emergency=ambulance_station vs amenity=fire_station

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emergency=ambulance_station vs amenity=fire_station

Tagging mailing list
Hi

Simple question (which I presume has been previously discussed) :

Why the different key tags to describe what are essentially synonymous
entities?

DaveF

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Re: emergency=ambulance_station vs amenity=fire_station

Jan Michel
On 10.11.19 13:51, Dave F via Tagging wrote:
> Hi
>
> Simple question (which I presume has been previously discussed) :
>
> Why the different key tags to describe what are essentially synonymous
> entities?

One of them takes care to put out fires, the other transports you to
hospital. There are regions where the two are mostly combined, but in
other places these are completly separate organizations.

E.g. in Germany they are mostly combined in the larger cities, but
usually separated in smaller towns. That's related to having
professional fire fighters and stations that are always manned compared
to volunteers who have to gather first.


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Re: emergency=ambulance_station vs amenity=fire_station

Philip Barnes
On Sun, 2019-11-10 at 14:14 +0100, Jan Michel wrote:

> On 10.11.19 13:51, Dave F via Tagging wrote:
> > Hi
> >
> > Simple question (which I presume has been previously discussed) :
> >
> > Why the different key tags to describe what are essentially
> > synonymous
> > entities?
>
> One of them takes care to put out fires, the other transports you to
> hospital. There are regions where the two are mostly combined, but
> in
> other places these are completly separate organizations.
>
> E.g. in Germany they are mostly combined in the larger cities, but
> usually separated in smaller towns. That's related to having
> professional fire fighters and stations that are always manned
> compared
> to volunteers who have to gather first.
>
In the UK there area many more Fire Stations, so likely mapped much
earlier before the emergency tag happened.

Phil (trigpoint)


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Re: emergency=ambulance_station vs amenity=fire_station

Greg Troxel-2
In reply to this post by Jan Michel
Jan Michel <[hidden email]> writes:

> On 10.11.19 13:51, Dave F via Tagging wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> Simple question (which I presume has been previously discussed) :
>>
>> Why the different key tags to describe what are essentially
>> synonymous entities?
>
> One of them takes care to put out fires, the other transports you to
> hospital. There are regions where the two are mostly combined, but in
> other places these are completly separate organizations.
>
> E.g. in Germany they are mostly combined in the larger cities, but
> usually separated in smaller towns. That's related to having
> professional fire fighters and stations that are always manned
> compared to volunteers who have to gather first.

The sometimes-together sometimes-separate notion is also true in the US.

Typically, a Fire Department (sometimes called Fire Rescue) will also
operate ambulances.  Often these are painted like fire trucks, and the
staff are qualified as both firefighters and EMTs, employed as
firefighers, and in the IAFF/etc.  Almost always the station that houses
an ambulance has other fire equipment and thus these are "fire
stations".  These ambulances operate on the FD radio frequencies and are
dispatched as fire units.

Sometimes, these ambulances are Advanced Life Support (ALS), also called
paramedics.  When operated by fire departments, staff are typically both
firefighers and EMT-P.

Fairly typically, there are separate non-transporting paramedic units,
basically 2 EMT-Ps with gear in an SUV.  These are often not operated by
fire departments, and the people are EMT-P but usually not trained as
firefighters (unless they have one job with a FD and one with an
ambulance company, not so unusual).

In some towns, the fire department does fire fighting and "heavy
rescue"/"technical rescue" but not ambulances and they arrange with
ambulance companies for ambulance and paramedic services.

Not that you brought this up, but there are also fire department units
called "Rescue" that are big trucks with specialized equipment for
jacking up cars to get people out from under them, cutting them out of
cars, ropes for high places, confined space rescue, etc.




In some places, and in my experience this is in larger cities only (e.g,
Boston), there is a separate "Emergency Medical Services" department
which staffs ambulances and paramedic units.  In NYC, it's a separate
part of the fire department.  The staff are not firefighters and wear
different uniforms.  In Worcester, it's run by a university-associated
hospital and acts like a city EMS department but technically is
contracted.  The place where those ambulances are staged would not be
called "fire station".


So I agree these tags should be kept separate.  As for emergency= and
amenity=, that's a historical artifact and doesn't matter.

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Re: emergency=ambulance_station vs amenity=fire_station

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Jan Michel


sent from a phone

> On 10. Nov 2019, at 14:16, Jan Michel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> E.g. in Germany they are mostly combined in the larger cities, but usually separated in smaller towns. That's related to having professional fire fighters and stations that are always manned compared to volunteers who have to gather first.


ambulance / rescue services in Germany are (often?) assigned through a call for tenders competition every x years, while fire stations are not in competition (AFAIK) but organized by the government.

Cheers Martin
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Re: emergency=ambulance_station vs amenity=fire_station

Graeme Fitzpatrick
In reply to this post by Greg Troxel-2


On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 at 02:54, Greg Troxel <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 10.11.19 13:51, Dave F via Tagging wrote:

>> Why the different key tags to describe what are essentially
>> synonymous entities?

So I agree these tags should be kept separate.

 I don't think Dave was suggesting that they be merged?

 As for emergency= and amenity=, that's a historical artifact and doesn't matter.

Though I have often wondered why amenity=police & amenity=fire_station both render, but emergency=ambulance_station doesn't?

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: emergency=ambulance_station vs amenity=fire_station

Mateusz Konieczny-3



10 Nov 2019, 22:23 by [hidden email]:
Though I have often wondered why amenity=police & amenity=fire_station both render, but emergency=ambulance_station doesn't?
It is offtopic for tagging mailing list, especially as it depends on map.

The best that you can do is to check issue tracker of map style/app/???
(if public) or contact maintainers of this project in other ways.

Hard to say more without information about specific project where this happens.

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Re: emergency=ambulance_station vs amenity=fire_station

Joseph Eisenberg
If this is about Openstreetmap-carto, there is now an open issue:
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/3968 - note
that rendering area features in the "emergency=" key, like this, would
require reloading the database on the openstreetmap.org servers.

- Joseph Eisenberg

On 11/11/19, Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
> 10 Nov 2019, 22:23 by [hidden email]:
>
>> Though I have often wondered why amenity=police & amenity=fire_station
>> both render, but emergency=ambulance_station doesn't?
>>
> It is offtopic for tagging mailing list, especially as it depends on map.
>
> The best that you can do is to check issue tracker of map style/app/???
> (if public) or contact maintainers of this project in other ways.
>
> Hard to say more without information about specific project where this
> happens.
>

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Re: emergency=ambulance_station vs amenity=fire_station

Tagging mailing list
In reply to this post by Greg Troxel-2
On 10/11/2019 16:53, Greg Troxel wrote:
>
> So I agree these tags should be kept separate.

I'm struggling to comprehend how a question I deliberately kept simple
at just one sentence long can cause so much misinterpretation.

>   As for emergency= and
> amenity=, that's a historical artifact and doesn't matter.

That just makes it historically wrong. Being incorrect for a long time
isn't a reason not to fix it. Having two different keys to describe
entities which come under the heading 'emergency services' is confusing
to experienced OSMers let alone newbies.

As emergency=ambulance_station appears to be a later invention, was
there a valid reason fire_station did follow suit?

DaveF

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Re: emergency=ambulance_station vs amenity=fire_station

Tagging mailing list
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
On 11/11/2019 02:20, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> If this is about Openstreetmap-carto, there is now an open issue:
> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/3968 - note
> that rendering area features in the "emergency=" key, like this, would
> require reloading the database on the openstreetmap.org servers.


it wasn't about rendering really, it was just the illogical use of keys
making it more awkward for all database users.

I gave up on referring to anything relating to OSM-carto issues for
precisely the reason you highlight - to render
emergency=ambulance_station It requires a database reload which is only
performed "*every few years*". #Ridiculous


DaveF

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Re: emergency=ambulance_station vs amenity=fire_station

Paul Allen
In reply to this post by Tagging mailing list
On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 at 14:22, Dave F via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:

As emergency=ambulance_station appears to be a later invention, was
there a valid reason fire_station did follow suit?

Presumably because the icon looks like a firepit.  Or maybe an eternal flame.  Or maybe
a flammable chemical site.  So everyone goes there to sit around the firepit.  Or admire
the eternal flame.  Or wait to see the chemical site explode.  So it's an amenity.

Joking aside, the carto people appear to have a fixed rule of "no synonyms."  A very good rule
in many situations as we don't want more than one way of mapping the exact same thing.
However, it seems problematic in cases like this where there is broad agreement that we
should replace amenity=fire_station with emergency=fire_station and that the 1:1
correspondence means it could even be considered for an automated edit.  It would
seem that TEMPORARILY allowing a synonym in this case would be a sensible thing
to do.  Render both until editors have made the change and most occurrences in the
db have been updated, then only render emergency=fire_station.

There are other cases where a policy of temporarily allowing synonyms in order to
rationalizing tagging would be useful: landuse=grass vs landcover=grass comes to mind.

As things stand, though, emergency=fire_station doesn't render and (without a change in
policy by carto) will never render, so mappers won't use it, so you'll just have to live with
the confusion.  And the further confusion from the icon being completely misleading.
 
--
Paul


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Re: emergency=ambulance_station vs amenity=fire_station

Joseph Eisenberg
In reply to this post by Tagging mailing list
DaveF, reloading the database could be done more often, but it does
take time and server resources, and everyone is a volunteer. People
can help by donating money to the OSMF to help run the servers, or
donating time to help improve the openstreetmap.org website
infrastructure.

At Openstreetmap-carto there are over 400 open issues
(https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues), and a
particular request is more likely to happen if a contributor
volunteers to do the work. In this case the first step would be to
decide which tags under `emergency=` should be treated as polygons
when mapped as closed ways, and then submitting a PR (pull request) to
add these for the next database reload, which might happen soon, if
enough people are interested in making it happen.

- Joseph Eisenberg

On 11/11/19, Dave F via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 11/11/2019 02:20, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>> If this is about Openstreetmap-carto, there is now an open issue:
>> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/3968 - note
>> that rendering area features in the "emergency=" key, like this, would
>> require reloading the database on the openstreetmap.org servers.
>
>
> it wasn't about rendering really, it was just the illogical use of keys
> making it more awkward for all database users.
>
> I gave up on referring to anything relating to OSM-carto issues for
> precisely the reason you highlight - to render
> emergency=ambulance_station It requires a database reload which is only
> performed "*every few years*". #Ridiculous
>
>
> DaveF
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>

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Re: emergency=ambulance_station vs amenity=fire_station

marc marc
Le 11.11.19 à 15:44, Joseph Eisenberg a écrit :
> decide which tags under `emergency=` should be treated as polygons
> when mapped as closed ways

is this information not already present on the wiki pages? for example
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aemergency%3Dambulance_station
onArea=yes

Of course, osm-carto need to convert/parse those infos
and maybe some values doesn't have it yet.

Regards,
Marc
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Re: emergency=ambulance_station vs amenity=fire_station

Mateusz Konieczny-3



11 Nov 2019, 16:05 by [hidden email]:
Le 11.11.19 à 15:44, Joseph Eisenberg a écrit :
decide which tags under `emergency=` should be treated as polygons
when mapped as closed ways

is this information not already present on the wiki pages? for example
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aemergency%3Dambulance_station
onArea=yes
It is, but code of OSM Carto is at
and AFAIK relevant polygon code is mostly in
file with some prepared not deployed code at
(schema changed branch).

OSM Carto developers are using OSM Wiki and other documentation but
OSM Wiki is not a runnable code that can be directly used to make map.
Or even something that can be used without verification.

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Re: emergency=ambulance_station vs amenity=fire_station

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Tagging mailing list


Am Mo., 11. Nov. 2019 um 15:22 Uhr schrieb Dave F via Tagging <[hidden email]>:
On 10/11/2019 16:53, Greg Troxel wrote:
>
> So I agree these tags should be kept separate.

I'm struggling to comprehend how a question I deliberately kept simple
at just one sentence long can cause so much misinterpretation.



maybe your question was too simple / brief and led to people misinterpreting what you actually asked. It seemed you were questioning that fire stations and ambulance stations should get different tags, and this may not have seemed completely off, as fire stations indeed often provide ambulance emergency services as well.

If your question was intended like "why are fire station under the amenity key and ambulance stations under the emergency key?", the answer would have probably been that for many years, some people have been running around telling the others "amenity" was (almost) full and we should spread the tags under different keys (it was a not so rare notion for years, although it is now some time that somebody has written amenity was "overcrowded", so there is hope this fud is overcome).

 
>   As for emergency= and
> amenity=, that's a historical artifact and doesn't matter.

That just makes it historically wrong. Being incorrect for a long time
isn't a reason not to fix it. Having two different keys to describe
entities which come under the heading 'emergency services' is confusing
to experienced OSMers let alone newbies.


actually, both do not come only under "emergency services", for examples most ambulances are not operated in emergency mode (but to transport ill people from one hospital to another, or similar), and fire brigades also have a significant amount of other work, at least in some places, e.g. evaluating building applications (e.g. in Germany public buildings and those accessible to the public and generally buildings with many people in them, like high rise buildings).
Also, if "emergency" features should be those that are relevant in an emergency, while ambulance stations and fire stations are relevant for organizing emergency response, they are typically not important for people that are hit by an emergency: neither would you have to go to a fire station if your house is on fire, nor would you go to an ambulance station if you need emergency treatment. They are not comparable to emergency departments or similar.
 
Cheers
Martin

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Re: emergency=ambulance_station vs amenity=fire_station

Tagging mailing list
In reply to this post by Joseph Eisenberg
We are (almost) all volunteers, Joseph. It's irritating that this claim
is repeatedly rolled out as an excuse.

I'm increasingly disappointed my *voluntary* contributions to the OSM
database are are not being fairly or accurately being represented by
OSM-Carto due to errors in the programming. It's ridiculous these errors
(many of the 400 open issues) can't be fixed "for many years".

Is OSM-Carto fit to be promoted as OSM's flagship, de-facto rendering?

Please get back to me when OSM-Carto has a valid reason for not
rendering disused bridges.

DaveF

On 11/11/2019 14:44, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

> DaveF, reloading the database could be done more often, but it does
> take time and server resources, and everyone is a volunteer. People
> can help by donating money to the OSMF to help run the servers, or
> donating time to help improve the openstreetmap.org website
> infrastructure.
>
> At Openstreetmap-carto there are over 400 open issues
> (https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues), and a
> particular request is more likely to happen if a contributor
> volunteers to do the work. In this case the first step would be to
> decide which tags under `emergency=` should be treated as polygons
> when mapped as closed ways, and then submitting a PR (pull request) to
> add these for the next database reload, which might happen soon, if
> enough people are interested in making it happen.
>
> - Joseph Eisenberg
>
> On 11/11/19, Dave F via Tagging <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 11/11/2019 02:20, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>>> If this is about Openstreetmap-carto, there is now an open issue:
>>> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/3968 - note
>>> that rendering area features in the "emergency=" key, like this, would
>>> require reloading the database on the openstreetmap.org servers.
>>
>> it wasn't about rendering really, it was just the illogical use of keys
>> making it more awkward for all database users.
>>
>> I gave up on referring to anything relating to OSM-carto issues for
>> precisely the reason you highlight - to render
>> emergency=ambulance_station It requires a database reload which is only
>> performed "*every few years*". #Ridiculous
>>
>>
>> DaveF
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tagging mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>


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Re: emergency=ambulance_station vs amenity=fire_station

dieterdreist
Am Di., 12. Nov. 2019 um 11:49 Uhr schrieb Dave F via Tagging <[hidden email]>:
We are (almost) all volunteers, Joseph. It's irritating that this claim
is repeatedly rolled out as an excuse.

I'm increasingly disappointed my *voluntary* contributions to the OSM
database are are not being fairly or accurately being represented by
OSM-Carto due to errors in the programming. It's ridiculous these errors
(many of the 400 open issues) can't be fixed "for many years".

Is OSM-Carto fit to be promoted as OSM's flagship, de-facto rendering?


Dave, I find it extremely unfair to write this explicitly to Joseph, because he is one of the very active contributors to OSM-carto at the moment and has tackled a lot of issues.
 


Please get back to me when OSM-Carto has a valid reason for not
rendering disused bridges.


how are you tagging them? What do you mean by "disused" bridges? Could they still be used, or would it be dangerous?

Cheers
Martin


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Re: emergency=ambulance_station vs amenity=fire_station

Andy Townsend
On 12/11/2019 11:20, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
Am Di., 12. Nov. 2019 um 11:49 Uhr schrieb Dave F via Tagging <[hidden email]>:

Is OSM-Carto fit to be promoted as OSM's flagship, de-facto rendering?


Dave, I find it extremely unfair to write this explicitly to Joseph, because he is one of the very active contributors to OSM-carto at the moment and has tackled a lot of issues.
 

Agreed - as has been said many times before, you can't have one map style that "looks nice", "shows everything" and "works everywhere".

OSM Carto is one map style that by definition is a compromise.  Other map styles are available, at least one of which that I can think of (mine) addresses the issues that you have raised - but does so by making different compromses - it fails elsewhere in the world and for other target usage, so it simply isn't suitable as an "everywhere in the world" style.

Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: emergency=ambulance_station vs amenity=fire_station

Mateusz Konieczny-3
In reply to this post by Tagging mailing list

12 Nov 2019, 11:47 by [hidden email]:
We are (almost) all volunteers, Joseph. It's irritating that this claim is repeatedly rolled out as an excuse.
You are not entitled to map renderer focusing issues that you consider important.

You have no right to demand that other will spend their free time on something just because it
is important to you.

In exactly the same way as I have no right to demand that you will make trip to Kraków, Poland
to map bicycle parkings there.
I'm increasingly disappointed my *voluntary* contributions to the OSM database are are not being fairly or accurately being represented by OSM-Carto due to errors in the programming. It's ridiculous these errors (many of the 400 open issues) can't be fixed "for many years".
FYI:
- any serious softawe project has many open issues, often for many years
- improving OSM Carto is not mandatory for anyone
- this kind of hostile and entitled comments are discouraging participation, especially for new
potential developers
Is OSM-Carto fit to be promoted as OSM's flagship, de-facto rendering?
Feel free to make a better one.
Please get back to me when OSM-Carto has a valid reason for not rendering disused bridges.
Done already.

OSM Carto renders bridges tagged with man_made=bridge (and bridges on railway=disused).

(at least thanks to this part I can pretend that this is not 100% offtopic)
----

To repeat: you are entitled to some things but "other people will consider my desires in topic of
OSM map render as the most important thing in their life" is not a human right.

If you want to encourage other to work on OSM Carto map style (or other map style) then
I would recommend to avoid hostile, entitled complaints for a start.

----

And if someone wonders why iD developers deeply dislike mailing lists - probably this
kind of comments is justified part of it.

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