diaper subkey for wheelchair toilets including a changing table

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diaper subkey for wheelchair toilets including a changing table

Valor Naram
Hello there,

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process#Proposal_list
guided me to you. I have the following situation: I want to tag a
changing table but this changing table is in the toilet room for
wheelchair users. The page at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:d
iaper states tagging for changing tables is just available in toilets
for women,-men and unisex but not in toilets for wheelchair users.

My question is: Is there any possibility to tag a changing table in a
toilet for wheelchair users similiar or equal to
'diaper:wheelchair="yes"' I didn't find such specification at https://w
iki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:diaper or it exists but isn't documented
yet. If such tagging doesn't exist, I will write a proposal for you to
discuss and vote on.


Cheerio

Sören alias Valor Naram.

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Re: diaper subkey for wheelchair toilets including a changing table

Paul Allen
On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 at 19:54, Valor Naram <[hidden email]> wrote:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process#Proposal_list
guided me to you. I have the following situation: I want to tag a
changing table but this changing table is in the toilet room for
wheelchair users. The page at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:d
iaper states tagging for changing tables is just available in toilets
for women,-men and unisex but not in toilets for wheelchair users.

At first glance I thought you wanted to tag places where people in wheelchairs
could change their own diapers.  Then I checked with the wiki page and
realized what you mean.

And then I realized diaper=* is not a good idea for a key.  In British English we call
them nappies (singular nappy), not diapers.   And what the toilet has is not a supply
of nappies (diapers) but a CHANGING TABLE.  Which is what you described it as,
because that's what it is.  And had the key been nappy_changing_table instead of diaper
I wouldn't have (briefly) misunderstood what you wanted to tag (a changing table in
a toilet for wheelchair users, not a place where wheelchair users can change their
own nappy).

I think this is a very bad tag.  I'm not sure I'm doing it right, but I can't find a proposal for this
tag.

My question is: Is there any possibility to tag a changing table in a
toilet for wheelchair users similiar or equal to
'diaper:wheelchair="yes"' I didn't find such specification at https://w
iki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:diaper or it exists but isn't documented
yet.

That fits in with the others, but I'm not convinced we should be trying to add to what I
consider to be a bad key.  I'd prefer to see a proposal for nappy_changing_table*=* or
something similar.  But I expect there will be many who disagree with me.

--
Paul


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Re: diaper subkey for wheelchair toilets including a changing table

marc marc
In reply to this post by Valor Naram
Le 18.04.19 à 20:53, Valor Naram a écrit :
> I want to tag a changing table but this changing table
> is in the toilet room for wheelchair users.

imho diaper is a little ugly : documented values are mix
of how many, what and where.

if I wanted to fill this in as precisely as you do,
I would do it like this :

1) If both toilets are mapped as a separated node
amenity=toilets
wheelchair=designated
diaper=yes

amenity=toilets
wheelchair=no
diaper=no

2) if both toilets are mapped as a single node
amenity=toilets
wheelchair=yes
diaper=yes
diaper:location=wheelchair_toilets

3= if toilet that belongs to an amenity or a building doesn't have it's
own object, for ex with a bar
amenity=bar
toilets:wheelchair=yes
diaper=yes
diaper:location=wheelchair_toilets
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Re: diaper subkey for wheelchair toilets including a changing table

bkil
This sounds reasonable.

On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 10:10 PM marc marc <[hidden email]> wrote:
Le 18.04.19 à 20:53, Valor Naram a écrit :
> I want to tag a changing table but this changing table
> is in the toilet room for wheelchair users.

imho diaper is a little ugly : documented values are mix
of how many, what and where.

if I wanted to fill this in as precisely as you do,
I would do it like this :

1) If both toilets are mapped as a separated node
amenity=toilets
wheelchair=designated
diaper=yes

amenity=toilets
wheelchair=no
diaper=no

2) if both toilets are mapped as a single node
amenity=toilets
wheelchair=yes
diaper=yes
diaper:location=wheelchair_toilets

3= if toilet that belongs to an amenity or a building doesn't have it's
own object, for ex with a bar
amenity=bar
toilets:wheelchair=yes
diaper=yes
diaper:location=wheelchair_toilets
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Re: diaper subkey for wheelchair toilets including a changing table

Warin
In reply to this post by Paul Allen
On 19/04/19 05:21, Paul Allen wrote:
On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 at 19:54, Valor Naram <[hidden email]> wrote:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process#Proposal_list
guided me to you. I have the following situation: I want to tag a
changing table but this changing table is in the toilet room for
wheelchair users. The page at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:d
iaper states tagging for changing tables is just available in toilets
for women,-men and unisex but not in toilets for wheelchair users.

At first glance I thought you wanted to tag places where people in wheelchairs
could change their own diapers.  Then I checked with the wiki page and
realized what you mean.

And then I realized diaper=* is not a good idea for a key.  In British English we call
them nappies (singular nappy), not diapers.   And what the toilet has is not a supply
of nappies (diapers) but a CHANGING TABLE.  Which is what you described it as,
because that's what it is.  And had the key been nappy_changing_table instead of diaper
I wouldn't have (briefly) misunderstood what you wanted to tag (a changing table in
a toilet for wheelchair users, not a place where wheelchair users can change their
own nappy).

+1 ... change table!

Wheelies (wheelchair users) also use catheters with bags. Much easier to deal with compared to a diaper.



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Re: diaper subkey for wheelchair toilets including a changing table

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Paul Allen


sent from a phone

On 18. Apr 2019, at 21:21, Paul Allen <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think this is a very bad tag.  I'm not sure I'm doing it right, but I can't find a proposal for this
tag.


I agree, and you can find related discussion also here:

Cheers, Martin 

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Re: diaper subkey for wheelchair toilets including a changing table

Valor Naram
In reply to this post by marc marc
> imho diaper is a little ugly [...]

Why?

> [...] documented values are mix of how many, what and where.

Sry, can't follow you. Can you explain me in other words what do you mean please.



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Tagging] diaper subkey for wheelchair toilets including a changing table
From: marc marc
To: [hidden email]
CC:


Le 18.04.19 à 20:53, Valor Naram a écrit :
> I want to tag a changing table but this changing table
> is in the toilet room for wheelchair users.

imho diaper is a little ugly : documented values are mix
of how many, what and where.

if I wanted to fill this in as precisely as you do,
I would do it like this :

1) If both toilets are mapped as a separated node
amenity=toilets
wheelchair=designated
diaper=yes

amenity=toilets
wheelchair=no
diaper=no

2) if both toilets are mapped as a single node
amenity=toilets
wheelchair=yes
diaper=yes
diaper:location=wheelchair_toilets

3= if toilet that belongs to an amenity or a building doesn't have it's
own object, for ex with a bar
amenity=bar
toilets:wheelchair=yes
diaper=yes
diaper:location=wheelchair_toilets
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Re: diaper subkey for wheelchair toilets including a changing table

Valor Naram
In reply to this post by Warin
> And then I realized diaper=* is not a good idea for a key.

But it is widely used (https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=diaper#keys) and the only key I know for the purpose of tagging changing tables. I also discovered that my suggestion `diaper:wheelchair` is already in use (but not documented yet).

> And what the toilet has is not a supply of nappies (diapers) but a CHANGING TABLE.

I agree with you! I also wondered about this but I accepted `diaper` for this purpose. So what do you suggest? Replacing the key `diaper` with `changing_table` without or with the consens of the others of the community would hurt apps like AndOSM and other platforms working with the `diaper` key e.g. Babykarte.



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Tagging] diaper subkey for wheelchair toilets including a changing table
From: Warin <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
CC:


On 19/04/19 05:21, Paul Allen wrote:
On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 at 19:54, Valor Naram <[hidden email]> wrote:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process#Proposal_list
guided me to you. I have the following situation: I want to tag a
changing table but this changing table is in the toilet room for
wheelchair users. The page at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:d
iaper states tagging for changing tables is just available in toilets
for women,-men and unisex but not in toilets for wheelchair users.

At first glance I thought you wanted to tag places where people in wheelchairs
could change their own diapers.  Then I checked with the wiki page and
realized what you mean.

And then I realized diaper=* is not a good idea for a key.  In British English we call
them nappies (singular nappy), not diapers.   And what the toilet has is not a supply
of nappies (diapers) but a CHANGING TABLE.  Which is what you described it as,
because that's what it is.  And had the key been nappy_changing_table instead of diaper
I wouldn't have (briefly) misunderstood what you wanted to tag (a changing table in
a toilet for wheelchair users, not a place where wheelchair users can change their
own nappy).

+1 ... change table!

Wheelies (wheelchair users) also use catheters with bags. Much easier to deal with compared to a diaper.



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Re: diaper subkey for wheelchair toilets including a changing table

marc marc
In reply to this post by Valor Naram
Le 19.04.19 à 10:28, Valor Naram a écrit :
>  > [...] documented values are mix of how many, what and where.
>
> Can you explain me in other words what do you mean please.

check https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:diaper

exemple 1 diaper=yes  ok

exemple 2 diaper=number of changing tables -> it's "how many"

exemple 3 diaper=bench  it's the quality of the infrastructure

exemple 4 diaper=room it's the localisation (in another room)

so the meaning of the diaper value is a mix, sometime the capacity,
sometime the quality, sometime the localisation.

if someone wanted to fill in all this information,
it would be better to divide it into several tags
for exemple
diaper=yes / no / limited (for the bench or any other poor quality
of the infrastructure)
diaper:capacity=number of changing tables
diaper:location=where it's located

 > `diaper:wheelchair` is already in use

yes but :wheelchair is often used to describe the accessibility
of a feature. :wheelchair=yes is not the same meaning a location=*
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Re: diaper subkey for wheelchair toilets including a changing table

Valor Naram
So you suggest to change the wiki via proposal? Then we have a problem which we should also be aware of. I quote myself:

> Replacing the key `diaper` with `changing_table` [or some other key or by any other changings how to tag changing tables] without or with the consens of the others of the community would hurt apps like AndOSM and other platforms working with the `diaper` key e.g. Babykarte.


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Tagging] diaper subkey for wheelchair toilets including a changing table
From: marc marc
To: [hidden email]
CC:


Le 19.04.19 à 10:28, Valor Naram a écrit :
> > [...] documented values are mix of how many, what and where.
>
> Can you explain me in other words what do you mean please.

check https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:diaper

exemple 1 diaper=yes ok

exemple 2 diaper=number of changing tables -> it's "how many"

exemple 3 diaper=bench it's the quality of the infrastructure

exemple 4 diaper=room it's the localisation (in another room)

so the meaning of the diaper value is a mix, sometime the capacity,
sometime the quality, sometime the localisation.

if someone wanted to fill in all this information,
it would be better to divide it into several tags
for exemple
diaper=yes / no / limited (for the bench or any other poor quality
of the infrastructure)
diaper:capacity=number of changing tables
diaper:location=where it's located

> `diaper:wheelchair` is already in use

yes but :wheelchair is often used to describe the accessibility
of a feature. :wheelchair=yes is not the same meaning a location=*
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Re: diaper subkey for wheelchair toilets including a changing table

Mateusz Konieczny-3
Apr 19, 2019, 11:57 AM by [hidden email]:
So you suggest to change the wiki via proposal? Then we have a problem which we should also be aware of. I quote myself:

> Replacing the key `diaper` with `changing_table` [or some other key or by any other changings how to tag changing tables] without or with the consens of the others of the community would hurt apps like AndOSM and other platforms working with the `diaper` key e.g. Babykarte.
Yes, that it is issue that is always present with deprecating already used tags.

If someone wants to do it then making proposal with vote is probably the best way to check
is it considered as a good idea. And one should not become irritated if the answer from the
community is "no".

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Re: diaper subkey for wheelchair toilets including a changing table

Valor Naram
In reply to this post by Warin
You (Warin) and marc marc made some suggestions on how to improve this key. I also found a workaround for the problem of

> [r]eplacing the key `diaper` with `changing_table` [or some other key or by any other changings how to tag changing tables] without or with the consens of the others of the community would hurt apps like AndOSM and other platforms working with the `diaper` key e.g. Babykarte.

I will write a proposal or should I first discuss my ideas with you instead?

Cheers

Sören alias Valor Naram


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Tagging] diaper subkey for wheelchair toilets including a changing table
From: Warin <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
CC:


On 19/04/19 05:21, Paul Allen wrote:
On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 at 19:54, Valor Naram <[hidden email]> wrote:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process#Proposal_list
guided me to you. I have the following situation: I want to tag a
changing table but this changing table is in the toilet room for
wheelchair users. The page at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:d
iaper states tagging for changing tables is just available in toilets
for women,-men and unisex but not in toilets for wheelchair users.

At first glance I thought you wanted to tag places where people in wheelchairs
could change their own diapers.  Then I checked with the wiki page and
realized what you mean.

And then I realized diaper=* is not a good idea for a key.  In British English we call
them nappies (singular nappy), not diapers.   And what the toilet has is not a supply
of nappies (diapers) but a CHANGING TABLE.  Which is what you described it as,
because that's what it is.  And had the key been nappy_changing_table instead of diaper
I wouldn't have (briefly) misunderstood what you wanted to tag (a changing table in
a toilet for wheelchair users, not a place where wheelchair users can change their
own nappy).

+1 ... change table!

Wheelies (wheelchair users) also use catheters with bags. Much easier to deal with compared to a diaper.



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Re: diaper subkey for wheelchair toilets including a changing table

marc marc
I encourage you to make a proposal if you want.

in reality the problem #1 is that some members of the community are very
cautious when there is a 1:1 change proposal to replace a bad
"not-low-usage" key with a new better key, including those who have
never filled one of this object in osm nor used the data about this
object :(
Maybe your proposal will pass sucess due it is changing one key
with several others.

the problem of existing applications (there are only 4 reported on
taginfo) is not a problem. it is possible to ask it to support the 2
keys for 1 month and to make a mass edition in the middle of the month.
but here again the problem is the timidity of some members

the small question that remains, should the key be called
baby_changing_table or changing_table? some people talked
about adult tables (I have a little trouble imagining an adult
on a table). that could avoid confusion


Le 19.04.19 à 22:46, Valor Naram a écrit :

> You (Warin) and marc marc made some suggestions on how to improve this
> key. I also found a workaround for the problem of
>
>  > [r]eplacing the key `diaper` with `changing_table` [or some other key
> or by any other changings how to tag changing tables] without or with
> the consens of the others of the community would hurt apps like AndOSM
> and other platforms working with the `diaper` key e.g. Babykarte.
>
> I will write a proposal or should I first discuss my ideas with you instead?
>
> Cheers
>
> Sören alias Valor Naram
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] diaper subkey for wheelchair toilets including a
> changing table
> From: Warin <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> CC:
>
>
>     On 19/04/19 05:21, Paul Allen wrote:
>>     On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 at 19:54, Valor Naram <[hidden email]
>>     <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>         https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process#Proposal_list
>>         guided me to you. I have the following situation: I want to tag a
>>         changing table but this changing table is in the toilet room for
>>         wheelchair users. The page at
>>         https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:d
>>         iaper states tagging for changing tables is just available in
>>         toilets
>>         for women,-men and unisex but not in toilets for wheelchair users.
>>
>>
>>     At first glance I thought you wanted to tag places where people in
>>     wheelchairs
>>     could change their own diapers.  Then I checked with the wiki page and
>>     realized what you mean.
>>
>>     And then I realized diaper=* is not a good idea for a key.  In
>>     British English we call
>>     them nappies (singular nappy), not diapers.   And what the toilet
>>     has is not a supply
>>     of nappies (diapers) but a CHANGING TABLE.  Which is what you
>>     described it as,
>>     because that's what it is.  And had the key been
>>     nappy_changing_table instead of diaper
>>     I wouldn't have (briefly) misunderstood what you wanted to tag (a
>>     changing table in
>>     a toilet for wheelchair users, not a place where wheelchair users
>>     can change their
>>     own nappy).
>
>     +1 ... change table!
>
>     Wheelies (wheelchair users) also use catheters with bags. Much
>     easier to deal with compared to a diaper.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>

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Re: diaper subkey for wheelchair toilets including a changing table

Tagging mailing list
I’m not a native speaker but I don’t think there will be any confusion when using changing_table. I don’t know of any changing tables for adults outside of nursing homes. In case of need we can add changing_table:for=adults.

Am Freitag, April 19, 2019, 11:06 PM schrieb marc marc <[hidden email]>:

I encourage you to make a proposal if you want.

in reality the problem #1 is that some members of the community are very
cautious when there is a 1:1 change proposal to replace a bad
"not-low-usage" key with a new better key, including those who have
never filled one of this object in osm nor used the data about this
object :(
Maybe your proposal will pass sucess due it is changing one key
with several others.

the problem of existing applications (there are only 4 reported on
taginfo) is not a problem. it is possible to ask it to support the 2
keys for 1 month and to make a mass edition in the middle of the month.
but here again the problem is the timidity of some members

the small question that remains, should the key be called
baby_changing_table or changing_table? some people talked
about adult tables (I have a little trouble imagining an adult
on a table). that could avoid confusion


Le 19.04.19 à 22:46, Valor Naram a écrit :

> You (Warin) and marc marc made some suggestions on how to improve this
> key. I also found a workaround for the problem of
>
>  > [r]eplacing the key `diaper` with `changing_table` [or some other key
> or by any other changings how to tag changing tables] without or with
> the consens of the others of the community would hurt apps like AndOSM
> and other platforms working with the `diaper` key e.g. Babykarte.
>
> I will write a proposal or should I first discuss my ideas with you instead?
>
> Cheers
>
> Sören alias Valor Naram
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] diaper subkey for wheelchair toilets including a
> changing table
> From: Warin <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> CC:
>
>
>    On 19/04/19 05:21, Paul Allen wrote:
>>    On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 at 19:54, Valor Naram <[hidden email]
>>    <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>        https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process#Proposal_list
>>        guided me to you. I have the following situation: I want to tag a
>>        changing table but this changing table is in the toilet room for
>>        wheelchair users. The page at
>>        https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:d
>>        iaper states tagging for changing tables is just available in
>>        toilets
>>        for women,-men and unisex but not in toilets for wheelchair users.
>>
>>
>>    At first glance I thought you wanted to tag places where people in
>>    wheelchairs
>>    could change their own diapers.  Then I checked with the wiki page and
>>    realized what you mean.
>>
>>    And then I realized diaper=* is not a good idea for a key.  In
>>    British English we call
>>    them nappies (singular nappy), not diapers.   And what the toilet
>>    has is not a supply
>>    of nappies (diapers) but a CHANGING TABLE.  Which is what you
>>    described it as,
>>    because that's what it is.  And had the key been
>>    nappy_changing_table instead of diaper
>>    I wouldn't have (briefly) misunderstood what you wanted to tag (a
>>    changing table in
>>    a toilet for wheelchair users, not a place where wheelchair users
>>    can change their
>>    own nappy).
>
>    +1 ... change table!
>
>    Wheelies (wheelchair users) also use catheters with bags. Much
>    easier to deal with compared to a diaper.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

>

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Re: diaper subkey for wheelchair toilets including a changing table

bkil
It is perfectly acceptable to come up with better tagging for established things and deprecate the old one, if we also invite downstream users from the start of the process (anyone?).

I didn't recall commenting on the talk page but looks like I had pretty good arguments. To accommodate rooms&tables, perhaps we could use nappy_changing=yes. Its scheme would then be:

1) If both toilets are mapped as a separated node:
amenity=toilets
wheelchair=designated
nappy_changing=yes

amenity=toilets
wheelchair=no
nappy_changing=no

2) if both toilets are mapped as a single node:
amenity=toilets
wheelchair=yes
nappy_changing=yes
nappy_changing:location=room/toilets/female_toilets/maie_toilets/wheelchair_toilets

3) if toilet that belongs to an amenity or a building doesn't have it's 
own object, for ex with a bar:
amenity=bar
toilets:wheelchair=yes
nappy_changing=yes
nappy_changing:location=room/toilets/female_toilets/maie_toilets/wheelchair_toilets

Other possible tags:
nappy_changing:for=adult/child
nappy_changing:capacity=<count of tables>
nappy_changing:fee=*
nappy_changing:access=*
nappy_changing:height=*
nappy_changing:vending/dispensing=nappies;rash_cream;powder;wet_wipe;gloves;hand_sanitizer;pad;motrin;tylenol;...
nappy_changing:services=bench;shelf;potty;pillow;pad;...

Is it correct that nappy_changing:location=toilets is equivalent to nappy_changing:location=unisex?


On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 11:20 PM Michael Brandtner via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:
I’m not a native speaker but I don’t think there will be any confusion when using changing_table. I don’t know of any changing tables for adults outside of nursing homes. In case of need we can add changing_table:for=adults.

Am Freitag, April 19, 2019, 11:06 PM schrieb marc marc <[hidden email]>:

I encourage you to make a proposal if you want.

in reality the problem #1 is that some members of the community are very
cautious when there is a 1:1 change proposal to replace a bad
"not-low-usage" key with a new better key, including those who have
never filled one of this object in osm nor used the data about this
object :(
Maybe your proposal will pass sucess due it is changing one key
with several others.

the problem of existing applications (there are only 4 reported on
taginfo) is not a problem. it is possible to ask it to support the 2
keys for 1 month and to make a mass edition in the middle of the month.
but here again the problem is the timidity of some members

the small question that remains, should the key be called
baby_changing_table or changing_table? some people talked
about adult tables (I have a little trouble imagining an adult
on a table). that could avoid confusion


Le 19.04.19 à 22:46, Valor Naram a écrit :

> You (Warin) and marc marc made some suggestions on how to improve this
> key. I also found a workaround for the problem of
>
>  > [r]eplacing the key `diaper` with `changing_table` [or some other key
> or by any other changings how to tag changing tables] without or with
> the consens of the others of the community would hurt apps like AndOSM
> and other platforms working with the `diaper` key e.g. Babykarte.
>
> I will write a proposal or should I first discuss my ideas with you instead?
>
> Cheers
>
> Sören alias Valor Naram
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] diaper subkey for wheelchair toilets including a
> changing table
> From: Warin <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> CC:
>
>
>    On 19/04/19 05:21, Paul Allen wrote:
>>    On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 at 19:54, Valor Naram <[hidden email]
>>    <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>        https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process#Proposal_list
>>        guided me to you. I have the following situation: I want to tag a
>>        changing table but this changing table is in the toilet room for
>>        wheelchair users. The page at
>>        https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:d
>>        iaper states tagging for changing tables is just available in
>>        toilets
>>        for women,-men and unisex but not in toilets for wheelchair users.
>>
>>
>>    At first glance I thought you wanted to tag places where people in
>>    wheelchairs
>>    could change their own diapers.  Then I checked with the wiki page and
>>    realized what you mean.
>>
>>    And then I realized diaper=* is not a good idea for a key.  In
>>    British English we call
>>    them nappies (singular nappy), not diapers.   And what the toilet
>>    has is not a supply
>>    of nappies (diapers) but a CHANGING TABLE.  Which is what you
>>    described it as,
>>    because that's what it is.  And had the key been
>>    nappy_changing_table instead of diaper
>>    I wouldn't have (briefly) misunderstood what you wanted to tag (a
>>    changing table in
>>    a toilet for wheelchair users, not a place where wheelchair users
>>    can change their
>>    own nappy).
>
>    +1 ... change table!
>
>    Wheelies (wheelchair users) also use catheters with bags. Much
>    easier to deal with compared to a diaper.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

>

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Re: diaper subkey for wheelchair toilets including a changing table

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by marc marc


sent from a phone

> On 19. Apr 2019, at 11:41, marc marc <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> exemple 1 diaper=yes  ok
>
> exemple 2 diaper=number of changing tables -> it's "how many"
>
> exemple 3 diaper=bench  it's the quality of the infrastructure
>
> exemple 4 diaper=room it's the localisation (in another room)
>
> so the meaning of the diaper value is a mix, sometime the capacity,
> sometime the quality, sometime the localisation.
>
> if someone wanted to fill in all this information,
> it would be better to divide it into several tags


or use multiple values,
diaper=1;bench;room

;-)


Cheers, Martin

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Re: diaper subkey for wheelchair toilets including a changing table

Warin
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3
On 19/04/19 20:23, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
Apr 19, 2019, 11:57 AM by [hidden email]:
So you suggest to change the wiki via proposal? Then we have a problem which we should also be aware of. I quote myself:

> Replacing the key `diaper` with `changing_table` [or some other key or by any other changings how to tag changing tables] without or with the consens of the others of the community would hurt apps like AndOSM and other platforms working with the `diaper` key e.g. Babykarte.
Yes, that it is issue that is always present with deprecating already used tags.

If someone wants to do it then making proposal with vote is probably the best way to check
is it considered as a good idea. And one should not become irritated if the answer from the
community is "no".

diaper=yes  ... means?

A place you can get a diaper?

A bin for disposal?

A changing table?

The tag implies nothing usefull itself. Would be better to have a tag that means what it is.

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Re: diaper subkey for wheelchair toilets including a changing table

Valor Naram
In reply to this post by bkil
Then wait for me. It will take me some time to write a proposal.


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Tagging] diaper subkey for wheelchair toilets including a changing table
From: bkil
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
CC:


It is perfectly acceptable to come up with better tagging for established things and deprecate the old one, if we also invite downstream users from the start of the process (anyone?).

I didn't recall commenting on the talk page but looks like I had pretty good arguments. To accommodate rooms&tables, perhaps we could use nappy_changing=yes. Its scheme would then be:

1) If both toilets are mapped as a separated node:
amenity=toilets
wheelchair=designated
nappy_changing=yes

amenity=toilets
wheelchair=no
nappy_changing=no

2) if both toilets are mapped as a single node:
amenity=toilets
wheelchair=yes
nappy_changing=yes
nappy_changing:location=room/toilets/female_toilets/maie_toilets/wheelchair_toilets

3) if toilet that belongs to an amenity or a building doesn't have it's 
own object, for ex with a bar:
amenity=bar
toilets:wheelchair=yes
nappy_changing=yes
nappy_changing:location=room/toilets/female_toilets/maie_toilets/wheelchair_toilets

Other possible tags:
nappy_changing:for=adult/child
nappy_changing:capacity=<count of tables>
nappy_changing:fee=*
nappy_changing:access=*
nappy_changing:height=*
nappy_changing:vending/dispensing=nappies;rash_cream;powder;wet_wipe;gloves;hand_sanitizer;pad;motrin;tylenol;...
nappy_changing:services=bench;shelf;potty;pillow;pad;...

Is it correct that nappy_changing:location=toilets is equivalent to nappy_changing:location=unisex?


On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 11:20 PM Michael Brandtner via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:
I’m not a native speaker but I don’t think there will be any confusion when using changing_table. I don’t know of any changing tables for adults outside of nursing homes. In case of need we can add changing_table:for=adults.

Am Freitag, April 19, 2019, 11:06 PM schrieb marc marc <[hidden email]>:

I encourage you to make a proposal if you want.

in reality the problem #1 is that some members of the community are very
cautious when there is a 1:1 change proposal to replace a bad
"not-low-usage" key with a new better key, including those who have
never filled one of this object in osm nor used the data about this
object :(
Maybe your proposal will pass sucess due it is changing one key
with several others.

the problem of existing applications (there are only 4 reported on
taginfo) is not a problem. it is possible to ask it to support the 2
keys for 1 month and to make a mass edition in the middle of the month.
but here again the problem is the timidity of some members

the small question that remains, should the key be called
baby_changing_table or changing_table? some people talked
about adult tables (I have a little trouble imagining an adult
on a table). that could avoid confusion


Le 19.04.19 à 22:46, Valor Naram a écrit :

> You (Warin) and marc marc made some suggestions on how to improve this
> key. I also found a workaround for the problem of
>
>  > [r]eplacing the key `diaper` with `changing_table` [or some other key
> or by any other changings how to tag changing tables] without or with
> the consens of the others of the community would hurt apps like AndOSM
> and other platforms working with the `diaper` key e.g. Babykarte.
>
> I will write a proposal or should I first discuss my ideas with you instead?
>
> Cheers
>
> Sören alias Valor Naram
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] diaper subkey for wheelchair toilets including a
> changing table
> From: Warin <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> CC:
>
>
>    On 19/04/19 05:21, Paul Allen wrote:
>>    On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 at 19:54, Valor Naram <[hidden email]
>>    <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>        https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process#Proposal_list
>>        guided me to you. I have the following situation: I want to tag a
>>        changing table but this changing table is in the toilet room for
>>        wheelchair users. The page at
>>        https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:d
>>        iaper states tagging for changing tables is just available in
>>        toilets
>>        for women,-men and unisex but not in toilets for wheelchair users.
>>
>>
>>    At first glance I thought you wanted to tag places where people in
>>    wheelchairs
>>    could change their own diapers.  Then I checked with the wiki page and
>>    realized what you mean.
>>
>>    And then I realized diaper=* is not a good idea for a key.  In
>>    British English we call
>>    them nappies (singular nappy), not diapers.   And what the toilet
>>    has is not a supply
>>    of nappies (diapers) but a CHANGING TABLE.  Which is what you
>>    described it as,
>>    because that's what it is.  And had the key been
>>    nappy_changing_table instead of diaper
>>    I wouldn't have (briefly) misunderstood what you wanted to tag (a
>>    changing table in
>>    a toilet for wheelchair users, not a place where wheelchair users
>>    can change their
>>    own nappy).
>
>    +1 ... change table!
>
>    Wheelies (wheelchair users) also use catheters with bags. Much
>    easier to deal with compared to a diaper.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

>

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Re: diaper subkey for wheelchair toilets including a changing table

marc marc
In reply to this post by bkil
Le 20.04.19 à 00:36, bkil a écrit :
> Is it correct that nappy_changing:location=toilets is equivalent to
> nappy_changing:location=unisex?

not really, having a changing table somewhere in the toilet area doesn't
give any information about whether these toilets are unisex or not
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Re: diaper subkey for wheelchair toilets including a changing table

bkil
Well, the place I had in mind only had a unisex toilet - a single, unsegregated entrance with possible multiple booths. In this case, the two are equivalent. If there exist two entrances: one unisex and one wheelchair, then it is reasonable to differentiate the two.

On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 12:27 AM marc marc <[hidden email]> wrote:
Le 20.04.19 à 00:36, bkil a écrit :
> Is it correct that nappy_changing:location=toilets is equivalent to
> nappy_changing:location=unisex?

not really, having a changing table somewhere in the toilet area doesn't
give any information about whether these toilets are unisex or not
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12