beetroot or beet

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beetroot or beet

Warin
Hi again,

another UK English question.


I use beetroot .. but beet has been used on the wiki.

I think beet comes from American English.


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Re: beetroot or beet

David Groom
Although "beet" could also refer to "sugar beet"

I think the wiki pages may be confused

The wiki page for crop in Japanese
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JA:Key:crop does seem to have crop =
beet translating as sugar beet

Whereas the Polish page I think has crop = beet translating a beetroot

There probably needs to be an addition to the English crop page to have
crop = beet and make this clear it is sugar beet.

Tag info shows 579 ways tagged with crop = beet, of these 572 are in
northern Italy added by 3 users, so its probably quite easy to ask what
exactly they meant by "beet" , and retag these existing ways if they
actually should be beetroot.

David

------ Original Message ------
From: "Warin" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: 10/01/2017 00:01:24
Subject: [Talk-GB] beetroot or beet

>Hi again,
>
>another UK English question.
>
>
>I use beetroot .. but beet has been used on the wiki.
>
>I think beet comes from American English.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Talk-GB mailing list
>[hidden email]
>https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb



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Re: beetroot or beet

Andy Townsend
On 10/01/17 01:20, David Groom wrote:
> ...
> Tag info shows 579 ways tagged with crop = beet, of these 572 are in
> northern Italy added by 3 users, so its probably quite easy to ask
> what exactly they meant by "beet" , and retag these existing ways if
> they actually should be beetroot.

In the UK I could hazard a guess as to whether sugarbeet or something
else based on the proximity to one of British Sugar's plants such as
Newark or Peterborough, but in Northern Italy asking the mapper
definitely seems like a good idea.

Another caveat in the UK - crops are often rotated (and planted based on
price expectation) so what is beet one year is barley the next, and
perhaps oil-seed rape after that.  Essentially, where this variation
happens it'd be difficult to trust any "crop" tag over a year old.

Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: beetroot or beet

Craig Wallace
In reply to this post by David Groom
On 2017-01-10 01:20, David Groom wrote:
> Although "beet" could also refer to "sugar beet"

Or "fodder beet" (aka mangelwurzel).
I think it is rather similar to sugar beet, not sure if you could tell
the difference in the field.

It seems they are all the same species (Beta vulgaris), but different
cultivars. Also Swiss chard is the same species, but using the leaves.


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Re: beetroot or beet

Warin
In reply to this post by Andy Townsend
On 10-Jan-17 12:44 PM, Andy Townsend wrote:

> On 10/01/17 01:20, David Groom wrote:
>> ...
>> Tag info shows 579 ways tagged with crop = beet, of these 572 are in
>> northern Italy added by 3 users, so its probably quite easy to ask
>> what exactly they meant by "beet" , and retag these existing ways if
>> they actually should be beetroot.
>
> In the UK I could hazard a guess as to whether sugarbeet or something
> else based on the proximity to one of British Sugar's plants such as
> Newark or Peterborough, but in Northern Italy asking the mapper
> definitely seems like a good idea.

There are lots of  'beets' ... different kinds of plants that is.
http://www.webcitation.org/6Fu9TOBWl?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.plantnames.unimelb.edu.au%2FSorting%2FBeta.html

Having viewed that ... I think the value can be left as beet... it maybe
viewed as 'generic'  for all the different kinds.

I am only familiar with beetroot ... but I have changed the wiki
description to
"Beet field, many different kinds, beetroot and sugarbeet being two. "

It was ""Beet field"

If necessary to identify a particular beet then a further tag could be
added
beet=beetroot, sugarbeet, sea_beat etc...


>
> Another caveat in the UK - crops are often rotated (and planted based
> on price expectation) so what is beet one year is barley the next, and
> perhaps oil-seed rape after that.  Essentially, where this variation
> happens it'd be difficult to trust any "crop" tag over a year old.
>

There is at least one instance of multiple values separated by  ; I'd
think that would be one way of mapping crop rotation values? Rendering
is another problem.



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Re: beetroot or beet

Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)-2
In reply to this post by Craig Wallace
I can see a whole new wiki excursion into the underground world of root crops ;-)

Cheers
Andy

-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Wallace [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 10 January 2017 01:52
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] beetroot or beet

On 2017-01-10 01:20, David Groom wrote:
> Although "beet" could also refer to "sugar beet"

Or "fodder beet" (aka mangelwurzel).
I think it is rather similar to sugar beet, not sure if you could tell the difference in the field.

It seems they are all the same species (Beta vulgaris), but different cultivars. Also Swiss chard is the same species, but using the leaves.


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Re: beetroot or beet

Dave F
In reply to this post by Andy Townsend
I'm surprised contributors are spending their time with the ephemeral
'crop' tag in the UK. As pointed out by Andy we have crop rotation
systems. Previously to ensure the land wasn't stripped of nutrients, but
now primarily based on what is the highest EU CAP subsidy.

DaveF

On 10/01/2017 01:44, Andy Townsend wrote:

> On 10/01/17 01:20, David Groom wrote:
>> ...
>> Tag info shows 579 ways tagged with crop = beet, of these 572 are in
>> northern Italy added by 3 users, so its probably quite easy to ask
>> what exactly they meant by "beet" , and retag these existing ways if
>> they actually should be beetroot.
>
> In the UK I could hazard a guess as to whether sugarbeet or something
> else based on the proximity to one of British Sugar's plants such as
> Newark or Peterborough, but in Northern Italy asking the mapper
> definitely seems like a good idea.
>
> Another caveat in the UK - crops are often rotated (and planted based
> on price expectation) so what is beet one year is barley the next, and
> perhaps oil-seed rape after that.  Essentially, where this variation
> happens it'd be difficult to trust any "crop" tag over a year old.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-GB mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb


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Re: beetroot or beet

Mark Goodge
In reply to this post by Andy Townsend
On 10/01/2017 01:44, Andy Townsend wrote:

> On 10/01/17 01:20, David Groom wrote:
>> ...
>> Tag info shows 579 ways tagged with crop = beet, of these 572 are in
>> northern Italy added by 3 users, so its probably quite easy to ask
>> what exactly they meant by "beet" , and retag these existing ways if
>> they actually should be beetroot.
>
> In the UK I could hazard a guess as to whether sugarbeet or something
> else based on the proximity to one of British Sugar's plants such as
> Newark or Peterborough, but in Northern Italy asking the mapper
> definitely seems like a good idea.

In British (or, at least, English; I'm not familiar with Scottish or
Welsh) agricultural practice, "beet" alone is generally short for sugar
beet. Beetroot isn't normally abbreviated, not least because doing so
would risk confusion with sugar beet. Fodder beet (aka field beet) is
typically called mangelwurzel in England.

> Another caveat in the UK - crops are often rotated (and planted based on
> price expectation) so what is beet one year is barley the next, and
> perhaps oil-seed rape after that.  Essentially, where this variation
> happens it'd be difficult to trust any "crop" tag over a year old.

I agree; I think labelling annual crops is probably rather pointless in
the UK. It's probably worth labelling perennials, such as orchard crops,
vineyards, grassland etc, as these typically remain the same over a
period of many years (centuries, even, in some cases). But there are
very few circumstances where the same annual crop will be grown
repeatedly in the same field. And keeping up to date with the changes is
too big an ask, really.

Mark


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Re: beetroot or beet

Warin
In reply to this post by Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)-2
:)

Ok...

beets are vegetables.. (I hope). I do like an organised tagging scheme, so I am using produce=vegetable, then vegetable=*

This have two effects;

a better organisation structure and

the possibility to tag a field as produce=vegetable without specifying the vegetable.

It also places the issue of beet/beetroot/sugar-beet at a lower level.

I think the use of the abbreviation beet should be discouraged at that level.

I encourage doing the same for other produce ..e.g. nuts ... grains?

The present landuse=orchard has fruits so I'm not doing those as it presently uses its own scheme.


On 10-Jan-17 08:30 PM, Andy Robinson wrote:

> I can see a whole new wiki excursion into the underground world of root crops ;-)
>
> Cheers
> Andy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Craig Wallace [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: 10 January 2017 01:52
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] beetroot or beet
>
> On 2017-01-10 01:20, David Groom wrote:
>> Although "beet" could also refer to "sugar beet"
> Or "fodder beet" (aka mangelwurzel).
> I think it is rather similar to sugar beet, not sure if you could tell the difference in the field.
>
> It seems they are all the same species (Beta vulgaris), but different cultivars. Also Swiss chard is the same species, but using the leaves.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-GB mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-GB mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb



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