handling street names in speech

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handling street names in speech

john whelan-2
One or two are problematic usually as the street name is an abbreviation.    For example 1e Avenue in French meaning First Avenue.

Any suggestions on how these should be handled?  This particular application is aimed at partially sighted people but I feel we should be able to come up with a generic solution.

Thanks John



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Re: handling street names in speech

Nuno Caldeira
in Portugal the community has agreed not to use abreviations. 

A terça, 16/07/2019, 15:58, John Whelan <[hidden email]> escreveu:
One or two are problematic usually as the street name is an abbreviation.    For example 1e Avenue in French meaning First Avenue.

Any suggestions on how these should be handled?  This particular application is aimed at partially sighted people but I feel we should be able to come up with a generic solution.

Thanks John



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Re: handling street names in speech

Mateusz Konieczny-3
The same happened in Poland, abbreviations are expanded.


16 Jul 2019, 17:02 by [hidden email]:
in Portugal the community has agreed not to use abreviations. 

A terça, 16/07/2019, 15:58, John Whelan <[hidden email]> escreveu:
One or two are problematic usually as the street name is an abbreviation.    For example 1e Avenue in French meaning First Avenue.

Any suggestions on how these should be handled?  This particular application is aimed at partially sighted people but I feel we should be able to come up with a generic solution.

Thanks John




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Re: handling street names in speech

Colin Smale
In reply to this post by john whelan-2

On 2019-07-16 16:54, John Whelan wrote:

One or two are problematic usually as the street name is an abbreviation.    For example 1e Avenue in French meaning First Avenue.

Any suggestions on how these should be handled?  This particular application is aimed at partially sighted people but I feel we should be able to come up with a generic solution.

Some kind of phonetic (IPA?) representation would be the ultimate generic solution. Here in NL (and I guess in many other countries) there are street names which are partially or entirely in other languages, and the expectation is that they are pronounced as such. For example, Boeing Avenue would sound completely weird if it were pronounced according to Dutch rules. Truly multi-lingual countries like Belgium and Switzerland should be able to make use of name:XX.

If we had name:XX:ipa=* we would have a place to put it, but the client app would need to have a way of turning that into sounds. It will only be needed if the pronunciation deviates from the standard for the language in question, but speech synthesisers are never perfect and often make mistakes....

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/264239/is-there-any-online-tool-to-read-pronounce-ipa-and-apa-written-words

Of course we will also need a way of entering IPA symbols....



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Re: handling street names in speech

Stefan Baebler
In reply to this post by Mateusz Konieczny-3
Hints to the speaker (human or TTS engine) can be provided via: 
2) teach it how to expand appreviations in different languages, eg https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Name_finder:Abbreviations
3) Both :)

br,
Štefan

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 5:23 PM Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
The same happened in Poland, abbreviations are expanded.


16 Jul 2019, 17:02 by [hidden email]:
in Portugal the community has agreed not to use abreviations. 

A terça, 16/07/2019, 15:58, John Whelan <[hidden email]> escreveu:
One or two are problematic usually as the street name is an abbreviation.    For example 1e Avenue in French meaning First Avenue.

Any suggestions on how these should be handled?  This particular application is aimed at partially sighted people but I feel we should be able to come up with a generic solution.

Thanks John




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Re: handling street names in speech

john whelan-2
In reply to this post by Colin Smale
This approach I like.  Name:expanded perhaps?

To go back to earlier ideas.

Expanding the name sounds sensible but unfortunately the street signs are posted with the abbreviation and some local mappers have a what is on the sign goes in the map mentality.  Also we have had discussions about street names in Canada before and the decision was what the municipality declares the street name is correct.  That was to do with either "rue Sparks" or should it be "Rue Sparks" in Quebec it would be one way but in Ontario the other.

Thoughts

Thanks John 

Colin Smale wrote on 2019-07-16 11:30 AM:

On 2019-07-16 16:54, John Whelan wrote:

One or two are problematic usually as the street name is an abbreviation.    For example 1e Avenue in French meaning First Avenue.

Any suggestions on how these should be handled?  This particular application is aimed at partially sighted people but I feel we should be able to come up with a generic solution.

Some kind of phonetic (IPA?) representation would be the ultimate generic solution. Here in NL (and I guess in many other countries) there are street names which are partially or entirely in other languages, and the expectation is that they are pronounced as such. For example, Boeing Avenue would sound completely weird if it were pronounced according to Dutch rules. Truly multi-lingual countries like Belgium and Switzerland should be able to make use of name:XX.

If we had name:XX:ipa=* we would have a place to put it, but the client app would need to have a way of turning that into sounds. It will only be needed if the pronunciation deviates from the standard for the language in question, but speech synthesisers are never perfect and often make mistakes....

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/264239/is-there-any-online-tool-to-read-pronounce-ipa-and-apa-written-words

Of course we will also need a way of entering IPA symbols....




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Re: handling street names in speech

john whelan-2
In reply to this post by Stefan Baebler
I think this one has nailed it.

Thanks John

On Tue, 16 Jul 2019 at 11:36, Stefan Baebler <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hints to the speaker (human or TTS engine) can be provided via: 
2) teach it how to expand appreviations in different languages, eg https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Name_finder:Abbreviations
3) Both :)

br,
Štefan

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 5:23 PM Mateusz Konieczny <[hidden email]> wrote:
The same happened in Poland, abbreviations are expanded.


16 Jul 2019, 17:02 by [hidden email]:
in Portugal the community has agreed not to use abreviations. 

A terça, 16/07/2019, 15:58, John Whelan <[hidden email]> escreveu:
One or two are problematic usually as the street name is an abbreviation.    For example 1e Avenue in French meaning First Avenue.

Any suggestions on how these should be handled?  This particular application is aimed at partially sighted people but I feel we should be able to come up with a generic solution.

Thanks John




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Re: handling street names in speech

Colin Smale
In reply to this post by john whelan-2

The reason for wanting to expand abbreviations in OSM is surely to avoid ambiguity, not specifically to aid pronunciation or recognition. In the case of "1e ..." in a certain language context, would that not be unambiguous? Would a speech synthesiser not know how it should be spoken in its working language?

Slight digression: The question does arise of which rules to use to pronounce foreign names. If I am in Warsaw for example and my satnav started pronouncing street names in pure Polish I might not recognise any of them (apologies to any Poles in the audience). But how would it speak such that I would recognise it, if I was looking for a string with loads of Ws and Zs that means nothing to me? Use English rules to pronounce a Polish word?

On the other hand, if I was in Paris, I would expect it to use French rules, because I understand French and using English rules would sound weird although it might well give a lot of laughs...

 


On 2019-07-16 17:36, John Whelan wrote:

This approach I like.  Name:expanded perhaps?

To go back to earlier ideas.

Expanding the name sounds sensible but unfortunately the street signs are posted with the abbreviation and some local mappers have a what is on the sign goes in the map mentality.  Also we have had discussions about street names in Canada before and the decision was what the municipality declares the street name is correct.  That was to do with either "rue Sparks" or should it be "Rue Sparks" in Quebec it would be one way but in Ontario the other.

Thoughts

Thanks John 

Colin Smale wrote on 2019-07-16 11:30 AM:

On 2019-07-16 16:54, John Whelan wrote:

One or two are problematic usually as the street name is an abbreviation.    For example 1e Avenue in French meaning First Avenue.

Any suggestions on how these should be handled?  This particular application is aimed at partially sighted people but I feel we should be able to come up with a generic solution.

Some kind of phonetic (IPA?) representation would be the ultimate generic solution. Here in NL (and I guess in many other countries) there are street names which are partially or entirely in other languages, and the expectation is that they are pronounced as such. For example, Boeing Avenue would sound completely weird if it were pronounced according to Dutch rules. Truly multi-lingual countries like Belgium and Switzerland should be able to make use of name:XX.

If we had name:XX:ipa=* we would have a place to put it, but the client app would need to have a way of turning that into sounds. It will only be needed if the pronunciation deviates from the standard for the language in question, but speech synthesisers are never perfect and often make mistakes....

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/264239/is-there-any-online-tool-to-read-pronounce-ipa-and-apa-written-words

Of course we will also need a way of entering IPA symbols....




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Re: handling street names in speech

Stefan Baebler
I think IPA (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet ) would address that problem, but that would require many more tags, which are not trivial for mappers to write.

Br,
Štefan


V tor., 16. jul. 2019 17:55 je oseba Colin Smale <[hidden email]> napisala:

The reason for wanting to expand abbreviations in OSM is surely to avoid ambiguity, not specifically to aid pronunciation or recognition. In the case of "1e ..." in a certain language context, would that not be unambiguous? Would a speech synthesiser not know how it should be spoken in its working language?

Slight digression: The question does arise of which rules to use to pronounce foreign names. If I am in Warsaw for example and my satnav started pronouncing street names in pure Polish I might not recognise any of them (apologies to any Poles in the audience). But how would it speak such that I would recognise it, if I was looking for a string with loads of Ws and Zs that means nothing to me? Use English rules to pronounce a Polish word?

On the other hand, if I was in Paris, I would expect it to use French rules, because I understand French and using English rules would sound weird although it might well give a lot of laughs...

 


On 2019-07-16 17:36, John Whelan wrote:

This approach I like.  Name:expanded perhaps?

To go back to earlier ideas.

Expanding the name sounds sensible but unfortunately the street signs are posted with the abbreviation and some local mappers have a what is on the sign goes in the map mentality.  Also we have had discussions about street names in Canada before and the decision was what the municipality declares the street name is correct.  That was to do with either "rue Sparks" or should it be "Rue Sparks" in Quebec it would be one way but in Ontario the other.

Thoughts

Thanks John 

Colin Smale wrote on 2019-07-16 11:30 AM:

On 2019-07-16 16:54, John Whelan wrote:

One or two are problematic usually as the street name is an abbreviation.    For example 1e Avenue in French meaning First Avenue.

Any suggestions on how these should be handled?  This particular application is aimed at partially sighted people but I feel we should be able to come up with a generic solution.

Some kind of phonetic (IPA?) representation would be the ultimate generic solution. Here in NL (and I guess in many other countries) there are street names which are partially or entirely in other languages, and the expectation is that they are pronounced as such. For example, Boeing Avenue would sound completely weird if it were pronounced according to Dutch rules. Truly multi-lingual countries like Belgium and Switzerland should be able to make use of name:XX.

If we had name:XX:ipa=* we would have a place to put it, but the client app would need to have a way of turning that into sounds. It will only be needed if the pronunciation deviates from the standard for the language in question, but speech synthesisers are never perfect and often make mistakes....

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/264239/is-there-any-online-tool-to-read-pronounce-ipa-and-apa-written-words

Of course we will also need a way of entering IPA symbols....




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Re: handling street names in speech

Nuno Caldeira
also on the the standard mapping convetions, its mentioned in bold :

A terça, 16/07/2019, 18:05, Stefan Baebler <[hidden email]> escreveu:
I think IPA (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet ) would address that problem, but that would require many more tags, which are not trivial for mappers to write.

Br,
Štefan


V tor., 16. jul. 2019 17:55 je oseba Colin Smale <[hidden email]> napisala:

The reason for wanting to expand abbreviations in OSM is surely to avoid ambiguity, not specifically to aid pronunciation or recognition. In the case of "1e ..." in a certain language context, would that not be unambiguous? Would a speech synthesiser not know how it should be spoken in its working language?

Slight digression: The question does arise of which rules to use to pronounce foreign names. If I am in Warsaw for example and my satnav started pronouncing street names in pure Polish I might not recognise any of them (apologies to any Poles in the audience). But how would it speak such that I would recognise it, if I was looking for a string with loads of Ws and Zs that means nothing to me? Use English rules to pronounce a Polish word?

On the other hand, if I was in Paris, I would expect it to use French rules, because I understand French and using English rules would sound weird although it might well give a lot of laughs...

 


On 2019-07-16 17:36, John Whelan wrote:

This approach I like.  Name:expanded perhaps?

To go back to earlier ideas.

Expanding the name sounds sensible but unfortunately the street signs are posted with the abbreviation and some local mappers have a what is on the sign goes in the map mentality.  Also we have had discussions about street names in Canada before and the decision was what the municipality declares the street name is correct.  That was to do with either "rue Sparks" or should it be "Rue Sparks" in Quebec it would be one way but in Ontario the other.

Thoughts

Thanks John 

Colin Smale wrote on 2019-07-16 11:30 AM:

On 2019-07-16 16:54, John Whelan wrote:

One or two are problematic usually as the street name is an abbreviation.    For example 1e Avenue in French meaning First Avenue.

Any suggestions on how these should be handled?  This particular application is aimed at partially sighted people but I feel we should be able to come up with a generic solution.

Some kind of phonetic (IPA?) representation would be the ultimate generic solution. Here in NL (and I guess in many other countries) there are street names which are partially or entirely in other languages, and the expectation is that they are pronounced as such. For example, Boeing Avenue would sound completely weird if it were pronounced according to Dutch rules. Truly multi-lingual countries like Belgium and Switzerland should be able to make use of name:XX.

If we had name:XX:ipa=* we would have a place to put it, but the client app would need to have a way of turning that into sounds. It will only be needed if the pronunciation deviates from the standard for the language in question, but speech synthesisers are never perfect and often make mistakes....

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/264239/is-there-any-online-tool-to-read-pronounce-ipa-and-apa-written-words

Of course we will also need a way of entering IPA symbols....




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Re: handling street names in speech

Jo-2
When using OsmAnd in the streets of Brussels, it doesn't matter what the language is set to, the French - Dutch combo is consistently pronounced wrongly.

IPA would indeed solve that.

Editor support would be very welcome to enter the proper characters and to listen to the result, both in JOSM and iD. And maybe even to help mappers get started with the most likely pronunciation for a given language.

It would need to be used for ALL tags that contain names, not only the ones that have 'deviant' pronunciation. In a mutlilingual system it's almost impossible to define what is and what isn't 'deviating', as the pronunciation rules are different across almost all languages.

For JOSM, should I propose this as GSoC project for next summer, or would it not be that hard to implement by our overworked core developers? Or would it make sense I 
give it a go myself?

Polyglot

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 7:10 PM Nuno Caldeira <[hidden email]> wrote:
also on the the standard mapping convetions, its mentioned in bold :

A terça, 16/07/2019, 18:05, Stefan Baebler <[hidden email]> escreveu:
I think IPA (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet ) would address that problem, but that would require many more tags, which are not trivial for mappers to write.

Br,
Štefan


V tor., 16. jul. 2019 17:55 je oseba Colin Smale <[hidden email]> napisala:

The reason for wanting to expand abbreviations in OSM is surely to avoid ambiguity, not specifically to aid pronunciation or recognition. In the case of "1e ..." in a certain language context, would that not be unambiguous? Would a speech synthesiser not know how it should be spoken in its working language?

Slight digression: The question does arise of which rules to use to pronounce foreign names. If I am in Warsaw for example and my satnav started pronouncing street names in pure Polish I might not recognise any of them (apologies to any Poles in the audience). But how would it speak such that I would recognise it, if I was looking for a string with loads of Ws and Zs that means nothing to me? Use English rules to pronounce a Polish word?

On the other hand, if I was in Paris, I would expect it to use French rules, because I understand French and using English rules would sound weird although it might well give a lot of laughs...

 


On 2019-07-16 17:36, John Whelan wrote:

This approach I like.  Name:expanded perhaps?

To go back to earlier ideas.

Expanding the name sounds sensible but unfortunately the street signs are posted with the abbreviation and some local mappers have a what is on the sign goes in the map mentality.  Also we have had discussions about street names in Canada before and the decision was what the municipality declares the street name is correct.  That was to do with either "rue Sparks" or should it be "Rue Sparks" in Quebec it would be one way but in Ontario the other.

Thoughts

Thanks John 

Colin Smale wrote on 2019-07-16 11:30 AM:

On 2019-07-16 16:54, John Whelan wrote:

One or two are problematic usually as the street name is an abbreviation.    For example 1e Avenue in French meaning First Avenue.

Any suggestions on how these should be handled?  This particular application is aimed at partially sighted people but I feel we should be able to come up with a generic solution.

Some kind of phonetic (IPA?) representation would be the ultimate generic solution. Here in NL (and I guess in many other countries) there are street names which are partially or entirely in other languages, and the expectation is that they are pronounced as such. For example, Boeing Avenue would sound completely weird if it were pronounced according to Dutch rules. Truly multi-lingual countries like Belgium and Switzerland should be able to make use of name:XX.

If we had name:XX:ipa=* we would have a place to put it, but the client app would need to have a way of turning that into sounds. It will only be needed if the pronunciation deviates from the standard for the language in question, but speech synthesisers are never perfect and often make mistakes....

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/264239/is-there-any-online-tool-to-read-pronounce-ipa-and-apa-written-words

Of course we will also need a way of entering IPA symbols....




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Re: handling street names in speech

Colin Smale
In reply to this post by Nuno Caldeira

On 2019-07-16 19:07, Nuno Caldeira wrote:

also on the the standard mapping convetions, its mentioned in bold :

 

But exceptions are made in some cases, including where the signage uses the abbreviation:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Abbreviation_.28don.27t_do_it.29


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Re: handling street names in speech

Jo-2
If we were to make such exceptions, we would get into trouble really fast, as some streets are signed differently on one end and on the other, depending how big the street sign is, or in what period it was put there.

Expanding abbreviations is the norm. I try to do it even for first and middle names of people, when the street is named after a person. That only works if it's possible to find it somewhere, of course.

Polyglot

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 7:40 PM Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 2019-07-16 19:07, Nuno Caldeira wrote:

also on the the standard mapping convetions, its mentioned in bold :

 

But exceptions are made in some cases, including where the signage uses the abbreviation:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Abbreviation_.28don.27t_do_it.29

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Re: handling street names in speech

Colin Smale

On 2019-07-16 19:52, Jo wrote:

If we were to make such exceptions, we would get into trouble really fast, as some streets are signed differently on one end and on the other, depending how big the street sign is, or in what period it was put there.
 
Don't shoot the messenger, I didn't write the wiki!
 
 
Expanding abbreviations is the norm. I try to do it even for first and middle names of people, when the street is named after a person. That only works if it's possible to find it somewhere, of course.
 
Apparently not everyone agrees with you, otherwise those exceptions would not be noted in the wiki. Are you recommending that the exceptions be removed from the wiki?
 
 
Polyglot

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 7:40 PM Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 2019-07-16 19:07, Nuno Caldeira wrote:

also on the the standard mapping convetions, its mentioned in bold :

But exceptions are made in some cases, including where the signage uses the abbreviation:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Abbreviation_.28don.27t_do_it.29

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Re: handling street names in speech

Greg Troxel-2
In reply to this post by john whelan-2
John Whelan <[hidden email]> writes:

> One or two are problematic usually as the street name is an
> abbreviation.    For example 1e Avenue in French meaning First Avenue.
>
> Any suggestions on how these should be handled?  This particular
> application is aimed at partially sighted people but I feel we should
> be able to come up with a generic solution.

Two comments:

  osm norms are to expand abbreviations, as I understand it.  So that
  should be fixed first

  Even after that, we have ref tags, and there is often a road whose ref
  is something like "CT 2", "US 1", or "I 95".  I don't really think
  this should be expanded in the database.  Instead, what's needed is a
  table in the application, perhaps centrally maintained in OSM, of how
  to pronounce standardize ref abbreviations.  Putting phonetics of
  "connecticut" on all use of CT or the expanded name is not reasonable.


But I agree this needs help.  I get told to turn on "Court 2" and "Ma
2".  Luckily I understand this by now and it actually works ok.  But it
does need fixing.


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Re: handling street names in speech

Andrew Errington
I think this is a rendering issue (i.e. rendering speech instead of graphics) and as such does not belong in OSM.

The work to convert an arbitrary string into speech belongs in the TTS engine.

If we start putting IPA strings in OSM then we will start getting arguments about the "correct" pronunciation. At the very least it is tagging for the renderer, which we should avoid.

IMHO, of course.

Andrew

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 09:20 Greg Troxel <[hidden email]> wrote:
John Whelan <[hidden email]> writes:

> One or two are problematic usually as the street name is an
> abbreviation.    For example 1e Avenue in French meaning First Avenue.
>
> Any suggestions on how these should be handled?  This particular
> application is aimed at partially sighted people but I feel we should
> be able to come up with a generic solution.

Two comments:

  osm norms are to expand abbreviations, as I understand it.  So that
  should be fixed first

  Even after that, we have ref tags, and there is often a road whose ref
  is something like "CT 2", "US 1", or "I 95".  I don't really think
  this should be expanded in the database.  Instead, what's needed is a
  table in the application, perhaps centrally maintained in OSM, of how
  to pronounce standardize ref abbreviations.  Putting phonetics of
  "connecticut" on all use of CT or the expanded name is not reasonable.


But I agree this needs help.  I get told to turn on "Court 2" and "Ma
2".  Luckily I understand this by now and it actually works ok.  But it
does need fixing.


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Re: handling street names in speech

Jo-2
Mapping for the renderer means: adding factually wrong data such that it renders the way the mapper wants to see it getting rendered (on the standard rendering).

That's not what adding IPA strings would do. True, there are multiple ways to pronounce certain words.

Unfortunately TTS is not perfect and it never will be, for one thing because it's often difficult to decide with TTS (which language) to use for each word in a name string.

If OsmAND were to support the use of IPA, then I would be motivated to transcribe all Brussels's street names in Dutch and French. Standard common denominator Dutch and French. It would be a lot nicer to listen to than the letters A U X spelled separately in Dutch, instead of simply 'O', what would be the French pronunciation of those 3 letters combined. Some of the terms in those street names are actually English names. It's simply impossible for TTS set to Dutch or French to get those right.

IPA would definitely solve that annoyance.

Polyglot

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 12:58 AM Andrew Errington <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think this is a rendering issue (i.e. rendering speech instead of graphics) and as such does not belong in OSM.

The work to convert an arbitrary string into speech belongs in the TTS engine.

If we start putting IPA strings in OSM then we will start getting arguments about the "correct" pronunciation. At the very least it is tagging for the renderer, which we should avoid.

IMHO, of course.

Andrew

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 09:20 Greg Troxel <[hidden email]> wrote:
John Whelan <[hidden email]> writes:

> One or two are problematic usually as the street name is an
> abbreviation.    For example 1e Avenue in French meaning First Avenue.
>
> Any suggestions on how these should be handled?  This particular
> application is aimed at partially sighted people but I feel we should
> be able to come up with a generic solution.

Two comments:

  osm norms are to expand abbreviations, as I understand it.  So that
  should be fixed first

  Even after that, we have ref tags, and there is often a road whose ref
  is something like "CT 2", "US 1", or "I 95".  I don't really think
  this should be expanded in the database.  Instead, what's needed is a
  table in the application, perhaps centrally maintained in OSM, of how
  to pronounce standardize ref abbreviations.  Putting phonetics of
  "connecticut" on all use of CT or the expanded name is not reasonable.


But I agree this needs help.  I get told to turn on "Court 2" and "Ma
2".  Luckily I understand this by now and it actually works ok.  But it
does need fixing.


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Re: handling street names in speech

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Colin Smale


sent from a phone

> On 16. Jul 2019, at 19:38, Colin Smale <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> But exceptions are made in some cases, including where the signage uses the abbreviation:


Sometimes I see edit wars where people modify back and forth the value of the name tag to expand and reintroduce abbreviations. Do not do it. Add both, particularly add the common name and the name as signposted, and if different, the official name.

While it may usually seem trivial for a local to expand an abbreviation, it often isn’t for strangers and people speaking a different language.

Rather than thinking about rules to expand abbreviations we should look at rules how to create them when needed (both isn’t trivial, but the latter at least will not have to bother with disambiguation).

Even if you knew the language for the name (which typically is not the case with “name”, where you can only guess, or compare to a dictionary), there may be several alternatives for expanding an abbreviation. There are good reasons why we discouraged using abbreviations from the beginning.

Cheers Martin




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Re: handling street names in speech

dieterdreist
In reply to this post by Jo-2


sent from a phone

> On 16. Jul 2019, at 19:52, Jo <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> If we were to make such exceptions, we would get into trouble really fast, as some streets are signed differently on one end and on the other, depending how big the street sign is, or in what period it was put there


yes, signed names would apply primarily to the street sign, they are only punctually observable.


Cheers Martin
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Re: handling street names in speech

Maarten Deen
In reply to this post by Jo-2
On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 12:58 AM Andrew Errington <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I think this is a rendering issue (i.e. rendering speech instead of
> graphics) and as such does not belong in OSM.
>
> The work to convert an arbitrary string into speech belongs in the
> TTS engine.
>
> If we start putting IPA strings in OSM then we will start getting
> arguments about the "correct" pronunciation. At the very least it is
> tagging for the renderer, which we should avoid.

And if not, then you're at the will of the TTS engine. There are words
that are pronounced differently depending on their meaning. Some example
from the English language, I'm sure other languages have examples too:
a bow - to bow (second sounds more like baw)
he does things - the does do things (short o, long o)
A minute part of a minute
wind (is blowing) - wind (the clock)

And then we haven't even touched the problem on which syllable to put
emphasis.

All these things make it impossible for a TTS engine to know what
pronunciation is correct, except when you lay it down for each word. We
had a new operator for the public transport in my neighborhood and they
used a TTS engine to generate the stop information. It was just
horrible. Incorrect pronunciation, incorrect emphasis.

The OsmAND TTS also does funny things, there is a John F. Kennedystreet
in my town. The TTS pauses at the dot. Obviously it thinks the sentence
ends there. But it doesn't. It's just an abbreviation. And no, this is
not an abbreviation like St. or Ave. that you would write out fully. The
street name is not John Fitzgerald Kennedystreet.

IMHO an IPA string would be a welcome and usefull addition to OSM.
Could you also not use it for transliterations?

Regards,
Maarten

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