vending=bottle_return - operator=

Tagging mailing list
Here is the list of brands accepted at three stores near by. I also checked two others, one had a picture of various shapes and colours (with no labels) of bottles and the other lists ‘beer 0,33l, beer 0,5l) but both did have a list of which brands of plastic crates are accepted  

Fresh

Fresh 2

Billa

Birell

Birell


Budwar

Budwar

Budwar

Budweiser

Budweiser


Corgoň

Corgoň

Corgoň

Heineken

Heineken

Heineken

Kachelman

Kachelman

Kachelman

Kelt

Kelt

Kelt

Kozel

Kozel

Kozel

Krušovice

Krušovice


Pilsner

Pilsner

Pilsner

Šariš

Šariš

Šariš

Smädný Mních

Smädný Mních

Smädný Mních

Starobrno

Starobrno

Starobrno

Zlatý Bažant

Zlatý Bažant

Zlatý Bažant





Steiger

Steiger






Budiš



Fatra



Gambrinus



Gemer



Grošák



Martiner



Sitňan



Staropramen



Topvar




14

15

21



Sent from Jake Edmonds' iPhone

On 12 Jan 2020, at 18:15, Marc Gemis <[hidden email]> wrote:


Is the different between recycling and reusing important for the average consumer who a) wants to claim their deposit and b)  doesn’t want to put the item into landfill?


first of all it is indicating the (rough) typology of container that is accepted, secondly it would seem strange to tag something “recycling” when it’s actually much more beneficial for the environment because of reuse.

I don't understand this "typology of container that is accepted". Some
glass bottles I have into put a container, others I can return to a
shop and get some money back. There is no difference in container, the
only difference is a mark on the bottle itself.

regards

m.

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: amenity=vending_machine/vending=bottle_return - operator=

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Marc Gemis


sent from a phone

> On 12. Jan 2020, at 18:15, Marc Gemis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I don't understand this "typology of container that is accepted". Some
> glass bottles I have into put a container, others I can return to a
> shop and get some money back. There is no difference in container, the
> only difference is a mark on the bottle itself.



then they’re likely recycling and not reusable bottles.

Usually reusable bottles are thicker (both pet and glass bottles), although there are some very thick containers of all kind of material that is not reusable.

Cheers Martin




_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: amenity=vending_machine/vending=bottle_return - operator=

Marc Gemis
In reply to this post by Tagging mailing list
I was thinking of speciality beers (which do not come in crates), but especially of wine bottles. AFAIK, there is little to no difference in the bottle, but it might depend on who bottled the wine. If the wine is bottled by the supermarket itself, you can return the bottle, otherwise not. At least that is what I think.
That why I was confused by Martin's remark "typology of container that is accepted". I thought he meant crates vs single bottles, but he meant thin and thick glass.

I agree with you that brand for beer and soda drinks is important on whether they are accepted or not.

But in the end, I,, as a consumer do not know whether the bottles that I bring back for reuse, will actually be reused. Perhaps after a few reuse-cycles, the bottles are recycled.

To come back to tagging: so people seem to have a problem with amenity=recycle in case of reuse, but do not have a problem with amenity=vending_machine for such a machine (that does not sell anything). Or am I mistaken?


regards

m.

On Sun, Jan 12, 2020 at 6:26 PM Jake Edmonds via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:
Here is the list of brands accepted at three stores near by. I also checked two others, one had a picture of various shapes and colours (with no labels) of bottles and the other lists ‘beer 0,33l, beer 0,5l) but both did have a list of which brands of plastic crates are accepted  

Fresh

Fresh 2

Billa

Birell

Birell


Budwar

Budwar

Budwar

Budweiser

Budweiser


Corgoň

Corgoň

Corgoň

Heineken

Heineken

Heineken

Kachelman

Kachelman

Kachelman

Kelt

Kelt

Kelt

Kozel

Kozel

Kozel

Krušovice

Krušovice


Pilsner

Pilsner

Pilsner

Šariš

Šariš

Šariš

Smädný Mních

Smädný Mních

Smädný Mních

Starobrno

Starobrno

Starobrno

Zlatý Bažant

Zlatý Bažant

Zlatý Bažant





Steiger

Steiger






Budiš



Fatra



Gambrinus



Gemer



Grošák



Martiner



Sitňan



Staropramen



Topvar




14

15

21



Sent from Jake Edmonds' iPhone

On 12 Jan 2020, at 18:15, Marc Gemis <[hidden email]> wrote:


Is the different between recycling and reusing important for the average consumer who a) wants to claim their deposit and b)  doesn’t want to put the item into landfill?


first of all it is indicating the (rough) typology of container that is accepted, secondly it would seem strange to tag something “recycling” when it’s actually much more beneficial for the environment because of reuse.

I don't understand this "typology of container that is accepted". Some
glass bottles I have into put a container, others I can return to a
shop and get some money back. There is no difference in container, the
only difference is a mark on the bottle itself.

regards

m.

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: amenity=vending_machine/vending=bottle_return - operator=

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 13. Jan 2020, at 06:51, Marc Gemis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> To come back to tagging: so people seem to have a problem with amenity=recycle in case of reuse, but do not have a problem with amenity=vending_machine for such a machine (that does not sell anything). Or am I mistaken?


I’m having issues with both


Cheers Martin
_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: amenity=vending_machine/vending=bottle_return - operator=

Tagging mailing list
Do you have a suggestion Martin?

Maybe something like deposit_refund_system=yes could be applied to amenity=recycling, amenity=shop and amenity=vending_machine + vending=reverse_vending. deposit_refund_system:brands=* can specify the brands



> On 13 Jan 2020, at 07:54, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 13. Jan 2020, at 06:51, Marc Gemis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> To come back to tagging: so people seem to have a problem with amenity=recycle in case of reuse, but do not have a problem with amenity=vending_machine for such a machine (that does not sell anything). Or am I mistaken?
>
>
> I’m having issues with both
>
>
> Cheers Martin
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: amenity=vending_machine/vending=bottle_return - operator=

dieterdreist
Am Mo., 13. Jan. 2020 um 09:25 Uhr schrieb Jake Edmonds via Tagging <[hidden email]>:
Do you have a suggestion Martin?


maybe a generic

amenity=bottle_return_machine ?

could be used for all kind of machines that take bottles, and amended with tags about the kind of bottles. It also seems easier to understand for non-natives (while describing more specifically the purpose) than "reverse vending machine".

for:recycling=yes
for:reuse=yes

not sure if we would want to distinguish various specific kind of bottles, or groups of, like milk, beer, water, wine, soda, ...
and networks? (for example in Germany, 180+ mineral water companies are associated in "Deutscher Brunnen" and used to have the same kind of reusable glass bottle (their own term for this is "pool bottle" as opposed to "individual bottle"), reference: https://www.gdb.de/mehrweg/ now most of the bottles are in plastic (PET).
As a sidenote, they also have a reference on the amount of uses (up to 50 for glass and 25 for plastic).

For practical reasons, I would think it is overkill to specify all kinds of bottles that are accepted (in Germany if it is reuse, they would also accept some other containers that aren't bottles, like reusable yoghurt jars)
while it may be useful to know the exact location of the machine (especially in big supermarkets and shopping malls).

Cheers
Martin



_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: amenity=vending_machine/vending=bottle_return - operator=

Colin Smale

On 2020-01-13 09:59, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

Am Mo., 13. Jan. 2020 um 09:25 Uhr schrieb Jake Edmonds via Tagging <[hidden email]>:
Do you have a suggestion Martin?
 
 
maybe a generic
 
amenity=bottle_return_machine ?
 
Why limit it to bottles? We don't do that with vending machines; Why do it here? The type/class of RVM can be indicated by reverse_vending=bottles just like we use vending=drinks.
 
could be used for all kind of machines that take bottles, and amended with tags about the kind of bottles. It also seems easier to understand for non-natives (while describing more specifically the purpose) than "reverse vending machine".
 
Anyone looking at the current tagging is going to see lots of terms that they don't understand, for reasons of language or knowledge/experience. The device in question is called a reverse vending machine in English, even if some people think it sounds weird. Can you suggest a synonym that would mean more to a random non-native-speaker, without changing the meaning to a hyponym? I note that even the wiki page for amenity=vending_machine refers to these devices as a reverse vending machine.
 

_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
12