bear box in campground ?

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bear box in campground ?

Rob Savoye
  Many western state campgrounds have metal bear proof food storage
boxes in each campsite, but not all of them. At certain times of the
year this can be important. :-) Around here the bears will destroy your
car if there is food left inside. I see zero instances of this type of
data, at least not in Colorado. My guess would 'amenity='bear_box' ?
(looking at amenity=bbq as an example)

        - rob -

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Re: bear box in campground ?

Mark Wagner
On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 11:44:41 -0600
Rob Savoye <[hidden email]> wrote:

>   Many western state campgrounds have metal bear proof food storage
> boxes in each campsite, but not all of them. At certain times of the
> year this can be important. :-) Around here the bears will destroy
> your car if there is food left inside. I see zero instances of this
> type of data, at least not in Colorado. My guess would
> 'amenity='bear_box' ? (looking at amenity=bbq as an example)

That's how I've mapped the five I've added to the map.

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Re: bear box in campground ?

Andy Townsend
On 21/08/2019 19:03, Mark Wagner wrote:

> On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 11:44:41 -0600
> Rob Savoye <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>    Many western state campgrounds have metal bear proof food storage
>> boxes in each campsite, but not all of them. At certain times of the
>> year this can be important. :-) Around here the bears will destroy
>> your car if there is food left inside. I see zero instances of this
>> type of data, at least not in Colorado. My guess would
>> 'amenity='bear_box' ? (looking at amenity=bbq as an example)
> That's how I've mapped the five I've added to the map.

A quick search of taginfo suggests that as the best option - try
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/amenity=bear_box and variations.

Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: bear box in campground ?

Tom Pfeifer
In reply to this post by Rob Savoye
On 21.08.2019 19:44, Rob Savoye wrote:
>    Many western state campgrounds have metal bear proof food storage
> boxes in each campsite, but not all of them. At certain times of the
> year this can be important. :-) Around here the bears will destroy your
> car if there is food left inside. I see zero instances of this type of
> data, at least not in Colorado. My guess would 'amenity='bear_box' ?
> (looking at amenity=bbq as an example)

The question remains if tagging the boxes would give bears an advantage as they could exploit the
knowledge and focus on sites without such boxes?

tom

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Re: bear box in campground ?

Paul Allen
On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 at 22:05, Tom Pfeifer <[hidden email]> wrote:

The question remains if tagging the boxes would give bears an advantage as they could exploit the
knowledge and focus on sites without such boxes?

+1

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Re: bear box in campground ?

Joseph Eisenberg
In reply to this post by Andy Townsend
Good idea! I agree that amenity=bear_box would be a good way to map
this feature, probably on a node.

This suggests that you could also use bear_box=yes/no with a
tourism=camp_site or tourism=camp_pitch feature to specify whether or
not their is a bear box somewhere at the location.

We should probably add both of these to the proposed list of campsite
property tags at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Campsite_properties

Joseph

On 8/22/19, Andy Townsend <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 21/08/2019 19:03, Mark Wagner wrote:
>> On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 11:44:41 -0600
>> Rob Savoye <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>>    Many western state campgrounds have metal bear proof food storage
>>> boxes in each campsite, but not all of them. At certain times of the
>>> year this can be important. :-) Around here the bears will destroy
>>> your car if there is food left inside. I see zero instances of this
>>> type of data, at least not in Colorado. My guess would
>>> 'amenity='bear_box' ? (looking at amenity=bbq as an example)
>> That's how I've mapped the five I've added to the map.
>
> A quick search of taginfo suggests that as the best option - try
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/amenity=bear_box and variations.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
>
>
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Re: bear box in campground ?

Rob Savoye
On 8/21/19 3:54 PM, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> This suggests that you could also use bear_box=yes/no with a
> tourism=camp_site or tourism=camp_pitch feature to specify whether
> or not their is a bear box somewhere at the location.

  Yeah, I'd add this to a 'tourism=camp_pitch' node. Where I was
yesterday works out to something like 'amenity=bbq;bear_box;parking'
plus 'leisure=firepit'.

> We should probably add both of these to the proposed list of
> campsite property tags at

  That's be a good idea, as bear boxes are becoming more and more common
in western US campgrounds.

        - rob -


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Re: bear box in campground ?

Graeme Fitzpatrick


On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 at 08:02, Rob Savoye <[hidden email]> wrote:

> We should probably add both of these to the proposed list of
> campsite property tags at

  That's be a good idea, as bear boxes are becoming more and more common
in western US campgrounds.

We don't have that problem!, but are the bear boxes at each individual site / pitch, or is there one / "x" for the entire campground?

That would have to change the way they're mapped.

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: bear box in campground ?

Rob Savoye
On 8/21/19 4:16 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:

> We don't have that problem!, but are the bear boxes at each individual
> site / pitch, or is there one / "x" for the entire campground?

  Bear boxes are in every campsite, and hold about a week's worth of
food. They're big enough you can put in a decent size cooler plus
supplies A campground sized one would be huge!

        - rob -

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Re: bear box in campground ?

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Rob Savoye


sent from a phone

> On 22. Aug 2019, at 00:01, Rob Savoye <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  Yeah, I'd add this to a 'tourism=camp_pitch' node. Where I was
> yesterday works out to something like 'amenity=bbq;bear_box;parking'
> plus 'leisure=firepit'.


a more common mapping method would be individual objects for each feature (a node for each feature, inside a tourism=camp_site polygon) or properties (bbq=yes bear_box=yes etc.) on a “main” feature (camp site object). We usually don’t do amenity =foo;bar

Cheers Martin
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Re: bear box in campground ?

Joseph Eisenberg
I agree with Martin. It's not good practice to use semicolons in the
value of the main feature tag, like amenity=bbq;bear_box, because this
is hard for database users to interpret with a simple algorithm.

At the proposal
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Campsite_properties)
there are a list of property tags which are already approved or "de
facto" in common use on camp_site (and camp_pitch) features, like
this:

drinking_water=yes/no availability of drinking water at the feature
internet_access=yes/no/wlan - availability of internet access, use
wlan for WiFi.
recycling=yes/no Availability of containers for recycling.
sanitary_dump_station=yes/no/customers - availability of a santitary
dump station for emptying caravan toilet holding tanks
toilets=yes/no Availability of toilets at the site

Note that there are also feature tags for almost all of these, like:
amenity=drinking_water
amenity=recycling
amenity=sanitary_dump_station
amenity=toilets
etc.

So it's very common to use  separate tag for a feature and for a
property of a feature. This helps with keeping to "One Feature, One
OSM Element".

Hence: amenity=bear_box on it's own node, right at the location of the
box. Or if you don't have that info or just want to say that "there is
a bear box at this campground", you can add bear_box=yes/no to the
tourism=camp_site

- Joseph


On 8/22/19, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 22. Aug 2019, at 00:01, Rob Savoye <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>  Yeah, I'd add this to a 'tourism=camp_pitch' node. Where I was
>> yesterday works out to something like 'amenity=bbq;bear_box;parking'
>> plus 'leisure=firepit'.
>
>
> a more common mapping method would be individual objects for each feature (a
> node for each feature, inside a tourism=camp_site polygon) or properties
> (bbq=yes bear_box=yes etc.) on a “main” feature (camp site object). We
> usually don’t do amenity =foo;bar
>
> Cheers Martin

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Re: bear box in campground ?

Evan Derickson
In reply to this post by Rob Savoye
Bear boxes can be shared among multiple campsites, especially in backcountry campgrounds. We should also consider that there are other forms of food protection, such as bear wires and bear poles, that are used in some campsites. What about tagging with something like 'wildlife_food_protection=yes/no/bear_box/bear_wire/bear_pole'?

On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 3:21 PM Rob Savoye <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 8/21/19 4:16 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:

> We don't have that problem!, but are the bear boxes at each individual
> site / pitch, or is there one / "x" for the entire campground?

  Bear boxes are in every campsite, and hold about a week's worth of
food. They're big enough you can put in a decent size cooler plus
supplies A campground sized one would be huge!

        - rob -

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Re: bear box in campground ?

Paul Johnson-3
In reply to this post by Tom Pfeifer


On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 4:04 PM Tom Pfeifer <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 21.08.2019 19:44, Rob Savoye wrote:
>    Many western state campgrounds have metal bear proof food storage
> boxes in each campsite, but not all of them. At certain times of the
> year this can be important. :-) Around here the bears will destroy your
> car if there is food left inside. I see zero instances of this type of
> data, at least not in Colorado. My guess would 'amenity='bear_box' ?
> (looking at amenity=bbq as an example)

The question remains if tagging the boxes would give bears an advantage as they could exploit the
knowledge and focus on sites without such boxes?

Probably not.  I'm not a bear but I play one now and then! 

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Re: bear box in campground ?

Paul Johnson-3
In reply to this post by Rob Savoye


On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 5:20 PM Rob Savoye <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 8/21/19 4:16 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:

> We don't have that problem!, but are the bear boxes at each individual
> site / pitch, or is there one / "x" for the entire campground?

  Bear boxes are in every campsite, and hold about a week's worth of
food. They're big enough you can put in a decent size cooler plus
supplies A campground sized one would be huge!

They're not always every campsite, they're sometimes entire campgrounds or sections of a campground, to ensure the food is far enough away from all campers that any bears willing to take on the challenge are not going to be an immediate threat to humans and vice versa.  Yellowstone National Park and Banff National Park come to mind as having campgrounds with banks of bear boxes.

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Re: bear box in campground ?

Warin
In reply to this post by Graeme Fitzpatrick
On 22/08/19 08:16, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:


On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 at 08:02, Rob Savoye <[hidden email]> wrote:

> We should probably add both of these to the proposed list of
> campsite property tags at

  That's be a good idea, as bear boxes are becoming more and more common
in western US campgrounds.

We don't have that problem!,

'We' have problems with possums, mice and rats (native, not the other kind yet).
They have been known to eat through expensive tents and backpacks even where the 'food' inside is simply a unwashed stain.

Boxes have been provided in a few locations.
At other locations hanging food (and rubbish) is required unless you want it eaten and scattered around.

Dingoes are also a problem, but they usually just steel, they don't open tents or eat into them.
At a few places currawong have learnt how to undo zippers and access food inside backpacks.

https://tasmaniangeographic.com/food-raiders-of-the-overland-track/

Is there a requirement to tag these 'animal resistant boxes'? Would a more universal tag be better?

I am surprised raccoons are not a problem in northern America.

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Re: bear box in campground ?

Warin
In reply to this post by Tom Pfeifer
On 22/08/19 07:03, Tom Pfeifer wrote:

> On 21.08.2019 19:44, Rob Savoye wrote:
>>    Many western state campgrounds have metal bear proof food storage
>> boxes in each campsite, but not all of them. At certain times of the
>> year this can be important. :-) Around here the bears will destroy your
>> car if there is food left inside. I see zero instances of this type of
>> data, at least not in Colorado. My guess would 'amenity='bear_box' ?
>> (looking at amenity=bbq as an example)
>
> The question remains if tagging the boxes would give bears an
> advantage as they could exploit the knowledge and focus on sites
> without such boxes?

Bears are smater than the average human - they don't need maps.


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Re: bear box in campground ?

Paul Johnson-3
In reply to this post by Warin
On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 7:23 PM Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
Is there a requirement to tag these 'animal resistant boxes'? Would a more universal tag be better?

I've generally heard these referred to as "bear boxes" regardless of the species they're intended to guard against.  Granted, my exposure to such facilities is limited and I am bear-biased.
 
I am surprised raccoons are not a problem in northern America. 

They are, but unlike bears (especially black bears), raccoons haven't figured out how to open car doors from the outside yet.  Probably owing to their rather short stature being unable to reach the door handle. 

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Re: bear box in campground ?

Warin
On 22/08/19 10:25, Paul Johnson wrote:
On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 7:23 PM Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
Is there a requirement to tag these 'animal resistant boxes'? Would a more universal tag be better?

I've generally heard these referred to as "bear boxes" regardless of the species they're intended to guard against.  Granted, my exposure to such facilities is limited and I am bear-biased.

American English? Fortunately the UK does not seem to suffer from this issue, so there is no British English example we can use. 

For someone who is not familiar with the term 'bear box' it may sound like bears are stored in there.
"Food storage box" might be better?


 
I am surprised raccoons are not a problem in northern America. 

They are, but unlike bears (especially black bears), raccoons haven't figured out how to open car doors from the outside yet.  Probably owing to their rather short stature being unable to reach the door handle.

If they team together they can form a pyramid for the reach, only need to figure out the handle then. 
Can they do zippers? Raiding tents and backpacks then becomes possible.





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Re: bear box in campground ?

Paul Johnson-3
On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 7:53 PM Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 22/08/19 10:25, Paul Johnson wrote:
On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 7:23 PM Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
Is there a requirement to tag these 'animal resistant boxes'? Would a more universal tag be better?

I've generally heard these referred to as "bear boxes" regardless of the species they're intended to guard against.  Granted, my exposure to such facilities is limited and I am bear-biased.

American English? Fortunately the UK does not seem to suffer from this issue, so there is no British English example we can use. 

Well, of course, they hunted their bears to extinction and turned 'em into hats.  I think Canadian trappers are now the current source.
 
For someone who is not familiar with the term 'bear box' it may sound like bears are stored in there.
"Food storage box" might be better?

Fair point.  Food storage box would just mean any kind of camp staple box at a semipermanent encampment, though, and most staple boxes are just basically resistance against weather and vermin, typically raised off the ground about waist high on the low side with a lid that flips out as a food preparation surface, but wouldn't survive initial contact with a bear interested in its contents.  Common at locations where backpackers typically travel in groups of around half a dozen and stay encamped for several days at a shot in order to facilitate a single common kitchen.

Quick Google search suggests "staple box" is not particularly known outside of Parks Canada, Scouts Canada and Scouts BSA circles, though, with kitchen box being slightly more common in North America and "chuck box uk" actually being the first autocomplete when you start typing "chuck box" in Google.  Chuck box seems to also be the most unambiguous and british term available.

So, for any such box, perhaps amenity=chuck_box and if it's purpose built against some kind of specific threat to its contents, then hardened=yes?

I'm not married to the terminology, but I am ready to buy in.
I am surprised raccoons are not a problem in northern America. 

They are, but unlike bears (especially black bears), raccoons haven't figured out how to open car doors from the outside yet.  Probably owing to their rather short stature being unable to reach the door handle.

If they team together they can form a pyramid for the reach, only need to figure out the handle then. 
Can they do zippers? Raiding tents and backpacks then becomes possible.

Can confirm that raccoons don't bother with zippers, they just go through.  Learned the hard way at Cape Foulweather State Park to tree packs with food when my pack got raided the first campout I had in the Scouts.  Only had to ruin my grandfather's US Army pack he brought back from World War II, which had additionally survived an extended backpacking trip across Afghanistan my mother took when it was under Soviet control in the process (I learned how to restore it after that, and ended up getting a more modern pack better suited for backpacking).

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Re: bear box in campground ?

Rob Savoye
In reply to this post by Warin
On 8/21/19 6:52 PM, Warin wrote:

> If they team together they can form a pyramid for the reach, only
> need to figure out the handle then. Can they do zippers? Raiding
> tents and backpacks then becomes possible.

  Around here the bears have learned to open car doors, hours doors, and
yes, tent zippers too. Course with tents they usually just go in through
the nylon where ever they want.

> a more common mapping method would be individual objects for
> eachfeature (a node for each feature, inside a tourism=camp_site
> polygon) or properties (bbq=yes bear_box=yes etc.) on a “main”
> feature (camp siteobject). We usually don’t do amenity =foo;bar

  With several hundred camp sites spread out over several hundred square
miles, and many are backcountry ones, I doubt I'll ever get around to
mapping each site to that level of detail. I like the idea though, maybe
when I get done the current TODO list...

        - rob -



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