craft VS man_made

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craft VS man_made

cascafico
Hello ML!


in Italy there are several small processing companies catalogued as
artisans, mostly in categories like food processing (meat, biscuits,
milk, etc), which don't run a shop (or shop is a minor business).
Reading the wikis, I understand that, depending on business volumes, I
should go for craft.

For instance, I have a dataset with several companies processing of
pork meat, which final product is "prosciutto crudo" ("raw" maturated
ham) and/or salami.

AFAIK in case of an industrial scale business tagging could be
   man_made=works
   product=meat

but if craft should be considered, can be
   craft=meat
   an accepted kv combination?

Is craft just whoever runs the business or the final processed product? Or both?

Other tagging alternatives?

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Re: craft VS man_made

voschix
I would add that in the case of a "prosciuttificio" (small factory that produces raw cured ham) in many cases these processing plants buy the meat and run only the curing process, which takes more than a year. They may also have a shop or only resell.
So we are talking about a small very specialised meat-processing facility.
The official EU translation site https://iate.europa.eu/ translates "prosciuttificio" (and "salumificio", which produces salami) with "ham factory".
If the EU gives that as official translation, then this should be good enough for OSM.

I would certainly not use "man_made", but "craft", a least for the smaller ones. Hence I would suggest to start tagging them as "craft=ham_factory"
even though this is a new tag.

... and you should be grateful that the language of the OSM DB is not French, because in that case it would be "craft=
établissement_de_production_de_jambons"
:-)

Maybe a more generic approach could be
craft=meat_curing
product=ham

Volker




On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 at 09:44, Cascafico Giovanni <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello ML!


in Italy there are several small processing companies catalogued as
artisans, mostly in categories like food processing (meat, biscuits,
milk, etc), which don't run a shop (or shop is a minor business).
Reading the wikis, I understand that, depending on business volumes, I
should go for craft.

For instance, I have a dataset with several companies processing of
pork meat, which final product is "prosciutto crudo" ("raw" maturated
ham) and/or salami.

AFAIK in case of an industrial scale business tagging could be
   man_made=works
   product=meat

but if craft should be considered, can be
   craft=meat
   an accepted kv combination?

Is craft just whoever runs the business or the final processed product? Or both?

Other tagging alternatives?

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Re: craft VS man_made

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by cascafico


Am Mo., 2. Dez. 2019 um 09:44 Uhr schrieb Cascafico Giovanni <[hidden email]>:
Hello ML!


in Italy there are several small processing companies catalogued as
artisans, mostly in categories like food processing (meat, biscuits,
milk, etc), which don't run a shop (or shop is a minor business).
Reading the wikis, I understand that, depending on business volumes, I
should go for craft.


+1



For instance, I have a dataset with several companies processing of
pork meat, which final product is "prosciutto crudo" ("raw" maturated
ham) and/or salami.

AFAIK in case of an industrial scale business tagging could be
   man_made=works
   product=meat


not sure about "product", in Italian these would not be called "meat" but "salumi" (maybe "cold cuts"), and the people producing cold cuts would not be the same (usually) as the butchers that prepare meat (e.g. in Italy or AFAIK in France, while in Germany both is done by butchers, not sure about Britain). Maybe product=cold_cuts would suit better, as this is not about "raw meat" (which would need cooking) but about a meat product ready to eat.

 

but if craft should be considered, can be
   craft=meat
   an accepted kv combination?


for the "craft" value I would go by the profession, not the product. It could still make sense to have a subtag for the kind of product, e.g. product=salami;raw_ham or bresaola, mortadella, roast beef, etc. (especially if they only produce very few different types and this is not changing significantly over time).
Maybe the native speakers can provide a suitable term for the profession (I've found the French term charcutier used in English, which may be an indice that they do not distinguish either).

Cheers
Martin

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Re: craft VS man_made

Warin
In reply to this post by voschix
On 02/12/19 20:47, Volker Schmidt wrote:
I would add that in the case of a "prosciuttificio" (small factory that produces raw cured ham) in many cases these processing plants buy the meat and run only the curing process, which takes more than a year. They may also have a shop or only resell.
So we are talking about a small very specialised meat-processing facility.
The official EU translation site https://iate.europa.eu/ translates "prosciuttificio" (and "salumificio", which produces salami) with "ham factory".
If the EU gives that as official translation, then this should be good enough for OSM.

I would certainly not use "man_made", but "craft", a least for the smaller ones. Hence I would suggest to start tagging them as "craft=ham_factory"
even though this is a new tag.

Umm the word factory in there is not great, I'd not associate craft with factory.

How about craft=ham_processor?
And that could be sub tagged with ham_process=prosciutto?

    

... and you should be grateful that the language of the OSM DB is not French, because in that case it would be "craft=
établissement_de_production_de_jambons"
:-)

Maybe a more generic approach could be
craft=meat_curing
product=ham

I'd be more specific with product=prosciutto.

But I do prefer 'craft=meat_curing' compared to 'craft=ham_factory/processor' as:

it can be applied to more things like jerky.

it is more specific than ham_processor/factory (this could be cooking, salting, slicing and packing)


Volker




On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 at 09:44, Cascafico Giovanni <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello ML!


in Italy there are several small processing companies catalogued as
artisans, mostly in categories like food processing (meat, biscuits,
milk, etc), which don't run a shop (or shop is a minor business).
Reading the wikis, I understand that, depending on business volumes, I
should go for craft.

For instance, I have a dataset with several companies processing of
pork meat, which final product is "prosciutto crudo" ("raw" maturated
ham) and/or salami.

AFAIK in case of an industrial scale business tagging could be
   man_made=works
   product=meat

but if craft should be considered, can be
   craft=meat
   an accepted kv combination?

I'd think 'meat' is more of a 'produce' than a 'product'?

Is craft just whoever runs the business or the final processed product? Or both?

Other tagging alternatives?

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Re: craft VS man_made

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 2. Dec 2019, at 11:28, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I'd be more specific with product=prosciutto.


prosciutto just means ham, a coarse distinction would be cooked prosciutto and dried (salted) raw prosciutto (prosciutto cotto and prosciutto crudo), which also implies very different preparation.

Cheers Martin
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Re: craft VS man_made

voschix
Martin, don't overdo this.
We don't map cafè espresso, cafè espresso macchiato, macchiatone, cappuccino, americano ....
:-)
Many of these prosciuttifici produce raw cured ham and smoked raw cured ham and some types of salami.
If you want you can put that in a list:
produce=A;B;C


On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 at 14:39, Martin Koppenhoefer <[hidden email]> wrote:


sent from a phone

> On 2. Dec 2019, at 11:28, Warin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I'd be more specific with product=prosciutto.


prosciutto just means ham, a coarse distinction would be cooked prosciutto and dried (salted) raw prosciutto (prosciutto cotto and prosciutto crudo), which also implies very different preparation.

Cheers Martin
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Re: craft VS man_made

dieterdreist


sent from a phone

> On 2. Dec 2019, at 19:02, Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Martin, don't overdo this.
> We don't map cafè espresso, cafè espresso macchiato, macchiatone, cappuccino, americano ....
> :-)
> Many of these prosciuttifici produce raw cured ham and smoked raw cured ham and some types of salami.
> If you want you can put that in a list:
> produce=A;B;C


yes, I completely agree we shouldn’t map all the varieties of prepared meat, but the main differences in the production process might merit distinction, like preparation of cured ham/meat vs. cooked ham, as well as the presence of a smoke facility could be interesting topics for subtags and useful outside of Italy as well (I guess cooked ham doesn’t have to mature, while producing cured ham will imply storage space for maturation).


Cheers Martin
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Re: craft VS man_made

Warin
On 03/12/19 07:06, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 2. Dec 2019, at 19:02, Volker Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Martin, don't overdo this.
>> We don't map cafè espresso, cafè espresso macchiato, macchiatone, cappuccino, americano ....
>> :-)
>> Many of these prosciuttifici produce raw cured ham and smoked raw cured ham and some types of salami.
>> If you want you can put that in a list:
>> produce=A;B;C
>
> yes, I completely agree we shouldn’t map all the varieties of prepared meat, but the main differences in the production process might merit distinction, like preparation of cured ham/meat vs. cooked ham, as well as the presence of a smoke facility could be interesting topics for subtags and useful outside of Italy as well (I guess cooked ham doesn’t have to mature, while producing cured ham will imply storage space for maturation).

I'm mixed on this but???

product=processed_meat (rather than =meat witch could be raw and therefore produce)

meat=beef/chicken/pig(or ham?)/turkey/venison/crocodile/kangaroo/emu/*

process=cooked/baked/microwaved/smoked/salted/*



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