highway=residential in residential estates considered harmful?

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highway=residential in residential estates considered harmful?

Damjan Jovanovic
Hi

According to GeoFabrik (View: highways), a large number of roads in JHB are missing street names. However most of these are highway=residential roads in residential estates / townhouse complexes, that don't have names anyway.

Should we be using highway=service instead, inside residential estates?

What about large estates that do have named streets? Should highway=service roads be named or should we use a different highway type?

Thank you
Damjan


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Re: highway=residential in residential estates considered harmful?

Glen Wilson-2
imo residential describes a street inside a  housing estate perfectly. You could use highway=living_street instead but only if the tag truly applies.

I wouldn't suggest any changes just because a validator says so.  Just because a street has no name doesn't make it invalid.

Some streets just don't have names. I live in such a street and it's definitely highway=residential and it has no name (afaik).

2c//Tinshack

On Sat, 29 Sep 2018, 10:07 Damjan Jovanovic <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi

According to GeoFabrik (View: highways), a large number of roads in JHB are missing street names. However most of these are highway=residential roads in residential estates / townhouse complexes, that don't have names anyway.

Should we be using highway=service instead, inside residential estates?

What about large estates that do have named streets? Should highway=service roads be named or should we use a different highway type?

Thank you
Damjan

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Re: highway=residential in residential estates considered harmful?

Kieron Thwaites
In reply to this post by Damjan Jovanovic
Depending on the purpose of the road within the housing estate, any of highway=residential, highway=living_street or highway=service may be appropriate.  It depends on what the road is used for: I tend to go with highway=residential by default, highway=living_street in estates where I know that the road is considered a shared pedestrian/car space (e.g. within the estate, pedestrians are considered to have equal or higher right of way to vehicles) and highway=service for things like delivery access roads.  Local knowledge of the estate is essential to know which to go for.

As an example, see Wilderness Garden Estate in Wilderness.  I used to go to the neighbouring Wilderness Dunes on holiday, and I know from my surveys that a mix of highway=living_street and highway=service is appropriate there.

It's perfectly acceptable for a road to be unnamed (to go back to my example, the roads in Wilderness Dunes have no names), and it's perfectly acceptable for a service road to be named if there is a sign on the ground indicating such a name.  If the road in question is indeed unnamed, consider use of the noname=* key which should take care of validation: note that noname=* should only be used in cases where it has been verified that there is genuinely no name, and that noname=* and name=* should be omitted entirely if the name is unknown (which is the point of those validation messages in the first place).

On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 at 20:07, Damjan Jovanovic <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi

According to GeoFabrik (View: highways), a large number of roads in JHB are missing street names. However most of these are highway=residential roads in residential estates / townhouse complexes, that don't have names anyway.

Should we be using highway=service instead, inside residential estates?

What about large estates that do have named streets? Should highway=service roads be named or should we use a different highway type?

Thank you
Damjan

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Re: highway=residential in residential estates considered harmful?

Damjan Jovanovic
In reply to this post by Glen Wilson-2
I think every public road has a name. In the Ethekwini munipality (ie. Durban), where street names were imported from the municipal data, you can see some roads in Phoenix have names like "Street 123456", and I know one of those later got renamed to "Silverbrook Crescent."

If your road doesn't have a name, please confirm that with your municipality and let us know.

On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 10:22 AM Glen Wilson <[hidden email]> wrote:
imo residential describes a street inside a  housing estate perfectly. You could use highway=living_street instead but only if the tag truly applies.

I wouldn't suggest any changes just because a validator says so.  Just because a street has no name doesn't make it invalid.

Some streets just don't have names. I live in such a street and it's definitely highway=residential and it has no name (afaik).

2c//Tinshack

On Sat, 29 Sep 2018, 10:07 Damjan Jovanovic <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi

According to GeoFabrik (View: highways), a large number of roads in JHB are missing street names. However most of these are highway=residential roads in residential estates / townhouse complexes, that don't have names anyway.

Should we be using highway=service instead, inside residential estates?

What about large estates that do have named streets? Should highway=service roads be named or should we use a different highway type?

Thank you
Damjan

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Re: highway=residential in residential estates considered harmful?

Damjan Jovanovic
In reply to this post by Kieron Thwaites
came to the opposite conclusion: that highway=residential should only be for public roads, maintained by the municipality, while highway=service is for private roads. Roads in (at least some) office parks, eg. the Dimension Data campus, are all highway=service already (https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/-26.04178/28.02418).

I doubt we will ever complete mapping of roads inside secured residential estates, and without a way to distinguish public and private roads, we have no way to calculate the naming completeness of public roads.

Also highway=living_street seems to be legally enshrined in some countries. We are not on that list, so I am not sure how valid it is here: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dliving_street


On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 10:31 AM Kieron Thwaites <[hidden email]> wrote:
Depending on the purpose of the road within the housing estate, any of highway=residential, highway=living_street or highway=service may be appropriate.  It depends on what the road is used for: I tend to go with highway=residential by default, highway=living_street in estates where I know that the road is considered a shared pedestrian/car space (e.g. within the estate, pedestrians are considered to have equal or higher right of way to vehicles) and highway=service for things like delivery access roads.  Local knowledge of the estate is essential to know which to go for.

As an example, see Wilderness Garden Estate in Wilderness.  I used to go to the neighbouring Wilderness Dunes on holiday, and I know from my surveys that a mix of highway=living_street and highway=service is appropriate there.

It's perfectly acceptable for a road to be unnamed (to go back to my example, the roads in Wilderness Dunes have no names), and it's perfectly acceptable for a service road to be named if there is a sign on the ground indicating such a name.  If the road in question is indeed unnamed, consider use of the noname=* key which should take care of validation: note that noname=* should only be used in cases where it has been verified that there is genuinely no name, and that noname=* and name=* should be omitted entirely if the name is unknown (which is the point of those validation messages in the first place).

On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 at 20:07, Damjan Jovanovic <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi

According to GeoFabrik (View: highways), a large number of roads in JHB are missing street names. However most of these are highway=residential roads in residential estates / townhouse complexes, that don't have names anyway.

Should we be using highway=service instead, inside residential estates?

What about large estates that do have named streets? Should highway=service roads be named or should we use a different highway type?

Thank you
Damjan

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