Hi, I was looking at the wiki for antennas https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dantenna
I made some additions to the definition and added some photos
etc. It is still rather sparse. I'd like to be able to further define what the antenna is.
Unfortunately on the German wiki there is the use of
antenna:type .. with a confusing set of values. (eg communication, special, parabolic_satellit,
parabolic_satellit_uplink,
radar)
These appear to be the use of the antenna. Perhaps this could be antenna:use=radio/TV/radar/wifi/cell_phone I don't think 'communication' is a good tag - any antenna
performs the function of communication. Similar for satellite (note last 'e' for British English), that
might be all you can tell from the configuration and direction
of the antenna but does not define its use.
Then the 'type' of antenna .. better described as antenna:configuration ? Values could be monopole, dipole, yagi, dish ... yes dish
will have sub tags for the feed system etc.
Broad thoughts? Not after detail at this stage but antenna:type to others such as; antenna:use? antenna:configuration? antenna:mode=tx/rx/2way for the direction of communication?
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Hello Warin, I'm afraid we're opening a can of worms here, but you're right: something needs to be fixed, and here below I'm trying to contribute with some considerations...
The Wiki [1]
gives a very good definition of what an antenna is: an "interface
between radio waves and electrical signals in a transmission
line". That interface can work in either or both directions:
Not all antennas are communication antennas:
communication antennas are for conveying information ("meaning")
from one party to another (and I would add "in a bidirectional
way" or we should call it a "broadcasting antenna", but
I'm not totally sure about this latter specification). Some
other kind of non-communication antenna: the radio-telescope, the
VOR, the radar. For the above I think an antenna:usage=* tag could be a
correct tag, with values like: communication, broadcasting,
radio-telescope, navigation, radar, measurement, ham_radio (there
is not such a thing as an "ham radio" antenna type, per se: hams
make uses of a lot of different antenna types). As for the "type" of antennas, there are a lot:
monopole, dipole, mast radiator, whip, Yagi, Log-periodic, random
wire, loop, quad, rhombic, helical, beverage, ground plane,
collinear, traveling wave, curtain, horn, dish, etc., etc. I'm really unsure if it is worth to specify antenna types.
Beside, I think most mappers will be unable to correctly identify
antenna types. A radome is not an antenna, but the
weatherproof enclosure that protect an antenna. In the wiki there is a lot of talking (and some proposed tags)
about "transponders", but the term is used in an absolutely
inaccurate and wrong meaning: a transponder is "is a device
that, upon receiving a signal, emits a different
signal in response" [2]. What in
the wiki is called a transponder can probably be more accurately
described as a "repeater" [3]. Unhappily
man_made=communications_transponder is already in use for
absolutely wrong features, as in [4]
where it it is used to tag a cell tower.
Enough, for now, but of course I'm open to the discussion and I'm ready to contribute for what I can (I'm not an expert in the field but I am a former radio amateur and a former telephone company's CTO). Cheers! Sergio
[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dantenna
On 2018-11-24 02:47, Warin wrote:
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On 24/11/18 21:29, Sergio Manzi wrote:
Thanks... rather than 'fixed', guided might be a better term.
'Type' just provides for too much freedom in the responses.
Well it is a better attempt. But needs improvement (I can say that as I wrote it :) ) "interface between radio waves in free space and electrical signals in a transmission line". Consider a wave guide - the field there could be described by some as a radio wave .. but not in free space. And of course a wave guide is a transmission line. Yep. Though communications can be one way e.g. a TV signal conveys information, sometimes useful like a weather forecast. But I am reluctant to put 'communication' down as a value - covers too many things. Biconical, biconilog, patch ... heaps of them. Some even describe the matching .. a 'Roberts Dipole' for example. A 'quad' to me just says 4 .. 4 of what? Helicals, bow ties, dipoles .. A 'phased array' also does not say what the driving antennas are nor the number of them.
A 'ground plane' is also a system of at least 2 components. And the feed to the dish can be in several different locations... antenna:reflector=dish/ground_plane/* ? Unfortunately some mappers want to put these things down .. so provision for that has to be made to avoid confusion. Someone has also included polarisation in the types value .. so that needs to be addressed too, antenna:polarisation=vertical/horizontal/circular/circular_clockwise/circular_anticlockwise should do. Sigh. Yep. But that is what mappers see and want to put down. Don't know what to do with it yet. Similar to the dish problem, they see the dish and want to put that down without going into the feed detail or the true antenna. Some of the dishes are covered too so it will not be easy to have mappers detail more than 'dish'. antenna:enclosure=radome/* ? Some microwave repeater antennas get covers - usually for snow conditions.
Yep. Non experts tagging things as well as they know how.
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In reply to this post by Warin
On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 1:48 AM Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have some pictures of various antennas in my area. Well, they're pictures of masts but the antennas are sometimes discernible. Any idea for a good place to dump them so they can contribute to antenna/mast examples that people can add to wiki pages as appropriate? Worst case, you want me to mail them to you and you can decide what to do with them? -- Paul _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
I’d been thinking about this lately while working on towers and radio telescopes.
Towers can be tagged with tower:construction =dish and this is rendered as “satellite” dish sending or receiving waves, in the Openstreetmap-Carto style. Radio telescopes are now rendered as well. But there are some satellite uplink dishes mistagged as radio telescopes. Other tags in use are man_made=communications_dish and man_made=satellite_dish But neither is very well documented, I recall. I’d be happy to have a better way to tag these dishes. On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 9:52 PM Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Hi all It would be great to use telecom=* instead of man_made or communications Antennas is a difgicult topic to address in osm since there can be many of them at the same time. They should be distinguished from mast and supports since antennas are only devices All the best François Le sam. 24 nov. 2018 à 14:59, Joseph Eisenberg <[hidden email]> a écrit : I’d been thinking about this lately while working on towers and radio telescopes. _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
I like it! To me it makes much more sense to tag telecom=BTS (Base
Transceiver Station, see [1])
than man_made:antenna + antenna:type=whatever. But BTS is not indicated as possible value for telecom=* in the wiki... Cheers, Sergio [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_transceiver_station
On 2018-11-24 15:22, François Lacombe
wrote:
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"BTS" is another object and differ from antennas since the antennas are connected to BTS/nodeB/eNodeB. Both can be mapped with telecom=* and BTS will often get man_made=street_cabinet Recently reviewed Telecom=service_device is suitable for "BTS" cabinets with telecom:medium=radio and aditional tags for 3GPP technology 2G/3G or LTE. Several antennas can be fed by a single radio cabinet François Le sam. 24 nov. 2018 à 15:51, Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> a écrit :
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So... how many tags will this node have, once you have tagged all of its components? From [1]:
Mapping each component (yes, the antenna too...) separatly doesn't make much sense to me... Sergio
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_transceiver_station On 2018-11-24 17:59, François Lacombe
wrote:
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And just to add to the confusion, there are usually three antennas per BTS, which cover ~120 degree sectors, so the RF power can be adjusted in each sector individually to give the desired amount of overlap with adjacent cells. So in terms of physical things to map, we have at least locations, masts, cells, sectors, antennas, and base stations. And possibly microwave backhaul equipment. On 2018-11-24 19:47, Sergio Manzi wrote:
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Right, forgot about that! :-)
On 2018-11-24 20:26, Colin Smale wrote: > And possibly microwave backhaul equipment _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
In reply to this post by Sergio Manzi
On 25/11/18 01:50, Sergio Manzi wrote:
I am not advocating the use of man_made=antenna with or in place of some other tag that already incorporates an antenna e.g man_made=telescope, telescope:type=radio I am saying that at present there are mappers using less than precise tags with man_made=antenna and that needs to have some guidance in order not to end up with a bigger mess than it already is.
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In reply to this post by Sergio Manzi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_transceiver_station is confusing the BTS and the place itself. A BTS as a device that doesn't include antennas since antennas are connected to it actually. Like any antenna (even the microwave backhaul link antenna), a BTS is a device in the technical site. Pretty often, there are several BTS in a single site and several antennas can be fed by a single BTS. It's almost impossible to map all this stuff in a single node. The place should be a closed area. Each BTS, masts, antennas should get their own node inside the closed area. Coaxial cable schemes may be complex between active equipments (BTS/nodeB/eNodeB or RRU) and antennas, I'm not sure we'll be able to map this in OSM with a dedicated topology. Surveying for fenced perimeters, masts, BTS and antennas would be a really great achivement to begin with. All the best François Le sam. 24 nov. 2018 à 20:30, Sergio Manzi <[hidden email]> a écrit : Right, forgot about that! :-) _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
In reply to this post by Warin
Le dim. 25 nov. 2018 à 00:36, Warin <[hidden email]> a écrit :
This topic needs a proper proposal in the wiki to add several value to telecom=* key. Several months of work are needed to get a sustainable tagging model It's a good opportunity to improve telecom=* and clean up man_made. Avoiding keys like antenna:type in favor of antenna:model or design or usage would be great. François _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
In reply to this post by Colin Smale
On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 at 05:27, Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ahh, but is it all hanging off a mast, a tower or a pole? :-) Thanks Graeme _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
On 25/11/18 13:50, Graeme Fitzpatrick
wrote:
No. Some antennas are mounted on the ground, some are mounted on home roofs. Take a look at the photos on https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dantenna _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging |
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